Advocating For That Which You Barely Trust
Confuzor
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
<div class="IPBDescription">A "religious person preferred" topic</div> I just came back from a church camp yesterday, and I have to say it inspired me a good deal.
The theme of the camp was "Connect", which was basically emphasizing the importance of community building within a fellowship. The effectiveness of this camp came with a worship which encouraged us to share. Through it, I was inspired with several new goals, one with a main focus of bringing my own friends to see, and hopefully become part of our church community.
Unfortunately, my love and trust for God did not change for the better, (wasn't expecting it to either; I'm amazed enough with the progress of what was achieved in the camp anyways), and herein lies the problem:
If you're wondering what character I have on my avatar, it is Dak'kon, from <a href='http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/p,3/gameId,648' target='_blank'>Planescape: Torment</a>. I use him simply because I felt that his plight was so similar to mine:
<b>***SPOILER WARNING***</b>
<span style='color:041E2D'>Dak’kon is part of a race called he Githzerzai. Their raced was formerly enslaved by another race until a leader among them known as Zerthimon came and freed them. Thus, for their race, Zerthimon is the closest thing they have to a deity, and his teachings are followed by Giths and taken much like faith. The Giths live in Limbo, and if I recall, their home is shaped by their thoughts. Dak’kon decides to become what I can best relate to as a preacher to his people, and he knows the teachings well. However, his own faith in Zerthimon is actually very troubled, (much like mine with God’s), but he continues on, regardless. Eventually, what occurs is that the people know his doubt, and the people lose their direction, some at the cost of their lives. Even with good intentions, his doubt and inability to be honest totally screwed some of his people.</span>
<b>***END SPOILER WARNING***</b>
I feel this same story can be seen in today's reality: There are preachers/pastors/evangelists who are in truth hypocritical bull s*****s, or just plain scammers (google for faith healer Peter Popov). When people find out the truth, there will be hell to pay. The damage can be deep enough that some people will believe that because of the deception of one person or church, it means that the entire faith itself is corrupt. First impressions can be damning. Thus, going over these views, I can only think to myself that I am in no state to witness to others. I am the side of the magnet that repels, not attract. However, this is my final year at high school, and I don't know when or if I'll ever meet up with my friends again.
I don't think taking no action towards my friends is the right action. I really have been inspired from experience at camp to really reach out. I definitely am not going to BS my friends and tell them my relationship with God is fine and dandy, but in a way, that worries me that in doing so, I strengthen their own personal beliefs, (I think they're generally pluralistic - they do agree in a higher being, but they don't agree that there can only be one answer, and to be honest, I wish it were that way as well)
I don't really expect any solid answers here, but I'm just curious as to what words of wisdom there are for people who can empathize with my situation...
Discuss?
[edit]I realized that sh*t, with an additional "ters" got through the filter. Man, do I have to do the filter's job? Sheesh... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> [/edit]
The theme of the camp was "Connect", which was basically emphasizing the importance of community building within a fellowship. The effectiveness of this camp came with a worship which encouraged us to share. Through it, I was inspired with several new goals, one with a main focus of bringing my own friends to see, and hopefully become part of our church community.
Unfortunately, my love and trust for God did not change for the better, (wasn't expecting it to either; I'm amazed enough with the progress of what was achieved in the camp anyways), and herein lies the problem:
If you're wondering what character I have on my avatar, it is Dak'kon, from <a href='http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/p,3/gameId,648' target='_blank'>Planescape: Torment</a>. I use him simply because I felt that his plight was so similar to mine:
<b>***SPOILER WARNING***</b>
<span style='color:041E2D'>Dak’kon is part of a race called he Githzerzai. Their raced was formerly enslaved by another race until a leader among them known as Zerthimon came and freed them. Thus, for their race, Zerthimon is the closest thing they have to a deity, and his teachings are followed by Giths and taken much like faith. The Giths live in Limbo, and if I recall, their home is shaped by their thoughts. Dak’kon decides to become what I can best relate to as a preacher to his people, and he knows the teachings well. However, his own faith in Zerthimon is actually very troubled, (much like mine with God’s), but he continues on, regardless. Eventually, what occurs is that the people know his doubt, and the people lose their direction, some at the cost of their lives. Even with good intentions, his doubt and inability to be honest totally screwed some of his people.</span>
<b>***END SPOILER WARNING***</b>
I feel this same story can be seen in today's reality: There are preachers/pastors/evangelists who are in truth hypocritical bull s*****s, or just plain scammers (google for faith healer Peter Popov). When people find out the truth, there will be hell to pay. The damage can be deep enough that some people will believe that because of the deception of one person or church, it means that the entire faith itself is corrupt. First impressions can be damning. Thus, going over these views, I can only think to myself that I am in no state to witness to others. I am the side of the magnet that repels, not attract. However, this is my final year at high school, and I don't know when or if I'll ever meet up with my friends again.
I don't think taking no action towards my friends is the right action. I really have been inspired from experience at camp to really reach out. I definitely am not going to BS my friends and tell them my relationship with God is fine and dandy, but in a way, that worries me that in doing so, I strengthen their own personal beliefs, (I think they're generally pluralistic - they do agree in a higher being, but they don't agree that there can only be one answer, and to be honest, I wish it were that way as well)
I don't really expect any solid answers here, but I'm just curious as to what words of wisdom there are for people who can empathize with my situation...
Discuss?
[edit]I realized that sh*t, with an additional "ters" got through the filter. Man, do I have to do the filter's job? Sheesh... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> [/edit]
Comments
I have no hatred towards believers , so long as they think by themselves using modern references and not holy scriptures written millenia ago.
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well, here is something that may take you further along the pluralistic path.
Let's say there there is this dude giving two gifts out at the same time, gifts K and S. He says he's the most fair and compassionate person there is. But BEFORE 4pm, he gives out ONLY S, and AFTER 4pm, he gives out K AND S. Now, you can see where the inconsistency is. Why doesn't he give out BOTH K AND S all the time? Are people before 4pm somehow BETTER than the people after? Obviously no.
So we extend this analogy, to whatever religion, doesn't really matter, let's take Christianity since that's the topic (i think). So BEFORE Jesus comes to earth, people of the world who have NEVER had Knowledge of him are given the gift of Salvation(at least in liberal chrisitian theologies). People AFTER he is sacrificed for our wrong doings are given BOTH the gift of Knowledge of him and the Salvation that he offers. Now... with this temporal partialiality in plain view, how can one believe that God is fair? If and only if that one religion is the TRUE relgion, then God is playing unfair favorites based on soemthing people cannot control, WHEN they were born.
what think you?
I believe all the scores get settled on Judgement Day, but I could be wrong. Theology scholars? Wanna confirm/deny that?
did God create hell at the same time as Jesus was born, or was hell always there, but just empty of souls?
just so im not totally off topic: tell your freinds about it, and ask em if they want to know more? how easy is that! if they do, great, if not no harm done.. really!
After that, I think you ended up in Limbo or were stuck in your grave until Judgement Day or something.
Dunno, I'm stretching here. My Italian Lit teacher explained it at one point but I might have been zoning out just a smidgen.
The period on Earth is the defining time of accepting salvation, at least, biblically, on death all will be judged and condemned or redeemed, in the case of those who accepted Jesus Christ's sacrifice, and believed in his resurrection and "took up their cross" and followed him. (Emphasis on that it's not just a prayer that saves you, because without a changed lifestyle it isn't genuine, you'll know what I mean if you've experienced it).
To clarify also, Hell is the absence from God, it wasn't created by him, nor did he create sin, sin and hell are the absence of good, and good is the personification of God. Just like a shadow isn't created, because it's the absence of light.
Anyways, the judgement day you're thinking of is the time in which, in revelation, you have the tribulation and recreation of Heaven and Earth, in which you have the rapture, and the 7 year reign of the anti-christ. After that 7 years, God condemns Satan to the lake of fire for 1000 years ( Correct amount of time?).
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Taking Genesis literally, I wonder how that would be possible. Death did not exist until after the fall. Unless the original plan was to simply go to heaven without the prerequisite of death, (aka Elijah's ascension).
I picked this quote up from a long time ago:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like, guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha". It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it. ... Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end.' [said Ford Prefect]
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (1980), Chapter 30
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In the response to the God being fair/unfair issue, God's perspective of time is not shared by us, which explains why things will appear unfair to us. In addition, Jesus' death was not for those of the present and the future, but for the past as well. You can say that people in the past didn't have any knowledge of Jesus, but the same holds true even in the present. Some remote island in this world, there may live a tribe living in total ignorance of Jesus. Do I believe that they will be condemned? No; God says he is a fair God, thus will judge those people on their own merits.
.....which means I just supported your view of pluralism...
To be honest, I don't really know what constitutes of having "heard of Christ". If some person, for the first time heard some fanatic screaming at him/her "BELIEVE IN CHRIST!", in which the person replied, "Um, I'll think about it...", and was then shortly fatally hit by a bus, does that mean that person rejected Christ? Hell no.
As I said, first impressions can be very damning; when one person or church gives a wrong and untrue impression of Christ which turns away a person, does that necessarily mean that person heard Christ but rejected him? I doubt it...
Confuzor, speaking from personal experience, IF you wait until your relationship with God is perfect, and you're as good a Christian is you'd like to be before you try and reach out, then you'll never ever share Christ with anyone.
Check out John 15, the parable of the vine. I'll copy and paste a few verses:
John 15:4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Basicly Confuzor, God is much mroe powerful than you or I, and it's the Holy spirit that leads people to Christ, you need only let it work through you. BY sharing Christ with your friends, you're never alone in doing so, but you become one of God's tools reaching people. If you go to God, ask Him to Glorify himself to those people you're trying to reach out to, believe me, He will. He did for me. Don't wory about exactly what you're going to say, or how you're going to say it, but just let God glorify himself through the way you live your life, the way you genuinely try and love these people.
2 Corinthians 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
<i>Matthew 25: 35-40 - For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
</i>
I know what I must do...