Charge can do more then 300 dmg. Probably 800+ dmg if used correctly. I Personally use Charge Over Gore Dued to it's awesome power to take out structures AND people by just running in circles around the enemy base.
<!--QuoteBegin--sej+Aug 19 2003, 04:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sej @ Aug 19 2003, 04:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And er 3-4 onos? Surely they could afford more if they had capped every other rt on the map.
And were the gorges webbing hmmmm?
My guess is that you were facing nubie redemption Onos' when they should hav taken regen or cara and were only concerned in devouring then giggling then running away, instead of using a mass charge like they should have done.
Sounds like you had REALLY newbie aliens, cos otherwise, the story, is impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seconded completely
With 3-4 gorges webbing the HA (and the IP's, to avoid respawned marines to attack), bilebombing and healing the onos (you can do all of this without problem if you have 3 or more movs near) and doing def-mov chambers (res weren't a problem, with nearly all the RT capped) 2-3 lerks umbraing, and the res of the aliens onosing-charging, there isn't any turret farm of this world that can't be destroyed
My opinion: Alien team was fagging <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->, especially the gorges, who are the key of the victory in those battles. I remember a battle in ns_bast, near marine base....i was onos, and a gorge came from the spinning door, and started building things (DC's and OC's). I requested to him some movs (he built 3 near the DC's). I (completely alone) started to charge-non-stop against the marine base and destroyed it completely in a few minutes (although they had a few HA's and a nice turret farm)...
I must say, that a well coordinated alien team can destroy a well guarded turret farm (with certain exceptions regarding mass grenade spam). If the ENTIRE alien team is not attacking the same location at the same time, then it is NOT a coordinated attack. The problem I see developing in the pubs is that it is much easier to have a commander organize an unorganized (read : nub) team than it is for the aliens to do the same. As alien, if half of your team is newbies then a large turret farm can hold you off indefinitely. You can't say "All aliens meet in station access alpha" and expect a majority of a pub team to get there ... but if I give every marine a waypoint there I WILL get a majority of my team there( or at least try <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). What I'm really trying to say here is that a good commander can compensate for his team's lack of experience, but aliens have no similar abiliity ... its a disadvantage of their de-centralized approach.
Someone else quoted, so I wont' do it again. I know everyone thinks right off the bat 'USE TEAMWORK!', because that is why alot of games are lost. I said that wasn't the reason, and it wasn't. They were attacking rambo style at first of course, like the silly pwnos that they were, but once they realized we weren't going down, coordinated umbra/bilebomb/onos attacks began. They weren't coming in one at a time.
And as some people said, with all their res, couldn't they have gotten 12 Onos? I think their record towards the end was like 6-7 onos. Let me point out it's kind of silly to talk about 'They only lost cause they didn't use teamwork!' and then say 'why didn't the whole team go Onos?'. That's not teamwork. I honestly think if they all had gone onos, we probably would've been even better off. That many ha/hmgs laugh at Onos, when they are all together. 15+ turrets and 9 marines focus firing? Half the Onos would be dead before they even got in to attacking distance on the marines or TF. Or they could attack turrets and all be HMGd. They ALWAYS used umbra, hence my saying the team wasn't noob.
As for res, when I hopped in the CC, we had about 80. We also had a TF in base and laser, and about 5 turrets in each. I dropped 4 more in each, split the marines, and waited until I got the res for advanced armory, while ugprading and dropping more turrets. I had 1 welder in each spot, and it's testament to how bad my team was considering I had to walk one fellow through the welding process. He was rapidly clicking, instead of holding the button down... This was still in the timeframe of a 'real' game, so they only had I think maybe 1 onos by then. They had to have gorges to drop WoLs, res, hives, etc... they had those guys who always rush for a fade, etc. etc. So they didn't have the res to go all onos. They would attack, and often enough fall, which would follow by them going skulk and coming in... etc. etc. etc., all those kills means more res. Yes, if they had stopped attacking right then and there when they saw me turret up, and all saved for Onos, I would never have had the res to do anything. But who would do that? Honestly, when was the last time you were about to beat the marine team and you said "OK! Everyone... sit around for 5 minutes let's all get the res for Oni!". No, they played a real game and tried to take us out. Slowly they took down laser, but by that time I had maxed out turrets in marine spawn. From there, I slowly HA'd up my entire team, then welders my entire team, then HMG/GL/shotgunned my entire team. After a good 10 minutes of just 'holding on', I realized we couldn't be touched. By that time we had about 250 res, from kills and just the tic. That was when the leapfrog started, and we progressed slowly from there, grabbing RTs until I got a good res tic going. So that's the entire games res situation.
As for Gorges webbing... how exactly? They would of course web up their WoLs once we started assaulting, but we had welders. And they couldn't web up my IPs unless they coudl GET to them, and that's what this thread is about... a turret farm. They couldn't. They could web an HA randomly in base, but that doesn't stop the other 8, or the turrets.
So, before you give me the same cliched hypotheses about 'simple teamwork' and how any well-organized, well-oiled coordinated 'on the same page' group of PUBBERS could rip apart that TF (sigh... yeah all you have to do is get 10 people who have never played together, only half of whom have voice comm, and only half of them you can understand... get them all to simultaneously enact a simple 22 step plan to assault the base! It's JUST that easy!), or how 'just look at the numbers!' easy it is to bilebomb anything... try this. Go on a server, find a team that is willing to do this, and try it. My guys SUCKED, I mean they lacked technical skill, but once they realized the plan they were on board. Before that, they were all rambo'ing to hell... but once they pretty much couldn't leave the base without getting killed, they stayed in base... which was the plan! And every rambo loves HA/HMG, too. Grab some res early, maybe 2-3 nodes, but don't tech at all. Turret farm them all. Get an obs in each one, also. Watch the kills light up from the aliens who have nothing to do but try and take your TF out. And they will probably get it. So be redundant too. Be super lame. Get weapons upgrades only. Don't get PGs until you have 10+ turrets at each farm. Don't ugprade armor until you max out the turrets. Don't get HAs or HMGs/GLs until then too. Watch how frustratingly easy it is.
And to those who think it isn't lame... and who *gasp* said I did a good comming job, well *I* did it... and *I* think it's lame. Gaming to me isn't about winning 'at all costs' it's about having a good time. Winning is part of a good time, but winning while entirely missing the purpose of the game is silly. NS isn't about turret creeping. It's just not how the game was intended to be played, and it's boring. But the fact that it can be done just sucks.
Hopefully 2.01a(d) will adress these issues of turret farms, with the introduction of 'light' damage to onos. This should hopefully make games more enjoyable.
Anyhow, just to all of the people out there who really want to know how charge works:
Charge deals 10 dmg per tenth of a second(not sure on how fast, but it's really damn fast) as long as you move into something. Adrenaline wise, it's not more effecient at killing structures than gore, but speed wise it wins hands down.
If you want to know how I know this, it's because the server I play on has a plugin which shows how much damage you deal to the enemy when you attack in little red numbers that float up and away similar to res nozzles that show +1 per every five seconds. The little red -10's show up so often when someone charges, it actually drops my FPS by a bit due to so many little red -10's.
I never said the aliens didn't use teamwork, from your description I would indeed agree that they were useing teamwork. What I said is that the aliens sucked.
From your description of how your base was laided out I have no doubt that I could have destroyed it as onos with 1 gorge as support. Adrenaline + charge owns any turret farm ever made. Even if you are useing the redemption upgrade that shortens your attack time considerably you will still be able to kill at least 2 or 3 turrets if you press up against them (while chargeing) before you redeem. Even worst is a onos that bunny hops while charging... this means that anything that he touches in his bunny hops takes massive damage.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From your description of how your base was laided out I have no doubt that I could have destroyed it as onos with 1 gorge as support.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
......
Skill goes a long way. But unless you have some kind of bullet dodging ninja Onos skill, you wouldn't be able to take it in 1 run. Nor 2. By the third, someone(s) would be there, if not by the second. No, I'm sorry I'm not a vet, but I'm also not an idiot. I know you couldn't take the entire TF out, if only because you would have to run to a heal station outside siege range, which gives me time to react. I'm not talking about 5 turrets I'm talking about 20.
(And it's laid, not laided... laided out sounds kind of silly. Just for your knowledge.)
I know that you are talking 20 turrets and I never said I would take it down in 1 run, hence the gorge support.
If you use charge correctly you can easily take 2 turrets down per run, if you are actually useing regen you can get at least 3 before you have to retreat. Useing caraspace as your upgrade you can get like 4-5 turrets per run.
Obviously you do not know the power of charge. Why dont you test charge on your own server before you try and say that its not possible, set up a turret farm of 20+ turrets then go onos on the aliens and use the charge ability on the turrets. If you have enough skill to press yourself up against a turret without sliding around it you will take the turret down in less than a second. If you can press up against multiple turrets at once (yes this means with the side of your body too, you can actually turn sideways and strafe up against a row of turrets so that like 4 turrets are touching your body) they will all die equaly fast, meaning you can kill 4 turrets in less than a second if you are pressing up against all of them.
The problem most people have is that they don't have to skill to press against a turret without sliding around it, something you can do to help yourself if you keep sliding around the turret is to crouch and press against it, this will block some of the shots from other turrets and also slow you down so you have more control so that you dont slide around it.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Aug 19 2003, 01:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 19 2003, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Charge deals 10 dmg per tenth of a second(not sure on how fast, but it's really damn fast) as long as you move into something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's just 100 damage per second, about half as damaging as gore. It has to be more damaging than that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know that you are talking 20 turrets and I never said I would take it down in 1 run, hence the gorge support.
If you use charge correctly you can easily take 2 turrets down per run, if you are actually useing regen you can get at least 3 before you have to retreat. Useing caraspace as your upgrade you can get like 4-5 turrets per run.
Obviously you do not know the power of charge. Why dont you test charge on your own server before you try and say that its not possible, set up a turret farm of 20+ turrets then go onos on the aliens and use the charge ability on the turrets. If you have enough skill to press yourself up against a turret without sliding around it you will take the turret down in less than a second. If you can press up against multiple turrets at once (yes this means with the side of your body too, you can actually turn sideways and strafe up against a row of turrets so that like 4 turrets are touching your body) they will all die equaly fast, meaning you can kill 4 turrets in less than a second if you are pressing up against all of them.
The problem most people have is that they don't have to skill to press against a turret without sliding around it, something you can do to help yourself if you keep sliding around the turret is to crouch and press against it, this will block some of the shots from other turrets and also slow you down so you have more control so that you dont slide around it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depending on the position of the turrets, the position I used in particular, there is no way to close the distance to them so quickly that you aren't taking significant damage. And once you do get up to them they are spaced. IE no turret line. You'd be hard pressed to get your body up against 2, let alone 4. You are assuming some kind of ubernoober TF setup if you expect to 'powerslide' 4 turrets at once. I've also never seen anyone 'powerslide' in a game, when they were taking fire. That takes a great deal of not only skill, but coolness under pressure. The level of which I'd say 9/10 NS players don't have. And I'm not including people with the name nsplayer either ;-)
If you are using Carapace, btw, your heal station with 6DCs, I will have at least 1 marine back in base by the time you return. And that is with an optimal 6dc heal station, which I rarely see unless in a last-ditch situation like this game. Imagine if this strategy was used not as a last, but as a first resort. You wouldn't really want your players spending their res on nearby, siegable heal stations. You'd want them far back. In which case, you might as well have a 3DC heal station up closer, as far as return-to-attack time goes. And like I said before, this is with recycling TFs, meaning there are multiple fronts... I think I had 5-6 fronts at one time. With a pure creep, you should have 2-3 fronts max. And even if they attack some auxiliary spot, venting there as a skulk then evolving or something... they can have it. And there won't be a heal station nearby either. So they will have to have regen. In which case, I'll have to pull back a whopping 1 marine to kill that Onos, if the marine uses any tact or skill and just makes his presence less known until the Onos is already retreating from his turret run with low health.
We all know how powerful Charge is. We all hear about it 30 times a day, either from the screaming hordes of "ONOS ARE OVERPOWERED!"s, or from the smaller but just as loud "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO USE XXXXXX!"s. I use charge myself when I am Onos, instead of gore. I think that if the Kharaa team had all their Onos with carapace from the start, they might have had more luck if they had all just charged through the turrets while the rest of the Kharaa came in to get the marines. But that requires more foresight than human beings have.
In my first post, I made it clear that it would surely be possible for a clan using Kharaa, vs. this pubber strategy, to quell the terraforming before it started. But that's not fair, because I did it in a pub with pub players. If I had done it with a clan, I most likely would have locked down 1 hive from the start. No charge for you.
I think you are setting up the 'counters' to this strat with optimal conditions and skill for the kharaa, and minimal for the marines. I can't remember seeing a person 'powerslide' in a pub for days. And it's one of those things which is quite easy in mechanics, and rather difficult in practice.
Alright, so it was late, my ISP was being a jerk and being too slow to play, and I wanted to cool down for a bit. I decided I'd test this 'powerslide' vs. turret farm out.
I booted up origin, put sv_cheats on, and built up a pair of ridiculous turret farms in marine spawn and laser drilling. Then I recycled the TF in laser drilling (I wanted to 'practice' powersliding a bit beforehand on my turret-web setup). I also got an arms lab and level 3 weapons, and I placed a proto lab and 2 IPs for the proper amount of "clutter" to add a little realism. I then switched to Kharaa, built 3 hives, 3 sensory/defense/movement chambers. I waited, got an onos, went with Adrenaline, Carapace, and cloaking as if that mattered. I also had placed a CC line outside cargo, to get some extra powersliding practice, so I demolished that quickly enough, took a few randomly placed turrets out while crouching to ensure my skills were fresh, and moved to laser. First, I would point out I ran out of adrenaline before I was anywhere near finished in laser, but who cares. I found in general, I would be lucky to be able to hit 2 turrets at once with my charge, because like most comms with any semblance of strategy, I don't place my turrets in bunches or lines. I worked my way through that etc. etc. etc. I went back to gorge, dropped a 6 DC heal station right there, and returned to Onos. I then took on the ACTIVATED turrets.
My first run got me a single turret before I was low on HP. When I escaped, I had 20 health and 0 armor. I tried again, and grabbed 2 turrets and really weakened a 3rd. I returned for my third run, but this time I figured I would bypass the turrets and go straight for the TF. A note here, I specifically placed the TF in a rather accesible, middle of the room position, instead of a more difficult to grab spot. It wasn't electrified. God save me if the Comm me had been sadistic enough to get a redundant TF, eh? I didn't even get it to yellow before I had to retreat, and I actually died on the retreat because I got stuck while jumping, like I said most players probably would due to the setup.
4th try, I figured I would enter from the other side, see if that wasn't easier, so I came in from the biodome side. There were less turrets there, but in general all the turrets had a line of fire to most spots of the room so it didn't matter. Then I realized a nice NEW lame trick. I had placed 2 turrets rather close to the back of the TF, so that it was almost unchargeable from that side until I had gotten through both the turrets, because they were so close I couldn't get on the same 'level' as the TF itself to hit it. So that's another layer of difficulty: placing the turrets close enough that there is no way the TF can be attacked by something as large as an Onos or probably a fade from ground level, until they clear at least 1-2 turrets. Gore of course works fine in that situation, but it's pretty hard to hold a charge position when you have to hold the forward key, and there is nothing in front of you. I figured, one more run. This last time, I tried from the first side, laser drilling, and figured I wouldn't attempt any retreat and just see how far I could go. I got an incredible, astonishing 2 turrets before I was taken out. Simply because they weren't placed right next to eachother.
All this I did of course with no other players, meaning I couldn't simulate an umbra effect. However, it also meant I couldn't simulate a marine effect. I think a GL or even an HMG/shotgunner would counter-act an umbra effect, you can fairly say. Obviously though, this is no real simulation for a team effort, but I already dealt with a real team effort up against this 'strategy' and you know how that ended. This is just in response to MaredText's opinion that an Onos should be able to take out the turret farm if they properly use charge, heal stations, and carapace. If I had played it safe and never risked my death, say... going below 150 HP before retreating, then it would have taken at least 6, or at most maybe 10 runs to take that turret farm out. With a carapce/adren onos using charge. In 6 runs, the comm couldn't get a marine there? A good comm would have a marine there after the first run. A lucky comm would have a marine there ON the first run.
<!--QuoteBegin--Maredtext+Aug 20 2003, 02:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maredtext @ Aug 20 2003, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe the problem is that I expect everyone else to have personal skill at least remotely close to my own. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If turrets are spread out enough, it is not physically possible for an onos to touch 4 turrets. If they are placed well, it is difficult to jump around them to get to the tf. If you have a marine shooting at you along with the 20 turrets, your time will be very limited on attacking the turrets.
lol as a marine i go for the gorge first in this situation its easier to kill, it forces it to retreat taking away your suport, you could take the time to kill me, but the turrets will force you to retreat no matter no taking the time and exposing yourself to more turrets to get me, and i respawn 5 feet away before your back to half life with your gorge, if he lived. any grenade spam renders your gorge buddy free res for more turrets. i can see this on some outpot but the home base nope.
the again i'm the guy that runs in front of the fade/onos to prevent its escape i may die but i'll buy that extra second to have a teammte get that last shotty into the enemy.
<!--QuoteBegin--Maredtext+Aug 20 2003, 02:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maredtext @ Aug 20 2003, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe the problem is that I expect everyone else to have personal skill at least remotely close to my own. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe the problem is that other people have more manners and social awareness than you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Maredtext+Aug 20 2003, 02:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maredtext @ Aug 20 2003, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe the problem is that I expect everyone else to have personal skill at least remotely close to my own. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I think it's the fact that you're not considering that the marine team might be using teamwork as well.
A turret limit of eight in an area would be a good idea, IMO. That's enough to give the marines time to respond, but not too few to make it impregnable. It'll be interesting to see how much extra bilebomb range in 2.1a helps, too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe the problem is that I expect everyone else to have personal skill at least remotely close to my own. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are exactly the dumb cliched responses I sought to make the first post immune to. Obviously it wasn't. THE ANSWER TO EVERY SINGLE POST IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD ISN'T YOU AREN'T USING SKILL/TEAMWORK/STRATEGY etc. etc. etc. Since you persist in not listening or using any reason, and just saying the same rehashed nonsense even after I used exactly what you are saying in practice, without an optimal marine setup, I don't think you have any argument at all.
How exactly is your "skill" going to let you hit 4 turrets at once, when they are too far away to hit? How exactly is your "skill" going to let you dodge bullets? Sure, you can juke and jive, but a lightning fast celerity skulk will get hit by MOST of the turrets at best. An Adrenaline Onos with a hitbox significantly larger will do what? How exactly is your "skill" going to prevent the marines from KNOWING HOW TO USE THEIR GUN? If he has a GL and a lick of aim, you won't even be able to run.
Comments
And were the gorges webbing hmmmm?
My guess is that you were facing nubie redemption Onos' when they should hav taken regen or cara and were only concerned in devouring then giggling then running away, instead of using a mass charge like they should have done.
Sounds like you had REALLY newbie aliens, cos otherwise, the story, is impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded completely
With 3-4 gorges webbing the HA (and the IP's, to avoid respawned marines to attack), bilebombing and healing the onos (you can do all of this without problem if you have 3 or more movs near) and doing def-mov chambers (res weren't a problem, with nearly all the RT capped) 2-3 lerks umbraing, and the res of the aliens onosing-charging, there isn't any turret farm of this world that can't be destroyed
My opinion: Alien team was fagging <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->, especially the gorges, who are the key of the victory in those battles. I remember a battle in ns_bast, near marine base....i was onos, and a gorge came from the spinning door, and started building things (DC's and OC's). I requested to him some movs (he built 3 near the DC's). I (completely alone) started to charge-non-stop against the marine base and destroyed it completely in a few minutes (although they had a few HA's and a nice turret farm)...
Someone else quoted, so I wont' do it again. I know everyone thinks right off the bat 'USE TEAMWORK!', because that is why alot of games are lost. I said that wasn't the reason, and it wasn't. They were attacking rambo style at first of course, like the silly pwnos that they were, but once they realized we weren't going down, coordinated umbra/bilebomb/onos attacks began. They weren't coming in one at a time.
And as some people said, with all their res, couldn't they have gotten 12 Onos? I think their record towards the end was like 6-7 onos. Let me point out it's kind of silly to talk about 'They only lost cause they didn't use teamwork!' and then say 'why didn't the whole team go Onos?'. That's not teamwork. I honestly think if they all had gone onos, we probably would've been even better off. That many ha/hmgs laugh at Onos, when they are all together. 15+ turrets and 9 marines focus firing? Half the Onos would be dead before they even got in to attacking distance on the marines or TF. Or they could attack turrets and all be HMGd. They ALWAYS used umbra, hence my saying the team wasn't noob.
As for res, when I hopped in the CC, we had about 80. We also had a TF in base and laser, and about 5 turrets in each. I dropped 4 more in each, split the marines, and waited until I got the res for advanced armory, while ugprading and dropping more turrets. I had 1 welder in each spot, and it's testament to how bad my team was considering I had to walk one fellow through the welding process. He was rapidly clicking, instead of holding the button down... This was still in the timeframe of a 'real' game, so they only had I think maybe 1 onos by then. They had to have gorges to drop WoLs, res, hives, etc... they had those guys who always rush for a fade, etc. etc. So they didn't have the res to go all onos. They would attack, and often enough fall, which would follow by them going skulk and coming in... etc. etc. etc., all those kills means more res. Yes, if they had stopped attacking right then and there when they saw me turret up, and all saved for Onos, I would never have had the res to do anything. But who would do that? Honestly, when was the last time you were about to beat the marine team and you said "OK! Everyone... sit around for 5 minutes let's all get the res for Oni!". No, they played a real game and tried to take us out. Slowly they took down laser, but by that time I had maxed out turrets in marine spawn. From there, I slowly HA'd up my entire team, then welders my entire team, then HMG/GL/shotgunned my entire team. After a good 10 minutes of just 'holding on', I realized we couldn't be touched. By that time we had about 250 res, from kills and just the tic. That was when the leapfrog started, and we progressed slowly from there, grabbing RTs until I got a good res tic going. So that's the entire games res situation.
As for Gorges webbing... how exactly? They would of course web up their WoLs once we started assaulting, but we had welders. And they couldn't web up my IPs unless they coudl GET to them, and that's what this thread is about... a turret farm. They couldn't. They could web an HA randomly in base, but that doesn't stop the other 8, or the turrets.
So, before you give me the same cliched hypotheses about 'simple teamwork' and how any well-organized, well-oiled coordinated 'on the same page' group of PUBBERS could rip apart that TF (sigh... yeah all you have to do is get 10 people who have never played together, only half of whom have voice comm, and only half of them you can understand... get them all to simultaneously enact a simple 22 step plan to assault the base! It's JUST that easy!), or how 'just look at the numbers!' easy it is to bilebomb anything... try this. Go on a server, find a team that is willing to do this, and try it. My guys SUCKED, I mean they lacked technical skill, but once they realized the plan they were on board. Before that, they were all rambo'ing to hell... but once they pretty much couldn't leave the base without getting killed, they stayed in base... which was the plan! And every rambo loves HA/HMG, too. Grab some res early, maybe 2-3 nodes, but don't tech at all. Turret farm them all. Get an obs in each one, also. Watch the kills light up from the aliens who have nothing to do but try and take your TF out. And they will probably get it. So be redundant too. Be super lame. Get weapons upgrades only. Don't get PGs until you have 10+ turrets at each farm. Don't ugprade armor until you max out the turrets. Don't get HAs or HMGs/GLs until then too. Watch how frustratingly easy it is.
And to those who think it isn't lame... and who *gasp* said I did a good comming job, well *I* did it... and *I* think it's lame. Gaming to me isn't about winning 'at all costs' it's about having a good time. Winning is part of a good time, but winning while entirely missing the purpose of the game is silly. NS isn't about turret creeping. It's just not how the game was intended to be played, and it's boring. But the fact that it can be done just sucks.
Anyhow, just to all of the people out there who really want to know how charge works:
Charge deals 10 dmg per tenth of a second(not sure on how fast, but it's really damn fast) as long as you move into something. Adrenaline wise, it's not more effecient at killing structures than gore, but speed wise it wins hands down.
If you want to know how I know this, it's because the server I play on has a plugin which shows how much damage you deal to the enemy when you attack in little red numbers that float up and away similar to res nozzles that show +1 per every five seconds. The little red -10's show up so often when someone charges, it actually drops my FPS by a bit due to so many little red -10's.
From your description of how your base was laided out I have no doubt that I could have destroyed it as onos with 1 gorge as support. Adrenaline + charge owns any turret farm ever made. Even if you are useing the redemption upgrade that shortens your attack time considerably you will still be able to kill at least 2 or 3 turrets if you press up against them (while chargeing) before you redeem. Even worst is a onos that bunny hops while charging... this means that anything that he touches in his bunny hops takes massive damage.
......
Skill goes a long way. But unless you have some kind of bullet dodging ninja Onos skill, you wouldn't be able to take it in 1 run. Nor 2. By the third, someone(s) would be there, if not by the second. No, I'm sorry I'm not a vet, but I'm also not an idiot. I know you couldn't take the entire TF out, if only because you would have to run to a heal station outside siege range, which gives me time to react. I'm not talking about 5 turrets I'm talking about 20.
(And it's laid, not laided... laided out sounds kind of silly. Just for your knowledge.)
If you use charge correctly you can easily take 2 turrets down per run, if you are actually useing regen you can get at least 3 before you have to retreat. Useing caraspace as your upgrade you can get like 4-5 turrets per run.
Obviously you do not know the power of charge. Why dont you test charge on your own server before you try and say that its not possible, set up a turret farm of 20+ turrets then go onos on the aliens and use the charge ability on the turrets. If you have enough skill to press yourself up against a turret without sliding around it you will take the turret down in less than a second. If you can press up against multiple turrets at once (yes this means with the side of your body too, you can actually turn sideways and strafe up against a row of turrets so that like 4 turrets are touching your body) they will all die equaly fast, meaning you can kill 4 turrets in less than a second if you are pressing up against all of them.
The problem most people have is that they don't have to skill to press against a turret without sliding around it, something you can do to help yourself if you keep sliding around the turret is to crouch and press against it, this will block some of the shots from other turrets and also slow you down so you have more control so that you dont slide around it.
That's just 100 damage per second, about half as damaging as gore. It has to be more damaging than that.
If you use charge correctly you can easily take 2 turrets down per run, if you are actually useing regen you can get at least 3 before you have to retreat. Useing caraspace as your upgrade you can get like 4-5 turrets per run.
Obviously you do not know the power of charge. Why dont you test charge on your own server before you try and say that its not possible, set up a turret farm of 20+ turrets then go onos on the aliens and use the charge ability on the turrets. If you have enough skill to press yourself up against a turret without sliding around it you will take the turret down in less than a second. If you can press up against multiple turrets at once (yes this means with the side of your body too, you can actually turn sideways and strafe up against a row of turrets so that like 4 turrets are touching your body) they will all die equaly fast, meaning you can kill 4 turrets in less than a second if you are pressing up against all of them.
The problem most people have is that they don't have to skill to press against a turret without sliding around it, something you can do to help yourself if you keep sliding around the turret is to crouch and press against it, this will block some of the shots from other turrets and also slow you down so you have more control so that you dont slide around it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depending on the position of the turrets, the position I used in particular, there is no way to close the distance to them so quickly that you aren't taking significant damage. And once you do get up to them they are spaced. IE no turret line. You'd be hard pressed to get your body up against 2, let alone 4. You are assuming some kind of ubernoober TF setup if you expect to 'powerslide' 4 turrets at once. I've also never seen anyone 'powerslide' in a game, when they were taking fire. That takes a great deal of not only skill, but coolness under pressure. The level of which I'd say 9/10 NS players don't have. And I'm not including people with the name nsplayer either ;-)
If you are using Carapace, btw, your heal station with 6DCs, I will have at least 1 marine back in base by the time you return. And that is with an optimal 6dc heal station, which I rarely see unless in a last-ditch situation like this game. Imagine if this strategy was used not as a last, but as a first resort. You wouldn't really want your players spending their res on nearby, siegable heal stations. You'd want them far back. In which case, you might as well have a 3DC heal station up closer, as far as return-to-attack time goes. And like I said before, this is with recycling TFs, meaning there are multiple fronts... I think I had 5-6 fronts at one time. With a pure creep, you should have 2-3 fronts max. And even if they attack some auxiliary spot, venting there as a skulk then evolving or something... they can have it. And there won't be a heal station nearby either. So they will have to have regen. In which case, I'll have to pull back a whopping 1 marine to kill that Onos, if the marine uses any tact or skill and just makes his presence less known until the Onos is already retreating from his turret run with low health.
We all know how powerful Charge is. We all hear about it 30 times a day, either from the screaming hordes of "ONOS ARE OVERPOWERED!"s, or from the smaller but just as loud "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO USE XXXXXX!"s. I use charge myself when I am Onos, instead of gore. I think that if the Kharaa team had all their Onos with carapace from the start, they might have had more luck if they had all just charged through the turrets while the rest of the Kharaa came in to get the marines. But that requires more foresight than human beings have.
In my first post, I made it clear that it would surely be possible for a clan using Kharaa, vs. this pubber strategy, to quell the terraforming before it started. But that's not fair, because I did it in a pub with pub players. If I had done it with a clan, I most likely would have locked down 1 hive from the start. No charge for you.
I think you are setting up the 'counters' to this strat with optimal conditions and skill for the kharaa, and minimal for the marines. I can't remember seeing a person 'powerslide' in a pub for days. And it's one of those things which is quite easy in mechanics, and rather difficult in practice.
I booted up origin, put sv_cheats on, and built up a pair of ridiculous turret farms in marine spawn and laser drilling. Then I recycled the TF in laser drilling (I wanted to 'practice' powersliding a bit beforehand on my turret-web setup). I also got an arms lab and level 3 weapons, and I placed a proto lab and 2 IPs for the proper amount of "clutter" to add a little realism. I then switched to Kharaa, built 3 hives, 3 sensory/defense/movement chambers. I waited, got an onos, went with Adrenaline, Carapace, and cloaking as if that mattered. I also had placed a CC line outside cargo, to get some extra powersliding practice, so I demolished that quickly enough, took a few randomly placed turrets out while crouching to ensure my skills were fresh, and moved to laser. First, I would point out I ran out of adrenaline before I was anywhere near finished in laser, but who cares. I found in general, I would be lucky to be able to hit 2 turrets at once with my charge, because like most comms with any semblance of strategy, I don't place my turrets in bunches or lines. I worked my way through that etc. etc. etc. I went back to gorge, dropped a 6 DC heal station right there, and returned to Onos. I then took on the ACTIVATED turrets.
My first run got me a single turret before I was low on HP. When I escaped, I had 20 health and 0 armor. I tried again, and grabbed 2 turrets and really weakened a 3rd. I returned for my third run, but this time I figured I would bypass the turrets and go straight for the TF. A note here, I specifically placed the TF in a rather accesible, middle of the room position, instead of a more difficult to grab spot. It wasn't electrified. God save me if the Comm me had been sadistic enough to get a redundant TF, eh? I didn't even get it to yellow before I had to retreat, and I actually died on the retreat because I got stuck while jumping, like I said most players probably would due to the setup.
4th try, I figured I would enter from the other side, see if that wasn't easier, so I came in from the biodome side. There were less turrets there, but in general all the turrets had a line of fire to most spots of the room so it didn't matter. Then I realized a nice NEW lame trick. I had placed 2 turrets rather close to the back of the TF, so that it was almost unchargeable from that side until I had gotten through both the turrets, because they were so close I couldn't get on the same 'level' as the TF itself to hit it. So that's another layer of difficulty: placing the turrets close enough that there is no way the TF can be attacked by something as large as an Onos or probably a fade from ground level, until they clear at least 1-2 turrets. Gore of course works fine in that situation, but it's pretty hard to hold a charge position when you have to hold the forward key, and there is nothing in front of you. I figured, one more run. This last time, I tried from the first side, laser drilling, and figured I wouldn't attempt any retreat and just see how far I could go. I got an incredible, astonishing 2 turrets before I was taken out. Simply because they weren't placed right next to eachother.
All this I did of course with no other players, meaning I couldn't simulate an umbra effect. However, it also meant I couldn't simulate a marine effect. I think a GL or even an HMG/shotgunner would counter-act an umbra effect, you can fairly say. Obviously though, this is no real simulation for a team effort, but I already dealt with a real team effort up against this 'strategy' and you know how that ended. This is just in response to MaredText's opinion that an Onos should be able to take out the turret farm if they properly use charge, heal stations, and carapace. If I had played it safe and never risked my death, say... going below 150 HP before retreating, then it would have taken at least 6, or at most maybe 10 runs to take that turret farm out. With a carapce/adren onos using charge. In 6 runs, the comm couldn't get a marine there? A good comm would have a marine there after the first run. A lucky comm would have a marine there ON the first run.
If turrets are spread out enough, it is not physically possible for an onos to touch 4 turrets. If they are placed well, it is difficult to jump around them to get to the tf. If you have a marine shooting at you along with the 20 turrets, your time will be very limited on attacking the turrets.
the again i'm the guy that runs in front of the fade/onos to prevent its escape i may die but i'll buy that extra second to have a teammte get that last shotty into the enemy.
Maybe the problem is that other people have more manners and social awareness than you.
No, I think it's the fact that you're not considering that the marine team might be using teamwork as well.
A turret limit of eight in an area would be a good idea, IMO. That's enough to give the marines time to respond, but not too few to make it impregnable. It'll be interesting to see how much extra bilebomb range in 2.1a helps, too.
These are exactly the dumb cliched responses I sought to make the first post immune to. Obviously it wasn't. THE ANSWER TO EVERY SINGLE POST IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD ISN'T YOU AREN'T USING SKILL/TEAMWORK/STRATEGY etc. etc. etc. Since you persist in not listening or using any reason, and just saying the same rehashed nonsense even after I used exactly what you are saying in practice, without an optimal marine setup, I don't think you have any argument at all.
How exactly is your "skill" going to let you hit 4 turrets at once, when they are too far away to hit?
How exactly is your "skill" going to let you dodge bullets? Sure, you can juke and jive, but a lightning fast celerity skulk will get hit by MOST of the turrets at best. An Adrenaline Onos with a hitbox significantly larger will do what?
How exactly is your "skill" going to prevent the marines from KNOWING HOW TO USE THEIR GUN? If he has a GL and a lick of aim, you won't even be able to run.
Ugh. Impermeable?