Hera
Skyrage
Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20249Members
Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20249Members
<div class="IPBDescription">...and spawn points and lerks...oh my...</div> ...is not much better than the 1.04 Hera map at the moment...
Why?
Answer is lerks (mainly) and their ability to fly "outside" the area around the marine spawn...
Now, I suppose marines could counter that with a few jetpacks but the problem is that the common Hera strategy I see from the alien side nowadays is as following: 3-4 goes lerks immediately and go to the marine spawn and constantly spam the spawn area with spores while the marines are totally unable to do anything.
Now, the problems I see here (if ignoring the fact that aliens are overpowered atm of course <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
1. Map design is way to the disadvantage of the marines at the moment.
or
2. Lerks appear too fast ingame (nothing wrong with the cost but all aliens do on the other hand start with 25 res)
or
3. Spores is a too good of a hive 1 weapon
Mind, I love the lerks, as I play them a lot but I do feel that they are a bit too powerful early on, specially if the alien team gets 3-4 going at once whether it's a small or a large server. And in Hera they are pretty much an overkill creature. It's not great fun to play as a marine and being spammed with spores after a couple of minutes and not being able to do anything about it on this particular map.
I know that the new patch will nerf the aliens of course but I wonder if this bit will be looked into as well?
Why?
Answer is lerks (mainly) and their ability to fly "outside" the area around the marine spawn...
Now, I suppose marines could counter that with a few jetpacks but the problem is that the common Hera strategy I see from the alien side nowadays is as following: 3-4 goes lerks immediately and go to the marine spawn and constantly spam the spawn area with spores while the marines are totally unable to do anything.
Now, the problems I see here (if ignoring the fact that aliens are overpowered atm of course <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
1. Map design is way to the disadvantage of the marines at the moment.
or
2. Lerks appear too fast ingame (nothing wrong with the cost but all aliens do on the other hand start with 25 res)
or
3. Spores is a too good of a hive 1 weapon
Mind, I love the lerks, as I play them a lot but I do feel that they are a bit too powerful early on, specially if the alien team gets 3-4 going at once whether it's a small or a large server. And in Hera they are pretty much an overkill creature. It's not great fun to play as a marine and being spammed with spores after a couple of minutes and not being able to do anything about it on this particular map.
I know that the new patch will nerf the aliens of course but I wonder if this bit will be looked into as well?
Comments
The marines can't shoot through it, but a smart lerk can!,
usually some type of chamber will be built there, and the marines will have to siege it..
Another annoying place the lerks can hide is a little area in the middle-back of the boxes, theres a tiny corner they can fit in there
HMGs too.
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And by the time you do get grenade launchers or HMG's it's too late. The lerks will have then succeeded in severely (too much so) delayed the marines unless they now have relocated of course.
Either the marines relocate from the get-go or they build their base on the walkway. All the lerk can do is spend an hour trying to take out the RT.
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<b>Real situation:</b>
Three average-skilled Lerks on the glass tunnel can take out the Marine Start RT in about 3-5 minutes. Nobody would be able to approach the RT (since it's basically in the middle of NOWHERE, with absolutely NO cover), let alone try and pistol-snipe all three Lerks.
only teamwork with use of gl and hmg's can be a threat to him.
To be honest if THREE lerks are sitting there at game start, then they've hoarded all their res. Thats assuming you're not a totally inept marine team of course (RFK gets people to lerk v quickly). Since they're hoarders, that means chambers aren't up, RTs aren't up, and you SHOULD have an easy time moving to somewhere you CAN hold.
"The problem is not the lerk being there, the problem is that they can build 3 def chambers there and then lerk"
If you're not there, then there is NO problem. If they build 3 def chambers, great, thats 30 res at a spot you won't revisit. They lerk, you leave, they've wasted, what, 60-70 res on something you won't go back to?
But when you know them one gl solves them all and aliens are screwed.
another one is the elevator right of marine spawn. it does no damage and you can build on it.
Put elevator down, build 2 ocs half on the elevator. elevator gets blocked on moving up and ocs kill falling marines.
you CAN still pass this by the 2 ladders down the elevator but 2 ocs kill you.
placing one sc somewere and a dc below the elevator makes it even worse.
the left path of marine spawn gets blocked by an SC or DC outside.
so now you can block both exits of marine spawn just by some fast gorges.
But only newbie marines dont move out of the base early.
They have to change the map somehow...
Maybe they can make an invisible wall type of thing in the little area that the gorges build in? (behind the pipe)
its like the top of marine spawn in ns_origin.
you can shoot and see trough clip brushes (invisible) all they do is blocking movement.
If you can get into the little gap at the back of the crates outside you can stay there for ages, popping up to shoot spores and dropping back down to heal. They can't touch you there (unless they get organised or have jetpacks). If the crates were moved slightly it wouldn't be a problem (from the marines point of view).
Another slight problem is that I find that exiting the right hand side of the marine base is a deathtrap.
I think that it is a combination of the elevator / darkness, but squads that I send to weld open cargo bay usually get slaughtered. :-/
Hera isn't the only marines start I hate. The one on Bast is horrible! (I think that map is named bast - the hives are called Feedwater, Engine and Refinery.) At least the elevator exit is less of a death trap than the one on Hera, but the revolving door door is exit. One of my strategies for that map are to get phase gates ASAP so no marine will ever have to walk out of the base.
If the marines come out to shoot you, spore em and they will retreat. once they retreat, spike the rt to death, if they come to weld it, spike them to death.
i've made marines have to rebiuld that rt 5+ and even turret farm it one game..
but of course I spiked the turrets as well.
As for the maint elevator i love it, it is mass slaughter with the darkness etc. it should be made a lil easier for rines i reckon tho, esp about building on it to block it that really sucks.
- RD
Hera: Yes, you can build up on the walkway, but that still leaves your res tower out in the open to be attacked by lerks. Jetpacks are not a counter because the alien side can get lerks way before you can get jps. If there are 2 or 3 lerks outside there is very little a marine side can do to prevent the loss of their res point, which seems to be the only reason why they would stay at their start location.
Bast: Oh boy. When I first saw that weldable my heart lept for joy. Then I saw what it produced. In one of the most bizzare twists in an NS map there now exists a weld point which places the marines at a distinct disadvantage! Weld points are there to allow the marines to alter a map in ways which benefit their team. The marine team though is heavily disadvantaged by the bast weld, as now gorges and lerks can shoot through the gap with a handy sheild in front of them.
Those are the 2 worse offenders (And it may be no coincidence that I see very few marine hera/bast victories), but a marine team must surely ask itself, upon spawning, why should we stay here? A marine start has to have some sort of tangible benefit for a marine side: making a marine start a nightmare to hold just doesn't make sense!
Just add a door, that opens with a switch.
Close the door after you have the tower built, then they would have to open the door to get outside. Maybe place a box a bit infront of the switch to prevent parasite/gorge spit form opeing the door.
No need to change anything but a very small change to the map!
I somehow think <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=44859&st=0' target='_blank'>this</a> Is relavent to the discussion here XD
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2- don't let the marines go after the lerks coz that'll be men waisted.
3- find a marine with good aim to catch lerk off guard.
zippy
"Is not much better"
Of course not, the first Hera was absolutely amazing, and while this one is better, it takes a HELL of a map to out-do the orginal Hera, therefore this version is only slightly better.
Go cry elsewhere. I LOVE the outside part, just build your stuff a tid bit further from the exit so you can't get spored while spawning, humping etc.
As for perhaps spiking the rt to death, its a STRADGEY, there are plenty of places on indoor maps where marines can't reach without jps and lerks can sit and spike, this really isn't any different.
Just add a door, that opens with a switch.
Close the door after you have the tower built, then they would have to open the door to get outside. Maybe place a box a bit infront of the switch to prevent parasite/gorge spit form opeing the door.
No need to change anything but a very small change to the map! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES! Excellent idea, I like that.
That way, we can keep the awesome outside part, without having people cry too much <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just add a door, that opens with a switch.
Close the door after you have the tower built, then they would have to open the door to get outside. Maybe place a box a bit infront of the switch to prevent parasite/gorge spit form opeing the door.
No need to change anything but a very small change to the map! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've been reading my notebook, havn't you?
I apologise for these problems with the map, I personally put it down to the fact that I actually played very little NS over the last year, because I couldn't (university connection prevented it), and also because the map got extremely little playtesting done before the 2.0 release.
Unfortunately I always underestimate the ability for people to be extremely annoying and to exploit the smallest of problems.
But if the door was closable, would there be problems with commanders building all buildings which marines dont need to access out on the landing pad? Would that be a problem?
I'll probably be adding another resource node in the fog corridor too, to make it a bit more attractive for commanders to try and conquer (and because resource nodes are scarce around the marine start).
I resign to the fact that you guys know more about what I should do here than I do, so feel free to make suggestions, but bear in mind I'm not prepared to do any major overhauls when smaller solutions will work just as well.
Mind, that people have come up with several great answers of course on what the marines can do (except for xzilen, who apparently lives for insulting people, or am I wrong?) however do also think about that it's one thing to say which strategies work and actually making them work when playing.
But as I said, the most obvious thing to do would be to have the marine start a bit more friendly towards the marines and remove or alter some of the areas which gives lerks a too much of an advantage so early on. The glass dome idea above this post sounded quite attractive for instance <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->