This theory doesn't explain the creation of existence, just the creation of our universe as we know it (just like the big bang theory). And not only that, this one seems to be supported less.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Sep 7 2003, 10:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Sep 7 2003, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Big Bang was existence. It was condensed matter, am I right? Matter is existence, it doesn't come out of nowhere just by accident. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've heard of a theory that states that matter is simply a condensed form of energy, so by that reasoning, energy is existence.
Energy, space and time were created in the big bang, matter simply formed because of the density of that energy per unit area.
It's impossible to state what came before the big bang, because as someone else pointed out, there was no time and no space before the big bang occurred.
It's simialar to gestation. You dont remember gestating in your mothers womb, you only remember things after your hypothalmus developes fully so it can process memory. The only way to prove gestation is observation, cause and effect and all that whatnot.
Therefore, the only way to prove how exactly matter and energy could come to exist from nothing would be to observe it happening...
Yes, I know of that, that is called the conservation of energy.
However, we are talking of a time in which the universe was being created. The laws of physics werent even layed out yet. Essentially the closest we have to the state the universe was in during the big bang is the centre of a singularity, which requires some higher plane of physics of which we are unaware.
Unfortunately, not all things can be explained immediately. We will need a few centuries more to solve the problems and mystery of the origins of the universe.
And now, back to beliefs <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's true, laws of physics didn't even exist then. But I still don't get how there is absolutely nothing in existence, and then something happens. That's why I believe in God, a being that doesn't need to be defined or explained to exist. One might ask, Who made God? Well, God is God and He doesn't need to be created because He is God. That might make very little sense to you, but it is sense enough for me.
Anyway, I can't worship the sun because it burns my retina. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you believe in god, you meet the same conundrum that comes to atheists trying to come to terms with what came before the big bang and such.
Something had to have created god, if not, then god would be a perfect being with no beggining and no end. This raises the greater conundrum of why would a perfect being create a universe at all.
It may make no sense, but when no law prohibits something from happening, then it can and will happen. Something can arise from nothing, because there was nothing to prohibit it from doing so. Some persons cant see this because they live in a world of laws and rules, but when the laws and rules dont exist, normal perceptions and normal modes of thinking cease to be useful.
If god does exist then he is in all likelihood the creative power that drives the universe. He is barely aware of us because we make up only a nothingth of a nothingth of existence. This in my opinion gives Man a greater reason to expand into the cosmos then mere survival. If anything, we should strive to incorporate ourselves in the Grand Design that is the Universe, and face the truth.
God will remain a mystery for as long as we are a nothingth of a nothingth...
Why wouldn't He create us? Wouldn't it make sense for a perfect being to create a world with its own rules, something he doesn't have to control. But no one really knows if, why, or how.
Why would he? He could simply think "Hehe, they'd do this and this and this and this" then move on to more intersting topics, like getting godlike entity 14156 to get him a danish.
There is a saying.
"The Self Satisfied go no further"
A derivative of this quote would go
"The perfect have no need to go further"
If you are perfect, what is the point in even existing anymore? You have attained the ultimate quality; Perfection. Once perfection is attained, there is nothing more.
Thus, a perfect being would not create a universe for any selfless reason.
If anything, this perfect being would want only one thing, and that would be death.
Perhaps thats why god created the universe. So he could finally find a way to end his eternal existence.
<!--QuoteBegin--B33F+Sep 6 2003, 06:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (B33F @ Sep 6 2003, 06:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Through logic, you can arrive at the conclusion that the existance of a god/deity is impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Go on then.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 8 2003, 09:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 8 2003, 09:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--B33F+Sep 6 2003, 06:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (B33F @ Sep 6 2003, 06:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Through logic, you can arrive at the conclusion that the existance of a god/deity is impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, Descartes among others logically concluded that the nonexistence of a god/deity is impossible.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Sep 8 2003, 07:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Sep 8 2003, 07:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One of the laws of physics states that matter and energy can't come from nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually that's only true in large systems. On a small scale that principle can be violated, and is all the time. For instance, a particle/ anti-particle pair can spontaneously form from a vacuum, violating energy/mass conservation, provided that the violation is corrected within a certain amount of time (the particles disappear). Another example is tunneling. When particles collide with a potential field (a wall for instance) there is a probability that they will pass right through to the area of lower potential on the other side despite not having the energy to make the jump. Over the course of the whole interaction no energy conservation was violated, but for a certain amount of time it must have been in order for the particle to make the jump.
Truth be told, physicists don't know much about the properties of the interactions that occured at the big bang. The subject is both too small and two massive for any available model to be valid. This is the subject of a great deal of current research into string theory and the like.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Sep 8 2003, 06:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Sep 8 2003, 06:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Sep 8 2003, 07:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Sep 8 2003, 07:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One of the laws of physics states that matter and energy can't come from nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually that's only true in large systems. On a small scale that principle can be violated, and is all the time. For instance, a particle/ anti-particle pair can spontaneously form from a vacuum, violating energy/mass conservation, provided that the violation is corrected within a certain amount of time (the particles disappear). Another example is tunneling. When particles collide with a potential field (a wall for instance) there is a probability that they will pass right through to the area of lower potential on the other side despite not having the energy to make the jump. Over the course of the whole interaction no energy conservation was violated, but for a certain amount of time it must have been in order for the particle to make the jump.
Truth be told, physicists don't know much about the properties of the interactions that occured at the big bang. The subject is both too small and two massive for any available model to be valid. This is the subject of a great deal of current research into string theory and the like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Black holes can actually lose mass, as near their event horizon the antiparticle from a particle-antiparticle pair can sometimes be sucked in before the pair can annihilate itself. For some reason(that I do not know) the antiparticle is supposed to have a greater probability of being sucked in.
<!--QuoteBegin--OttoDestruct+Sep 2 2003, 05:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Sep 2 2003, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Was raised catholic, and as I've said before, I don't take kindly to organized religion anymore. I'm spiritual, not religious. Religion spawns mindless sheep who can't think for themselves. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it happens. People are bombing each other because of religion. And I'm not talking just about the middle east, Ireland and other areas have seen their fair share. The KKK claims it is a "christian" organization. I could list a whole lote more but I won't. Basically what it comes down to is that religon in some form or fashion will promote an intolerance, and censorship of people that are different. Thats a bad thing last time I checked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I can agree with a good portion of what you believe. After being raised in an irish roman catholic house... I really grew to dispise religion as a whole. People use it to corrupt others and manipulate them into doing things to further their cause (generally a political push for more power) and are only worried about themselves. After years of having an organized church trying to force me into their mold and hold to their beliefs I decided that honestly it doesn't matter what I believe... I see something that I feel is wrong. I try my hardest to be a good person and help others, even perfect strangers. So I suppose my beliefs lay more in my personal morality. I live a good life, I love that life... If there is a god for other such being, they can understand why I refused to participate in any organized religion. Honestly, I see more corruption and evil in all the organizations than I do good and that is a major turn off. So there isn't really anywhere I can go to talk with people like me... similar beliefs and such. So if there is a god(s)... I would hope they could understand. If not... whats the point in trying to help others at all?
Sidenote: As a member of the us army... people often try and throw my beliefs in my face. Asking me how I could be a part of such an organization... its a job and its my beliefs. If I deserve punishment by the way you view I live and how I choose my beliefs then thats your choice... I wouldn't wish harm on you for what you believe. Yet, for those that like to argue... my beliefs are deffinatly sound for the testing.
I was raised Christian until I was 10 or so, then my family converted to Catholicism.
However, some thoughts on this (from my case, may differ from yours obviously <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) ; as a child, you just... accept things. I wasn't hardcore, I didn't read the Bible or pray diligently or this or that; I did it when I was told to, and accepting things at face value without really caring about it one way or the other.
Going Catholic was just like updating a few things here and there.
However, as I took more interest in religion and it's effects on my life, as well as the mechanisms of the religion itself, I just realized that it didn't make a whit of logical sense, and I became apostate. I continued to think about religion, however, especially with an especially devout mother that continued to press it on me; and I came to this conclusion:
No religion can prove anything, really. You can't prove to me that God is a benevolent being that created the universe no more than I can prove that the way to get into Heaven is to hop up and down on one leg for an hour a day while reciting the alphabet backwards. Likewise, I can't prove that God ISN'T what you say he is, nor can you prove that I am incorrect in my method of obtaining eternal happiness.
My final say? Believe whatever the hell you want to, as long as it doesn't limit, hurt, bother, etc. anyone else. You think that God says homosexuality is wrong? Fine, but don't try to keep anything from them (equality, marriage, whatever) and don't talk smack to them. You think that Glarblurgh the Great wants you to eat nothing but potatoes for the rest of your life? I suggest you take some dietary supplements. You'll burn in hell if you don't love God? Love him, but don't treat me any differently for not doing so. You think that the way to get into Heaven is to hop up and down on one leg for an hour a day while reciting the alphabet backwards?
Comments
I've heard of a theory that states that matter is simply a condensed form of energy, so by that reasoning, energy is existence.
Energy, space and time were created in the big bang, matter simply formed because of the density of that energy per unit area.
It's impossible to state what came before the big bang, because as someone else pointed out, there was no time and no space before the big bang occurred.
It's simialar to gestation. You dont remember gestating in your mothers womb, you only remember things after your hypothalmus developes fully so it can process memory. The only way to prove gestation is observation, cause and effect and all that whatnot.
Therefore, the only way to prove how exactly matter and energy could come to exist from nothing would be to observe it happening...
Ah well, I'm probably wrong anyway...
However, we are talking of a time in which the universe was being created. The laws of physics werent even layed out yet. Essentially the closest we have to the state the universe was in during the big bang is the centre of a singularity, which requires some higher plane of physics of which we are unaware.
Unfortunately, not all things can be explained immediately. We will need a few centuries more to solve the problems and mystery of the origins of the universe.
And now, back to beliefs <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, I can't worship the sun because it burns my retina. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Something had to have created god, if not, then god would be a perfect being with no beggining and no end. This raises the greater conundrum of why would a perfect being create a universe at all.
It may make no sense, but when no law prohibits something from happening, then it can and will happen. Something can arise from nothing, because there was nothing to prohibit it from doing so. Some persons cant see this because they live in a world of laws and rules, but when the laws and rules dont exist, normal perceptions and normal modes of thinking cease to be useful.
If god does exist then he is in all likelihood the creative power that drives the universe. He is barely aware of us because we make up only a nothingth of a nothingth of existence. This in my opinion gives Man a greater reason to expand into the cosmos then mere survival. If anything, we should strive to incorporate ourselves in the Grand Design that is the Universe, and face the truth.
God will remain a mystery for as long as we are a nothingth of a nothingth...
There is a saying.
"The Self Satisfied go no further"
A derivative of this quote would go
"The perfect have no need to go further"
If you are perfect, what is the point in even existing anymore? You have attained the ultimate quality; Perfection. Once perfection is attained, there is nothing more.
Thus, a perfect being would not create a universe for any selfless reason.
If anything, this perfect being would want only one thing, and that would be death.
Perhaps thats why god created the universe. So he could finally find a way to end his eternal existence.
But thats another topic...
Go on then.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Descartes among others logically concluded that the nonexistence of a god/deity is impossible.
Actually that's only true in large systems. On a small scale that principle can be violated, and is all the time. For instance, a particle/ anti-particle pair can spontaneously form from a vacuum, violating energy/mass conservation, provided that the violation is corrected within a certain amount of time (the particles disappear). Another example is tunneling. When particles collide with a potential field (a wall for instance) there is a probability that they will pass right through to the area of lower potential on the other side despite not having the energy to make the jump. Over the course of the whole interaction no energy conservation was violated, but for a certain amount of time it must have been in order for the particle to make the jump.
Truth be told, physicists don't know much about the properties of the interactions that occured at the big bang. The subject is both too small and two massive for any available model to be valid. This is the subject of a great deal of current research into string theory and the like.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Descartes among others logically concluded that the nonexistence of a god/deity is impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I made some errors. No big deal. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually that's only true in large systems. On a small scale that principle can be violated, and is all the time. For instance, a particle/ anti-particle pair can spontaneously form from a vacuum, violating energy/mass conservation, provided that the violation is corrected within a certain amount of time (the particles disappear). Another example is tunneling. When particles collide with a potential field (a wall for instance) there is a probability that they will pass right through to the area of lower potential on the other side despite not having the energy to make the jump. Over the course of the whole interaction no energy conservation was violated, but for a certain amount of time it must have been in order for the particle to make the jump.
Truth be told, physicists don't know much about the properties of the interactions that occured at the big bang. The subject is both too small and two massive for any available model to be valid. This is the subject of a great deal of current research into string theory and the like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black holes can actually lose mass, as near their event horizon the antiparticle from a particle-antiparticle pair can sometimes be sucked in before the pair can annihilate itself. For some reason(that I do not know) the antiparticle is supposed to have a greater probability of being sucked in.
I think I can agree with a good portion of what you believe. After being raised in an irish roman catholic house... I really grew to dispise religion as a whole. People use it to corrupt others and manipulate them into doing things to further their cause (generally a political push for more power) and are only worried about themselves. After years of having an organized church trying to force me into their mold and hold to their beliefs I decided that honestly it doesn't matter what I believe... I see something that I feel is wrong. I try my hardest to be a good person and help others, even perfect strangers. So I suppose my beliefs lay more in my personal morality. I live a good life, I love that life... If there is a god for other such being, they can understand why I refused to participate in any organized religion. Honestly, I see more corruption and evil in all the organizations than I do good and that is a major turn off. So there isn't really anywhere I can go to talk with people like me... similar beliefs and such. So if there is a god(s)... I would hope they could understand. If not... whats the point in trying to help others at all?
Sidenote: As a member of the us army... people often try and throw my beliefs in my face. Asking me how I could be a part of such an organization... its a job and its my beliefs. If I deserve punishment by the way you view I live and how I choose my beliefs then thats your choice... I wouldn't wish harm on you for what you believe. Yet, for those that like to argue... my beliefs are deffinatly sound for the testing.
-Michael "Radiance"
However, some thoughts on this (from my case, may differ from yours obviously <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) ; as a child, you just... accept things. I wasn't hardcore, I didn't read the Bible or pray diligently or this or that; I did it when I was told to, and accepting things at face value without really caring about it one way or the other.
Going Catholic was just like updating a few things here and there.
However, as I took more interest in religion and it's effects on my life, as well as the mechanisms of the religion itself, I just realized that it didn't make a whit of logical sense, and I became apostate. I continued to think about religion, however, especially with an especially devout mother that continued to press it on me; and I came to this conclusion:
No religion can prove anything, really. You can't prove to me that God is a benevolent being that created the universe no more than I can prove that the way to get into Heaven is to hop up and down on one leg for an hour a day while reciting the alphabet backwards. Likewise, I can't prove that God ISN'T what you say he is, nor can you prove that I am incorrect in my method of obtaining eternal happiness.
My final say? Believe whatever the hell you want to, as long as it doesn't limit, hurt, bother, etc. anyone else. You think that God says homosexuality is wrong? Fine, but don't try to keep anything from them (equality, marriage, whatever) and don't talk smack to them. You think that Glarblurgh the Great wants you to eat nothing but potatoes for the rest of your life? I suggest you take some dietary supplements. You'll burn in hell if you don't love God? Love him, but don't treat me any differently for not doing so. You think that the way to get into Heaven is to hop up and down on one leg for an hour a day while reciting the alphabet backwards?
Have fun.