<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBONE+Aug 25 2003, 01:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Aug 25 2003, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->show me what 'fact' my opinion is baseless on<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If there is a large wealth of people who have proven to do extremely well as fade in the mid to late game stage, and your opinion is that fade sucks in mid to late game stage, then wouldn't your opinion be incorrect? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, all I've seen are people cutting down light marines with LMGs.
BTW: That 'Hamboner' was a typo, and a creative one at that.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I truly weep for the rinse-and-repeat cycle of stupidity.
The Fade is evil. Pure, satanic, straight from the worst bowel of hell where you have that nightmare, you know, the one with the shoes, evil. The sheer fact that so many players currently say the Fade isn't any good is a testament to the fact that you need to practise at it.
This is a <b>good</b> thing, and implies balance. If Joe Nub can take Fade, then own several decent marines, it's imbalanced. If it rewards tactical foresight, situational awareness & sheer ferocity, it's balanced. It means there's a curve to be had, hence why a lot of talented players don't play say, Onos, because the learning curve plateau's very quickly.
Drop crying about the Fade, he's fine.
As for the topic itself, Lerk bite. I have to disagree. The Lerk bite was removed BECAUSE it was possible to kill a marine before he could react. Ask any of the Warservers regulars, I specialised in it. And DROPPED it, because it was simply a joke how easy it was. I miss the bite, because it let me own entire groups, but I don't at the same time because I can recognize that it made the situation <b>too hard on the marines.</b>
If a game rewards your skills, it's balanced. If there's (apart from obvious no chancers, such as Onos vs unupgraded marine) lots of times where you simply <b>cannot</b> survive, this implies not. Aliens are currently a little too harsh, and we can only hope that 2.1a doesn't go the 1.04 route, where the initial 'omgz0r aliens are too good nerf nerf!1oneone f4!' crowd result in marines owning every alien team for the next 6 months.
Interesting. I run out of energy sooooo fast with Blink. It's nigh unto useless for me except to speed up getting around the map a bit. And that's with lvl 3 adren.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Monkeybonk, I might remind you that you've already been temp-suspended once. That was for your attitude, which does not appear to have changed... and next time, it's not going to be just a week off.
I've watched you hijack thread after thread, sometimes in direct opposition to requests from moderators or admins, to complain about the Fade. Some people agree with you; others disagree. We are not telling you not to voice your opinion; we are telling you to not voice your argument in every thread you post in. Need I point out the "NS 2.1 OMG" thread, which has become 9 pages of Fade argument because of the second post in the thread - your post?
Consider this your last warning: 1) Stop hijacking threads. 2) Stop attacking other posters. _______
Regarding the Fade: I'm terrible with it. In my hands, it *is* a waste of 50 RPs. But seeing one still inspires terror in me, because in the hands of someone who *is* effective with it, it's lethal. We can do one of three things with it. First, we can beef it up. That would make skilled players absolutely godly with it, so that's out. Second, we can dumb it down - make it easier to use, but make it less dangerous to prevent it from being overpowered. That would bore the skilled players out of their skulls.
Lastly, we can leave it as is. Some players, like me, may never learn to use it well, and will be better off using other classes. Do you expect to be equally capable with every weapon in CS or DoD? No. You find your favorite and you stick with it. Think of it the same way. Just because it's "better" doesn't mean it's better for you. Give me 50 RPs, I'll gorge or lerk before I go fade. _______
Again: there is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion. There *is* something wrong with hijacking threads and attacking other posters. <span style='color:white'>Cut it out.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Monkeybonk, I might remind you that you've already been temp-suspended once. That was for your attitude, which does not appear to have changed... and next time, it's not going to be just a week off.
I've watched you hijack thread after thread, sometimes in direct opposition to requests from moderators or admins, to complain about the Fade. Some people agree with you; others disagree. We are not telling you not to voice your opinion; we are telling you to not voice your argument in every thread you post in. Need I point out the "NS 2.1 OMG" thread, which has become 9 pages of Fade argument because of the second post in the thread - your post?
Consider this your last warning: 1) Stop hijacking threads. 2) Stop attacking other posters. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, my attitude is fine around normal people. Then these elitest pigscome in and spew this rhetoric that because they're always right. Did I start the flaming? No. Hambone's simply trolling for flames, trying to instigate an attack. HE should be suspended, NOT ME.
I've presented every one of my posts with facts and reason, not "Because I'm good with it, you suck, therefore you should be ignored, and you're wrong."
Check most of those threads, and even this one: I didn't bring it up, and in the other threads, OTHER people bring it up, usually even mentioning my name.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regarding the Fade: I'm terrible with it. In my hands, it *is* a waste of 50 RPs. But seeing one still inspires terror in me, because in the hands of someone who *is* effective with it, it's lethal. We can do one of three things with it. First, we can beef it up. That would make skilled players absolutely godly with it, so that's out. Second, we can dumb it down - make it easier to use, but make it less dangerous to prevent it from being overpowered. That would bore the skilled players out of their skulls.
Lastly, we can leave it as is. Some players, like me, may never learn to use it well, and will be better off using other classes. Do you expect to be equally capable with every weapon in CS or DoD? No. You find your favorite and you stick with it. Think of it the same way. Just because it's "better" doesn't mean it's better for you. Give me 50 RPs, I'll gorge or lerk before I go fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, but there's a flaw: Skulks. Skulks are pretty brainless. Anyone can really kill with a skulk. Yet some people can go and kill an entire marine TEAM in their base and eat an IP before going down (I've dont it ONCE). Powerful? Yes. Hard to do? Very. And it wasn't just a sucky marine team.
The fade suffers another way. Certainly you can do a 'superskulk' on the marine team like I described above. But it's much easier to do, especially against vanilla marines. However, the fade costs 50 resources, and lacks any sort of natural stealth abilities. The skulk can be used as a suicide in-your-face fighter, and kamikaze, or an abush. The fade MUST be hit and run. It costs WAY to much to just throw away, has no stealth capability at all for ambushing, etc. Most people will suck with a fade, and a few are good.
The skulk, gorge, and lerk are early-game critters. If you're terrible with a battle gorge, you can be support, or you might be good with a lerk or a skulk, but really stink at ambushing. It depends. The fade suffers from being stuck in ONE role and ONE role only. It has no flexibility, nothing really original, etc. Metabolize was thrown in at the last minute because old metabolize was bugged up. Furthermore, it can be said (Quite easilly) that the hive1 abilities are weak, for fighting weak marines. Hive 2 abilities increase in strength, and offer new tactics. Moreso with hive 3. This way, you can fight marines at all tech levels, and each style of play becomes dynamically different. The fade only has one attack and one utility at hive 1. The fade is excellent for fighting level0 marines and level 1 marines. (For 50 resources the attack should do around 90 damage, though.)
The problem arises when the marines get level 1.5-2 upgrades, and maybe occasionally an HMG: The marine's middle game. The other aliens get bilebomb, a few people are going onos, and you have umbra to protect other aliens FROM said upgraded weaponry. However, the fade doen't get another ability to expand his skills to be capable of fighting level 2 marines and HMGs. He's stuck using early-game tactics against mid-game marines. Simply put: The fade needs some sort of UNIQUE hive 2 feature to both expand on what he can do, and offer new tactics. Instead, metabolize is the ANTI-tactic. It encourages conservative fighting and hiding in a corner like a beat puppy. In fact, it's the only hive 2 ability the aliens have that doesn't bring out new tactics, doesn't 'counter' marine mid-game, but just staples the critter into more hive 1 tactics, is Metabolize.
Devour turns Onos into hit and run and an anti-HA (Read: MIDGAME) unit. Leap allows the skulk to ambush VERY effectively, as well as cross great distances, so the big guns have a harder time tracking him. Bilebomb allows gorges to fight at marine outposts or assault the main base. Slows/counters the marine resflow, crippling thier future playstyle. Umbra counters bullets, meaning weapon upgrades and HMGs are not very effective at all.
All of these either expand on the alien's abilities, allow a counter to midgame, or both.
I've probably only killed 5 or 6 HA marines as a fade. I think every one was armed with a grenade launcher, or was out of ammo.
About the fade, it is quickly becoming my favorite class. You just have to realize that it's not longer the 1.04 fade that you may be used to. It's not a tank any more. Blink in, watch your health, get a few swipes, watch your health, blink out. With carapace/adrenaline/SoF, it makes the (imo) perfect assaulter. I love it for those end games, where you blink in, and hit a crucial building (while an onos/other alien is attacking from the front, so the marines are distracted), such as an obs, or arms lab, etc., and blink out. The biggest weak point as a fade, I feel, are shotguns. But if you have 3 hives, then that's what acid rockets are for.
I'm normally gorge/skulk only until we have at the very least 2 hives, so I normally am up against fully upgraded marines, or even heavy armor marines. You just have to keep a close eye on your health.
And about the Lerk replacement (back on topic, sort of), just a suggestion if you didn't know, if you have 3 hives, try primal screaming, then fast switch to spikes. Spikes now do 20 damage while primal scream is active, and it shoot much faster. It's like an HMG for the lerk <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
i dont really find the need of fade, he takes more shots but when the marines have shottys there are just as good as a skulk nearly so u might as well use a skulk but better yet just kill em with lerk. lerk makes stupid comms waste lots of res on meds early game and also if he dont use meds u can kill LA marines easy and they are great distraction that can get any where on map easy.
the thing when marines get shotguns out there isnt really much difference to skulk and fade. although one funny thing is with skulk if u have celerity u are really hard to hit, i have taken down 3 LA shotty marines with skulk in one go with celerity. a celerity skulk is like a fade using blink apart from it doesnt use energy and u are alot smaller target.
when u look at killing times skulk and fade are exactly the same, it takes 2 hits for a skulk and a fade to kill lvl0 armour lvl1-2 its 3 and lvl3 its 4 hits. that extra 5 dmg doesnt really mean anythin. looking at the marines hitting aliens. well if the marines use shottys its 1 shot and the skulk is down and normaly 2 for fade add on the fact that skulk is alot harder target to hit with celerity i take skulk. although in the face of lmgs fade is better but when shottys are been dished out id say skulk is better.
actualy i have neva really noticed this but if u take away the lmg factor fades have turned into a base attacking alien they are pretty weak against marines when shottys are been dished out. so, to me anyway fade has lost its warrior alien class type and become a weak siege tool instead.
I have heard that ppl are saying blink (well run as it is now) is been altered so u go invisable when u do it like it should be. although i have not seen this in changelogs. I think his attack should be altered, really his attack should be more powerful than onos. when u think about it what is going to kill more, 2 spikes that just rip through metal and tissue and tear u to shreds at fast speed or a big horn with lots of power behind it.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--[mahn]sawce+Aug 25 2003, 03:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([mahn]sawce @ Aug 25 2003, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> About the fade, it is quickly becoming my favorite class. You just have to realize that it's not longer the 1.04 fade that you may be used to. It's not a tank any more. Blink in, watch your health, get a few swipes, watch your health, blink out. With carapace/adrenaline/SoF, it makes the (imo) perfect assaulter. I love it for those end games, where you blink in, and hit a crucial building (while an onos/other alien is attacking from the front, so the marines are distracted), such as an obs, or arms lab, etc., and blink out. The biggest weak point as a fade, I feel, are shotguns. But if you have 3 hives, then that's what acid rockets are for.
I'm normally gorge/skulk only until we have at the very least 2 hives, so I normally am up against fully upgraded marines, or even heavy armor marines. You just have to keep a close eye on your health.
And about the Lerk replacement (back on topic, sort of), just a suggestion if you didn't know, if you have 3 hives, try primal screaming, then fast switch to spikes. Spikes now do 20 damage while primal scream is active, and it shoot much faster. It's like an HMG for the lerk <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with Monkeybonk, as a marine I've slaughtered countless of fades (mostly with my lmg) The reason was that fades just cant hit me when I'm jumping/dodging without celerity. Also, if you have 3 hives you'll be using acid rocket almost exclusively.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Regarding Fades: it seems the Fade playstyle isn't for you. I know it isn't for me, and I'm ok with that. It plays a very useful role in the hands of someone who's good with it.
Regarding HAMBONE: he is not your concern. He has also received a warning, which is also not your concern. You reported his post; let it go at that.
Hambone isn't "elitist pig". He's a pretty cool guy who knows what he's doing and what he's talking about.
I don't play on the HAM server too much because, to be honest, most of the players there are simply better then me. When I do play there as a marine, Fades are the worst thing there. I'm more afraid of them then Onos. When he says that one good Fade can stop marine expansion, he's not joking. I agree that Fades lack a defining role, but they're in no way, shape or form underpowered.
Note: Stomp is the 2 hive Onos attack, not devour.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How could this be changed? Well, you could remove blink from the weapons, and put meta at hive 1. Instead of having to switch back and forth, have it so that a double tap makes you blink. This helps in a few ways: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good point Snidley, in 1.04 I couldn't use blink as a hit and run tactic because I have a wheel mouse and it takes ages for me to select blink, I only used it to catch up with skulks when they were rushing the rine base. Never the less, I still owned with it without blinking. Do you skilled players use a bind for blink or do you have very fast fingers? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--REDEYE+Aug 25 2003, 03:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (REDEYE @ Aug 25 2003, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How could this be changed? Well, you could remove blink from the weapons, and put meta at hive 1. Instead of having to switch back and forth, have it so that a double tap makes you blink. This helps in a few ways: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good point Snidley, in 1.04 I couldn't use blink as a hit and run tactic because I have a wheel mouse and it takes ages for me to select blink, I only used it to catch up with skulks when they were rushing the rine base. Never the less, I still owned with it without blinking. Do you skilled players use a bind for blink or do you have very fast fingers? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hud_fastswitch 1 and have slot2 bound to a key nearby your movement keys. Works like a charm.
Edit: and fast fingers are good too <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
one thing thats is gonner be interesting too see is marines are gonner have an easier time in 2.1, they shall be able to upgrade faster we will see lvl3 wep and armour more and come in quicker. fades arnt gonner be able to handle that.
another funny thing is if u think of it as in res. marines can get 5 shottys for the price of 1 fade. ok 5 marines working together could kill 2 fades if they all shot once. looking at onos as well, if all the 5 shottys went off at same time onos dies. although i think onos hitboxes are abit messed, i have ran around in a room as onos and a hmg didnt hit me for ages.
I dont get it when ppl do great with skulk and stuff but they find fade crap, but some find good. it could be just the 50 res price or some ppl find they can do the same role a fade can with skulk. I have played tons of games where fade has neva been touched. the only time u see it been used abit is for assaulting bases with acid rocket at 3rd hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--The Finch+Aug 25 2003, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Aug 25 2003, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note: Stomp is the 2 hive Onos attack, not devour. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Woops. Either way, they compliment each other well <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Blink travels slower then 'leap'. I've tested about 15 times in a hallway and leap got me to the end about .3 seconds before blink. About the only saving grace blink has is that it has very high acceleration and there really is no 'minimum' stamina, so you can just hold it down and kinda run around in circles. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Worth noting: Blink allows precision, leap does not. With leap you travel a set distance. With blink it's possible to do fancy manuvers, in fact with slower speed it's actually feasible to use the high speed to circle strafe marines(with practice of course). However, perhaps a celerity skulk is the same speed as a blinking fade. Maybe blinking fade is still moderately faster.
<!--QuoteBegin--ViolenceJack+Aug 25 2003, 03:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ViolenceJack @ Aug 25 2003, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> one thing thats is gonner be interesting too see is marines are gonner have an easier time in 2.1, they shall be able to upgrade faster we will see lvl3 wep and armour more and come in quicker. fades arnt gonner be able to handle that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think in my first post in here I said: The majority of the reason people say 'Fades pwn' is because the marines are just getting squashed anyway, and that in 2.1, the flaws would become more apparent.
Metabolize allows the fade to stay out in the field -indefinitely-. The fade never has to come back for healing unless he only has hive 1 abilities. It has been mentioned before but i'll say it again, with the fade you can have carapace and a regeneration-like ability. Regen and Carapace - two of the best defence upgrades.
As a skulk without regen, you have to go back to the hive for healing or go on some sort of kamikaze rush which, graciously gives the marines res.
So why is the fade worth this 50 res?
Well, you can do a bunch of damage with a fade and a skulk but in the end, its usually the skulk that ends up dead. Skulk dead = Marine res++ Now the skulk could rack up more res from his kills before he dies but still, the skulk's death is beneficial to the marines.
Now the fade, he can cause the same amount of damage or more but he can blink away and heal - rather than kamikaze. So now, not only does the fade get lots of res but the marines are being starved of their res for kills.
Next, taking out resource towers, and for the sake of this discussion lets assume you are going at this solo. As a free skulk, how are you going to take out that electrified rt? It takes forever with regen and without it you are going to need some backup. The fade? His extra hitpoints means that you can take out an undefended electrified rt in two or three runs. As soon as you get two hives the fade can do it in one run as he can metabolize. What does the free skulk get at hive 2? leap. That leap won't help you take out that rt. I guess you could have the lone gorge bilebomb an rt but he is a sitting duck if any marines happen to try to rescue that node.
Now lets examine the fade in terms of stopping jetpacking marines. At hive 1: The skulk has to wait for the jp'er to land or get lucky on the walls somehow to stop the jetpacker. The fade can quickly blink up and get a swipe in and repeat. At hive 2: The skulk gets leap and this makes it easier to take down jetpackers. The fade's blink ability is still more controllable than leap and thus is still more effective at swiping those jetpackers out of the air. At hive 3: Both the skulk and the fade have pretty effective attacks against the jetpacker, acid rocket and xenocide. If the marines have armor upgrades, a single xenocide will not kill a marine even at point blank range, plus this attack takes the life of the skulk. A fade can rocket the marine out of the sky, with adrenaline he can shoot 8 rockets in a row ( thats 50x8 = 400 damage in one volley).
No alienlife form is invincible, but i'm willing to bet that because of the versatility of the fade mentioned above plus the fact that skulks die faster than fades means that the you will cause at least 50 resource points of damage to the marines before dieing. (Remember, in 2.0 an electrified rt is itself 50 res)
Shotguns don't necessarily negate fades in my experience. Take carapace as your defense chamber upgrade and you can take two (I think) shotgun blasts without dying.
I used to use regeneration fade but I have found that carapace fades last quite a bit longer. (I don't know that statistics but I can mess up an extra marine or two using it.)
A very fun thing to do as a fade which carries over to the lerk bite / fade analogy is to blink up to a nice high hiding spot. When a few marines come into the room, blink down into the middle of them swiping happily away.
*EDIT*
Could somebody post a demo of a REALLY good fade at work? I think that this would encourage more people to give the fade a chance..
<!--QuoteBegin--lazygamer+Aug 25 2003, 03:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lazygamer @ Aug 25 2003, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Blink travels slower then 'leap'. I've tested about 15 times in a hallway and leap got me to the end about .3 seconds before blink. About the only saving grace blink has is that it has very high acceleration and there really is no 'minimum' stamina, so you can just hold it down and kinda run around in circles. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Worth noting: Blink allows precision, leap does not. With leap you travel a set distance. With blink it's possible to do fancy manuvers, in fact with slower speed it's actually feasible to use the high speed to circle strafe marines(with practice of course). However, perhaps a celerity skulk is the same speed as a blinking fade. Maybe blinking fade is still moderately faster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure how you can say that: Blink and leap work almost exactly the same, with these differences:
- Leap gives you a much longer period of 'speed boost', and an upwards boost as well. - Leap is a 'one shot' that is far less stamina draining per meter covered. However, you can't really 'jog' with it liek you can with blink. - Easier to get into vents as a skulk then as a fade. - Leap can be stopped in midair, and allows easy direction changes (Leap feels more... 'floaty') - Leap can cause damage.
Metabolize allows the fade to stay out in the field -indefinitely-. The fade never has to come back for healing unless he only has hive 1 abilities. It has been mentioned before but i'll say it again, with the fade you can have carapace and a regeneration-like ability. Regen and Carapace - two of the best defence upgrades.
As a skulk without regen, you have to go back to the hive for healing or go on some sort of kamikaze rush which, graciously gives the marines res.
So why is the fade worth this 50 res?
Well, you can do a bunch of damage with a fade and a skulk but in the end, its usually the skulk that ends up dead. Skulk dead = Marine res++ Now the skulk could rack up more res from his kills before he dies but still, the skulk's death is beneficial to the marines.
Now the fade, he can cause the same amount of damage or more but he can blink away and heal - rather than kamikaze. So now, not only does the fade get lots of res but the marines are being starved of their res for kills. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Level 3 regeneration skulk:
10+10+10+2+3 (Marine res if you die) = 35 resources total
Level 3 carapace + regen fade:
50+35+10+10+10+2 = 107 resources total.
:/ I dunno, I think I'd rather have a new weapon then what's basically a VERY watered-down less-useful spinoff of a 2 res upgrade...
I agree with you here, but it's a moot point, simply because electricity is supposed to be a counter to light early-game units. Eventually SOMETHIGN will need to take it out (Usually it's an Onos). And a skulk + gorge backup can easilly waste a res, even w/o bilebomb.
Blink up and swipe? Seriously, this is pretty weak. Not to mention: If the marines have Jetpacks and you're at hive 1 still, you pretty much have lost. Furthermore a gorge and lerk is better at taking out JPers then the fade is.
As for the hive 2, leap is MUCH more controllable then blink, because 1) It won't 'glue' you to the floor if you don't jump first, 2) You have an arcing trajectory, meaning that for a quick loss of stamina, you can cover MUCH more ground then the fade, as well as arc OVER things like turrets and marines and get behind. A fade has to fly in a straight line, which takes much more stamina, and he will usually either fall short, or get to his target without stamina.
Finally, for Hive 3, and I digress, sure acid-rocket is great for taking out JPers. But you mentioned adreneline. So now that we're playing 'what-if's, guess how long it takes for a level 3 JPer to waste your fade with a shotgun? 2 hits? You'd have to be shooting the JPer from across the viaduct hive. Furthermore, most of the acid rocket damage will be coming from splash, JPs go fast, I ain't gonna believe you if you say you hit him with every one) so it'll take longer to kill him.
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Aug 25 2003, 04:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Aug 25 2003, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mismatched quote tags. It's quite annoying. /: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> At first I thought I was able to edit the entire page <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dont think u can compare it like that monkeybonk as u have ur own res for aliens. unless u went gorge and made all the chambers thats more res put on it.
at 50 res i would do 3 things. 1 would be go gorge and build abit, 2 would be go lerk and kill lots and lots of LA marines, 3 would be save 50 res either go around with the help of lerks and light defended outposts and kill marines. if thats not an option id kill marines till got 100 res, i wouldnt care if i died lots thats what a skulk does. any guns or anything they bought with the res they got off me i would gobble up with onos.
well i consider those options better than going fade and then risking the chance of a few marines having shotguns and dieing. redem dont help, 1 shell and u redem but 2 hit at same time u dead.
i think we can safely say there is somin wrong with the fade. its not very n00b friendly almost every one on any side of any argument on the fade has said u gotta be good or need alot of skill and stuff. plus there is a thing about it not been worth 50 res although the ppl that think its fine obviously are good with the fade, or think of res abit different to others.
Ok heres my opinion on the fade. First off I would like to say that I am a VERY good fade and usually end a game with a minimum of 40 kills or so (yes I have demos of myself), mostly due to the fade. So please don't be screaming newb, or you suck or anything like that at my opinions.
Fade simply owns in the early game. You can kill squads of 5 marines in one go if you blink properly (you barely ever take any damage while blinking, cept from maybe turrets). However, if the marines get armor/weapon upgrades it becomes increasingly difficult to be fade.
When you hit mid game (by mid game I mean like when marines get level 2-3 weapons and armor..... not sure what you would consider mid game) it becomes substantialy more difficult to kill them because of several reasons.
(note: these apply to skulks as well but we aren't talking about skulks) (note2: these numbers are based on averages, assuming everyones skill stays about the same and barring any massive human error)
1.) armor upgrade 1: increases fade kill time per marine by 50 (from level 0) percent.... esentialy takes 150 percent of the time to kill a marine than it would to kill a unupgraded marine.
2.) weapon upgrade 1: Increases damage that marines can deal to fades while it is beating on one of their buddys... coupled with armor upgrade 1 this makes it even tougher on the fade seeing as how it takes longer per marine to kill but also you are recieving more damage while you are doing it.
3.) armor upgrade 2: increases fade kill time per marine by (about) 33 percent (from level 1). Esentialy takes 200 percent of the time to kill a marine than it would to kill a unupgraded marine.
4.) weapon upgrade 2: same as weapon upgrade 1 only fade takes even longer to kill each marine and takes even more damage while doing it.
5.) armor upgrade 3: increases fade kill time by 25 percent (from level 2).... takes 250 percent of the time to kill each marine as compaired to a unupgraded marine.
6.) weapon upgrade 3: same as the other weapon upgrades just the fade is takeing even more damage for a even more extended period of time.
Another example of how a fade is really hurt by armor/weapon upgrades.
Lets say that a fade can kill 4 out of 5 unupgraded marines before he has to run. This means that at armor level 2 (takes twice as long per kill) the fade will be able to kill 2 out of the five marines before he has to run (if they are the same marines and its the same fade). This is considering that the marines still have level 0 weapons. If the marines actually have both level 2 armor and weapons the fade probably will only be able to kill 1 marine (4 swipes to kill, if he actually manages to land every single swipe). Basicaly you can see that if a fade is faceing the same 5 marines and they have level 3 weapons and armor he may not even be able to kill 1 of them before haveing to run (this is if he wants to live).
My suggestion to make the fade more effective in the mid game would be to simply increase its swipe damage to 100. It would still take 2 swipes to kill a unupgraded marines but it would also take 2 swipes to kill a armor 1 marine. 3 swipes for a armor 2 and (I think) 4 for a armor 3. I don't know exactly how much damage armor absorbs or any of that, I am just talking out of experience from hitting people with the fade. If someone could do the calculations for me and get the exact number of 100 damage swipes for a level 3 armor I would appreciate it.
Basicaly we can see that the fade would own in the early game... killing each marine in 2 swipes.... however, if marines even get armor upgrade 1 or 2 it severly decreases fade effectiveness. I think alot of the arguments between people come from not knowing what part of the game each other are talking about.
Comments
If there is a large wealth of people who have proven to do extremely well as fade in the mid to late game stage, and your opinion is that fade sucks in mid to late game stage, then wouldn't your opinion be incorrect? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, all I've seen are people cutting down light marines with LMGs.
BTW: That 'Hamboner' was a typo, and a creative one at that.
Fade <claw slash> Marine1
Fade <claw slash> Marine2
Fade <claw slash> Marine3
Fade <claw slash> Marine4
Tell me it's not an effective unit with repeated kills like that, over and over again. No light squad is safe.
My fade is fast, foo!
The Fade is evil. Pure, satanic, straight from the worst bowel of hell where you have that nightmare, you know, the one with the shoes, evil. The sheer fact that so many players currently say the Fade isn't any good is a testament to the fact that you need to practise at it.
This is a <b>good</b> thing, and implies balance. If Joe Nub can take Fade, then own several decent marines, it's imbalanced. If it rewards tactical foresight, situational awareness & sheer ferocity, it's balanced. It means there's a curve to be had, hence why a lot of talented players don't play say, Onos, because the learning curve plateau's very quickly.
Drop crying about the Fade, he's fine.
As for the topic itself, Lerk bite. I have to disagree. The Lerk bite was removed BECAUSE it was possible to kill a marine before he could react. Ask any of the Warservers regulars, I specialised in it. And DROPPED it, because it was simply a joke how easy it was. I miss the bite, because it let me own entire groups, but I don't at the same time because I can recognize that it made the situation <b>too hard on the marines.</b>
If a game rewards your skills, it's balanced. If there's (apart from obvious no chancers, such as Onos vs unupgraded marine) lots of times where you simply <b>cannot</b> survive, this implies not. Aliens are currently a little too harsh, and we can only hope that 2.1a doesn't go the 1.04 route, where the initial 'omgz0r aliens are too good nerf nerf!1oneone f4!' crowd result in marines owning every alien team for the next 6 months.
- Shockie.
I've watched you hijack thread after thread, sometimes in direct opposition to requests from moderators or admins, to complain about the Fade. Some people agree with you; others disagree. We are not telling you not to voice your opinion; we are telling you to not voice your argument in every thread you post in. Need I point out the "NS 2.1 OMG" thread, which has become 9 pages of Fade argument because of the second post in the thread - your post?
Consider this your last warning:
1) Stop hijacking threads.
2) Stop attacking other posters.
_______
Regarding the Fade: I'm terrible with it. In my hands, it *is* a waste of 50 RPs. But seeing one still inspires terror in me, because in the hands of someone who *is* effective with it, it's lethal. We can do one of three things with it. First, we can beef it up. That would make skilled players absolutely godly with it, so that's out. Second, we can dumb it down - make it easier to use, but make it less dangerous to prevent it from being overpowered. That would bore the skilled players out of their skulls.
Lastly, we can leave it as is. Some players, like me, may never learn to use it well, and will be better off using other classes. Do you expect to be equally capable with every weapon in CS or DoD? No. You find your favorite and you stick with it. Think of it the same way. Just because it's "better" doesn't mean it's better for you. Give me 50 RPs, I'll gorge or lerk before I go fade.
_______
Again: there is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion. There *is* something wrong with hijacking threads and attacking other posters. <span style='color:white'>Cut it out.</span>
I've watched you hijack thread after thread, sometimes in direct opposition to requests from moderators or admins, to complain about the Fade. Some people agree with you; others disagree. We are not telling you not to voice your opinion; we are telling you to not voice your argument in every thread you post in. Need I point out the "NS 2.1 OMG" thread, which has become 9 pages of Fade argument because of the second post in the thread - your post?
Consider this your last warning:
1) Stop hijacking threads.
2) Stop attacking other posters.
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First of all, my attitude is fine around normal people. Then these elitest pigscome in and spew this rhetoric that because they're always right. Did I start the flaming? No. Hambone's simply trolling for flames, trying to instigate an attack. HE should be suspended, NOT ME.
I've presented every one of my posts with facts and reason, not "Because I'm good with it, you suck, therefore you should be ignored, and you're wrong."
Check most of those threads, and even this one: I didn't bring it up, and in the other threads, OTHER people bring it up, usually even mentioning my name.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regarding the Fade: I'm terrible with it. In my hands, it *is* a waste of 50 RPs. But seeing one still inspires terror in me, because in the hands of someone who *is* effective with it, it's lethal. We can do one of three things with it. First, we can beef it up. That would make skilled players absolutely godly with it, so that's out. Second, we can dumb it down - make it easier to use, but make it less dangerous to prevent it from being overpowered. That would bore the skilled players out of their skulls.
Lastly, we can leave it as is. Some players, like me, may never learn to use it well, and will be better off using other classes. Do you expect to be equally capable with every weapon in CS or DoD? No. You find your favorite and you stick with it. Think of it the same way. Just because it's "better" doesn't mean it's better for you. Give me 50 RPs, I'll gorge or lerk before I go fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, but there's a flaw: Skulks. Skulks are pretty brainless. Anyone can really kill with a skulk. Yet some people can go and kill an entire marine TEAM in their base and eat an IP before going down (I've dont it ONCE). Powerful? Yes. Hard to do? Very. And it wasn't just a sucky marine team.
The fade suffers another way. Certainly you can do a 'superskulk' on the marine team like I described above. But it's much easier to do, especially against vanilla marines. However, the fade costs 50 resources, and lacks any sort of natural stealth abilities. The skulk can be used as a suicide in-your-face fighter, and kamikaze, or an abush. The fade MUST be hit and run. It costs WAY to much to just throw away, has no stealth capability at all for ambushing, etc. Most people will suck with a fade, and a few are good.
The skulk, gorge, and lerk are early-game critters. If you're terrible with a battle gorge, you can be support, or you might be good with a lerk or a skulk, but really stink at ambushing. It depends. The fade suffers from being stuck in ONE role and ONE role only. It has no flexibility, nothing really original, etc. Metabolize was thrown in at the last minute because old metabolize was bugged up. Furthermore, it can be said (Quite easilly) that the hive1 abilities are weak, for fighting weak marines. Hive 2 abilities increase in strength, and offer new tactics. Moreso with hive 3. This way, you can fight marines at all tech levels, and each style of play becomes dynamically different. The fade only has one attack and one utility at hive 1. The fade is excellent for fighting level0 marines and level 1 marines. (For 50 resources the attack should do around 90 damage, though.)
The problem arises when the marines get level 1.5-2 upgrades, and maybe occasionally an HMG: The marine's middle game. The other aliens get bilebomb, a few people are going onos, and you have umbra to protect other aliens FROM said upgraded weaponry. However, the fade doen't get another ability to expand his skills to be capable of fighting level 2 marines and HMGs. He's stuck using early-game tactics against mid-game marines. Simply put: The fade needs some sort of UNIQUE hive 2 feature to both expand on what he can do, and offer new tactics. Instead, metabolize is the ANTI-tactic. It encourages conservative fighting and hiding in a corner like a beat puppy. In fact, it's the only hive 2 ability the aliens have that doesn't bring out new tactics, doesn't 'counter' marine mid-game, but just staples the critter into more hive 1 tactics, is Metabolize.
Devour turns Onos into hit and run and an anti-HA (Read: MIDGAME) unit.
Leap allows the skulk to ambush VERY effectively, as well as cross great distances, so the big guns have a harder time tracking him.
Bilebomb allows gorges to fight at marine outposts or assault the main base. Slows/counters the marine resflow, crippling thier future playstyle.
Umbra counters bullets, meaning weapon upgrades and HMGs are not very effective at all.
All of these either expand on the alien's abilities, allow a counter to midgame, or both.
I've probably only killed 5 or 6 HA marines as a fade. I think every one was armed with a grenade launcher, or was out of ammo.
especially battlegorge!
I'm normally gorge/skulk only until we have at the very least 2 hives, so I normally am up against fully upgraded marines, or even heavy armor marines. You just have to keep a close eye on your health.
And about the Lerk replacement (back on topic, sort of), just a suggestion if you didn't know, if you have 3 hives, try primal screaming, then fast switch to spikes. Spikes now do 20 damage while primal scream is active, and it shoot much faster. It's like an HMG for the lerk <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
the thing when marines get shotguns out there isnt really much difference to skulk and fade. although one funny thing is with skulk if u have celerity u are really hard to hit, i have taken down 3 LA shotty marines with skulk in one go with celerity. a celerity skulk is like a fade using blink apart from it doesnt use energy and u are alot smaller target.
when u look at killing times skulk and fade are exactly the same, it takes 2 hits for a skulk and a fade to kill lvl0 armour lvl1-2 its 3 and lvl3 its 4 hits. that extra 5 dmg doesnt really mean anythin. looking at the marines hitting aliens. well if the marines use shottys its 1 shot and the skulk is down and normaly 2 for fade add on the fact that skulk is alot harder target to hit with celerity i take skulk. although in the face of lmgs fade is better but when shottys are been dished out id say skulk is better.
actualy i have neva really noticed this but if u take away the lmg factor fades have turned into a base attacking alien they are pretty weak against marines when shottys are been dished out. so, to me anyway fade has lost its warrior alien class type and become a weak siege tool instead.
I have heard that ppl are saying blink (well run as it is now) is been altered so u go invisable when u do it like it should be. although i have not seen this in changelogs. I think his attack should be altered, really his attack should be more powerful than onos. when u think about it what is going to kill more, 2 spikes that just rip through metal and tissue and tear u to shreds at fast speed or a big horn with lots of power behind it.
I'm normally gorge/skulk only until we have at the very least 2 hives, so I normally am up against fully upgraded marines, or even heavy armor marines. You just have to keep a close eye on your health.
And about the Lerk replacement (back on topic, sort of), just a suggestion if you didn't know, if you have 3 hives, try primal screaming, then fast switch to spikes. Spikes now do 20 damage while primal scream is active, and it shoot much faster. It's like an HMG for the lerk <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Monkeybonk, as a marine I've slaughtered countless of fades (mostly with my lmg) The reason was that fades just cant hit me when I'm jumping/dodging without celerity. Also, if you have 3 hives you'll be using acid rocket almost exclusively.
Regarding HAMBONE: he is not your concern. He has also received a warning, which is also not your concern. You reported his post; let it go at that.
I don't play on the HAM server too much because, to be honest, most of the players there are simply better then me. When I do play there as a marine, Fades are the worst thing there. I'm more afraid of them then Onos. When he says that one good Fade can stop marine expansion, he's not joking. I agree that Fades lack a defining role, but they're in no way, shape or form underpowered.
Note: Stomp is the 2 hive Onos attack, not devour.
Very good point Snidley, in 1.04 I couldn't use blink as a hit and run tactic because I have a wheel mouse and it takes ages for me to select blink, I only used it to catch up with skulks when they were rushing the rine base. Never the less, I still owned with it without blinking. Do you skilled players use a bind for blink or do you have very fast fingers? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Very good point Snidley, in 1.04 I couldn't use blink as a hit and run tactic because I have a wheel mouse and it takes ages for me to select blink, I only used it to catch up with skulks when they were rushing the rine base. Never the less, I still owned with it without blinking. Do you skilled players use a bind for blink or do you have very fast fingers? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hud_fastswitch 1 and have slot2 bound to a key nearby your movement keys. Works like a charm.
Edit: and fast fingers are good too <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
another funny thing is if u think of it as in res. marines can get 5 shottys for the price of 1 fade. ok 5 marines working together could kill 2 fades if they all shot once. looking at onos as well, if all the 5 shottys went off at same time onos dies. although i think onos hitboxes are abit messed, i have ran around in a room as onos and a hmg didnt hit me for ages.
I dont get it when ppl do great with skulk and stuff but they find fade crap, but some find good. it could be just the 50 res price or some ppl find they can do the same role a fade can with skulk. I have played tons of games where fade has neva been touched. the only time u see it been used abit is for assaulting bases with acid rocket at 3rd hive.
Woops. Either way, they compliment each other well <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Blink travels slower then 'leap'. I've tested about 15 times in a hallway and leap got me to the end about .3 seconds before blink. About the only saving grace blink has is that it has very high acceleration and there really is no 'minimum' stamina, so you can just hold it down and kinda run around in circles.
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Worth noting: Blink allows precision, leap does not. With leap you travel a set distance. With blink it's possible to do fancy manuvers, in fact with slower speed it's actually feasible to use the high speed to circle strafe marines(with practice of course). However, perhaps a celerity skulk is the same speed as a blinking fade. Maybe blinking fade is still moderately faster.
I think in my first post in here I said: The majority of the reason people say 'Fades pwn' is because the marines are just getting squashed anyway, and that in 2.1, the flaws would become more apparent.
Metabolize allows the fade to stay out in the field -indefinitely-. The fade never has to come back for healing unless he only has hive 1 abilities. It has been mentioned before but i'll say it again, with the fade you can have carapace and a regeneration-like ability. Regen and Carapace - two of the best defence upgrades.
As a skulk without regen, you have to go back to the hive for healing or go on some sort of kamikaze rush which, graciously gives the marines res.
So why is the fade worth this 50 res?
Well, you can do a bunch of damage with a fade and a skulk but in the end, its usually the skulk that ends up dead. Skulk dead = Marine res++
Now the skulk could rack up more res from his kills before he dies but still, the skulk's death is beneficial to the marines.
Now the fade, he can cause the same amount of damage or more but he can blink away and heal - rather than kamikaze. So now, not only does the fade get lots of res but the marines are being starved of their res for kills.
Next, taking out resource towers, and for the sake of this discussion lets assume you are going at this solo. As a free skulk, how are you going to take out that electrified rt? It takes forever with regen and without it you are going to need some backup.
The fade? His extra hitpoints means that you can take out an undefended electrified rt in two or three runs.
As soon as you get two hives the fade can do it in one run as he can metabolize. What does the free skulk get at hive 2? leap. That leap won't help you take out that rt.
I guess you could have the lone gorge bilebomb an rt but he is a sitting duck if any marines happen to try to rescue that node.
Now lets examine the fade in terms of stopping jetpacking marines.
At hive 1: The skulk has to wait for the jp'er to land or get lucky on the walls somehow to stop the jetpacker.
The fade can quickly blink up and get a swipe in and repeat.
At hive 2: The skulk gets leap and this makes it easier to take down jetpackers.
The fade's blink ability is still more controllable than leap and thus is still more effective at swiping those jetpackers out of the air.
At hive 3: Both the skulk and the fade have pretty effective attacks against the jetpacker, acid rocket and xenocide. If the marines have armor upgrades, a single xenocide will not kill a marine even at point blank range, plus this attack takes the life of the skulk. A fade can rocket the marine out of the sky, with adrenaline he can shoot 8 rockets in a row ( thats 50x8 = 400 damage in one volley).
No alienlife form is invincible, but i'm willing to bet that because of the versatility of the fade mentioned above plus the fact that skulks die faster than fades means that the you will cause at least 50 resource points of damage to the marines before dieing. (Remember, in 2.0 an electrified rt is itself 50 res)
I used to use regeneration fade but I have found that carapace fades last quite a bit longer. (I don't know that statistics but I can mess up an extra marine or two using it.)
A very fun thing to do as a fade which carries over to the lerk bite / fade analogy is to blink up to a nice high hiding spot. When a few marines come into the room, blink down into the middle of them swiping happily away.
*EDIT*
Could somebody post a demo of a REALLY good fade at work? I think that this would encourage more people to give the fade a chance..
- Blink travels slower then 'leap'. I've tested about 15 times in a hallway and leap got me to the end about .3 seconds before blink. About the only saving grace blink has is that it has very high acceleration and there really is no 'minimum' stamina, so you can just hold it down and kinda run around in circles.
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Worth noting: Blink allows precision, leap does not. With leap you travel a set distance. With blink it's possible to do fancy manuvers, in fact with slower speed it's actually feasible to use the high speed to circle strafe marines(with practice of course). However, perhaps a celerity skulk is the same speed as a blinking fade. Maybe blinking fade is still moderately faster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how you can say that: Blink and leap work almost exactly the same, with these differences:
- Leap gives you a much longer period of 'speed boost', and an upwards boost as well.
- Leap is a 'one shot' that is far less stamina draining per meter covered. However, you can't really 'jog' with it liek you can with blink.
- Easier to get into vents as a skulk then as a fade.
- Leap can be stopped in midair, and allows easy direction changes (Leap feels more... 'floaty')
- Leap can cause damage.
Metabolize allows the fade to stay out in the field -indefinitely-. The fade never has to come back for healing unless he only has hive 1 abilities. It has been mentioned before but i'll say it again, with the fade you can have carapace and a regeneration-like ability. Regen and Carapace - two of the best defence upgrades.
As a skulk without regen, you have to go back to the hive for healing or go on some sort of kamikaze rush which, graciously gives the marines res.
So why is the fade worth this 50 res?
Well, you can do a bunch of damage with a fade and a skulk but in the end, its usually the skulk that ends up dead. Skulk dead = Marine res++
Now the skulk could rack up more res from his kills before he dies but still, the skulk's death is beneficial to the marines.
Now the fade, he can cause the same amount of damage or more but he can blink away and heal - rather than kamikaze. So now, not only does the fade get lots of res but the marines are being starved of their res for kills. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Level 3 regeneration skulk:
10+10+10+2+3 (Marine res if you die) = 35 resources total
Level 3 carapace + regen fade:
50+35+10+10+10+2 = 107 resources total.
:/ I dunno, I think I'd rather have a new weapon then what's basically a VERY watered-down less-useful spinoff of a 2 res upgrade...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some stuff about RTs<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you here, but it's a moot point, simply because electricity is supposed to be a counter to light early-game units. Eventually SOMETHIGN will need to take it out (Usually it's an Onos). And a skulk + gorge backup can easilly waste a res, even w/o bilebomb.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some stuff about jetpacks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink up and swipe? Seriously, this is pretty weak. Not to mention: If the marines have Jetpacks and you're at hive 1 still, you pretty much have lost. Furthermore a gorge and lerk is better at taking out JPers then the fade is.
As for the hive 2, leap is MUCH more controllable then blink, because 1) It won't 'glue' you to the floor if you don't jump first, 2) You have an arcing trajectory, meaning that for a quick loss of stamina, you can cover MUCH more ground then the fade, as well as arc OVER things like turrets and marines and get behind. A fade has to fly in a straight line, which takes much more stamina, and he will usually either fall short, or get to his target without stamina.
Finally, for Hive 3, and I digress, sure acid-rocket is great for taking out JPers. But you mentioned adreneline. So now that we're playing 'what-if's, guess how long it takes for a level 3 JPer to waste your fade with a shotgun? 2 hits? You'd have to be shooting the JPer from across the viaduct hive. Furthermore, most of the acid rocket damage will be coming from splash, JPs go fast, I ain't gonna believe you if you say you hit him with every one) so it'll take longer to kill him.
that's right. He hov4rs w/o flapping
At first I thought I was able to edit the entire page <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
at 50 res i would do 3 things. 1 would be go gorge and build abit, 2 would be go lerk and kill lots and lots of LA marines, 3 would be save 50 res either go around with the help of lerks and light defended outposts and kill marines. if thats not an option id kill marines till got 100 res, i wouldnt care if i died lots thats what a skulk does. any guns or anything they bought with the res they got off me i would gobble up with onos.
well i consider those options better than going fade and then risking the chance of a few marines having shotguns and dieing. redem dont help, 1 shell and u redem but 2 hit at same time u dead.
i think we can safely say there is somin wrong with the fade. its not very n00b friendly almost every one on any side of any argument on the fade has said u gotta be good or need alot of skill and stuff. plus there is a thing about it not been worth 50 res although the ppl that think its fine obviously are good with the fade, or think of res abit different to others.
Fade simply owns in the early game. You can kill squads of 5 marines in one go if you blink properly (you barely ever take any damage while blinking, cept from maybe turrets). However, if the marines get armor/weapon upgrades it becomes increasingly difficult to be fade.
When you hit mid game (by mid game I mean like when marines get level 2-3 weapons and armor..... not sure what you would consider mid game) it becomes substantialy more difficult to kill them because of several reasons.
(note: these apply to skulks as well but we aren't talking about skulks)
(note2: these numbers are based on averages, assuming everyones skill stays about the same and barring any massive human error)
1.) armor upgrade 1: increases fade kill time per marine by 50 (from level 0) percent.... esentialy takes 150 percent of the time to kill a marine than it would to kill a unupgraded marine.
2.) weapon upgrade 1: Increases damage that marines can deal to fades while it is beating on one of their buddys... coupled with armor upgrade 1 this makes it even tougher on the fade seeing as how it takes longer per marine to kill but also you are recieving more damage while you are doing it.
3.) armor upgrade 2: increases fade kill time per marine by (about) 33 percent (from level 1). Esentialy takes 200 percent of the time to kill a marine than it would to kill a unupgraded marine.
4.) weapon upgrade 2: same as weapon upgrade 1 only fade takes even longer to kill each marine and takes even more damage while doing it.
5.) armor upgrade 3: increases fade kill time by 25 percent (from level 2).... takes 250 percent of the time to kill each marine as compaired to a unupgraded marine.
6.) weapon upgrade 3: same as the other weapon upgrades just the fade is takeing even more damage for a even more extended period of time.
Another example of how a fade is really hurt by armor/weapon upgrades.
Lets say that a fade can kill 4 out of 5 unupgraded marines before he has to run.
This means that at armor level 2 (takes twice as long per kill) the fade will be able to kill 2 out of the five marines before he has to run (if they are the same marines and its the same fade). This is considering that the marines still have level 0 weapons. If the marines actually have both level 2 armor and weapons the fade probably will only be able to kill 1 marine (4 swipes to kill, if he actually manages to land every single swipe). Basicaly you can see that if a fade is faceing the same 5 marines and they have level 3 weapons and armor he may not even be able to kill 1 of them before haveing to run (this is if he wants to live).
My suggestion to make the fade more effective in the mid game would be to simply increase its swipe damage to 100. It would still take 2 swipes to kill a unupgraded marines but it would also take 2 swipes to kill a armor 1 marine. 3 swipes for a armor 2 and (I think) 4 for a armor 3. I don't know exactly how much damage armor absorbs or any of that, I am just talking out of experience from hitting people with the fade. If someone could do the calculations for me and get the exact number of 100 damage swipes for a level 3 armor I would appreciate it.
Basicaly we can see that the fade would own in the early game... killing each marine in 2 swipes.... however, if marines even get armor upgrade 1 or 2 it severly decreases fade effectiveness. I think alot of the arguments between people come from not knowing what part of the game each other are talking about.