Homosexuality

FilthyLarry · September 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">is it always a choice ? consider this...</div> I feel that other threads have been steered towards this issue, so I thought it deserved a specific thread of its own.

Now, not being a medical expert by any means, the following discussion on biology will be somewhat simplistic (feel free to point out any errors). Basically at one time or another a developing fetus is essentialy "gender neutral". At birth a parent hopes that 'nature' has given them either a boy or a girl right ? However, in certain cases, the child is neither / or both - depending on how you want to view it.

<a href='http://www.jax-inter.net/~help/sexdiff.html' target='_blank'>Hermaphrodite</a> traditionally is defined as possessing both male and female sex organs. Usually a decision is made at birth to go one way or the other. The problem is that sometimes the 'wrong' sex is assigned to the person i.e. that particular individual feels - later on in life -at a deep level that they are not the person that the doctors/parents wanted them to be in terms of gender.

In the above case, is it always fair to accuse someone who potentially could have been (or perhaps still has that potential to be) either male or female, of having a non-biological/purely concious-choice driven desire for homosexual sex ? In this case I believe firmly that biology has entered the equation.

My point is that life is not always black and white. What we consider to be 'male' and 'female' simply does not apply to certain individuals. So with the hopefully established point of homosexual desire having a valid biological foundation (at least in some instances), any such claim of against 'nature' seems to fall apart quite frankly.

I also believe that for alot of homosexual individuals, biology has a firm hand in deciding their sexual preferance. Why is it that we have stereotypes of homosexual men seeming to be more feminine in their voice and body language if it were not true for a large number of them ? This strikes me as some sort of hormonal difference in development between homosexual and heterosexual.

dr_d · September 2003

I was also going to make a seperate thread on this subject, but I guess larry beat me to it.

A lot of the other threads were taking a strictly relegious standpoint to this topic so here let us discuss the psychological, physiological, sociological and genetic issues of homosexuality. I don't want to put words in Larry's mouth but in my opinion relegion shouldn't be brought up as a argumentative point in this thread.

And not to sound completely closed minded I will explain why. Homosexuality has been studied extensively in the scientific community and in my opinion has nothing but sweeping generalizations about it in the relegious (Christian, Orthodox) community, so there should be plenty of room to discuss this topic scientifically.

FilthyLarry · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Sep 5 2003, 06:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I was also going to make a seperate thread on this subject, but I guess larry beat me to it.

A lot of the other threads were taking a strictly relegious standpoint to this topic so here let us discuss the psychological, physiological, sociological and genetic issues of homosexuality. I don't want to put words in Larry's mouth but in my opinion relegion shouldn't be brought up as a argumentative point in this thread.

And not to sound completely closed minded I will explain why. Homosexuality has been studied extensively in the scientific community and in my opinion has nothing but sweeping generalizations about it in the Christian community, so there should be plenty of room to discuss this topic scientifically.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I agree dr. d (sorry about the rhyme <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> ).

I would rather religion not enter this thread if possible. Stating that x is not a valid choice or 'wrong' because it says so in some holy text is not something that really lends itself to discussion. Either you believe the text (in a particular translation) or you don't.

Talesin · September 2003

Minor point... a hermaphrodite does not neccessarily have to display the sexual traits of both genders to be qualified as such. The scientific definition is that those who are tri-chromosomal with both sex-determination genes (XXY and XYY, but not XXX) are hermaphrodites. It doesn't need to manifest in any visible form, though a number do. The widely-conceived notion of both sexual parts being one of the least common occurrences.. more often, those who appear fully male develop the ability to lactate during particularly stressful times, when the body's hormonal imbalance may stimulate the (functional, but mostly-dormant) mammary glands.

Those who feel that they have been placed into a body of the wrong sex are more referred to as having a 'dissociative gender disorder', a number of whom become transsexuals to correct the feeling. There are many variants on this, sliding around to aspects which I will not cover unless someone else brings them up first. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

And speaking from personal experience, many homosexuals are quite happy with their sex *and* gender (yes, they are two seperate things.. sex is physical, gender is mental leaning), and would have no desire to become female if given the option.

Euoplocephalus · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 5 2003, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And speaking from personal experience, many homosexuals are quite happy with their sex *and* gender (yes, they are two seperate things.. sex is physical, gender is mental leaning), and would have no desire to become female if given the option.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I would add to this minor point that sexualiy isn't always an either or situtation. Bisexuality does exisist and is probably more common than people think, given that society tends to encourage one to supress any feeling, especialy those sexual in nature, that doesn't support the status quo. We've just started to truely begin to, as a society, accept homosexuality, so I'd give bisexuality a while before it starts becoming a larger issue, but I think it will. Also please note that being bisexual has nothing to do with you actualy have sex with, but who you are, on some level , attracted to. There can be a wide range of feelings, from that slightly uncomfortable attraction to a memeber of the same sex during high school, to not having a prefrence one way or the other, to being slighty attracted to a member of the oppose sex, but prefectly content with those of your sex.

And actualy I'd say that bisexuality actualy supports the biological cause of homosexuality. If whatever changes biologicaly, to make a person homo- or hetro-sexual would obviously also be aqble to vary part way leading to a person being bisexual. Please note I don't think there is a way we biologicaly "should" be, but simply that there is biological varience in humans, and we should accept it.

Marine0I · September 2003

Ehehehe I was about to give some religious right imput here but I see thats not welcome....

Well I know a lesbian woman, I work with her. And she seems really happy, very lovely lady to work with and she is in a de facto relationship with another woman. Now we have never ever specifically talked about her being lesbian, I only found out through other members of staff.

One thing that struck me when I found out she was **** was a conversation we had had previously. I have a lot of fights with my Mother (thank goodness I've moved out of home <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>), and it turned out that she had serious problems with her mother as well. This didnt strike me as strange until I met a few more g4y people. And from what I have noticed, every single one seems to have had a problem with the parent of the same gender. A problem large enough that if you really get to know them you will inevitable hear about it.

Now I'm not saying this is the rule for homosexuality, but it made me suspect that perhaps their sexual orientation may have been influenced by a failure to bond with a parent of the same sex. Of course I bet there are homosexuals out their who get on well with both parents, but in my experience not many.

Opinions anyone?

p4Samwise · September 2003

Or maybe the cause and effect are reversed there - perhaps their parents were intolerant of g4y people. This would understandably cause some friction.

Given how many people on this board come from a relatively liberal and enlightened generation and still condemn homosexuality as a mortal sin, I would not be at all surprised to find that people from a generation or two back would not react graciously to finding out that their children were g4y.

Not that there's anything WRONG with being a homophobe, of course, because we all love the homophobes dearly. I'm just saying it might create some friction.

fo_sheezy_my_neezy · September 2003

I'll just point out that jalot of homosexuality stems from a few things, not genitically speaking. Psychologically speaking, the first question a homosexual person is asked by a psychologist is if he/she was abused as a child. There is an awful lot of sexual, physical, and mental abuse that goes on in America today. Usually as a side effect of abuse, homosexual persons are often confused about what it is they really want in a relationship, and find the comfort of another of the sax sex to be what they were desiring. Another case is simply where people were raised in a homosexual home. They're used to it and have grown up with it as a normal thing, so it's no big deal. I'm not saying all abused kids are gonna be homosexuals, or that all kids who grow up in a homosexual home are going to turn out that way either. I'm merely stating that these cases make up a majority of the homosexual population.

p4Samwise · September 2003

Any articles to support that, fo sheezy? (From a source other than a religious fundamentalist website if at all possible.) I actually haven't seen anything indicating that there are strong correlations between childhood abuse and homosexuality.

fo_sheezy_my_neezy · September 2003

sorry, I don't really go to religious websites, I don't listen to religious radio, and my information comes from personal experiences as well as various books and scientific notes. Lemme see if I can find anything, and I'll let you know.

Marine0I · September 2003

Samwise they are talking about before they decide they are ****. Not many people decide at the age of 8 that they are homosexual, it comes later in life. My friend at work was going out with a guy when she was 18 and having huge problems with her mother. I dont think that she decided she was **** until later. All the other homosexuals I have talked about tell of similar experiences. Their homosexuality isnt defined until later in life, after they have had problems with their parents.

EDIT again let me stress, the above is in my experience purely, I have read no scientific article claiming the same.

Bosnian_Cowboy · September 2003

The idea that homosexuals have some kind of tormented childhood is insane. I have a family member that is **** and he wasn't abused in any way as a child. I don't even know how you can assume that, there is nothing to support it.

Talesin · September 2003

Read. Because that 'most' is quite incorrect. However, it's true that most sexual offenders (rapists, both male and female) are found to have been the product of abusive homes... physically, or mentally in the case of the wealthy. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

And the same question (about childhood abuse) is a standard question for *any* deep-rooted, percieved psychological flaw. The real question is more of 'should it be seen as a flaw requiring treatment'? Very few who do not have a homophobic bias would agree. It does not affect daily life in a debilitating manner, there are no harmful side-effects, and attempts to 'cure' subjects have more often than not resulted in complete breakdowns than any measure of success. At the best, they've resulted in the ability to sleep with a member of the opposite sex. The attraction to their own gender has *never* been fully removed, with a complete degree of success.

And yet again I'm a curve-breaker. I have a perfectly great relationship with my Dad. His only words on the subject were 'It's not what I would have chosen for you, but if you're happy.' before he gave my BF a hug. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> (Though the BF later turned out to be a jacka**. It's not just the straight guys, for any fems that may be reading this)
Honestly, I more argue tooth and nail with Mom, whenever I see her. She has this weird long-standing grudge where she's convinced that I threw away portions of her cookware. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> I don't get it either.

Marine0I · September 2003

Ah, I didnt realise you were a homosexual Talesin.....

As I did say, everything there is qualified by my own experience, and I have yet to see it supported.

Bosnian_Cowboy · September 2003

Talesin, you being **** explains your sig banner. I always wondered about it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Talesin · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 5 2003, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Ah, I didnt realise you were a homosexual Talesin.....  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I make a point of NOT making a point of it, most of the time... simply as it tends not to matter.

And bos, my sig's got nothing to do with it. I was drawing furries long before I realized I wasn't quite straight.

moultano · September 2003

Here's an interesting story for people.

Alan Turing, you may know of him from the "Turing test" which has become a standard test for AI, or from the "Turing award" which is given out annually for the best work in computer science.

He's a good example of what happens when you try to treat homosexuality as an illness. Anyone who thinks homosexuals should just hide it, or be abstinent, or wake up, or whatever you think they need to do rather than being themselves, read this.
<a href='http://www.lambda.net/~maximum/turing.html' target='_blank'>http://www.lambda.net/~maximum/turing.html</a>

Edit: thought I'd add, he's the reason you are reading this forum on a computer.

SkulkBait · September 2003

I don't know a whole lot about homo/bisexuality, or what research has been done as to its 'cause'. But I do remember hearing a theory that sexual orientation was determined in-utero during the development of the fetus's brain by increases in either testostorone or estrogen (got me as to where it increased or how it got there, been a while), and that when the wrong hormone was used the developing brain would take on characteristics more like that of the opposite sex. The stereotypical feminine mannerisms of homosexual males (or masculine mannerisms of homosexual females) would seem to support this. However, as has already been pointed out, this is not always the case (and in fact the evidence for it seems mostly anecdotal anyway). Perhaps the combination of the change in brain development and the social environment the individual was raised in has somthing to do with it?

Whatever the case, there has assuredly been research done by far more qualified people then those who regularly visit this forum, so it might be more productive I went and did some good hard book learnin' before speculating further as to the cause of homo/bisexuality.

Wheeee · September 2003

My take: homosexuality is not a choice, but a homosexual lifestyle is. Many people choose to be abstinent before marriage; they cannot consciously decide not to be aroused, but they can choose not to partake in sexual congress.

Nemesis_Zero · September 2003

First a few points cited from Francis Fukuyamas excellent 'Our Posthuman Future', where he gives a rather unbiased rundown on todays scientific knowledge about homosexuality:

Both the strict nature - as well as the nurture theory fall short of explaining the phenomenon throughoutly. It appears that there are some genes that make the development of a homo - or bisexual tendency more likely, but it can be said that there's definitely no 'g4y-gene' that, if switched on, makes you homosexual. The hormones recieved in uterus seem to be indeed important for the future sexual preferences of a child: Increased testosterone seems to increase the likeliness of homosexuality. Other social influences, beginning with good / bad father / mother figures, strong / weak childhood friendships, and so on play a role, as well. One can speak of a fifty - fifty dependency between nurture and nature.
The interesting reverse of this insights is that we are apparently all to some degree bisexual and then tend to move ourselves towards one end of the scale, depending on our genetical makeup, social influences, and to some extent also personal decisions.
I'm sure Coil, Wurmspawn, and the other biologists in here will be able to give us a more throughout overview.

Now, Whee:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My take: homosexuality is not a choice, but a homosexual lifestyle is. Many people choose to be abstinent before marriage; they cannot consciously decide not to be aroused, but they can choose not to partake in sexual congress. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Why should they? And remember, keep the Bible out of here, we've got that other 18 pages discussion for that tangent.
As Tal pointed out very well, there is no social harm coming from homosexuality. Why should it be shunned?

Bosnian_Cowboy · September 2003

Why is a homosexual act bad?

Talesin · September 2003

A better question to ask is 'Is a homosexual act bad?' (Again, keeping religion out of this.)

As far as I can tell, besides earning a number of individuals' personal distaste (as well as the hate of certain groups), it isn't. It'd be just the same question as 'Why is a heterosexual act bad?'

Wheeee · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Sep 6 2003, 12:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Now, Whee:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My take: homosexuality is not a choice, but a homosexual lifestyle is. Many people choose to be abstinent before marriage; they cannot consciously decide not to be aroused, but they can choose not to partake in sexual congress. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Why should they? And remember, keep the Bible out of here, we've got that other 18 pages discussion for that tangent.
As Tal pointed out very well, there is no social harm coming from homosexuality. Why should it be shunned?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 

Hey, I'm only replying to the initial question.

RyoOhki · September 2003

Some time ago I was talking to a former friend about another of my former friends who had said he was g4y (I'm not friends with the guy for other reasons, I have no problem with his sexuality). The guy I was talking to was acting very strange, saying that he wanted to nothing to do with my g4y friend. Why? I asked. "Because he's ****". So? He's still the same guy. "Yeah but what if he like, you know, trys to do something with me?".

This attitude is not uncommen. I've had the unfortunate luck to run into quite a few homophobes in my time, and the majority of them treat homosexuals like they were sexual predators. Also quite strangly, they seem to think of most g4y men as pedophiles, for reasons I can't even fathom. Attitudes like that really burn me up. Homsexual and bisexual men and women are just like everyone else: normal people just living out their lives. If a man can find the kind of love I have with my fiancee with another man, good for him. I wish him all the best. If two women can find such love, again, go for it. There is no reason why we should treat homosexuals and bisexuals as any differant to anyone else in our societies.

Nemesis_Zero · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 6 2003, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hey, I'm only replying to the initial question.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Yea, well, you should be able to back that reply up with an argumentation. This <i>is</i> Discussion, after all...

Bosnian_Cowboy · September 2003

There was this homosexual kid that smiled at me. That didn't make me have bad feelings for the guy but it kind of creeped me out.

Windelkron · September 2003

I guess it's (currently) unavoidable to feel discomfort when g*ys do anything related to YOU, for example what bosnian said. But you have to understand reality. Just think of the same situation where you are in a situation with people of the opposite sex. You're not going to have the desire to bonk every girl there (well, some do), you might like one. But if you know she doesn't like you -- or more specifically has no interest in pursuing a relationship with you -- you don't go ahead and make advances. Now think of it from the g*y kid's standpoint. He probably knows you aren't g*y, and that you have no interest in pursuing a relationship with him. So I doubt he would try to make a "real" advance towards you (out of fear for himself, most likely; the results of a failed advance would probably be disastrous)

Wheeee · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Sep 6 2003, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 6 2003, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hey, I'm only replying to the initial question. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yea, well, you should be able to back that reply up with an argumentation. This <i>is</i> Discussion, after all...  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Fine, my argument still stands because it's not like they are forced to live a homosexual lifestyle - they can choose to, or they can choose not to. Having the urge to do something doesn't equate to me having the right to, nor the compulsion by force, to do it. E.g. I have the urge to drink a soda right now, and I have the urge not to have to pay for it. Does this mean that I should be allowed to steal a soda from a store?

AllUrHiveRblong2us · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Sep 5 2003, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Talesin, you being **** explains your sig banner. I always wondered about it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Are you assuming that all furries are ****? If you are honestly that ignorant of that topic please don't go making statements like that.

Anyway, as for Homosexuality, I honestly do not see the big deal. If people want to be ****, let em. And you don't have to be uncomfortable around **** people, even if that do happen to be attracted to you. If you're comfortable with yourself then there's no real reason to be afraid. But I suppose I'm kinda a biased subject, since 1)every single girlfriend I've ever had is bi (I don't know why, don't ask me) 2)no **** man in his right mind would be attracted to me, I'm far too feminine, and 3)I've never really fewlt uncomfortable around ather guys anyway. I mean, I know I don't wanna do em, so why should I be afraid if I happen to touch their bum accidentally, or feel them up for laughs. It's no big deal.

Bosnian_Cowboy · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 6 2003, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Sep 5 2003, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Talesin, you being **** explains your sig banner. I always wondered about it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Are you assuming that all furries are ****? If you are honestly that ignorant of that topic please don't go making statements like that.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Ok, Mr. ImGoingToGoAggressiveOnThisGuyToLookLikeAGoodGuy <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

AllUrHiveRblong2us · September 2003

I believe it's safe to say from that post you don't think I'm a furry and think I'm just trying to be moralistic when I responded to your origional comment? Well you'd be wrong on both counts.

Homosexuality

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