Who Would You Balance The Game For?
CutterJoe
Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11594Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11594Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Clanners or Pubbers First?</div> I am not a clanner. I used to be back in college but since getting married and raising a young son I rarely have the time for organized play. Not that I have anything against it. But My question to you guys is:
Who would you balance the game for first?
Clanners, the loyal players who will rarely stray from a game that is both enjoyable and easy competitive play.
OR
Pubbers, the masses which come and go as they please but are easier to attract in some cases.
Personally I have no preference. But if I was developing I would probably go for the pubbers first then the clanners. But thats just my opinion.
So what would you guys go for first and why?
Who would you balance the game for first?
Clanners, the loyal players who will rarely stray from a game that is both enjoyable and easy competitive play.
OR
Pubbers, the masses which come and go as they please but are easier to attract in some cases.
Personally I have no preference. But if I was developing I would probably go for the pubbers first then the clanners. But thats just my opinion.
So what would you guys go for first and why?
Comments
So by balancing it for clanners you give more depth and a much more immersive gameplay along with more gameplay hours. If you make something that somewhat caters to a more experienced crowd, you will have alot of room for new players to progress.
So I guess you would shoot for the long term players rather than the masses? I would probably go that route as well as I remember the incredible fun I had clanning.
Having said that, the question is a bit abstract in its nature. What differantiates the two sides? I would rather see the game balanced period.
Here's one way to measure balance:
Both teams have 5 nodes and are allowed to sit back and tech up. After X minutes they fight. Who wins?
In 1.04 it was Marines, in 2.0 it's Aliens. This ment that in 1.04 Aliens had to attack and in 2.0 Marines have to attack, since if they don't try to stop the other team they will lose.
Another way to measure balance is to look at the units:
1 base unit of one team vs 1 base unit of the other.
In 1.04 Marines were superior, in 2.0 it is pretty balanced.
So in one way, 2.0 has succeeded in aquiring balance, but in the more important way, it hasn't.
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So Stone I missed something which was is the most important?
Aliens expand very fast, allowing them to tech faster then marines. Skulks can force a defensive posture pretty early, forcing marines to turtle bases/expansions. Res that goes to defense isn't going to offense. As a result aliens have control of the res nodes and most of the map, giving them ample time to wear down expansions and eventually chisel away at the main marine base.
I don't really mind the idea that games are balanced for clan play. They offer more depth, if it is a higher learning curve. Given time, pubbies will duplicate (or try to) clan tactics. Remember when JP/HMG rush first hit the scene? It was a clan tactic. People saw how it worked and tried to do it on pubs. I think that some of the troubles are based on the team sizes that are used in balancing. Most servers are 10 vs 10, while I believe the game is balanced on 6 vs 6. That causes some problems, as the aliens start with significantly more resources.
In addition, how do you balance a game like Natural Selection for pubs? The major problem is that it requires teamwork, cooperation, and strategic thinking. More often than not, that's how pubbers are shooting themselves in the foot.
Right now, there are a lot of cries that NS is balanced (or, em, is being balanced) for the wrong group, however, I place this on the large supply of newbies... The fact is, most players who will end up being decent will stay if they see good players playing cooperatively, and get an exciting game, which is what will happen once 2.0 gets over its growing pains... You balance it for generic public play, you lose clan players, you lose pug players, heck, you lose most old players, even, since the game will become predictable and not challenging (this assumes, of course, that you cannot balance for both).
So, in summary, clan play.
Flayra's support of the COFR server is the only thing I've never really agreed with. Its one of those places I avoid at all costs because of the negative attitudes surrounding it.
And, believe it or not, the very same people that are calling to make the game more balanced for pubs (not even sure what that means, do you need an AI commander that makes the optimal moves or guns that point themselves?) will complain that the game is too easy and not worth their time when a marine can rambo a hive with an LMG and a spamming comm or a skulk can defeat an HA two patches and half a year down the road ("Flayra, you should've had the foresight not to listen to us complaining half a year ago! After all, you're raking in money from this project and owe us all something!").
In conclusion, I pose a parting question: what exactly does it mean to be balanced for pubs rather than balanced for clans? Are the two really different, or is it just a matter of inexperienced players?
As far as game balance, aim at the clanners.
Why? Because if you don't look at clanners while you're balancing your game, it increases the odds of a really unbalancing strategy emerging that a group of clanners can beat ANYONE with. The HMG rush in 1.04, for example, was pretty darn brutal. *throws rotten fruit at dr. d* If the game is balanced with an eye towards competitive play, it means that every strat, no matter how well executed, is still counterable given sufficient skill on the other side.
Errr.. for one thing, I am a clanner. For the other, I don't have a beef with clans. I play in clan games and I watch clan games. I am saying that if you focuse the game on clanners, the game will die. Why? Because clans are made up of players who all start by playing public. It's not the other way around. The more pubbers, the more clanners, it is that simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Flayra's support of the COFR server is the only thing I've never really agreed with. Its one of those places I avoid at all costs because of the negative attitudes surrounding it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oops. Looks like you're the one with the "beef", kiddo. So I guess I'll say "Please disregard cri.ticals post. He has some sort of obvious beef with CoFRs".<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because if you don't look at clanners while you're balancing your game, it increases the odds of a really unbalancing strategy emerging that a group of clanners can beat ANYONE with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is *very* true and is why the game should just be "balanced", not "balanced for X". It shouldn't be impossible to do this.
So by balancing it for clanners you give more depth and a much more immersive gameplay along with more gameplay hours. If you make something that somewhat caters to a more experienced crowd, you will have alot of room for new players to progress. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
id do it for the pubbers because without pubbers there would be no advanced pubbers (clanners) lol remeber that time sirus we organized a ns game like a kickball game with captains n all, it worked pretty well except a few little ones fooling around and rebelling <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> we should try athat again sometime <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just like Counter-Strike. Counter-Terrorists beat terrorists with ease on almost any de_ map, and look at it - NOBODY plays that mod.
Clan or Public is a terrible concept. Take a game like Q3. Although people do tweak it, the patched Quake III out of the box is used in tournament and played at home.
Tsch.
No they don't. And you totally miss the point. In CS, it's not the game, the game is balanced. Colts are about equal to AKs, Sigs to Augs, Glocks to USPs. You are talking about the *maps*. And maps that are horribly unbalanced aren't popular. The most balanced map is de_dust2. Surprise! de_dust2 is played more then any other map.
And the guns aren't balanced:
How many guns are used, in a typical CS game?
USP, for CT's. DE for both, MP5 for both, AK for T, M4 for CT, AWP for both.
What about the other 20 odd guns? Useless. Glock vs. USP? T's lose almost every first round. But people come back.
If the game is balanced, then the team with the most skilled players will usually win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, I believe aztec is played more than dust2 - at least most of the CAL-o scrims I played were.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aztec is never played as an important map (ie: in a final or something simmilar) and is on the higher levels not very common. It is popular because it offers easy aim-training and not many flanking opportunities. Many people like aztec simply because they rarely get shot in the back on it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the guns aren't balanced:
How many guns are used, in a typical CS game?
USP, for CT's. DE for both, MP5 for both, AK for T, M4 for CT, AWP for both.
What about the other 20 odd guns? Useless. Glock vs. USP? T's lose almost every first round. But people come back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are not making sense. This has nothing to do with game balance. If one team could only get glocks and the other could get colt/ak/awp, THEN it would be unbalanced. You're just talking about the fact that some guns are useless, that has nothing to do with balance since they are equally useless to both sides.
i thought clans were supposed to ACTUALLY compete, not just tag up and call yourself a clan
but then you would have to also balance between public play and clan play....very hard desicion to make....
A game has to be FUN before you make it BALANCED
If you focus on 'balance' first and leave 'fun' as an afterthought, you end up with problems. Any attempt you make at trying to make the game fun AFTER you balance it will upset the balance. So instead of wasting time, the best thing to do is do ALL your work making the game fun and bug free, THEN go ahead and tweak the game variables in order to balance it.
Fun gams appeal to the pubber and balanced games appeal to the claners. You can usually achieve both fun AND balance if you just take care of the fun first and then worry about the balance later.
Regards,
Savant
The vast majority of pubs suffer from lack of teamwork or poor commanding more than they suffer from any true inbalance that may exist.
This is why you have to look at clan matches to pinpoint TRUE imbalance - Any decent clan will be working together and put their best guy in as commander.
NS Is a game that encourages teamwork to a extent greater than other mods. It's insane to think that NS teamwork is consistently like other mods.
Now if you balance a game towards clanners and not pubbers, there is no gurantee that the pubber end will become an unplayable, boring, unbalanced piece of shite. It might, or it might not. I think teamwork and tactical sense is what mainly seperates clanners and pubbers. And if a game becomes unplayable, boring, and unbalanced, this is only to SOME pubbers. There will be plenty of pub players who are adapted to the more clan designed game.
I liked that point about playability VS balance. Pubbers find the game easy to learn and get decent at, clanners find a lack of imbalances.
A game has to be FUN before you make it BALANCED
If you focus on 'balance' first and leave 'fun' as an afterthought, you end up with problems. Any attempt you make at trying to make the game fun AFTER you balance it will upset the balance. So instead of wasting time, the best thing to do is do ALL your work making the game fun and bug free, THEN go ahead and tweak the game variables in order to balance it.
Fun gams appeal to the pubber and balanced games appeal to the claners. You can usually achieve both fun AND balance if you just take care of the fun first and then worry about the balance later.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agreexor.
Well, me, I would focus on pubbers. They (if it's balanced and fun for them) can become clanners... but if you focus on clanners (the smaller group of players), the newbies will leave, and there goes the NS community.
And GoZ, poker is an intense and invigorating game(and has very little to do with luck) =\
In roughly three fourths of pub games, the marine team is left with an unwilling and unskilled commander, and in the other quarter you have a capable one. Everyone knows what this is like--no orders are given, the team gradually drifts apart, and the aliens cap more and more res nozzles (especially in 2.0) until they have enough Oni to destroy the marines. This, contrasted with the occasional commander who uses voice comm and divides the team into squads, gains control of strategic locations, and eventually overpowers the aliens with sheer firepower and teamwork. We've all played for and against bad commanders, and for and against good commanders. The difference is huge. I can honestly say I don't think it will be easy to balance the two teams for pubs, when only <i>one</i> side must rely on the often faulty capabilities of a single player.