its harder for marines to win because it takes more skill now. people complain about turret farms and say that marines win with them to much... well thats only because the alien team is stupid. i tried this so called unbeatable turret famrs and they all got taking out in about 2 minutes by 3 onos's.
but like i said, marines takles more skill now i rekon.
Yeah marines take a lot more skill. A LOT more. But it doesn't end there. Not only do you need some kind of SAS-level marines but you need bad alien players. You need a bad alien team. Because a substandard alien team will still win thanks to the actions of a few.
The aliens were just brutal, the marines do not have a look in at all. I tried marine expansion at pretty much the fastest rate possible (minimal base defence, 1 IP) and capped 4 res nodes, and during a 5th that squad got eaten. So then I decided shotgun rush on hive, it failed as the aliens responded too quickly, the whole team was rushing the marines all the way to the hive. One maybe two marines actually got there. Anyhows the point is it was definately not 'playing 1.04' tactics.
Another point people seem to be forgetting is you cant 'hunt' good gorges. As MC 1st is the CoFR norm any gorges have celer/adren and there are at least two together at all times. 2 decent gorges can take on 3 marines quite easily.
I also noticed how 2-3 good aliens on a side 'win' the game, I frequently saw 1 skulk taking out 5 marines, these people can improve the alien side immensely as they get res and can get stuff alot quicker.
Last night The_Spectre beat my record and put up the second hive at 2:58 (map was ns_lost). Old record was 3:03 on ns_eclipse. We should have started the third hive at 5:59 but due to some miscommunication it got started a full minute later, at 7:00. Sloppy sloppy. Now at 10:00 we have lvl 3 M/D/S and 3 hives. What do the Marines have? We don't know, we killed them all before hive #3 was up.
Playing Alien now is more about "let's see if we can X" where X is some silly record like above or some silly task like winning without RT's or upgrades.
As a result of Aliens taking it less and less seriosuly, Marines trying harder and harder and some serious stackage on the Marine team, Marines are winning more now. Maybe as much as 1:5 or 1:4. That could easily be reduced to 1:100 with a bit of effort though.
It's good to see so many people agree when we talk about *good* and *experienced* Aliens. Sooner or later the people that claim Marines win will realise that they are playing not only substandard but abysmally poor Aliens, like in the example above with the Fades and no resources capped.
You're being a tad extreme... sure you could get 1:100 ratios but what's the fun in skill stacking?
However, it's obvious there's something wrong when the marines need a very experienced commander if they want to have any chance of winning against an average alien team. Too much organisation and direction is needed on the marine team, when a single alien can wreak havoc, but the major problem is that rushing early on is basically the only way to win. Sure it brings the games down to around the 15min mark, but it's almost impossible to get any real tech (unless the game is already won by the marines) because all the resources go into the fast expansion and rushing.
If the marines go into defensive mode after they've claimed half the map so they can tech up, they also have to fortify their locations, and this takes a lot of res and thus time.... and the aliens just pool their resources... eventually out comes a few Onos, and quite frankly if they know what they're doing the marines normally have no chance.
Mainly it comes down to a huge reliance on the commander and the marine's abilitys to aim and group together, which is good because it's a challenge, but bad because you have to remember the majority of the players are playing on pubs....
For aliens it comes down to having a few good players... usually.
<!--QuoteBegin--=US-cobra-V=+Aug 13 2003, 04:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (=US-cobra-V= @ Aug 13 2003, 04:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->devour is a countermeasure for HA <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don?t see how its a counter. You can kill the HA almost as fast normally.
If you going to use it the defense that it?s a counter, what is the counter for devour?
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin--Souleron+Aug 13 2003, 11:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Souleron @ Aug 13 2003, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--=US-cobra-V=+Aug 13 2003, 04:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (=US-cobra-V= @ Aug 13 2003, 04:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->devour is a countermeasure for HA <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don?t see how its a counter. You can kill the HA almost as fast normally.
If you going to use it the defense that it?s a counter, what is the counter for devour? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Jetpack and/or bind ctrl kill.
I think one interesting statistic would be the average game time for a marine win. (Even against poor aliens) it seems to me that by the time aliens have 3 hives + chambers (including 2-3 fades and 1-2 onii) marines will have done very well to have full upgrades, adv arm, MT but not even protolab. Most of the time I see lvl 2 upg's and adv arm. I'd say to get full tech usually takes about 30mins for marines. And for a marine win about 45 min.
Aliens consistantly full tech in 15 mins and under.
I've been in a simular game, and I was on the Alien team. You see, the problem is the commander went for HA. We went for the counter, the Onos. The Onos will eat your HA and be cost effective while doing it. You should of got Jetpacks.
Now correct me If im wrong but I heard a rumour on here that there will A new powerful gun designed to kill onos like the Onos Rifle or some freaky thing like that? Is this true or just the lies of a demented 15 yr old hopped up on caffine
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now correct me If im wrong but I heard a rumour on here that there will A new powerful gun designed to kill onos like the Onos Rifle or some freaky thing like that? Is this true or just the lies of a demented 15 yr old hopped up on caffine <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, certainly no-one else has heard of this and the devs would have to be stoned, drunk, high and possibly insane to implement such a thing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You see, the problem is the commander went for HA. We went for the counter, the Onos. The Onos will eat your HA and be cost effective while doing it. You should of got Jetpacks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, then the aliens could have countered with spores, spikes, OC spam, (web or acid rocket at 3 hives, which the aliens should be able to reach) or even leaping skulks or blinking Fades. Jetpacks might counter oni, but they're not as powerful a force as HA can be. That said, oni are also not a hard counter to HA. If the marines have by some miracle managed to tech to lvl 3 guns AND hand out hmgs/gls to that HA squad then oni without charge won't even get close. Combine a lerk and a fade with a gorge or 2....thats a differant matter
But say the marines had gone for jetpacks AND HA. The aliens can counter both just as easily, if not more so, as a combination. Using combined arms tactics sounds great in thinking, but in the feild it can easily fall apart. An onos shows up? Well get the jpers to take it out. Except there's 2 lerks there. Well get the HA to take them out. Except there's an onos there....
Your average com won't go for JPs over HA because the investment isn't worth it. 35 research and 15 equip when you can get HA for 40 & 20? Coms in most 2.0 games are hard pressed for res: they have to chose the option that will net them the largest possible gain. HA simply comes out in front; jetpacks are a risky investment at best and arn't as useful in assault purposes.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
Jetpacks are the counter to Onos but o chambers gorges lerks low ceilings etc. are the counter to Jetpacks making them impractical to actually use as an alternative to HA.
Every marine win I've seen ended the game before we even had HA. It's kinda sad that the marine way to win is to rush all the hives. However a lot of servers are using the auto-electrify-all-buildings MOD, which makes being a Skulk pretty bad. We still won as Aliens, though.
<!--QuoteBegin--Minstrel Knight+Aug 13 2003, 07:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Aug 13 2003, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jetpacks are the counter to Onos but o chambers gorges lerks low ceilings etc. are the counter to Jetpacks making them impractical to actually use as an alternative to HA. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All of those things besides OCs are the counter to bad JPers - give a good jetpack a shotgun and see how he handles lerks and gorges. OCs remain effective against jetpacks, but a good jetpacker can usually avoid any OC problems.
A good jetpacker with a shotgun is deadly to just about any alien critter, though obviously isn't enough to take on the entire army at once as an HA does, he's more of a tactical fighter than a grunt.
I agree that aliens wipe the floor with marines right now. Even games where the marines make some pretty decisive tactical victories, it is just too hard to finish things off.
I do feel that there's a logical fallacy in writing off the early marine rush (with or without shotguns) as cheap and to be ignored. It is the only counter to unchecked alien expansion. If comms consistently went for the early rush, aliens would have to reign in their aggressive expansion.
I think that NS 2.0 would have a good balance if this process worked itself out. Sure it would lead to a lot of fast, cheap Marine victories for a while, but how is that worse than long, cheap Alien victories? A strategic balance would be made in time.
But there are other roads to balance, and I think that a patch which slows hive development would do a lot. I think that 45-50 res would be sufficient to slow the alien tech tree without crippling the team. Some semi-public testing would help with this.
Remember, Onos aren't that dangerous when pitted against what Marines could produce for that investment of time/resources. Onos with redemption, cloak, and celerity/adrenaline are.
I've actually tried a few rushes, in a hope that the aliens will be more careful. BUT the've always failed.
Since a skulk > marine then and they are faster then as soon as the rush is noticed (often reported by the first skulk you encounter) and gorges are also better.
Part of the problem is that in a 10v10 game the Marines will only have 9 people actually fighting + their comm. Add to that the fact that 1 alien>1 marine and Marines can't go out of their base to do anything because they CAN'T FIGHT.
Simply having a commander is supposed to make up for these shortcomings with "teamwork". Well, the aliens have hive sight and can talk to each other as well, so the Marines don't actually have a big advantage.
I've won games with vanilla marines. It just depends on skill. The alien team did NOT suck. Nor did the marines. (This was on The Lunix Monster, many forum trolls from here play there) And Well, My team was quick, listened, and made my job easy. No shotties, no goodies. They ran in, got a pg up, seiged away. GG. So its not impossible. NS2.0 is still relatively new. Stone brings up a good point though. Marine wins are too few and far between. However, if you play 2.01b you may feel differently. Its a lot easier for marines to expand.
Makes you think doesnt it? the real reason that most people hate Natural-Selection vrs 2 is because if your a marine and your a good player and you try your hardest giving everything that you have and doing a good job... its still not enough you HAVE to really on your teammates and comm. Now aliens dont have that problem as alien you can make the difference all you need is to get those few res towers up easily enough and you can become and onos and beat the **** out a squad of Diet-Good Marines <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> and if you and your alien teammates hook up and work with EVEN A QUARTER of the increased teamwork i've seen by marines since this new patch then its all over for the marines.
I try my best on the marines, since as I've said, aliens isn't any fun for me anymore. It simply isn't a challenge on the aliens. IMHO, a challenge makes a game fun, therefore, I play as marines.
I often wander around solo as a marine, setting up vital phase gates to siege points while the rest of my team puts up a really big distraction elsewhere. Sometimes, I get a little backup because 1 or 2 fellow rines follow me. That's good.
That's one of the reasons why my team won a few games last night. We managed to lockdown 1 hive, then blow the other one to bits with well-placed sieges and phase gates. Then, the aliens got bitchy and F4ed. GG.
Comments
but like i said, marines takles more skill now i rekon.
The aliens were just brutal, the marines do not have a look in at all. I tried marine expansion at pretty much the fastest rate possible (minimal base defence, 1 IP) and capped 4 res nodes, and during a 5th that squad got eaten. So then I decided shotgun rush on hive, it failed as the aliens responded too quickly, the whole team was rushing the marines all the way to the hive. One maybe two marines actually got there. Anyhows the point is it was definately not 'playing 1.04' tactics.
Another point people seem to be forgetting is you cant 'hunt' good gorges. As MC 1st is the CoFR norm any gorges have celer/adren and there are at least two together at all times. 2 decent gorges can take on 3 marines quite easily.
I also noticed how 2-3 good aliens on a side 'win' the game, I frequently saw 1 skulk taking out 5 marines, these people can improve the alien side immensely as they get res and can get stuff alot quicker.
Playing Alien now is more about "let's see if we can X" where X is some silly record like above or some silly task like winning without RT's or upgrades.
As a result of Aliens taking it less and less seriosuly, Marines trying harder and harder and some serious stackage on the Marine team, Marines are winning more now. Maybe as much as 1:5 or 1:4. That could easily be reduced to 1:100 with a bit of effort though.
It's good to see so many people agree when we talk about *good* and *experienced* Aliens. Sooner or later the people that claim Marines win will realise that they are playing not only substandard but abysmally poor Aliens, like in the example above with the Fades and no resources capped.
However, it's obvious there's something wrong when the marines need a very experienced commander if they want to have any chance of winning against an average alien team. Too much organisation and direction is needed on the marine team, when a single alien can wreak havoc, but the major problem is that rushing early on is basically the only way to win. Sure it brings the games down to around the 15min mark, but it's almost impossible to get any real tech (unless the game is already won by the marines) because all the resources go into the fast expansion and rushing.
If the marines go into defensive mode after they've claimed half the map so they can tech up, they also have to fortify their locations, and this takes a lot of res and thus time.... and the aliens just pool their resources... eventually out comes a few Onos, and quite frankly if they know what they're doing the marines normally have no chance.
Mainly it comes down to a huge reliance on the commander and the marine's abilitys to aim and group together, which is good because it's a challenge, but bad because you have to remember the majority of the players are playing on pubs....
For aliens it comes down to having a few good players... usually.
I don?t see how its a counter. You can kill the HA almost as fast normally.
If you going to use it the defense that it?s a counter, what is the counter for devour?
I don?t see how its a counter. You can kill the HA almost as fast normally.
If you going to use it the defense that it?s a counter, what is the counter for devour? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jetpack and/or bind ctrl kill.
Aliens consistantly full tech in 15 mins and under.
Um, certainly no-one else has heard of this and the devs would have to be stoned, drunk, high and possibly insane to implement such a thing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You see, the problem is the commander went for HA. We went for the counter, the Onos. The Onos will eat your HA and be cost effective while doing it. You should of got Jetpacks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, then the aliens could have countered with spores, spikes, OC spam, (web or acid rocket at 3 hives, which the aliens should be able to reach) or even leaping skulks or blinking Fades. Jetpacks might counter oni, but they're not as powerful a force as HA can be. That said, oni are also not a hard counter to HA. If the marines have by some miracle managed to tech to lvl 3 guns AND hand out hmgs/gls to that HA squad then oni without charge won't even get close. Combine a lerk and a fade with a gorge or 2....thats a differant matter
But say the marines had gone for jetpacks AND HA. The aliens can counter both just as easily, if not more so, as a combination. Using combined arms tactics sounds great in thinking, but in the feild it can easily fall apart. An onos shows up? Well get the jpers to take it out. Except there's 2 lerks there. Well get the HA to take them out. Except there's an onos there....
Your average com won't go for JPs over HA because the investment isn't worth it. 35 research and 15 equip when you can get HA for 40 & 20? Coms in most 2.0 games are hard pressed for res: they have to chose the option that will net them the largest possible gain. HA simply comes out in front; jetpacks are a risky investment at best and arn't as useful in assault purposes.
All of those things besides OCs are the counter to bad JPers - give a good jetpack a shotgun and see how he handles lerks and gorges. OCs remain effective against jetpacks, but a good jetpacker can usually avoid any OC problems.
A good jetpacker with a shotgun is deadly to just about any alien critter, though obviously isn't enough to take on the entire army at once as an HA does, he's more of a tactical fighter than a grunt.
I do feel that there's a logical fallacy in writing off the early marine rush (with or without shotguns) as cheap and to be ignored. It is the only counter to unchecked alien expansion. If comms consistently went for the early rush, aliens would have to reign in their aggressive expansion.
I think that NS 2.0 would have a good balance if this process worked itself out. Sure it would lead to a lot of fast, cheap Marine victories for a while, but how is that worse than long, cheap Alien victories? A strategic balance would be made in time.
But there are other roads to balance, and I think that a patch which slows hive development would do a lot. I think that 45-50 res would be sufficient to slow the alien tech tree without crippling the team. Some semi-public testing would help with this.
Remember, Onos aren't that dangerous when pitted against what Marines could produce for that investment of time/resources. Onos with redemption, cloak, and celerity/adrenaline are.
Since a skulk > marine then and they are faster then as soon as the rush is noticed (often reported by the first skulk you encounter) and gorges are also better.
Simply having a commander is supposed to make up for these shortcomings with "teamwork". Well, the aliens have hive sight and can talk to each other as well, so the Marines don't actually have a big advantage.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
-JohnnySmash
I often wander around solo as a marine, setting up vital phase gates to siege points while the rest of my team puts up a really big distraction elsewhere. Sometimes, I get a little backup because 1 or 2 fellow rines follow me. That's good.
That's one of the reasons why my team won a few games last night. We managed to lockdown 1 hive, then blow the other one to bits with well-placed sieges and phase gates. Then, the aliens got bitchy and F4ed. GG.