Shotguns...

itsmemoitsmemo Join Date: 2003-07-17 Member: 18232Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">too overpowered.</div> these things annoy me, frusterate me, hell they **** me off.

in mid game, skulks cant do jack **** against them especially against jp/shotty. I know its changing to 8/40 clip but that wont change much.

-there strogner than hmgs
-ha trains of them destroy everything
-demolish onos in seconds
-they are 10 res....
-even more deadly with motion tracking
-its extremly hard to miss and dodge
-shotgun rush is nearly impossible to stop unexpectedly
-lvl 3 shotgun kills fade in 1 direct hit

now i know all of you are going to reply "live with it" or "there are counters go find out" but that doesnt help..
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Comments

  • CHAMoisCHAMois Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13339Members
    They aren't stronger than HMGs vs aliens, but against buildings, yes.

    I sort of agree. Shotguns are more viable and cost effective than either HMGs or the GL currently, and are crucial to a marine teams victory.

    However they are still an investment and like all weapons very easy to lose.

    It bothers me how fast a gang of shotgunners can demolish a hive in seconds pre-umbra, but if taken down you easily end up costing a marine team 100+ res if you factor in health spamming and the cost of shotguns
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    Just because something kills you it dosen't mean its imbalanced... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • itsmemoitsmemo Join Date: 2003-07-17 Member: 18232Members, Constellation
    its not that it kills us, its that it kills us with little or no effort from that marine with the shotgun (especially lvl 3)
  • DizzyOneDizzyOne BASS&#33; Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9095Members
    its called challenge


    *bloop* <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> *bloop* <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> *bloop*
    <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> *bloop* <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> *bloop* <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <- "where the hell is my team?"
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
  • Pr0phecyPr0phecy Join Date: 2002-04-04 Member: 381Members
    see...IMO the thing with shotguns is simple teching...You go from

    LMG > Shotguns > Hmg > GL

    It gets better and better,and i would prefer an hmg over a shotgun,seing as how i dont have to reload,got an insane ROF and fairly good accuracy and power...So yea.Shotguns may be there in middle game but then they will tech into HMG and then you have an even bigger problem...Its just like warcraft.You can either be a newbie and dont go anywhere,You can fast tech (Getting shotguns,hmg's really fast) Or you can slow tech (Getting fair ammount of resources,making defense,and slowy but steadily growing to the top)
    Dizzy souls is right,Its all about tactics,Hell i took out 2 HA's with HMG's with a skulk...Its called : Wall walking,Cloaking and silence...Its beautifull
  • MausMaus Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5599Members
    You can't take them on with melee weapons ... so use lerks. Soften them up with spores to give the skulks a fighting chance, or just spike them from afar. They can't do a thing to you at range unless you stand still enough for a pistol to get you.
  • Kid-AKid-A Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10908Members
    As has been said before: "Aliens can complain about nothing..."

    I actually don't quite agree as discussion can be useful. But I agree with is in this case.

    SG's are currently marines only salvation.
  • itsmemoitsmemo Join Date: 2003-07-17 Member: 18232Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Kid-A+Aug 26 2003, 04:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kid-A @ Aug 26 2003, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As has been said before: "Aliens can complain about nothing..."

    <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have noting to say to that...
  • ExerExer Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13167Members
    Have you tried killing something at long range with a shotgun? HAH, good luck

    They are only good for short range stuff and pretty balanced IMO
  • Minstrel_KnightMinstrel_Knight The truth and nothing but the truth... Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9562Banned
    edited August 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Exer+Aug 26 2003, 06:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exer @ Aug 26 2003, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Have you tried killing something at long range with a shotgun?  HAH, good luck

    They are only good for short range stuff and pretty balanced IMO <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not like hmg or lmg are any better. The only long range weapon is the pistol.
  • PolyMorphPolyMorph Join Date: 2003-04-14 Member: 15475Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--zerg_queen+Aug 26 2003, 10:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zerg_queen @ Aug 26 2003, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Kid-A+Aug 26 2003, 04:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kid-A @ Aug 26 2003, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As has been said before: "Aliens can complain about nothing..."

    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have noting to say to that... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And yet you did. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotguns..., too overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Now if they were the properly overpowere rather then too overpowered, it would be great. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BeastBeast Armonkyi Join Date: 2003-04-21 Member: 15731Members, Constellation
    edited August 2003
    Relax. They are getting the ammo clipsize and reserve nerfed to 8/40 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (ala 2.01d <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
    I know all too well about it :o
    (plus 8 is a better number in terms of shotguns <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
  • hameshames Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8293Members
    edited August 2003
    Most of the problems is that 90% of alien attacks is melee, so you must close in and get a succession of hits in. The shotgun is basically an insta-kill weapon, so as the alien runs at you (If you did not attack from behind), you can easily kill the alien. If the marine had an LMG, you have a good chance depending on your skill level as an alien to at least damage the marine before going down.
    This problem is especially evident with the fade, mainly because you are a much bigger target then a skulk so you're easier to hit. Also you're slower then a skulk. You may say that your hit point and armor bonus negate this, but the shotgun can do an insane amount of damage and your chances of living is only increased slightly.
    As a marine, I would rather have a shotgun then a LMG.
    I will show you how powerful this weapon is - one time I was on the marines we where assualting a hive on eclipse, computer core I think it's called, and I stood on a TF and I shotgunned, at least 20 spawning skulks. 15 of them I got insta-kills the other took a few more shots because I missed. They where dead before they could even move. If I had a LMG, or even a HMG they would of been able to move at least for more then 1 second. My team was able to easily take down the hive because the power of the shotgun was able to easily halt any alien counter attack.
    That is my take on the shotgun.
  • naMsdrawkcaBnaMsdrawkcaB Join Date: 2003-08-15 Member: 19762Members
    My theory is: You shouldnt be able to click one key, not aim perfectly at what you want to shoot at, and still kill whatever you are trying to, all with one shot, one click of the mouse or keyboard

    Just using the shotgun in games makes me feel dirty, if a skulk leaps at me its so easy to take him down with one hit, if i see him on the ground no matter how artful he is at doging, it still takes 1-2 shots to kill it, lerks i can kill in one clip and onoses are so easy, even easier when they are charging since they are going straight for you
  • UntitledUntitled Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13348Members
    Well if marines invest money into anything, they best get resultsfast and effecient, just like when aliens invest in anything (i.e. evolutions, ugrades,stucters,etc.).

    You expect a vanilla skulk to have an advantage over a marine who just had ten res spent on them? Even fully upgraded skulks (6 res) should be owned by shotty equipped marines.

    What about shottys vs. other aliens?

    Bah, you people are just complaining simply because shottys make it harder to go solo (rambo) on aliens. They are supposed to work together!! Lerks make any (gun besides the gl) NEARLY USELESSS with UMBRA! Three aliens working in unision with each other (considering that this threesome has somewhat of a variety between them) would hack and slash though shotty marines no prob.

    And why doesn't anybody feel bad when using alien weapons? Oh how easy it is to slash a marine as a fade, or the amount of destruction you can cause with a single properly upgraded onos?

    Techique & Strategies > Sheer power
  • TeiohTeioh Canadia Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9453Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Untitled+Aug 26 2003, 10:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Untitled @ Aug 26 2003, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well if marines invest money into anything, they best get resultsfast and effecient, just like when aliens invest in anything (i.e. evolutions, ugrades,stucters,etc.).

    You expect a vanilla skulk to have an advantage over a marine who just had ten res spent on them? Even fully upgraded skulks (6 res) should be owned by shotty equipped marines.

    What about shottys vs. other aliens?

    Bah, you people are just complaining simply because shottys make it harder to go solo (rambo) on aliens. They are supposed to work together!! Lerks make any (gun besides the gl) NEARLY USELESSS with UMBRA! Three aliens working in unision with each other (considering that this threesome has somewhat of a variety between them) would hack and slash though shotty marines no prob.

    And why doesn't anybody feel bad when using alien weapons? Oh how easy it is to slash a marine as a fade, or the amount of destruction you can cause with a single properly upgraded onos?

    Techique & Strategies > Sheer power <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You're right a skulk shouldn't stand that much of a chance against a shotty. But what about a 54 res fade dieng in 1 shot to the shotty?
  • Cry_HavocCry_Havoc Join Date: 2003-01-22 Member: 12593Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Untitled+Aug 26 2003, 10:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Untitled @ Aug 26 2003, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You expect a vanilla skulk to have an advantage over a marine who just had ten res spent on them? Even fully upgraded skulks (6 res) should be owned by shotty equipped marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If the amount of res spent is your basis for what should kill what then why should 10 res be able to kill dozens of upgraded skulks?

    <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • WinterWinter Join Date: 2003-08-21 Member: 20042Members
    Errm, in response to a previous post, I have never, I reiterate, NEVER seen a shotgun take out a FADE in ONE hit. No matter how "short range" you are. Shotty's do not do over 250 dmg, sorry. In fact, who knows the numbers? How much does it do against different races?
  • UntitledUntitled Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13348Members
    edited August 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Cry Havoc+Aug 26 2003, 11:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cry Havoc @ Aug 26 2003, 11:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Untitled+Aug 26 2003, 10:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Untitled @ Aug 26 2003, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You expect a vanilla skulk to have an advantage over a marine who just had ten res spent on them? Even fully upgraded skulks (6 res) should be owned by shotty equipped marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If the amount of res spent is your basis for what should kill what then why should 10 res be able to kill dozens of upgraded skulks?

    <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And vice versa.

    A fully upgraded skulk would own dozens of vanilla marines, no sweat. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    And you have not put into the factor that skulks are the earliest and lowest forms of evolution on the alien side. Would it not make sense that a shotty marine would have no prob slaying wave after wave of skulks?


    Oh and from my experience as a marine, I killed a fade with a total of four point blank shots from a lvl.3 shotty, maybe less. Having a fade blink in your face amid armory humping, you wouldn't stop to count the shots.
  • ScoutScout Join Date: 2003-08-19 Member: 19989Members
    ummm, i dont know what game you're playing, but in natural selection fades dont die in one shotty hit.

    i own LA/SG shotgun marines and even pairs/trios all the time as a fade or lerk (gotta keep moving with blink as fade, gotta keep distance and spore/spike at the same time as a lerk, know when to retreat as either, you can always come back), and even as a gorge if you keep to at least medium distance and can aim with spit worth a damn, you can easily kill a single LA/SG marine, or even two if they're stupid and dont charge you. i think basic marines take 4 spits to kill, if you get good at aiming (most marines dont even make the effort to dodge gorgespit) you can take them down in no time flat, something most marines dont expect at all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> against marines with level 3 weapons/armor you'll have a tougher time though.


    also, no matter what gun the marine has, even if he has a oneshot onekill ubergatling deathray-o-matic, you can still kill him before he ever sees you. perfect your ambush tactics. hit from the side, from behind, or from above, do it silently (get silence or use walk until you attack), chompeh...chompeh...chompeh, enjoy the rfk. dont let them see or hear you until you've got the first bite in, and learn to make your bites count. if they have MT, you'll just have to pick a spot that marines are likely to pass, stop, stand still, wait, and ambush. alternatively you can go in the range of a sensory chamber if you have one.
  • RatRat Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11486Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--coil+Aug 26 2003, 04:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Aug 26 2003, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flay knows. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    this thread should have died as soon as coil said this, but people still think their $.02 matters when this has been reiterated.
  • UntitledUntitled Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13348Members
    I'm just trying to get these people to stop wining about anything being overpowered.

    Anybody knows brains owns brawn. but as you can see, a few don't have the brains. (NO FLAME INTENDED)
  • Alpha_1Alpha_1 Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 11041Members, Constellation
    Supposing a SG can take a 54 res fade in one shot, lets look at what it took to get that SG that powerful.

    Arms Lab ~ 25-40 (depends on version)

    Weapon 1 ~ 20-30
    Weapon 2 ~ 30-40
    Weapon 3 ~ 40-60

    One SG 10 res

    Now adding all those res up we get a MINIMUM of 25+20+30+40+10= 125.

    Please tell me why a SG should not take a 54 res fade down in one shot (assuming it is possible)? I will grant you the weapons upgrades ARE spread out over all weapons, but even distributing the res as it is on the alien team that is still a substantial sum.

    As for finding out the damage, there is a mod out there that shows the damage you do to each structure and player, get your local server to laod it and you can easily find out the damage.
  • UntitledUntitled Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13348Members
    edited August 2003
    So whats the problem with a 125 res investment killing a 50 res fade in a single shot?

    Onos (100 res) can kill a marine (o res) in two shots no prob, and can go on a killing spree in your own base.
  • MrKNifeyMrKNifey Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17668Members
    I'm really confused........it makes sense for a 10 res piece of a equipment to be able to decimate something that costs 0 res. Like Untitled said, you take a 100 res onos. It can go and rape half of your entire team in 5 seconds and destroy hundreds of res worth of equipment with ease. The downside? Onos are SLOOOW, unless you have celerity or are using charge. They are also the second largest target in the game, just under a hive. They also cannot fit in certain places.

    Shotgun will own skulks as long as the user can aim. Their disadvantage is that it has an effective range of half a foot, so a lerk would be the logical counter.

    I really don't see the point in these 'Marine weapon/tool X is overpowered' Everything on the marines has a disadvantage with being able to use it, i.e. took lots of res in order to have access, has crap range/accuracy, long reload, etc.
  • The_FinchThe_Finch Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8498Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Mr.KNifey+Aug 26 2003, 11:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.KNifey @ Aug 26 2003, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotgun will own skulks as long as the user can aim. Their disadvantage is that it has an effective range of half a foot, so a lerk would be the logical counter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The range on shotguns isn't that bad. You can't snipe a Lerk from across Eclipse Command, but most aliens are melee based, so they come to you.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...MINIMUM... 125<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you're going to do that, at least count the cost of the upgrades on the Fade (I know you can go Fade at one hive, but the example Fade is 54 res, or 2 evolutions).

    3 Movement chambers: 30 res
    3 Defense chambers: 30 res
    1 Hive: 35 res
    1 Standard Fade chassis: 50 res
    1 Movement evolution: 2 res
    1 Defense evolution: 2 res

    30+30+35+50+2+2=<b>149</b>

    Hey, how about that? I didn't even count the Gorge needed to build all that stuff, although it's unlikely a single Gorge would do all of that.
  • CEldinCEldin Join Date: 2002-09-16 Member: 1323Members
    You guys should stop comparing Marine and Alien res points. Its like comparing apples and oranges; just doesnt work. As a matter of fact, heres a suggestion, lets start calling Marine res Nanite Reserve and Alien res Bacterial Buildup. That way there can be no question about the differences between the two <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> .
  • a_civiliana_civilian Likes seeing numbers Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
    <!--QuoteBegin--Stung256+Aug 27 2003, 01:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stung256 @ Aug 27 2003, 01:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a matter of fact, heres a suggestion, lets start calling Marine res Nanite Reserve and Alien res Bacterial Buildup. That way there can be no question about the differences between the two <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I doubt that would stop people from comparing them.
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