Early Game Balance

PredmidPredmid Join Date: 2003-03-28 Member: 14997Members
as the tournament this weekend proved, 2.0 for clan play isnt totally balanced. there has to be a way to slow down the huge alien expansion in the beginning. The hive evolution restriction sorta works, but it hinders the mid and late game play. For what its worth, heres my 2 cents.

1. equalize starting res: as it stands now, the aliens have a 50 res advantage right off the bat. then as they drop 2-4 nodes inside of 30 seconds, they have a well built economy in the first minute. to try and curb this huge rapid expansion, lower the starting alien res. to make it so that the gorges cant build an rt from the start would instantly hinder the growth. In conjunction with, or maybe alone, increase the beginning marine res. so that they can begin to tech or expand right off the bat like their alien counterparts.

My scenario would be to drop alien beginning res to 20 each and increase marine res to 120 as to allow both sides equal opportunity to build their economies and begin teching up.

2. Increasing alien rt cost. (using this alone or somewhat in conjunction with point 1) By increasing rt costs, again, aliens cant go and drop a bunch of nodes right off the start; this gives the rines the time to secure a few nodes and have an equal opportunity to win.

3. final point, as soon as the second hive is up, and u have tier 2 upgrades, the aliens for the most part, cant be beat. There has been one occasion in my experience in which there was somewhat equal skill on both sides and the rines came back after the all important 2nd hive was finished and mc/dcs were employed. a bunch of oni, fades, lerks and got killed in a rine ambush by shotguns and gren launchers, after that, it was back and forth for awhile until the rines got ha, then they ha/shotty rushed the hives, gg for the rines. If the hive cost is increased to the 2.01c level, (tournament was using b), the rines have suffcient time to tech up and have a chance at winning.

go ahead, begin the flaming <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->

Comments

  • AegeriAegeri Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members
    I agree.

    Really, you've said everything I'd have said. Personally, I would like to see res activation back in the game, to expand the (oh too short) early game.
  • Young_TrotskyYoung_Trotsky Join Date: 2003-01-14 Member: 12285Members
    Brilliant post, I've been meaning to post something about aliens start res for a while, it's ludicrous, they have 6 nodes before the marines have 2 in many cases, it's just silly.
  • ApeApe Join Date: 2003-06-17 Member: 17448Members, Constellation
    edited August 2003
    From what I've seen, I have to agree. Aliens can cap 6 res nodes in under 60 seconds, while the marines will have capped/secured one or two max. Lowering aliens starting res to 20 or so should be an effective way to stop this (to be able to afford to gorge + drop an RT, you need to kill a few marines first).
  • SpazmaticSpazmatic Join Date: 2003-05-10 Member: 16184Members
    I strongly agree that the problem is with early game balance, and your bandage might fix it, however, I still believe that the problem is with rfk... Even when my team builds NO res nodes, time to fade is exceedingly short. Obviously, that's not the case in a competitive environment, but the same type of issue crops up.

    This is, however, a possible solution I'd like to see explored (along with the wonderful electricity changes in 2.01x) in some nice beta.
  • WodinWodin Join Date: 2003-06-09 Member: 17138Members
    Perhaps adding res activation times for the Khaara ONLY might be the solution.
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members
    Yeah, Aliens can expand hella fast early game.

    But then again, with the electricity changes in the recent patches, so can Marines. Think about it like this. By chosing to expand early, the Aliens are neglecting upgrades and defense for their hives. Marines can do just that as well. If you don't want to waste res on TF/Mines/Arms Lab, then just plop down IP/Armory and set a base guard. Then send out two squads to cap nodes like madmen and electrify every single one of them. They will stand until two hives, and by that time, you should have accumulated enough tech to down one of said hives quite easily.

    It's all choice in strategy really. Early expansion wins over early defense. Early offense wins over early expansion. Early defense wins over early offense. Simplified of course, but you can see it happen like that in RTS games, and that is basically what NS boils down to.

    In any event, good point.
  • MonkeybonkMonkeybonk Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18859Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--Predmid+Aug 10 2003, 08:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Predmid @ Aug 10 2003, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> as the tournament this weekend proved, 2.0 for clan play isnt totally balanced. there has to be a way to slow down the huge alien expansion in the beginning. The hive evolution restriction sorta works, but it hinders the mid and late game play. For what its worth, heres my 2 cents.

    1. equalize starting res: as it stands now, the aliens have a 50 res advantage right off the bat. then as they drop 2-4 nodes inside of 30 seconds, they have a well built economy in the first minute. to try and curb this huge rapid expansion, lower the starting alien res. to make it so that the gorges cant build an rt from the start would instantly hinder the growth. In conjunction with, or maybe alone, increase the beginning marine res. so that they can begin to tech or expand right off the bat like their alien counterparts.

    My scenario would be to drop alien beginning res to 20 each and increase marine res to 120 as to allow both sides equal opportunity to build their economies and begin teching up.

    2. Increasing alien rt cost. (using this alone or somewhat in conjunction with point 1) By increasing rt costs, again, aliens cant go and drop a bunch of nodes right off the start; this gives the rines the time to secure a few nodes and have an equal opportunity to win.

    3. final point, as soon as the second hive is up, and u have tier 2 upgrades, the aliens for the most part, cant be beat. There has been one occasion in my experience in which there was somewhat equal skill on both sides and the rines came back after the all important 2nd hive was finished and mc/dcs were employed. a bunch of oni, fades, lerks and got killed in a rine ambush by shotguns and gren launchers, after that, it was back and forth for awhile until the rines got ha, then they ha/shotty rushed the hives, gg for the rines. If the hive cost is increased to the 2.01c level, (tournament was using b), the rines have suffcient time to tech up and have a chance at winning.

    go ahead, begin the flaming <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I believe he missed one part:

    Hive 3 aliens vs. High Tech marines will ALWAYS result in a marine win, assuming the battleground is fair (Marines aren't stuck in their base, and control 50% of the map). Alien upgrades aren't anywhere near as useful as marine upgrades. Marines get NATURAL carapace upgrade, as well as 50 other toys. Aliens get 3 lousy toys, and some hive 3 abilities that may or may not be useless.
  • EighteenTwelveEighteenTwelve Join Date: 2003-08-10 Member: 19366Members
    What were the numbers from the Tourny yesterday? I have no idea what the number of Alien - Marine wins is.
  • JamlJaml Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9054Members
    edited August 2003
    I agree with the 20 res start. It would require to make some kills first before dropping res giving the marines the needed time early on. But i disagree on making rt´s more expensive. 5 rt´s for aliens does not equals 5 rt´s for marines. If i have 5 rts as a marine comm i usually can afford to equipp all the players with HA +their favorite weapon and have like 300 res spare i can spend on fun stuff like JP mines and such. On the other hand if aliens have 7 res it still takes forever to get an onos and i´ve never been on a server where there were more than 4 of them at a time. And marines easily can beat 2 hive aliens. It comes all down to res. Yesterday on bast a comm secured double res and the 2 res nodes in feedwater. I ate like 30 HA with my redemption onos but he could rebuild them faster as we could eat them. After around an hour the rines stormed refinery and we lost. It was a memorable game with great fights and comback attempts on both sides and i highly enjoyed it even if we lost. Marines can fight tier 2 aliens it just comes down to a decent comm and teamwork. Hives really arent that important. Securing one to deny them acid rockets charge and web is enough then it comes all down to res. Comms need to learn to win the res war and not the hive war.
  • PredmidPredmid Join Date: 2003-03-28 Member: 14997Members
    Ok, my point wasnt so much on how to equal out late game balance, because for the most part, i rarely see on equal teams the rines able to get that far before oni and fades are causing chaos. I just wish I knew what flay and the rest of the team thougth on these issues.

    As for the RFK, i personally believe that they are strongly needed on both sides. Res towers alone can barely get the teams teching up, and with most rine attacks needing a constant med spam from spores and such, the rines would have NO res if not for the RFK. On the opposite side, the aliens would be far too dependent on the two or three perm gorges to do the building of various structures, cause if the skulks get no res for kills, they have no benefit to do anything but camp their secured area and recieve no bonus for scouting out lone rambos etc. Usually, if the early scouting skulks are doing their job right, their res should be in the 50-60 range as one of them drops the hive and the others evolve into higher forms.
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