Traditional Martial Arts

FilthyLarry

<div class="IPBDescription">and today's world</div> I'm sure we're all familiar with the cliched martial-prowess advertising phrase "I'm a black-belt in Karate".

There was a time in my life, when the above phrase had 'teeth'. It meant something. A black belt was something that was hard-earned and commanded respect. Nowadays, it seems that as long as you have the money you are pretty much guaranteed a black-belt, irrespective of age - and with less and less of a time commitment required. To give those not "in the loop" some perspective, there are 'black-belts' age 5 or under !

In addition to all the above, in my experience at least, most Karate schools do not really train you in a manner that provides you with the skills to cope with a 'realistic' self-defense situation. Whether it is the art itself, or the manner in which it is trained that is flawed, is of course open to debate. I personally believe both to be the case.

Does anyone here train in a TMA ? If so, what are your goals so far as training goes ? Would you rate your odds of surviving a violent encounter as better or worse than someone with no training at all ?

Melatonin

way back my freind and I learnt a bit of karate, i dropped out at about the green belt i recall, hes gone on to learn wing chun which he swears by, hes got pretty fast, one of the cool things about wing chun which keeps him so interested is the evil simplicity of it, you generally dont kick higher than the knee level (a kick to the head is as pointless and inefficent as a puch to the foot). you dont punch once an expect that to be the end, you follow with another and another chasing back your oponents balance etc.. its really a very efficent fighting style.

about the usefulness of any fighting style, i beleive its all about the persons willingness to practise deeply enough for it to be absorbed into reflex.
someone much more knowledgable than me told me you cant consioucly use any kind of martial art for more than say 10 seconds of a real fight without being highly trained enough to allow your reflexs to work, else you drop back to your natural reactions.

docchimpy

I say that in a 'real life' situation, your martial arts skills probably wouldnt be all that useful. A guy has a gun to your back. You have to turn around, and then try to hurt him. He just has to pull a trigger. As far as I'm concerned, we were better off with swords and other large pointy objects, but that's another discussion.

evilTurtle

Yes the gun thing is what most people bring up, but what people that have never studied martial arts doesnt know is that a person trigger finger has slower reaction time than lets say turning around and moving the gun away.

This isnt just talke i have studied for about 20 years and have tested it myself using everything from paintballs to blanks. A person can spin and use thier arm to move the gun to where it is pointing away from his body before the other persons reflexes can pull the trigger.

Turtle

Nemesis_Zero

Dragging this thread back on topic, I completely disagree with the common practice of training pupils 'for' their Belts. I did five years of - admittedly not very intensive - Karate and conciously took my time, not getting above the Yellow Belt.
It is a usual western misconception to believe that those Belts are what have to be earned - much like a driving license or a schooltest - when they are in fact only an outwards sign of a proficiency in the martial art. This proficiency, this skill, isn't limitable to the Kata or the piece of Kumite you are to display during the test - in fact, I believe the test should only ever be considered when the abilities of the pupil already exceed its requirements without of focussed training.

The phrase should've never been "I've got the Black Belt in Karate", it should've been "I <i>know</i> Karate."

Concerning the 'self defense situation', I never assumed this to be the aim of a martial art, either. Even Kumite, the open fight between two karateka, is obviously strongly restricted, and rightfully so. The true aim of Karate - as any martial art - is achieving control of ones body, and conversely, mind. Self defense capabilities can be a byproduct, but a karatekas skills can never be measured by how he broke a thugs arm.

Diablus

i used to do a form of martail arts called tai zen, my dad was with it for 15 years. many of the higher ranks he traiened with had to get thier hands lisenced, one guy took out 8 guys on the highway who started trouble with him, then i found out another guy took out 6 guys and is being sewed due to the fact one man needsreconstructive surgery, each peoson was only hit once. so that is considered self defense and i guess the case will be lost. my dad also took out 2 buisness men in roy rogers when i was 9 months old who started with him,

CplDavis

I learned the Korean marital art of Tae-Kwon-Do for many years in 3 different schools. In doing so I learned both the traditional style and the newer modernized style. While it is expensive I wouldnt say that Money is what determines who gets their black belt or not. The poorer student who as potential and a good attitude will go a long way more then the cocky rich one that no one likes.

For what Evil Turtle said is also true.

Police learn of the 21 foot rule as another example. A Man with knife in hand can rush you from 21 feet away before you can draw your sidearm and shoot him.

In terms of all that fancy kicking etc, if your in a street fight, your opnnet most likely wont be fighting by the same rules, however the practice knowledge of how to fall with out hurting yourself and the key points to quickly hit someone is very useful. A martial art with lots of complicated defensive moves that you cant remember will not do you any good. However with a little practice and simple know how you can take advantage of a whole lot in a fight.

Javert

I had a college instructor who learned and taught karate (or one of its forms). A "Black Belt" is only the beginning, he says. There are six ways to hit any one spot of the body. Meditation and peace is held above any violence. Everything from philosophy, religion, health, and concentration comes into play in any true form of a martial art. Being a warrior needs more than brute strength, but a form of enlightment.
Naturally, any practical form of martial art would involve self-defense (coming back to health) and yet the best form of self-defense provides no offense.

TeoH

As i child i did ju-jitsu for several years, and had an instructor with rather strong opinions on the way martial arts were being taught in modern times. He would always point out other schools as examples, and looking around i have to say i agreed with him:

Schools are rushing kids, and even adult students through belts because the idea of achieving the visible trophy of a belt apeals to new recruits. It's commerical, and could almost be seen as a type of weekly entertainment. You can go to demonstrations and see kids still wet behind the ears wearing black belts and practicing a discipline that bases itself entirely around doing stuff that looks cool and impressing people at summer fairs. This isnt practical martial arts, its just a group of instructors making money, and a group of students who like to show off thier trophy belt.

Rat

I have only once formally trained under any specific art form, called cimande silat, and the beautiful thing about silat is that it has only three ranks period. Student, teacher, and master. There are no belts, and the fundamental philosophy behind the arts' ranking is that though everyone is a student all there life, there are some that have the knowledge and capacity to train others and still fewer people who can train others to train students. Silat is an indonesian art, and it is brutal in its speed and simplicity. Rather than teaching us pure forms to memorize and put in a routine, we were taught basic concepts to then apply to situations (ie, fighting in narrow areas such as between two cars, learning to land from any angle without causing injury to ourself and immediately be moving once we've landed) and I think if nothing more it has increased my awareness of my own vulnerability. The two things that our teacher pounded into our heads were: a) never, ever give up in a fight until your dead or unconscious and b) if you look, walk and act like you have the confidence to do all that is necessary, you are less likely to be the victim of a violent encounter. The second one was specifically directed at the females in the class even moreso than the men. Quiet confidence, a sure set to the shoulders and a steady pace give off an aura of surety that most would-be assailants would pass over for easier prey.

Outside of training in Silat, I have learned other situational usages of hopkido (sp?), karate-do, tae-kwan-do and some infighting holds. These have gotten me out of several encounters without a further escalation of violence simply by immobilizing the other party. Being a person without vast amounts of physical/muscle strength, relying on the manipulation of joints and extremities is vital, and without that knowledge, there are times I would have been in deeper than I could get out of. Yea, there's the old "put your wrist between your shoulder blades and push you into a wall" that people know, but there's also the "pronate the wrist, put pressure on the elbow or shoulder and make you sit very still" fun that leaves most people very docile. Of course the one rule I've been taught by every instructor is the simple maxim of <i>never fight fair in real life</i>. Why break your knuckles on someone's face when you can kick on the inside of their ankle and leave them in more pain and incapacitated instead? Why not use a car door or wall instead of your hand or elbow? Simply use whatever is handy that does the most damage in the least painful method for you. People have called me cheap, but I came out fine as opposed to the other person.