This Game Is Totally Hacked.
Werewolf
Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19864Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19864Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">If it's in the game, it's in the game.</div> Ok, so I downloaded this mod to try it out, only to find out that it's crawling with cheaters, lamers and stuff. Almost everyone had cheats of some kind, especially the aliens. I kept shooting at one of them , and he kept coming back time and again, as if he was healing himself all the time. And then they had this teleport hack, so they didn't have to die - they just teleported to safety. I could swear they had some kind of wallhack too, coz they acted like they could see me coming through walls and stuff. Luckily one of our guys had a powerful cheat enabled too, caused all kinds of guns and stuff appear from thin air. But, OMG, I even watched one of the aliens use a speedhack, he was moving really fast with a funny noise. And that elephant thing that ran into our base caused all kind of lag, coz I got stuck all the time! WTH!?1!
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Ok, now for real: Why are things like blocking teleports considered an exploit? I mean come on, do you have to search half of the web for everything that might upset someone? Yes there are some stupid situations that can stem from this, like having your commander shout for you to "walk through that **** PG!!" - but hey, the situation is easily explained, isn't it?
If it's one thing I hate (and I know I'm not alone here..) then it's someone shouting "cheater" when you use something that's *in the game*. A few years ago, I got kickedvoted from my own Tribes 1 server (only briefly though, for apparent reasons...) because, and I quote: "Hey, you're not allowed to use the grenade launcher!" <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Ok, now for real: Why are things like blocking teleports considered an exploit? I mean come on, do you have to search half of the web for everything that might upset someone? Yes there are some stupid situations that can stem from this, like having your commander shout for you to "walk through that **** PG!!" - but hey, the situation is easily explained, isn't it?
If it's one thing I hate (and I know I'm not alone here..) then it's someone shouting "cheater" when you use something that's *in the game*. A few years ago, I got kickedvoted from my own Tribes 1 server (only briefly though, for apparent reasons...) because, and I quote: "Hey, you're not allowed to use the grenade launcher!" <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
It's true, because of the amount of choices that can be made, there's a large potential for exploitation (and crying about it) but that's also because we have such a young community for it's size.
NS is now larger than most mods will ever be, and yet it doesn't have 1/10th of that core of dedicated players that can control that sort of flagrant flaming & crying.
This <b>will</b> change over time, but people will be people, and laways find new things to cry about. The best way to think when considering a potential 'exploit' would be "If someone did this to me, would I think it was fair play?" and you'll be fine.
- Shockie.
I consider it an exploit because I don't believe it was meant to be in there; not only that, but PGs are so vital to the marine game. If a PG is blocked for even a few seconds, you could lose that outpost. And that's no small thing.
I consider it an exploit because I don't believe it was meant to be in there; not only that, but PGs are so vital to the marine game. If a PG is blocked for even a few seconds, you could lose that outpost. And that's no small thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it wasn't meant to be there why was it not fixed from 1.04? I somehow doubt the beta testers missed something used in prcatically every game or Flayra somehow did not notice you could block phase gates until everyone began crying their eyes out on the forums.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what ever happened to telefragging? I got telefragged as a onos when I was standing on a PG by accident in 1.04. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 1.04 a skulk standing on the phase would either block it or they would phase in and get stuck in you.
Making the statement: "its in the game so its not cheating" is way off the mark because the majority of cheating is done from things that are 'in the game'. Im no expert on cheaters or hacks but from what ive seen over the years, the majority of those who cheat are abusing bugs; not using 3rd party programs to increase their aim or do other stuff.
One example of a cheat in NS that is 'in the game' is the fact that you can build through some walls and end up with buildings in illegal areas. Obviously you were not meant to build outside the map, else you wouldn't have to use bypass tactics to get there. Therefore it is a bug which means using it is exploiting which means using it is a cheat. Of course this was a bigger problem in 1.04 then it has been in 2.0, though it could simply be the server I play on since they don't tolerate stuff like that.
Oh I'm absolutely not against changing the PG, like having it only telefrag aliens. I'm sure you discussed this (and every other gameplay issue for that matter) in grand detail already.. I just felt a little annoyed when I read that blocking the PG is now considered an exploit by several leagues. Yes, I do think the rines don't have the same chances as the aliens (I recently played 2 games in succession where the aliens lost - and then I remembered that I only experienced about 5 2.0 games with aliens loosing).
But where will it end? "Hey, you <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->, you're not allowed to use spores here!"
What if 2.1 will even the chances for marines again (which I sure hope it does... 2.0 gets old fast when I compare it to the days of 1.04), and the PG blocking won't be changed? I'm sure changing the PG to behave like the IPs do would be very simple code-wise, yet last time I checked there's no such thing planned for the next update.
I just don't want to be harrassed and kicked because I was inadvertedly blocking the damn thing while trying to eat it, that's all. I want piece on the servers and bread for the world. Give me ambiguity or give me... something else. And stuff. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
@Tiax: Well, there's probably no definitive border between what can be considered an exploit and what not, unless the creator of the game stands up and says with his booming voice "Blocking PGs is fine/nasty." - or something to that effect. However, there's a thing called common sense. Building outside the map is obviously an exploit, while the PG thingy is subject to opinion. Don't get me wrong, I respect that. The bad thing is that it generates a lot of unneccessary friction and bad karma among players, keeping them from dealing with the *important* decisions at hand, like "does one drink red wine with his 'rine, or white?"
If you choose D then you can only try and stop people. If someone decides to run away you are NOT allowed to chase and frag them. Sound stupid? It is. And if you dont follow this informal code of playing, then you will get banned from some servers. Funny that the TFC community isnt growing anymore isnt it....
Well, the point is, the PG *is* supposed to work like that. The question at hand would be, was it the intention of the creator that aliens should be able to block an unguarded phase gate?
I'd say yes.
Neither unguarded Alien nor unguarded Marine outposts where ever meant to be permanent and unbreakable. Marines have ultra-fast response time thanks to phase gates, and the counter to marines being able to phase into an area is to stand on top of it, thus denying the marines the ability to phase to your location.
Marines have counters to this. If they really care about an outpost, they can station a man there. If they really care about an outpost, they can build two phase gates which aren't too close. Calling it an exploit because marines wheren't smart enough to plan ahead and use redundancy to guarantee the safety of the area is nothing less than whinning because you left a thousand dollars on the subway and when you came back the next week, it was gone. Protect your assets or expect to loose them.
At best, you could call this a cheese, much like jp/hmg's in 1.04, but I wouldn't even go that far, because I believe it's a valid tactic to keep marines out of an unguarded outpost.
I sat on the PG while the HA were on the opposite side of the map going for another hive and we got the hive building. When the comm finally realised the hive was building he sent his team back to the hive. But found he couldn't use the phase as I was sat on it, but that was only possible for me to sit on it without warning because there were NO defences there.
One turret would have given him a sentry firing warning for god's sake. Should I not be able to take advantage of marine stupidity?
The dedicated players usually find a way to enjoy the game, and happy people don't complain all that much. So, you don't hear much from the larger volume of dedicated gamers. Me? I just can't stand to see a non-flame thread end with a false statement, and that keeps me busy.
its not that you can stand on a PG and block it thats the problem, its that even if its guarded by 30 turrets, you can cloak walk into the room, stand on the PG and then slowly destroy the outpost.
CLOAK WALK is the problem.
it gives the player a way to by-pass your defenses, thats whats not fair.
If they sneak into the poorly defended outpost and stand on the PG, no big deal, its part of the game.
But if they can just CLOAK WALK into a turret farm, stand on the phase while their mate comes in and destroy the farm with Onos gore; thats no fair to the marines!
In 1.04, you were telefragged if you were standing on the PG whether you were alien or marine. The only time you got "stuck" in another player was if you happened to go through the phase at <i>exactly</i> the same time. This resulted in loss of marine players and equipment. There was a big beef about this in the community, so in 2.0, Flayra changed PGs so that they just wouldn't allow anyone through if someone was blocking the PG. This means no telefrags. Alas, this didn't satisfy the community, because a new alien strat arose that blocked marine movement to poorly defended bases. Now, I am in complete agreement with Majin that this strategy, coupled with the new cloak-walk, is very overpowering. I think the new cloak-walk itself is too overpowering for the game, and I'm a kharaa-only player since 1.0 (unless needs say I go marine). The question the community has to ask itself is this. Did you like it better when you would loose hundreds of res in equipment from telefragged HAs, or do you prefer the new way (providing the cloak-walk is nerfed)? Make your decisions, I don't care either way, because it seems like Flayra is in a catch-22. I just want the community to decide, and then stick with their decision for once.
Edit: I would push for allowing the aliens to use the PG again if we were to convince Flay somehow to reinstate the old way. Otherwise, it becomes overpowering.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Jane+Sep 2 2003, 06:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Sep 2 2003, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We need to get someone to officially state what they think about this, on the forums, this thread, announcements, the exploits page, or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an exploit and will be addressed in a future patch.
Max<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its not that you can stand on a PG and block it thats the problem, its that even if its guarded by 30 turrets, you can cloak walk into the room, stand on the PG and then slowly destroy the outpost.
CLOAK WALK is the problem.
it gives the player a way to by-pass your defenses, thats whats not fair.
If they sneak into the poorly defended outpost and stand on the PG, no big deal, its part of the game.
But if they can just CLOAK WALK into a turret farm, stand on the phase while their mate comes in and destroy the farm with Onos gore; thats no fair to the marines! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so you know the aliens have sensory yet you don't build an obs at an outpost vital enough to have a PG? Also though the phase is blocked, that alien can't actually do any damage as it will be torn to shreds as soon as it attacks.
^Hows this an illegal exploit^
Its not
you need to think if something is this easy to counter, it can only be <i>exploited</i> when the marines are dumb, such as not even having turrets there in the first place, and not putting obs at outposts when you find out aliens have sensory, then its not an illegal exploit afterall.
The term exploit is not a negative thing, it means to take advantage of a situation. in NS there are some illegal exploits like building outside of the map, those are wrong and uncounterable. Who cares if no one intended aliens to block phase gates, it doesn't break the game in anyway, it actualy makes a lot of sense that a cheap PG rush can be just as cheaply countered by sitting and chewing on it. marines should require <i>presence</i> at the phase outpost to keep new marines coming through. as soon as your last guy dies, the reinforcements should stop, or else how can the aliens <b>EVER</b> take it down?
Because it's a BUG. Look up. Max said it a long while ago. The new collision code for 2.0 helped keep marines from telefragging each other, but it had a nasty side-effect that, I guess, no one predicted since vets tend to avoid sitting on pgs and portals (and thus, in 1.04, getting telefragged), or no one noticed because it occurred in a fairly late addition... Aliens sitting on top of PGs is sick to the nth power because you can't simply build redundant pgs... That confuses/slows marines to untold degrees if you double pgs at every pg spot (though the cost is manageable).
This is abusable in so many ways, it's not even funny. If the obs isn't built yet, you can have cloakers or, even worse, a chamber, on top of the pg (assuming you do the gorgie-distraction dance) providing permanent blockage. A lone regen onos, especially in d, can walk in, sit on top, and wipe out even the best defended marine base... Heck, a fade and onos in d can actually wipe out a base that's both defended by a few marines AND has a pg simply because the onos can sit on top and stomp while the fade kills it from behind his fat regenerating arse.
We cheereth Max for working on cooler code to fix this nuisance.
The problem with that theory is that flayra is often too busy programming to really decide whether unintentional things are really bugs or if they're supposed to be in. That's what the playtesters are for; however, most of the PTs (including myself) have been practically MIA lately, making it quite difficult for us to get the message to Flay about said exploits. So if there's been a buildup of exploitables it's because of that.
its not that you can stand on a PG and block it thats the problem, its that even if its guarded by 30 turrets, you can cloak walk into the room, stand on the PG and then slowly destroy the outpost.
CLOAK WALK is the problem.
it gives the player a way to by-pass your defenses, thats whats not fair.
If they sneak into the poorly defended outpost and stand on the PG, no big deal, its part of the game.
But if they can just CLOAK WALK into a turret farm, stand on the phase while their mate comes in and destroy the farm with Onos gore; thats no fair to the marines! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cloakwalk onto a phase overpowered? It isn´t, 1 scan and the skulk is in deep poo. If the comm allows a cloaked skulk to sit on the phase for an extended period allowing the other aliens to repeatedly attack the outost till it goes down hes simply a retard.
You didn't read the whole post.
Oh, but if marines can block phasegates, then aliens can block them too, at least at two hives. Just keep an onos next to the phasegate, stomp the first one to get through, and have a gorge bilebomb the base while the onos keeps the marine on the phase. Once the phasegate is down, the onos eats the marine or gores him (if he isn't hungry), and helps the gorge finish the base. Though you do need 2 aliens for this.
Unless chambers would get telefragged, there's another variation possible that only requires a one-hive gorge with some spare res. And I have used that to take bases with bad turret placement down on my own (even though they had an observatory).
It's funny, when you introduce fantasy tech into a game, all sorts of unforeseen consequences start to appear.
That's chasing, you were probably playing on a server where there are many vets playing and on those types of servers, chasing/bridge camping (sometimes called yard defense) is strictly prohibited