Camp X-ray
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Justice or inhumanity?</div> Since the fall of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan hundreds of alledged Al Quaeda fighters and supporters of the Taliban have been held in Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, without trial or charges. The conditions they have been kept in there are grim to say the very least:
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1777033.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1777033.stm</a>
Chain-link cages 2.4 metres in length and hieght and 1.8m wide, open to all the elemants. A bucket for sanitation and a thin foam mattress. I do not lie when I tell you that our family dog is housed in a larger and better equipped facility when we take him to a pet boarding house during holidays. It's not a lavish place either.
Amongst the inmates there are 2 Australians. The father of one of these inmates, David Hicks, has been trying to get his son released or at the very least charged with a crime but to no avail. The US has done neither, and the Australian government has ignored his requests. It seems rights given to Australian citizens, such as the right to a fair trial, the right to legal representation, the right to humane treatment of prisoners, are simply ignored.
Now what happened on September 11 was a tragic loss of life caused by people with little respect for humanity or life. But if we are to keep these men, without trial or charge, in such conditions, how can we ourselves claim to have respect for humanity? How can we claim to be seeking justice, when the US will not even bring these men onto US soil because it would have to at the very least charge them and provide better internment facilties? If these men are guilty of terrorism or war crimes, charge them accordingly. It violates the very spirit of US justice to hold these men indefenitly without charge or legal representation. Has "innocent until proven guilty" been forgotten? No matter their crimes, they are still human beings, and as such they at least have the right to be held in better conditions.
Worse still, the US plans to trial these men by secret military tribunals. I would take this opportunity to examine the 6th Amendment to the US constitution:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The above document does not condone secret military tribunals. Already cries of "kangaroo courts" are being heard, and given that the means that the US intends to try these detainees violates the principles expressed in it's own Constitution, it's no wonder. Can the US truely claim to be handing out justice when it takes such actions?
Discuss. Do you believe that the conditions in Camp X-Ray are humane? Do you believe the inmates there will be given fair trials? Do you believe it is right and just to hold these men without charge for nearly 2 years?
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1777033.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1777033.stm</a>
Chain-link cages 2.4 metres in length and hieght and 1.8m wide, open to all the elemants. A bucket for sanitation and a thin foam mattress. I do not lie when I tell you that our family dog is housed in a larger and better equipped facility when we take him to a pet boarding house during holidays. It's not a lavish place either.
Amongst the inmates there are 2 Australians. The father of one of these inmates, David Hicks, has been trying to get his son released or at the very least charged with a crime but to no avail. The US has done neither, and the Australian government has ignored his requests. It seems rights given to Australian citizens, such as the right to a fair trial, the right to legal representation, the right to humane treatment of prisoners, are simply ignored.
Now what happened on September 11 was a tragic loss of life caused by people with little respect for humanity or life. But if we are to keep these men, without trial or charge, in such conditions, how can we ourselves claim to have respect for humanity? How can we claim to be seeking justice, when the US will not even bring these men onto US soil because it would have to at the very least charge them and provide better internment facilties? If these men are guilty of terrorism or war crimes, charge them accordingly. It violates the very spirit of US justice to hold these men indefenitly without charge or legal representation. Has "innocent until proven guilty" been forgotten? No matter their crimes, they are still human beings, and as such they at least have the right to be held in better conditions.
Worse still, the US plans to trial these men by secret military tribunals. I would take this opportunity to examine the 6th Amendment to the US constitution:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The above document does not condone secret military tribunals. Already cries of "kangaroo courts" are being heard, and given that the means that the US intends to try these detainees violates the principles expressed in it's own Constitution, it's no wonder. Can the US truely claim to be handing out justice when it takes such actions?
Discuss. Do you believe that the conditions in Camp X-Ray are humane? Do you believe the inmates there will be given fair trials? Do you believe it is right and just to hold these men without charge for nearly 2 years?
Comments
What more is there to say on the subject?
Frankly, I think we're too nice to inmates in even our federal prison system.
Your tax money is going to provide Joe Rapist with a lawyer, shelter, TV, recreation rooms, exercise, free meals, etc. etc. etc.
Homeless people have even less then that.
Why does Joe Rapist deserve ANY of that? Joe Rapist should get the BARE MINIMUM. A bed to sleep on, a bare light bulb, a toilet, skimpy meals, and shelter.
I want my money going towards having Joe Rapist living in squalor, not so Joe Rapist can enjoy a steak on Fridays, go back to his room, kick back and watch CNN.
Cruel and unusual, or just and deserving? Would a seriel killer NOT deserve to be tortured for his crimes?
These people have not been given due process.
Your tax money is going to provide Joe Rapist with a lawyer, shelter, TV, recreation rooms, exercise, free meals, etc. etc. etc.
Homeless people have even less then that.
Why does Joe Rapist deserve ANY of that? Joe Rapist should get the BARE MINIMUM. A bed to sleep on, a bare light bulb, a toilet, skimpy meals, and shelter.
I want my money going towards having Joe Rapist living in squalor, not so Joe Rapist can enjoy a steak on Fridays, go back to his room, kick back and watch CNN.
Cruel and unusual, or just and deserving? Would a seriel killer NOT deserve to be tortured for his crimes? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yeah, the prison system is a friggin country club, the food is wonderful, it's climate controlled, and get this: once you get in you don't have to see your family, friends, or loved ones for 40 years! And everyone wants a little time to themselves, right? And I can't think of anything more fun than getting gang destroyed in a shower. O man, I think I'll go kill someone so I can reap the benifits of being put in the 4 star hotel that is the local slammer.
And as for Guantanamo Bay, we critisize other countries for doing the same things (keeping untried criminals for undetermined periods of time in questionably humane conditions) all the time, of course it's hypocrisy. But it's nothing new to any government, it's despicable and must be stopped, but no one really cares because 1)people enjoy the suffering of people they perceive as "enemies" and 2)people forget these kind of things easily when the powers-that-be tell them to.
And why not? Because foreigners are inferior as people and undeserving? Simple geographic factors are no basis for stripping away the so called "inalienable"(sp bad) rights of a human being.
What more is there to say on the subject?
Frankly, I think we're too nice to inmates in even our federal prison system.
Your tax money is going to provide Joe Rapist with a lawyer, shelter, TV, recreation rooms, exercise, free meals, etc. etc. etc.
Homeless people have even less then that.
Why does Joe Rapist deserve ANY of that? Joe Rapist should get the BARE MINIMUM. A bed to sleep on, a bare light bulb, a toilet, skimpy meals, and shelter.
I want my money going towards having Joe Rapist living in squalor, not so Joe Rapist can enjoy a steak on Fridays, go back to his room, kick back and watch CNN.
Cruel and unusual, or just and deserving? Would a seriel killer NOT deserve to be tortured for his crimes? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Teflon is correct that they are there to be PUNISHED. While I bust my **** just to get through tech school, some child molester gets free college. I also agree their treated to nicely in our OWN system...although Camp X-RAY is bullsh*t. If I were the austrailian prime minister I'd say, Look Uncle Sam, charge him, or set him free, or you can expect some Aussie Ownage. Its bogus that we get to run around policing everyone but at the core more corrupt then the "terrorists". Bah!
1. They are prisoners of war. With a war still ongoing, we are not obligated to free them.
2. They cannot be released to their home countries because they will most likely be freed.
3. If we have people who want to kill Americans, we can't simply hold them up for a while and let them go.
I think that if we're holding a recognized person from a western nation, we should release them to their home nations for trial under treason. Aussies fought in Afghanistan, so this hicks fella should be on trial in his homeland.
EDIT
Also, whats the point of a trial? Evidence? Well, we found this guy in a cave with RPGs and pictures of Bin Laden... Chances are if they were in a situation to be caputred, they're guilty. Blanket statements don't work, but still. :-)
1. They are prisoners of war. With a war still ongoing, we are not obligated to free them.
2. They cannot be released to their home countries because they will most likely be freed.
3. If we have people who want to kill Americans, we can't simply hold them up for a while and let them go.
I think that if we're holding a recognized person from a western nation, we should release them to their home nations for trial under treason. Aussies fought in Afghanistan, so this hicks fella should be on trial in his homeland.
EDIT
Also, whats the point of a trial? Evidence? Well, we found this guy in a cave with RPGs and pictures of Bin Laden... Chances are if they were in a situation to be caputred, they're guilty. Blanket statements don't work, but still. :-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the beauty of being a "world power" We can say its for war reasons, and maybe thats why. Then again we assassinate people we don't like on a basis... Sadly I don't see anyone enforcing the geneva convetions against us. We are just as bad as bin laden if not worse. WE GIVE THESE PEOPLE A REASON TO HATE US. I agree maybe they DO need to be contained, although they are not animals. let them be punished but lets keep it humane.
Well, what if we say its for war reasons and it is for war reasons? Is it possible that the US is right? Assasination is a mixed bag. Don't sow what you aren't willing to reap is a good motto in that case. The geneva convention should be followed, I agree. We do need to make special allowances, considering the geneva convention was formed when wars were between countries, not between a country and a non-aligned (kinda) system of attacks. I agree we should up the care a bit- maybe offer a small privacy wall, and close of the sides of the cages for protection against the elements.
"We are just as bad as bin laden if not worse"
Lemme get this straight.
After having 3000 American Citizens murdered by Islamic Extremists, we're the bad guy because we don't make our prison's club med for people who would gladly kill any American they could find.
God, even I'M starting to be ashamed of being an American.
/Sarcasm
On the issue of "They are not animals"... consider that it is reason that seperates man from animal, and look at the value of reason in fundamental islam. They're still people, but it makes you think.
Dude, I just agreed with you and you're still disagreeing with me?
WTH? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And the war on Terror isn't about $$$, but thats a different topic.
I was just adding in some more stuff that I forgot to later and then edit wouldn't have helped much.
We have our good friend OJ for a nice example of THIS.
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Then so should the detainees at Camp X-Ray. The bare minimum you just descibed is leagues ahead of what they currently have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are a few reasons we need to contain them:
1. They are prisoners of war. With a war still ongoing, we are not obligated to free them.
2. They cannot be released to their home countries because they will most likely be freed.
3. If we have people who want to kill Americans, we can't simply hold them up for a while and let them go.
I think that if we're holding a recognized person from a western nation, we should release them to their home nations for trial under treason. Aussies fought in Afghanistan, so this hicks fella should be on trial in his homeland.
EDIT
Also, whats the point of a trial? Evidence? Well, we found this guy in a cave with RPGs and pictures of Bin Laden... Chances are if they were in a situation to be caputred, they're guilty. Blanket statements don't work, but still. :-) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. The US has specifically not classified the detainees as POWs, because that would mean they would recieve the rights given to POWs under the Geneva Convention.
2. If they have not committed a crime, then there's no problem with letting them go. They are yet to be charged with any crime.
3. If they have conspired to kill Americans, that is a crime that the US can charge them with. Hence, charge them, show a court the evidence and try them.
I agree that Hicks should be tried here in Australia. The US won't allow it because he would probably be released, seeing as it is not a crime under Australian law to fight as a mercenary (and so far, the only evidence indicates that Hicks fought for the Taliban, not Al Quaeda). If he had fought with Al Quaeda then he would be subject to criminal prosecution.
I would have thought that of all people an American would not be the one to say "Whats the point in a trial". If the police walk into a American house and find a dead body and a man standing there with a gun, there still has to be a trial to determine who was the guilty party, even though it may seem like an "open-and-shut-case". Now if a detainee was found in a cave with RPGs and pictures of Bin Laden then yeah, he probably was guilty of conspiring to kill Americans and planning terrorist acts. But that still must be determined. For a nation that enshrines inalienable rights for all mankind in it's Constitution it seems bizzare to then throw these values out the window. If the US is so confindent that these men are guilty of crimes, then why are they afraid to try them in proper courts?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lemme get this straight.
After having 3000 American Citizens murdered by Islamic Extremists, we're the bad guy because we don't make our prison's club med for people who would gladly kill any American they could find.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jammer I do not ask that the detainees recieve TVs, beach holidays, sofas and free use of the casino <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Look at the first quote in this reply: A bed to sleep on, a bare light bulb, a toilet, skimpy meals, and shelter. This is all I ask for these people, because they currently have no bed, no light bulbs, no toilets and no shelter. Can you honestly say that such conditions would be "lavish"? No matter their crimes, these people are still humans.
These people have not been given due process. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
samwise has a point
these people are being kept without trial and accusation from what I can gleen
however they are in a foreign country, but they could be on us soil if indeed they are on the naval base, so it dependeds
I for one suspect that about 99% of people in Gauntanamo bay deserve to be there. They werent in afghanistan or iraq handing out lollies to children. However the US is flagrantly abusing loopholes here. They are required to give PoW's certain minimum living standards by the Geneva convention. These people are prisioners - taken in a war. Sounds like a Prisoner of War to me.
The US has a massive budget for its mitilary, it can certainly afford decent accomodation and lighting for these people.
The idea that "their evil, therefore we can do what we like to them" rings very much to the same tune of "their evil, therefore we shoud fly our plane into a building full of them".
If the US wants the moral highground it claims, its going to have to let these people at least have decent accomodation, if not an open trial.
1. They are prisoners of war. With a war still ongoing, we are not obligated to free them.
2. They cannot be released to their home countries because they will most likely be freed.
3. If we have people who want to kill Americans, we can't simply hold them up for a while and let them go. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was under the impression that there never was a war. Also, in my mind, US went in, took people against every international law because war was never declared. And if it IS a real war, then those people are not illegal combatants but normal soldiers who should be treated like ones. In any case, shouldn't you people be protecting your beloved constitution? The more you let your government slip, more confident it becomes that the it(government) can ignore your own laws and do whatever it wants. It's a slippery slope and I just hope you don't get sexually harassed in uranus by your own government.
Nobody ever comments on what I say <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->