I Have Figured It Out !

ShadowicsShadowics Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7652Members
<div class="IPBDescription">the reason for the 2.01a,b&c patches</div> When I first played NS 2.0, it seemed like it was great. The most balanced of any NS version yet. Aliens won a little more than they lost, but I attributed that to the fact that the old stand-by of marine strategy, the HMG rush, was no longer as effective.

When someone said they were releasing a patch for 2.0 I though he was joking. Now here we are not even 2 weeks after release and there have been 3! patches. What happened to all that time that went into playtesting 2.0?

I couldn't figure out why Flayra would want to nerf aliens so badly. Then, last night, I realized the truth.

Think of every alien movie you've ever seen, ever book you've ever read, what do they all have in common? It's simple, Humans win. In all the Alien movies, Humans win.

So what's that's have to do with NS? simple, 2.0 was balanced. 2.0c is balanced so that, just like the movies, Humans win. After all, who would want to live in a universe ruled by Kharra? Go go TSA!
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Comments

  • Trojan2Trojan2 Join Date: 2003-01-14 Member: 12290Members
  • MonkeybonkMonkeybonk Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18859Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--Shadowics+Aug 10 2003, 01:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shadowics @ Aug 10 2003, 01:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Go go TSA! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Rah rah sis-boom-bah!
  • MrMojoMrMojo Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9882Members, Constellation
    Yeah....the point of the patches it to make marines win every time. If this is another "sarcastic" and "bitter" thread from a "hardcore" player...
  • nthingnthing Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3091Members
    Wow maybe you're onto something.

    <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ShadowicsShadowics Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7652Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Aug 10 2003, 02:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Aug 10 2003, 02:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah....the point of the patches it to make marines win every time. If this is another "sarcastic" and "bitter" thread from a "hardcore" player...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not everytime. If marines won everytime then it wouldn't be much of a game. More like watching a movie that you already knew the ending to. I'm thinking he's going for something like a 75% marine win rate - so if a really good alien team scrapes together they could still pull off a win on a pub server. Then the purpose of the game becomes simple - go marines to shoot stuff and blow stuff up and have fun - go aliens if you want a serious challenge where you'll probably just end up dying over and over.
  • CBD-IkariyaCBD-Ikariya Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11841Members
    No... Actually, it's because of the last minute changes (Resource towers giving res instantly instead of after a minute being built) that ruined the balance, but increased the fun in the game. This change made it so that the aliens won 90% of the time, even during organized clan matches, hence the massive amount of alien nerfing.

    We all tend to think of the people higher up as just n00bs themselves, since answers seem so obvious when we are basking in ignorance. However, in the big scheme of things, Flayra knows what he's doing, so give him the respect he deserves.
  • AaronAaron vroom vroom der party startah Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7020Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm thinking he's going for something like a 75% marine win rate<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Personally I think he is going for whatever gets everybody <b><i>whining about everything and making insulting sarcastic posts</i></b>. Seems to be working...
  • JRPereiraJRPereira Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4778Members
    Actually, in Alien reseurrection, ripley wasn't exactly human - neither was call (hopes he has the names right)
  • ShadowicsShadowics Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7652Members
    edited August 2003
    CBD - I didn't know about the bug with Res towers, maybe I need to read the forums more. I haven't been reading the forums since I've been playing NS 2.0, and IMHE aliens didn't win 90%, they won maybe 60% like I said in my first post. If you'll recall, in 1.0 marines had the advantage and they won 60% or so of the time. I don't think Flayra is a n00b, as you put it. I felt pretty good about my sudden realization of what his big plan was for NS.

    Aaron - If I wanted to whine about everything I would probably pick electrifing TFs or something. I'm not whining, insulting, or sarcastic. At what point did I say that what Flayra's doing is a bad thing or that the game was better off in 2.0 when it was balanced? What I'm doing is equivalent to stating a fact - it's just the explaination for the changes that have been made. There's no reason for you to make posts like that.

    JRP - While she wasn't exactly human, she still beat the aliens so the humans won.
  • SpazmaticSpazmatic Join Date: 2003-05-10 Member: 16184Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I didn't know about the bug with Res towers, maybe I need to read the forums more. I haven't been reading the forums since I've been playing NS 2.0, and IMHE aliens didn't win 90%, they won maybe 60% like I said in my first post. If you'll recall, in 1.0 marines had the advantage and they won 60% or so of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    First, it's not a bug. They added this because res activation time was DULL.

    Second, the game is horrifically imbalanced in terms of clan play... Not because it's overall problematic, but because the problem is so early on right now, which just screws up the rest. It's almost completely balanced, let Flayra play around with it... He'll figure out the solution.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    Eh humans don't always win. Even in "Independence Day" I feel the aliens truly won that... Look at Starcraft. At the very end of all the warring going on, the Zerg reign triumphant. (The terrans lose all their colonies, all they have left now is earth. Protoss ran to Shakuras, but the zerg could easily find them again, and the Zerg control all the colonies, Auir lies in ruins, and any humans left on the ruined colonies are either dead or dying. If i were able to direct a movie I'd make the aliens win. Humanity wouldn't end in a blaze, but a whimper. *Sick cackling* Starship troopers even. Its a lot more intelligent than you'd think. It gives a "What-if-everyone-was-a-nazi" idea for the humans. I think it represents world war 2. anyway off to eat a bagel i go. VROOOM
  • ShadowicsShadowics Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7652Members
    Spaz - Whatever about the res towers. I'm not talking about clan play, as I'm not in a clan, just your average pub play. The problem is so early on? what problem?

    Commie - ooo, Independance Day, good one, I hadn't thought of that. That's kinda like the old 1.04 days where aliens would be kicking butt, then a lone JP+HMG would fly into the hive and take it out. Oops, marines win. Starcraft is kind-of the grey area in between, but that's another game, not a book or a movie.
  • SpazmaticSpazmatic Join Date: 2003-05-10 Member: 16184Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spaz - Whatever about the res towers. I'm not talking about clan play, as I'm not in a clan, just your average pub play. The problem is so early on? what problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It has to do with early alien tech rate... A bunch of things were changed at the last minute to make the game more fun, and the testers only had 4 days to test that version. As a result, there are problems with time to first fade, time to second hive, time to onos, etc... It's all wrong. And it's all connected to rfks and alien tech rate. Or, I do believe that's the most popular hypothesis right now (there is no unanimous agreement).

    The fact is, though, pub play is simply the error-prone version of clan play. It's almost Platonic like that. That also means, over time, as pub players get better, things become clearer, and the bad ones get culled out, the game steadily approaches clan play (though never reaches it). Thus, clan problems are pub problems.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    edited August 2003
    Yeah but its all smiles and cheese at the end of the expansion. (starcraft)
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    Well in 2.01c the patch was, if anyone really recognized it, to prevent aliens from expanding too fast. Everyone was whining about it, so I guess he did ultimate nerf. Aliens cant evolve unless in range from a hive, the umbra, celerity slowing them down, hive increase, all of that demouts expansion on the alien side. I think hes testing things out right now, IMHO, have faith and give the man time.
  • Nil_IQNil_IQ Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15520Members
    2.0 is unbalanced.

    2.01a is still unbalanced, but not so much so, although it is also less fun for aliens.

    2.01b is balanced imho, without losing any of the fun.

    2.01c is a joke :/

    Actually I think 2.01c was an attempt to try some new things rather than balance the game.
  • enf0rcerenf0rcer intrigued... Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14584Members
    <img src='http://enforcer.onestop.net/sigh.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

    <span style='color:black'>i wish they had this smile on the forums. I wouldn't have to link it that way</span>
  • cheesehoundcheesehound Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18826Members
    edited August 2003
    *agrees w/ Nil_IQ*

    I still love the muffins outta plain' ol' 2.0, though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
  • JohnnySmashJohnnySmash Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18870Members
    I bet every other replier has said this, but I'll say it just in case- these were beta patches. Some of the changes have been scrapped. Some of the current changes will be scrapped. He hasn't been hasty with anything- everyone knows testing dramatic changes is the fastest way to get results.

    I do, however, think he shouldn't change so many variables at once. It's really difficult to tell why the game plays differently when there's 4 different things that could be causing it. I don't know if Flayra is trying to get balancing over with or what- but a slower process where he changes one variable at a time might be more accurate.

    Then again with one thing at a time the changes might not be noticeable, but would gradually add up over time to have bigger effects. This would leave you a ways down the line with an inbalanced game and a bunch of things contributing to that- but no way to tell what exactly is wrong.

    Bah, whatever. I think Flayra is doing fine and he probably knows more about balancing than me. =/

    -JohnnySmash
  • Jabba_The_HuntJabba_The_Hunt Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11850Members
    Disclaimer - this post is supposed to be taken sarcastically, if that is not possible please do not read any further.

    if you want it to be like the movies, with the marines winning all the time why not just...

    giv3 th3m t3h ulim4te w34pon!!! - wat h4ppens is the marines are ti3d into the ships main fram sumhow and wh3n they all die the WHOLE SHIP BLOWS UP, KILLING ALL THE ALI3NS!!! - OMG THIS WOULD RULE, MARINES WOULD NEVAR LOOSE!!!
  • SpazmaticSpazmatic Join Date: 2003-05-10 Member: 16184Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->giv3 th3m t3h ulim4te w34pon!!! - wat h4ppens is the marines are ti3d into the ships main fram sumhow and wh3n they all die the WHOLE SHIP BLOWS UP, KILLING ALL THE ALI3NS!!! - OMG THIS WOULD RULE, MARINES WOULD NEVAR LOOSE!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    We should assume that a "marine loss" is actually the codephrase that the government uses to refer to "Spent $5 billion on a nuke to nuke the Khaara, but we want to be politically correct".
  • ShadowicsShadowics Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7652Members
    In the Movies, Humans do not have ultimate weapons the just blow away the aliens. It wouldn't be much of a movie.

    In 1.04, Marines had the advantage over aliens. A lone marine could JP+HMG in the hive and take out the aliens. Everything is right in the NS universe. (Where 'right' means TSA is beating back the Kharra, just like in the movies)

    So for 2.0, Flayra gives the aliens neat stuff, like being able to be any lifeform, and giving lerks spore from the start, and Fade's metabolize, etc... Obviously the purpose of this was to make the game more interesting for aliens so they would keep playing even though marines were still winning. But the changes were to much, and worked too well, and aliens started winning a little. So Flayra has to come back and nerf the aliens back down so marines can still go and destroy them easily.

    And if anyone else wants to write about "I'm sure Flayra knows what he's doing", keep in mind that's I'm not arguing here. I haven't said it was better before he went and nerfed the aliens. This is just my idea as to why he nerfed the aliens.
  • PodPod Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5745Members
    There have not been any patches for NS2. Can we lock this Thread now?
  • SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
    NS is nothing like a movie. For instance, Take the part where the marines realise they are doomed and instead of admitting defeat, resort to hiding in a room with a bagillion turrets dragging the game on for hours. That isnt filmable material, or very playable either for that matter <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    2.0 still rocks though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ShadowicsShadowics Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7652Members
    You're absolutely right Supernorn.

    I never said NS was like a movie, it's just the idea of Humans winning in movies, books, and games. After all, who would want to see their own species getting destroyed? You're right about marines turrets farming - stalemate. That's why we're probably going to get a NS 2.01d sometime soon, then aliens will be nerfed even more and marines will have no reason to turret farm.

    And you're right <u>2.0</u> rocks.
  • CForresterCForrester P0rk(h0p Join Date: 2002-10-05 Member: 1439Members, Constellation
    Flayra is impartial. He wants balance, and he wants the fun to still stay with balance. You know how difficult this is? He doesn't favor either race. However, I favor Kharaa. *rarr fraw vrawww* (You're truly a Kharaa player if you understood what that meant.)
  • The_Real_QuasarThe_Real_Quasar Has the I.Q. of 12,000 P.E. Teachers Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9998Members
    "Now We Donce?"
    Yay for the English-Kharaa dictionary! (Coming soon to all good bookstores last Thursday the 56th of Januember. Second dimension on the right.)
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--ZiGGY^+Aug 10 2003, 02:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Aug 10 2003, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah but its all smiles and cheese at the end of the expansion. (starcraft) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> For the zerg yes. The ol' queen of blades laughing and slaughtering the remaining humans (yey).
  • OkaboreOkabore Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9505Members
    Are you guys serious? There are so many people in this thread who depresses me.
    [sarcasm]Yea Flayra wants marines to win Jus7 1ike tah m0vies[/sarcasm]
    I love to read about the different testpatches (and they <b>are</b> just tests, as said before no real patch has been released yet) but if people keep getting upset because of them then it might be better if the beta forum is closed. Flayra doesn't have any responsabilty to answer and defend things he is just experimenting with so please give it a rest. Maybe the moderators should start locking all threads like this one that takes place outside the beta forum...

    That said...
    Communist, finaly someone else who understand the glory of starshiptroopers and the depth it actually have. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Read the book if you haven't allready. It enchanses the facist tendencies with humans nukeing civilians from a second alien race. I think that most miss Heinleins criticism against military societies when they see the movie.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    Wow.... When did the average NS player's IQ drop this far below that of the average CS player's IQ?

    Give Flayra some credit... And if you can't, I invite you to try and do a better job of creating a mod. Almost like a bus-load of back-seat drivers who don't have their licenses yet trying to tell the bus driver which pedal is the accelerator.... Except of course they can't agree on which one it is...

    I too prefer playing Kharaa, simply because the extremely varied alien abilities allow smart players to employ smart tactics. Marines are relatively limited in terms of being able to exercise their think-muscle until difficult to use weaponry such as GLs and JPs come along. However that being said being part of a well organised and succesful marine team can be equally, if not more, gratifying.

    As for the filmability of the long marine endgame, you could (with the right cutting and editing) turn it into one of the many movies the invariably end with the humans holding out at their last bastion of peace and humanity blah blah blah.... Cmon even Saving Private Ryan did it... The movie started with the allies breaking through the axis attempt to drag out a long end game (camping at the beaches firing explosives randomly), and ended with the allied squad drawing out their round by camping the bridge...

    Camping does make good movie material....
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