A Discussion On Fades
pieceofsoap
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9535Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9535Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Metabolize, Acid Rocket, and HA SG</div> In 2.0x, fades are adept at Hit and Run tactics. They can pop up inside a light armor squad, wreak havok, and dissapear in the before the marines have a chance to react. Fades are no longer the tanks they were in 1.0x, and so must be used with care. One thing that I find counter-intuitive, is that the standard upgrade for hit and run, Regeneration, is relatively useless for such a hit and run class. Why is this?
I had suspicions that Metabolize and Regen didnt work well together. I confirmed these suspicions with a stopwatch, by reducing a fade to minimal health (via Acid Rocket) and then restoring it to full health, via Metabolize, Regen, and a combination of the two. Here are the Results:
Metabolize Only: 25 Seconds*
Regen Only: 30 Seconds
Metabolize AND Regen: 25 Seconds*
*This fade had Adrenaline, so this is the shortest possible time with Metabolize
Clearly, Regeneration and Metabolize do not stack. If they did, it would take about 15 seconds to fully restore a fade, if it has room to breathe.
Once HA comes around, fades are in trouble.
Fade 50 res
HA Shotty Welder 35 res
HA HMG is the natural counter to the fade, able to end a fully carapaced fade, at weapon level 0, in a mere 28 shots, 14 shots if the HMG is level 3 and the fade doesnt have carapace. I am not complaining about this, it is the way things are meant to be. What becomes an issue, is HA and Shotgun. What is the counter to HA SG? I really dont know. For the price of 1 onos, 3 HA SG marines can be produced. If they work together, my money is on the marines. The shotgun is the marines Melee weapon, and at point blank, it is roughly twice as powerful as a fades swipe. It is a low tech weapon, that in the hands of a Light marine, is countered by Lerks. In the hands of HA, lerks are suddenly useless, as spores are useless, and spikes are almost harmless. Onii are a pricy investment, costing 3 times as much as HA Shotgun, and forced to engage them in melee. The shotgun is countered by ranged weapons, so here is a breakdown of Kharaa Ranged weapons, and their usefulness against HA SG.
Hive 0:
Spikes = mostly harmless vs HA.
Spit = A gamble vs Light armor.
Hive 1:
Parasite = 15 shots to kill a light armor, 50 shots minimum vs HA
Spores = Entirely useless vs HA
Hive 2:
Bilebomb = A great way for nub gorges to die
Umbra = Res for Res, a risky proposition. Requires a second Alien, so assume a second HA SG.
Stomp = The Onos's best shot, currently the best counter, res for res, assume 3 HA SG
Hive 3:
Web = A strong attack, requires backup
Acid Rocket = In my opinion, this is the best solution to the issue. See below.
It is very infrequent that you encounter Top Tier technology marines vs Top Tier technology Kharaa.
I find that the battles are usually top tier Marines vs Hive 2 Kharaa. The fade is a good counter for Jetpacks late in the game, however I find that this is due more to blink than Acid rocket.
I propose that EITHER Acid rocket be moved to Hive 2, to better combat HA SG, Or that Metabolize be allowed to stack with Regen.
I have heard that in the playtests, Acid rocket has been used to great effect in defending a hive, But now that it is hive 3, that really isnt necessary, as that is usually when the fight has usually been taken to the marines.
/me apolagizes for lack of coherence
On another note, <3 2.0!
I had suspicions that Metabolize and Regen didnt work well together. I confirmed these suspicions with a stopwatch, by reducing a fade to minimal health (via Acid Rocket) and then restoring it to full health, via Metabolize, Regen, and a combination of the two. Here are the Results:
Metabolize Only: 25 Seconds*
Regen Only: 30 Seconds
Metabolize AND Regen: 25 Seconds*
*This fade had Adrenaline, so this is the shortest possible time with Metabolize
Clearly, Regeneration and Metabolize do not stack. If they did, it would take about 15 seconds to fully restore a fade, if it has room to breathe.
Once HA comes around, fades are in trouble.
Fade 50 res
HA Shotty Welder 35 res
HA HMG is the natural counter to the fade, able to end a fully carapaced fade, at weapon level 0, in a mere 28 shots, 14 shots if the HMG is level 3 and the fade doesnt have carapace. I am not complaining about this, it is the way things are meant to be. What becomes an issue, is HA and Shotgun. What is the counter to HA SG? I really dont know. For the price of 1 onos, 3 HA SG marines can be produced. If they work together, my money is on the marines. The shotgun is the marines Melee weapon, and at point blank, it is roughly twice as powerful as a fades swipe. It is a low tech weapon, that in the hands of a Light marine, is countered by Lerks. In the hands of HA, lerks are suddenly useless, as spores are useless, and spikes are almost harmless. Onii are a pricy investment, costing 3 times as much as HA Shotgun, and forced to engage them in melee. The shotgun is countered by ranged weapons, so here is a breakdown of Kharaa Ranged weapons, and their usefulness against HA SG.
Hive 0:
Spikes = mostly harmless vs HA.
Spit = A gamble vs Light armor.
Hive 1:
Parasite = 15 shots to kill a light armor, 50 shots minimum vs HA
Spores = Entirely useless vs HA
Hive 2:
Bilebomb = A great way for nub gorges to die
Umbra = Res for Res, a risky proposition. Requires a second Alien, so assume a second HA SG.
Stomp = The Onos's best shot, currently the best counter, res for res, assume 3 HA SG
Hive 3:
Web = A strong attack, requires backup
Acid Rocket = In my opinion, this is the best solution to the issue. See below.
It is very infrequent that you encounter Top Tier technology marines vs Top Tier technology Kharaa.
I find that the battles are usually top tier Marines vs Hive 2 Kharaa. The fade is a good counter for Jetpacks late in the game, however I find that this is due more to blink than Acid rocket.
I propose that EITHER Acid rocket be moved to Hive 2, to better combat HA SG, Or that Metabolize be allowed to stack with Regen.
I have heard that in the playtests, Acid rocket has been used to great effect in defending a hive, But now that it is hive 3, that really isnt necessary, as that is usually when the fight has usually been taken to the marines.
/me apolagizes for lack of coherence
On another note, <3 2.0!
Comments
After a while, I came across a pack of marines. They decimated me. From that day on, I stopped evolving to fade and went for lerk instead. I've been supportin' my teammate alot more with the lerk.
Is it just me, or do the FADES really suck against a pack of lmg marines?
As for HA vs Fade,well....you aren't supposed to rush them in the first place.Blink along ceilings if you are in a large room and attack from the back.If all else fails,when you respawn just rush them with a couple of parasites and tag them.Then tell your teammates that there's an HA train marked on hivesight so they can obliterate it.
Or if you have 3 hives you could just use Xenocide <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for acid rockets....well Fades were supposed to be for hit and run so it was toned down a bit to fit the theme,plus having an acid rocket shot, blinking towards your target and ending them with a swipe is a very powerful tactic,could work against lone HAs.
But when you get HA trains....either get Onos or the whole team to work as a team or risk losing the whole game
If you can avoid being hit, you have a lot longer lifespan assaulting a group of marines. Its easier to do this as an onos when you can just tromp bases and regen huge clumps of HP - but its doable with fades too, picking a few spots in marine base where you can hide for cover (behind res nozzles, ccs, other buildings, etc) and just alternate blinking between these spots and wreaking havoc.
So you regenerate health, leave your energy for blink, and keep an entire marine team occupied. Doesn't work all the time. Or often.
-Aya
ps use celerity
I say if the marines can hold off the aliens for long enough to attain enough for a train of HA/SG, then they DESERVE to stomp all over the aliens. The aliens failed to do their job, and should have to pay more res for a generally equal lifeform. Just my 2 cents.
Usually, they put me down to 140. If I use Celerity and move a bit too fast, and dependant on if they have armor upgrades or not, sometimes 40.
When fighting packs, I usually blink behind them (only tap once) and claw them down to their ribs.
Usually after a lerk has thrown in a few clouds.
To me, fades aren't tanks. They're advanced skulks. Instead of wallclimbing and leap they have blink, which takes you wherever a skulk can go (vents and stuff, not counting rooftops and walls), but they have alot more health, meaning you can deal alot more damage before you blink away.
I also never get Regenration. Carapace is more vital for me. I'll gladly sacrifice 5 seconds for some damage reduction.
However, if I want to go real fast, I choose Regenration combined with my usual Celerity.
And I agree with Sligh.
IMO, the ability to passively heal while attacking a structure > extra damage absorption. It really all comes down to how you play Fade.
Skulks:
Hive 2: Skulks can now leap, which allows them to use more confrontational tactics, for when ambushing isnt an option.
Hive 3: Skulks can now xenocide, a threat to even HA trains.
Gorges:
Hive 2: Gorge becomes siege unit
Hive 3: Gorge gains powerful defensive abilities
Lerks
Hive 2: Lerk becomes siege unit
Hive 3: Lerk gains combat bonus
Fades:
Hive 2: Now in hit and run tactics, fade doesnt need to blink back to a hive or D chamber installation to regain HP. Note that blinking to a hive or D station is often faster than using metabolize
Hive 3: Fade becomes effective ranged unit
Onos:
Hive 2: Onos can now incapacitate large amounts of enemies
Hive 3: Onos Siege capabilities increased
Is it just me, or does Metabolize do a poor job of adding new functionality to the Fade?
Swipes: nice against LA targets, but then what isn't? Skulks can do about as well, and their lower health is offset by their higher speed and smaller hitbox.
Blink: the added mobility that keeps 1-hive skulks from totally outclassing 1-hive fades. It is hard to use effectively with the fast-switch restrictions, which can often leave you stalled or weaponless. Also, why doesn't a blinking fade have reduced visibility and a chance to have bullets pass through? They're supposed to be teleporting, not running/jumping kind of fast.
Metabolize: The nice thing is that it lets you get something other than regeneration for your defensive upgrade. The bad thing is that, at two hives, the improvement is nominal. A fade is still restricted to ambushing LA/LMG targets, giving him carapace+metabolize makes him better at this task but it doesn't allow him to do anything more important, like pose a serious threat to the shotties and HAs that will begin emerging at this tech level.
Acid Rocket: Finally. Everyone's favorite energy-gulping ranged attack. AR are still as handy as ever for taking out bases, but their huge energy cost makes it difficult to engage more than a few (free) LMG marines, much less HA/HMG rines. Unless the shotgun is getting switched over to a four-round capacity, AR should probably be either cheapened a little or brought back down to tier 2.
I think that the current propensity for victorious 3 hive alien teams to take a very long time finishing off a fortified marine base w/ a single resource node is really a good demonstration as to why AR should go back down to a 2-hive ability. In 1.04, the game often ended at two hives since AR was so effective at clearing marine bases. In 2.0, a focused team of 3-hive aliens struggle at accomplishing the same goal, with AR pretty well trumped by Ono and Lerk abilities. AR is clearly not a game-ending ability anymore, and fades would have far more of a purpose were this ability available at two hives.
As far as metabolize goes, it does have some advantages, but since it doesn't help the fade deal with its biggest threat, heavy weapons, I don't find it terribly useful given it's 2nd hive placement.
It already does pretty light damage to structures. Lighten it a bit more and put it at tier-2, maybe, but utterly neutering it versus structures would be devastating.
This gives the aliens more res, and the aliens should have to use more res, the marines less res and the marines need to use less.
I don't really have any new suggestions of my own, although I do endorse pieceofsoap's suggestions.
AR at hive two would bring us back to 1.04 where it meant the rapid demise of the marines. AR definately belongs as a hive 3 game ender, but I think to improve the fades midgame metabolize needs to be reworked.
Acid rockets DEVISTATE all enemies. LA marines become fodder, and HA gets hurt rather bad buy a few rockets due to the splash damage and range of AR.
Blink is one of the best ways to lead an assualt to end the game when they are Turret Farming and Using GLs to block the entracnces. Blink a few fades in and have gorges charge and kill the turrets and tf's.
Fades server a very nice midgame point, and for 50 res they are a good price. Aliens get res MUCH quicker than marines in 2.0. This is due to personal res for kills, more towers in the average game, and cheaper towers in general.
So while they are expensive, they do excellent damage per swipe, attack fast and in a group with umbra support can take on HA pretty good.
Onos is the "direct" counter to HA, so of course its going to do better, but Fades seem to be a really nice equivalent to a midgame marines with HMG's or shottie's. They can be killed by a midgame marine group, but they can also kill an entire squad of marines pretty easy as well.
Everyone is saying how they lack midgame usefullness, but in they ARE the midgame unit for aliens. With 5 res nodes in a decent size game, you can go fade every 4 minutes or so.
Its all about being equal guys. Yah, I know that a 10 res marine with a shotgun can take a 50 res fade, but a 50 res fade can take out a lot of non shotgunner mariens REALLY easily..and this puts the marines back just as much as a 50 res fade puts the aliens back.
Fades are not tanks, but they ARE heavy infantry...and server their purpose midgame, early game, and late game really well.
I know of many players that play fade excusivly the entire game, because of their skill's with one.
Passive regen definately works while you are attacking...I take it all the time. I'm not sure why meta doesn't stack with regen though.
The problems with fades is that:
A: You need movement chambers. If the team goes sensory first, you're pretty much going to have to wait til the third hive to get that adrenaline upgrade. Defense chamber almost always comes second.
B: Are outclassed by lerks/skulks for most of the game's critical moments. Once aliens have all three hives and enough res towers to get the higher evolutions, the game is pretty much won as is. Fades are only good early game for taking out undefended turret farms, and that's only if they have two hives for metabolize.
Other than that, fades rock(et, heh heh). It's just sad to see that the "middle-class, worker alien" is only good at the end of the game. They do make excellent hive defenders against HA/Shotty rushes, though. Blink to some lerk spot and range them with acid rocket while being healed by regen/hive. They'll never hit you with the shotguns and you'll heal over it in an instant anyway.
Metabolize Only: 25 Seconds*
Regen Only: 30 Seconds
Metabolize AND Regen: 25 Seconds*
*This fade had Adrenaline, so this is the shortest possible time with Metabolize
Clearly, Regeneration and Metabolize do not stack. If they did, it would take about 15 seconds to fully restore a fade, if it has room to breathe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to hit metabolize after every "tic" of regen.
It would of course be easier if they just auto stacked.
After the early game, comes the midgame. I find that this segment tends to take longest amount of time, and that often, marine teams work hard at preventing the Kharaa from entering the late game, by locking down the third hive. This means that Midgame Fades are forced to keep using early game tactics, against ever stronger opponents.
This brings us into the aspect of technology, and counters. In the early game, each team has their technology, and the enemy team has its counters to their technology. If one team gets a technological advantage, their opponent must tech up, so as not to be forced to fight with outdated tactics. The problem with 2 hive fade, is that it is forced to use 1 hive tactics.
Metabolise does not introduce any new tactics, it simply re-defines the locations that a Fade can heal up, after using its hive 1 abilities.
Fades REALLY need adrenaline to be effective at hit and run. They need to be able to blink into a pack of marines, cause some damage and get back out again FAST, not running out of energy in the process.
Fades do well with any of the 3 movement abilities. Because swipe uses only a small amount of energy, adrenaline isnt the only option.
Celerity:
Some people love celerity fade, it makes fades able to run down and out-maneuver marines in toe to toe combat.
Silence:
Personally, this is my favorite Movement attribute for fade. With full silence, I become Ninja Fade. Marines dont know Im coming until one of their teammates is dead, and even then, they often dont know it.
Adrenaline:
If you intend to use blink to cover ground like a madman, this is for you. For when you blink even short distances, such as from one marine to the next, instead of using celerity for combat quickness. Also useful for healing after a battle, and Acid rocket.
Well, I checked this out, and Metabolize does stack with Defence Chambers, hives, and I believe Healspray aswell. Still odd that it doesnt stack with regen.
Lagger, you say this is a bug that will be fixed in 2.1? w00t!
Errr... Yes?
Because they should do?
So it will stack now?
WOOHOO
I always wait untill regen heals a bit before pressing meta so it kinda stacks :/
I'm glad i don't have to time it in 2.01