How To Stop An Uber Marine (& His Team)?
Tophet
Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 14004Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 14004Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I played as Alien recently in a few games where marines crushed us. They used the following strategy to effect a win multiple times in 10 min or less:
1. Comm placed RT's quickly (& a TF to protect each) and used hotgroups.
2. Sent out Uber marine to guard while 2 others built RT's and TF turrets at each location. This gave the marines plenty of resources early in the game.
3. At this point, I should point out that 4 of our 5 skulks rushed this one guy in Hera's Holoroom and got slaughtered three times before we finally killed him and concentrated on the other two marines. We killed them, but Uber marine came back and killed us before we could take out either of their RT's.
4. While Uber marine was slaughtering us, the comm had a lone guy sneaking around the map placing mines on res nozzles near hives, killing Gorges that tried to place RT's on them (or I'd sacrifice my Skulk to blow them up). This denied us getting any res throughout the game. I never even got to Lerk.
5. We just got 3 DC's before they were killed in the shottie rush that took out our lone hive. They had secured one hive area but, because they soon had us bottled in, never even bothered to secure the second unused hive area.
6. I think the Comm built an Arms Lab and Observatory early on too. At the very end, a couple JP's showed up and they were the ones ambushing us!
7. If these guys are not part of someone's Clan, then I'm a flying monkey.
Question 1: Is there any alien strategy that can effectively combat such evil marine combinations?
Question 2: Would avoiding Uber marine at all costs and concentrating on the marine start have made a difference?
Question 3: If Marines build sieges in alcoves high above a hive to take it out, are Lerks or Fades (with blink) better for taking them out.
Question 4: If Gorges can be boosted up on the back of a Skulk, is it possible for a Gorge to be lifted up by the wings of a Lerk to a high alcove to defend a hive area from just such a Marine strategy as listed in Question 3?
Question 5: What should be the Gorge build strategy to combat the effective 7 point Marine strategic combination outlined at the top of this post?
I'm tired of seeing the same two guys on this Marine team ALWAYS winning.
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I played as Alien recently in a few games where marines crushed us. They used the following strategy to effect a win multiple times in 10 min or less:
1. Comm placed RT's quickly (& a TF to protect each) and used hotgroups.
2. Sent out Uber marine to guard while 2 others built RT's and TF turrets at each location. This gave the marines plenty of resources early in the game.
3. At this point, I should point out that 4 of our 5 skulks rushed this one guy in Hera's Holoroom and got slaughtered three times before we finally killed him and concentrated on the other two marines. We killed them, but Uber marine came back and killed us before we could take out either of their RT's.
4. While Uber marine was slaughtering us, the comm had a lone guy sneaking around the map placing mines on res nozzles near hives, killing Gorges that tried to place RT's on them (or I'd sacrifice my Skulk to blow them up). This denied us getting any res throughout the game. I never even got to Lerk.
5. We just got 3 DC's before they were killed in the shottie rush that took out our lone hive. They had secured one hive area but, because they soon had us bottled in, never even bothered to secure the second unused hive area.
6. I think the Comm built an Arms Lab and Observatory early on too. At the very end, a couple JP's showed up and they were the ones ambushing us!
7. If these guys are not part of someone's Clan, then I'm a flying monkey.
Question 1: Is there any alien strategy that can effectively combat such evil marine combinations?
Question 2: Would avoiding Uber marine at all costs and concentrating on the marine start have made a difference?
Question 3: If Marines build sieges in alcoves high above a hive to take it out, are Lerks or Fades (with blink) better for taking them out.
Question 4: If Gorges can be boosted up on the back of a Skulk, is it possible for a Gorge to be lifted up by the wings of a Lerk to a high alcove to defend a hive area from just such a Marine strategy as listed in Question 3?
Question 5: What should be the Gorge build strategy to combat the effective 7 point Marine strategic combination outlined at the top of this post?
I'm tired of seeing the same two guys on this Marine team ALWAYS winning.
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
I don't think Uber marine was cheating either. He always kept his back to Marine held territory and always kept a long line of sight on front and sides. This is how he slaughtered us, by using range to his advantage. Plus, their excellent comm spammed health and ammo after every rush. They were pros.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Its always good to watch 1 marine use tactics to kick ****.
Next time you have a "Uber Marine" causing you greef, try making him play into your hands, try using SC first to cloak everything, then wait for him to come to you. Ambushes are always the best way to cut down Mr. UM.
Question: Do movement chambers in a given range make offense chambers fire more rapidly? I have heard of players who like to put these together.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I like to do that, but I don't know if it works. I perfer to put OCs inside the range of a sensory chamber, an invisible chamber is better than a faster firing chamber. Although both is best.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question: Do movement chambers in a given range make offense chambers fire more rapidly? I have heard of players who like to put these together.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, putting Movement Chambers near Offense Chambers does not make them fire more rapidly. The idea has been floating around for some time, but I forget if it was ever implimented during a version test. Would be pretty cool though.
As for your Über Marine, do as Majin said and try to get him to play into your hands. All of the assaults your team made against him were made when he was apparently well prepared. If you could catch him off guard and make him play on your terms (so to speak), you would have a much better chance of killing him.
So, counters:
1) Multiskulk ambush. Easiest way, if "uber" marine enters a small hallway with 2-3 decent skulks, he's dead, simple... Not even medspam can save him, even with hotkeys meds come slightly slower than bites.
2) Sensory... Sick shtuff.
3) Lerk. Spores will slowly eat away at uber marine, and most importantly, make it hard for him to hit skulks (it is much harder targeting amidst spores).
4) Gorge rush.
5) OCed chokepoints.
6) Avoiding uber marine... Even a turret farm is no match for gorges with adrenal + skulks, just strike behind enemy lines.
7) Get uber skulks.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe :GASP: that marine DESERVED to be alive! maybe :GASP: that marine team deserved to win!
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
its nice to see at least one person figuring out that marines have a range advantage
Sensory is imo the worst choice even with cloak walk in 2.01d ( which the local servers use )
You must have decent players in your team plus players willing to actually gorge and run around placing sense.
In most pub games thats pretty much a big ask to have, since if u have players of that calibre then its more likely you can win with any other chamber first.
as well as the inital problem, theres also the fact that sense is pretty much useless to the Onos players. DC or movement might still allow u to pull out a win if u cannot get 2 hives and the marines have secured those hives already.
edit : oh we all use CD ( even tho its buggy atm with 4.4 ) due to the large number of hacks available for the HL engine. i see Aimbots etc galore . The typical aimbot i seen b4 we made CD mandatory is pretty easy to spot in 1st person view, the cheat doesnt even need to be facing the target, just press fire and the gun snaps with each bullet hitting .
So, counters:
1) Multiskulk ambush. Easiest way, if "uber" marine enters a small hallway with 2-3 decent skulks, he's dead, simple... Not even medspam can save him, even with hotkeys meds come slightly slower than bites.
2) Sensory... Sick shtuff.
3) Lerk. Spores will slowly eat away at uber marine, and most importantly, make it hard for him to hit skulks (it is much harder targeting amidst spores).
4) Gorge rush.
5) OCed chokepoints.
6) Avoiding uber marine... Even a turret farm is no match for gorges with adrenal + skulks, just strike behind enemy lines.
7) Get uber skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's exactly right. These would all work.
To expand on his ideas a bit and add a few of my own, parasiting is very helpful. You wouldn't think so, but it is. If marines plan major assault on the base, odds are a parasited guy is going to be in there somewhere. You'd know exactly where they are in location to the hive, and knowing where your enemy is can be a very powerful weapon.
Also, I've found that in drastic aggressive marine tactics such as these, their main base has little to no defense in the early game. They can't afford to do this. They focus on outposts and res nodes more than anything else. Organize an attack (group all skulks in your hive, make sure they have upgrades for whatever hives, attack as a single entity the main base). You'd be surprised the results. Marines can have the best damn comm there is to offer.. if a marine spends x amount of resources going aggressive, he subtracts x amount of resources for his base defense. That's very important. Most people want to stop marines from taking hives. While that's usually a good idea, if it is obvious you're not going to be able to retake it back, ATTACK THEIR MAIN (all their guys are in the hive.. take advantage).
The early rush is always nice to get a chance of winning the game quick and easy, however, marines are expecting it. Instead of getting half your team dead on an early rush, sometimes it is simply better to wait outside their base in ambush. Hide on the ceiling somewhere, let them pass by, and follow them until you can get an easy kill (just make sure all marines pass before you drop from hiding spot). You don't get a scratch on you, and your edge against the marines has suddenly increased dramatically. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF AMBUSH.
And also, if getting a 2nd hive is questionable, I would go sensory. Marines don't get motion tracking until later on, so early in the game would be best. A well-placed sensory near the problem area can tip favor towards your team dramatically (think about it.. 3 marines vs 2 skulks = 2 dead skulks... 3 marines vs 2 cloaked skulks = 3 dead marines and 1 dead skulk). And yes, you can't redeem if you get onos, but if you're fighting guys like the ones described, you won't get enough resources to be onos.
That's all I have to say about that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Honestly though, if there are even a few organized marines who can shoot well and a comm with a good build order all they have to do is grab up and electrify nodes early and they will most likely win. A good counter to this is to attack the main base since it will probably be lightly defended and all the marines will be out grabbing nodes.
Of course the vast majority of the time on most of the servers this never happens. So don't worry, this probably won't happen often unless you play a server with a lot of hardcore regulars. And with the number of servers out there its really easy to go find an easy alien win against unorganized marines.
I don't think Uber marine was cheating either. He always kept his back to Marine held territory and always kept a long line of sight on front and sides. This is how he slaughtered us, by using range to his advantage. Plus, their excellent comm spammed health and ammo after every rush. They were pros.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you keep falling into the traps he lays, of course you're gonna die. It's the marine version of making you chase a gorge into a cloaked onos. He's exploiting your weaknesses, so it's time you exploited his. Lerks are strong where skulks are not; one lerk could gas him out, with the rest of the skulks ready to ambush him. That's the most reliable way, but the long list of alternatives would be a good place to look as well.
I'd say he'd be better off the other way around... the absolute accuracy and per-bullet power of the pistol makes it a perfect long-range weapon, whereas the spread and rapid fire of the lmg makes it more suited for close combat. At range, most of the LMG bullets will miss, and close up, you have to be pretty good with a pistol to hit a fast-moving close-up enemy like a skulk.
Personally, I call my 9mil my 'Sniper Pistol' <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
For example, I took command during a game on NS_hera. I managed to relocate the base, capture serveral res nodes including holo room. I managed to fully upgrade weapons and armor AND motion tracking early in the game. I managed to capture one hive location while putting significant heat on another. To top it all of, I managed to upgrade EVERY LAST MARINE with heavy armor and machine guns. Then my original com chair was destroyed, and some jack-**** took command using the one in our relocation position. The man just let everyone run wild and he would not actually take command. By the time the game was finished, we were completely decimated. One dozen HAs have been cut down to nothing. That doesn't take incompotence, that takes SKILL at being a friggin' noob.
BUT I'M NOT BITTER!!!!!!! I SWEAR!!!!! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->