Euthanasia
Stakhanov
Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Legalizing death ?</div> Right , there is already a topic about butchering babies , next step is slaughtering seniors. Seriously... is it wrong to let a <i>previously</i> sentient being die ? Do people have a right to commit suicide ?
Is human life that sacred that we should try anything possible to keep its last relics alive ? Is death an illegal option for anyone ?
Is human life that sacred that we should try anything possible to keep its last relics alive ? Is death an illegal option for anyone ?
Comments
First things to get out in the open:
1) Don't Recucitate orders are llegal.
Basicaly there are some situations where the person is 'basicaly' dead however we can take steps to prolong their 'life' I believe if you sign a non recusitate order these steps will note be taken.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A DNR is a request not to have cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) if your heart stops or if you stop breathing. (Unless given other instructions, hospital staff will try to help all patients whose heart has stopped or who have stopped breathing.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
from <a href='http://familydoctor.org/handouts/003.html' target='_blank'>here</a>
so that is a 'legal form of suicide'. It IS possible to still be a cognitive individual after that, though it is also possible that severe brain damage can alter you.
2) If an individual is already in a Coma/is a vegtable (take that as you will) WHO has the right to decide when to pull the plug?
The doctor? The Spouse? The Children?
hard to say, aint it. (personaly I believe that only the individual has the right to terminate)
3) what about a living will that says if I am in a coma or anything like that I want the plug pulled. Ok now we have some one making their own choices... sorta.
So, the next thing up is that we can't let people who don't know better do horrible things to their self. What if I could write a legal form tat forces the doc to pull the plug even if he knows I will be able to pull through with little/no damage?
So there would have to be some one who can verify that the person was in full controll of their cognition and fully knew what was happening.
ok, so we have my ground beliefes on this:
Only the individual should be able to say, and only then if they are in full controll of their abilities.
now the Moral/Ethical:
Docs are sworn to protect life, now what do they do? Do they protect life (ie a hart rate) or do they protect a quality life (person is still functioning and can enjoy things), or what?
Personaly I think that Suicide SHOULD be made avaliable, but only to those people who are to die soon and basicaly are not screaming 24/7 b/c of a morphine drip. (personaly I never wana give up, I will die when it is my time, not before suicide is NOT an option for me).
However then we gota draw a THINK OBVIOUS LINE somewhere that says:
Person A is alowed to die, but B ain't. There is something that I can't say simply b/c I don't know enugh about medicine. I meen, does AIDs destroy your life? (not realy you can still function for some time, but when is that time?) what about Cancer? It recks alot of things and will often kill (my good friend's mother died of cancer recently, was a very sad day for me), but the person isn't necesarily in pain. etc etc etc. Just playing devils advocate on alot of points <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Playing an even nastier devil's advocate :
Why should suicide be intrinsically bad ?
With euthanasia, well I've seen relatives who were literally just vegetables. They were never going to move again or even realise that we were in the room. If someone decides that the pain is just too much, or the patient is clinically comatose and is never coming back: I think that euthanasia should be allowed. Doctors will do it; my fiancee's parents are both nurses and it does happen. Docs put a little extra morphine in a drip usually and the patient just slips away. I guess when you see people begging you to end the agony that their life has become you end up caving in. Heck, I know I would.
however I do think that things like doc assisted suicide needs to be VERY tightly regulated (just WAY tomany possible gray nast nasty areas)
personaly I think that suicide in younger people or those whose lives still can be 'good' is plain wrong. Simple enugh most people don't think about the reprocusions of suicide
1) YOUR DEAD!
yah your curent problem is gone but then again it probably would have gone away eventualy anyway
I have known people who commited suicide over boyfriends and such, realy realy sad, and just silly. And don't give me BS about 'love' and stuff like that. I am in love with a wonderful person right now. However if she were to tear my hart out I sitll would not comit sucide (think about it YES but do it? NO)
2) congratz, you don't feel anything, but what about those you left behind? nuf said
however I do think that things like doc assisted suicide needs to be VERY tightly regulated (just WAY tomany possible gray nast nasty areas)
personaly I think that suicide in younger people or those whose lives still can be 'good' is plain wrong. Simple enugh most people don't think about the reprocusions of suicide
1) YOUR DEAD!
yah your curent problem is gone but then again it probably would have gone away eventualy anyway
I have known people who commited suicide over boyfriends and such, realy realy sad, and just silly. And don't give me BS about 'love' and stuff like that. I am in love with a wonderful person right now. However if she were to tear my hart out I sitll would not comit sucide (think about it YES but do it? NO)
2) congratz, you don't feel anything, but what about those you left behind? nuf said <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adolescent/Teenage depression and suicide is out of control these days. Never have I seen so many kids depressed over such little matters.
I'm sorry about your mother but I concur. Good points!
I find politics to be bad in generall...
my take on the whole is if someone wishes to die, let them make they choice because it's their life not yours and they can do with it what they please, even it it means killing themselves
people should be able to decide if they want to live or die. if they are in the correct state of mind to make such a decision. It should be done by a doctor who can determine whether your state of mind is able to make these decisons. Plus there should be an age limit. cause children dont know what they want or need.
There is one counrty that works that way. people go there to kill themselves.
there are so many things that can make life not worth living.
people should be able to decide if they want to live or die. if they are in the correct state of mind to make such a decision. It should be done by a doctor who can determine whether your state of mind is able to make these decisons. Plus there should be an age limit. cause children dont know what they want or need.
There is one counrty that works that way. people go there to kill themselves.
there are so many things that can make life not worth living. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to go out and kill yourself...then you can't possibly be in the right state of mind.
Sure, there's many things that make life miserable and down right horrible. (I won't get into all the specifics) And as <i>hard</i> as it may sound to deal with these problems, there's nothing given to you by God that you can't handle.
Solution - Get up off the ground, re-examine your life and problems, and work on finding a solution that not only gets the problem solved or helps with coping for it, but also keeps you <u>alive</u>.
Short answer- What Epidemic said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there's nothing given to you by God that you can't handle<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cancer, Aids, Ebola, most things that will put you in an intractable pain ward <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
so, we can handel Ebola now? (ussing Ebloa as example b/c there is NO refutting that ebola sucks the big one)
now, seeing how as often the ONLY solution that keeps you alive is something along the lines of a Morphine drip (wich basicaly makes you stoned for the rest of your hopefuly short life). Now I don't exactly call that living, I call that keeping heart beating and the brain waves ticking, and not much else.
response? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
oh, and Epidemic. This is a Discusion forum, not a place for you to simply state your point as the only possible answer, use facts and opinions and explain your point.
b/c if you discuss things like that I get to say:
Your wrong and I win so *pbbbbbbtp
As far as if a sucidal person is in the right state of mind, I think if a jury can decide if someone is mentally capable to stand trial they can decide if someone is mentally capable to choice to live or die.
If we *must* get deeper into the discussion, I'll expand on my previous post of "God can't give you any more than you can handle."
I'm extremely opposed to suicide, or "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself." This suicide I'm going to refer to includes examples of "So and so broke up with me and so and so was my soul mate and I can't live any more so I'll kill myself...". Also, Kurt Cobain, taking a shotgun to himself because of whatever reason he couldn't take the pressure of being portrayed as something he wasn't, would fit into this category. In perspective of the listed diseases you have, I think we can all agree that a situation like that is not on a grand scale of a mortally dehabilitating disease. With the help of God, there's absolutely nothing that one can't deal with. This also can include things such as depression, some kind of recurring non life threatening disease, loss of a loved one, etc...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cancer, Aids, Ebola, most things that will put you in an intractable pain ward
so, we can handel Ebola now? (ussing Ebloa as example b/c there is NO refutting that ebola sucks the big one)
now, seeing how as often the ONLY solution that keeps you alive is something along the lines of a Morphine drip (wich basicaly makes you stoned for the rest of your hopefuly short life). Now I don't exactly call that living, I call that keeping heart beating and the brain waves ticking, and not much else.
response? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Now</b>, here comes the shadier topic. I think my belief is summed up best with this, a part of the beliefs of the LCMS - <i>"When the body's ability to sustain itself is no longer possible, and when doctors conclude that there is no hope for recovery, Christians may in good conscience forego the use of life support systems."</i> You're not flat out choosing to end your life, because honestly, death is on the doorstep (and I agree what you said "Ebola DOES suck the proverbial "big one") Modern technology is just able to let the body ignore the knocking at the door temporarily.
Edit - Started typing one thing, and went off topic into another...side affect of discussion posting...
you had simply made your seld unclear and thus my fun little attacks
sidenote: most of my stuff is done in fun and game, I like disusions, thus the <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (also was just there to drive my point home <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
infact if you look back at my fisrt post int the thread you will see that we don't stand to far away <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
...Which is why I found it strange why exactly you were trying to refute a point with me that you cleared up yourself in an earlier post...
If we *must* get deeper into the discussion, I'll expand on my previous post of "God can't give you any more than you can handle."
I'm extremely opposed to suicide, or "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself." This suicide I'm going to refer to includes examples of "So and so broke up with me and so and so was my soul mate and I can't live any more so I'll kill myself...". Also, Kurt Cobain, taking a shotgun to himself because of whatever reason he couldn't take the pressure of being portrayed as something he wasn't, would fit into this category. In perspective of the listed diseases you have, I think we can all agree that a situation like that is not on a grand scale of a mortally dehabilitating disease. With the help of God, there's absolutely nothing that one can't deal with. This also can include things such as depression, some kind of recurring non life threatening disease, loss of a loved one, etc...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cancer, Aids, Ebola, most things that will put you in an intractable pain ward
so, we can handel Ebola now? (ussing Ebloa as example b/c there is NO refutting that ebola sucks the big one)
now, seeing how as often the ONLY solution that keeps you alive is something along the lines of a Morphine drip (wich basicaly makes you stoned for the rest of your hopefuly short life). Now I don't exactly call that living, I call that keeping heart beating and the brain waves ticking, and not much else.
response? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Now</b>, here comes the shadier topic. I think my belief is summed up best with this, a part of the beliefs of the LCMS - <i>"When the body's ability to sustain itself is no longer possible, and when doctors conclude that there is no hope for recovery, Christians may in good conscience forego the use of life support systems."</i> You're not flat out choosing to end your life, because honestly, death is on the doorstep (and I agree what you said "Ebola DOES suck the proverbial "big one") Modern technology is just able to let the body ignore the knocking at the door temporarily.
Edit - Started typing one thing, and went off topic into another...side affect of discussion posting... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are saying that if you are married for 30 years, and have kids, and are incredibly close with all of them, and they were to die in a car accident, you shouldn't have the right to say you don't want to live without them?
That's a little hard for me to accept, there were (not sure if there still are) places where a spouse chose to be cremated along with the deceased. I don't find anything wrong with that.
Moving on to depression, I think once someone is above the age of 18 and they are diagnosed with life-long depression, it is up to them if they want to A) choose to live with it B) choose to pop head-screwers (anti-depressants) for the rest of their lives or C) Euthanasia.
Heres my answer to the relegious aspect of it, if you are truly sorry for an act, even one you are bout to commit, doesn't that mean you have repented it? The only qualificatons to get into heaven if I remember correctly is to be baptized and repent for your sins.
God I hate liberals :-)
Anyway, with that said 2 things:
- Life is sacred, given from God. It is His, not yours, so you don't decide how long it is. This argument doesn't fly in debate, since its religiously justified. Its a personal belief I think more people should follow :-)
- Advocating death based on quality of life allows for parents to execute unwanted children after birth. As legal gaurdians of the children, they'd have the same rights as the elderly to end 'their' life in the name of quality.
Food for thought.
*I hope I don't sound like a fundamentailst christian. I'm not all that religious. Ask the ladies. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
God I hate liberals :-)
Anyway, with that said 2 things:
- Life is sacred, given from God. It is His, not yours, so you don't decide how long it is. This argument doesn't fly in debate, since its religiously justified. Its a personal belief I think more people should follow :-)
- Advocating death based on quality of life allows for parents to execute unwanted children after birth. As legal gaurdians of the children, they'd have the same rights as the elderly to end 'their' life in the name of quality.
Food for thought.
*I hope I don't sound like a fundamentailst christian. I'm not all that religious. Ask the ladies. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, DO NOT MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS IN THIS FORUM. Its for discussion.
Secondly, religion has no place in government. Thats the opinion of the believers alone, there are many others who don't share your views and would reject to be governed by a group of teachings they don't agree with or believe in.
Personally, I was quite supportive of a lot of these doctors that are getting their licenses removed. I'm talking about the ones that kill people. Why do I support them? They kill them because their payed to, because no one else will end their life with the pain they have. The doctors get paid, and do it. I fully support it, personally.
So really...I'm not sure I'm against this.
And don't school me about the discussion forums y0!
First, <b>I stated clearly at the begining that religion cannot be used as justifaction</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Life is sacred, given from God. It is His, not yours, so you don't decide how long it is. This argument doesn't fly in debate, since its religiously justified. Its a personal belief I think more people should follow :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and that the only other form of moral justification (a non affiliated beleif in objective moral principles) is called religion by liberals who want freedom from religion, not freedom of religion. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because America has decided that recognizing moral absolutes means advocating religion, any argument involving the sanctity of human life or involving an incontrovertable right and wrong is considered fascist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does that clear it up? I'm not saying "Its bad because God says so" I'm saying its bad because there are certain non-negotiable moral standards. do not steal, kill, or rape. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace.
I feel the government should recognize the exsistence of objective morals (it did. Thats why we swear to GOD and have in GOD we trust. It may be the name of the christian god, but it represents an objective morality.
To sum it up, Euthanasia is wrong because it violates objective morality which the government should not allow it.
Anyone catch the boondock saints reference? <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there's nothing given to you by God that you can't handle<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cancer, Aids, Ebola, most things that will put you in an intractable pain ward <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
so, we can handel Ebola now? (ussing Ebloa as example b/c there is NO refutting that ebola sucks the big one)
now, seeing how as often the ONLY solution that keeps you alive is something along the lines of a Morphine drip (wich basicaly makes you stoned for the rest of your hopefuly short life). Now I don't exactly call that living, I call that keeping heart beating and the brain waves ticking, and not much else.
response? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
oh, and Epidemic. This is a Discusion forum, not a place for you to simply state your point as the only possible answer, use facts and opinions and explain your point.
b/c if you discuss things like that I get to say:
Your wrong and I win so *pbbbbbbtp <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know perfectly well this is a discussion forum and I only stated my opinion - of course. So I cant see the point with your post really..
First of, it's your choice whether you want to be in that morphine drop or not, it's not what I call suicide if you decide not to.
Second, <b>you're wrong and I win <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--></b>
Would I commit suicide if I lived in a pain-hell? Probably, it would despair me and remove my hope and force me into a depresion, but if the pain stopped 6 months after, I'd be glad I did not
Anyway denying artificially prolonging of a life isnt the same as suicide in my opinion.
And Torak, if your loved one(s) is suffering, you would think with your heart, not your brain
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you elaborate? I'm not getting your point.
people should be able to decide if they want to live or die. if they are in the correct state of mind to make such a decision. It should be done by a doctor who can determine whether your state of mind is able to make these decisons. Plus there should be an age limit. cause children dont know what they want or need.
There is one counrty that works that way. people go there to kill themselves.
there are so many things that can make life not worth living. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell me about it...
I also agree