Worship
Grendel
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">An inherently flawed concept?</div> Worship smacks of man and hierarchical organisations. Belief in god cannot be a requirement for salvation, unless your god is sufficiently petty as to condemn eternally someone who may not have even heard of him (think Amazonian tribes for example) or who has been brought up to believe in something else.
I simply cannot buy the idea that a god, if it exists, really gives two hoots about being worshipped.
Is he/she/it insecure? Does god require a hug every now and again?
Getting people to believe that a god requires worship just goes to show how easily anthropomorphising takes place.
So - Worship is a construct of heirarchical religious organisations, not a requirement or even a relevant part of faith. Discuss.
I simply cannot buy the idea that a god, if it exists, really gives two hoots about being worshipped.
Is he/she/it insecure? Does god require a hug every now and again?
Getting people to believe that a god requires worship just goes to show how easily anthropomorphising takes place.
So - Worship is a construct of heirarchical religious organisations, not a requirement or even a relevant part of faith. Discuss.
Comments
- Impy <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for the Amazonian tribes - I believe that at somepoint in your life, you are given a choice to either accept or reject God. And you make that choice irrespective of whether you have ever heard of Jesus or the Bible. If you choose to accept him, then when you die you go to be with him. If you choose to reject him, you go to a place where he is NOT.
However, if you have the Christian message explained clearly and lucidly to you, and you reject that message, then that was the point in your life where you rejected God.
And when you realise all the trouble and pain that God has gone through trying to get us to be together with him, I think you'd want to say thankyou as well.
- Impy <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
can we try to keep this on topic for atleast 10 posts please?
I need to get that book - Does God believe in Athiests. sounds like a very good read
If you're a Christian, you will either find that yes he does, and you can throw the book in the nearest fire, or it will say no he doesn't and you can hug the book and go write a pamphlet saying all atheists are evil.
This includes God, luck, ESP, psi, reincarnation and all that shizzle. It's just the way I am. Live with it. I have a motto: "<i>People can believe whatever they want to believe as long as it doesn't adversely affect me or anyone I care about.</i>". Simple.
But, for argument's sake, let's assume there is a Christian God. He's all-powerful and so forth. In this case I think worship is selfish. You worship god in order to appease him so you don't go to hell when you die. It's out-and-out self-indulgence and discriminatory towards everyone that doesn’t believe in him. You can’t possibly be assisting god in any way by going to church every Sunday because he is all-powerful because by definition he is as powerful as he can possibly be and as he’s ever going to get.
I think religion was developed as a method of populace control. With the side effect of installing some charismatic and persuasive Joe into supreme power as a high priest. Thus installing a hierarchical structure to a previously even social landscape.
--Scythe--
This includes God, luck, ESP, psi, reincarnation and all that shizzle. It's just the way I am. Live with it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
fine.
do you have a girlfreind/wife?
do you love them?
prove it.
Science cant prove everything, but if you want to live you life that way, dont let me stop you.
And no I dont believe all athiests are evil. I believe they have rejected God, but that merely means they have made a mistake, not that they are evil.
Eheheheh Scythe thats a particularily closed minded approach you have there. Ruling out things before you even start the investigation. That means that if there ever was something out there that couldnt be proven logically and wanted to reveal itself to you - your mind would already be closed to it.
And once again - YOU DO NOT WORSHIP GOD TO GET TO HEAVEN. NOR DO YOU GET THERE BY DOING GOOD STUFF.
Must that be repeated over and over for every single person that posts?
Worship is thanks, not support. God is all powerful, he doesnt need our support. He's done a lot for us, and it would be downright rude not to thank him.
As for God, he created from abundance, not deficiency. He doesn't need us, and neither does he need our worship. This is reflected by all Christian rituals as well. They're all about inviting God to join us, not trembling in fear at his feet.
A very good point. I have a girlfriend that I love very much and this could be proven by analysing the hormones in my blood stream when I'm thinking of her or with her.
Now I turn this method towards belief. Is it possible to analyse the effects of belief on the human body? I would assume there is some kind of base tendency of the human body to believe in some kind of divine being considering that the concept has arisen in so many cultures independently. So I could deduce that there is some kind of measurable effect of our brains to cause a tendency towards worship.
[EDIT] To avoid double post:
Religion was created to explain what people couldn’t explain with rational thinking. I "believe" that within a finite period of time science will discover the underlying nature of the universe (I.E. They figure out which string theory is correct) and all the few questions that remain about why what does what will be solved. I predict an awful lot of religious people will be caught with their ponce down. Please don't take me the wrong way. The day I see proof that God exists you can slap a bible in my hand and I'll see you next Sunday. Until then...
--Scythe--
Easy statement to make, but you seem to be a bit short on proof.
--Scythe-- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
in that case, i will never see you on any sunday. There are so many things in this world that cannot be verified or falsified, saying that you only believe in things which are proven is tbh denying a large part of humanity. I'm not saying it is wrong, some people like that way of living, they feel secure. It appears you are one of them
God cannot be proved or disproved, its what makes science vs religion arguments stop dead in thier tracks. The reilgoinist cannot convince the scientist and the scientist cannot convince the religionist. you may as well talk to a brick wall
I think you might be really annoying someone <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Praying, as in communicating with God. I don't usually ask for things, I don't really worhip, I just communicate. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Yeah, like that hey? I would never have guessed"
"Been havin a bad one today Lord, geez my Mom is giving me trouble. And did you see my dog getting into the rubbish bin. Unbelievable"
"Hang on Lord, brb my Mom wants me"
"okay I got homework to do God, so I'll catch up with you later k? Night"
lol
thats like your parent giving you a massive present for christmas and you just open it and play with it. God must be pretty annoyed at you, just like your parents would be
Also, what you refer to as "worship" in an organized religion (going to church and whatnot) isn't entirely about "worship" in its purest sense; it's also a way of getting together with your community. A big theme in many organized religions is establishing and maintaining relationships not just between God and the individual, but God and the community, and the individual and the community.
Has everyone forgotten the third commandment already?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is he/she/it insecure? Does god require a hug every now and again?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the Christian God is very insecure. He even goes as far as saying "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Crazy, huh?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Worship is a construct of heirarchical religious organisations, not a requirement or even a relevant part of faith.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats Catholicism you're thinking of. Protestants is pretty much a "every church for itself" in dealing with stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Hey Lord, hows things?"
"Yeah, like that hey? I would never have guessed"
"Been havin a bad one today Lord, geez my Mom is giving me trouble. And did you see my dog getting into the rubbish bin. Unbelievable"
"Hang on Lord, brb my Mom wants me"
"okay I got homework to do God, so I'll catch up with you later k? Night"
lol <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there something wrong with talking to God like He was your best friend? He even encourages it "Come to Me in all matters."
Most, not all, but most wars were all started due to religion. If God's out there, how proud would he be, knowing that each form of religion in him, all the 'different' believes in him, caused so much pain and sorrow?
Hmmm , we have the same kind of phenomenon over here , NS players worship Flayra for having designed Natural Selection , though they have no hopes of receiving any priviledge. The only difference is that Flayra is real whereas God is hypothetical...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only difference is that Flayra is real whereas God is hypothetical... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is not hypothetical. He is a being you dont believe in. If i believed Flayra didnt exist, that doesnt mean that he doesn't exist or he is hypothetical
Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.
Back that up with some historical statistics, or don't say it.
Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.
Back that up with some historical statistics, or don't say it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Israel, 1967
World War II, didn't start due to religion but ended with it.
Almost every Turkish war back in 1800 something
The last balkan wars.
The 80 year war in the sixteen hundred's, whole Europe was under Catholic reign of the spanish Phillip II, ending in a war against the church that lasted 80 years.
Every war ever fought in Israel was about religion.
Hell, they're all due to different beliefs in something, be it religion or conduct.
World War II, didn't start due to religion but ended with it.
Almost every Turkish war back in 1800 something
The last balkan wars.
The 80 year war in the sixteen hundred's, whole Europe was under Catholic reign of the spanish Phillip II, ending in a war against the church that lasted 80 years.
Every war ever fought in Israel was about religion.
Hell, they're all due to different beliefs in something, be it religion or conduct. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about all the wars ever fought over resources, or territory?
SOME wars may have been apparently motivated by religion (although even in many of those cases I think it really comes down to territory), but to say that MOST of them were caused by religion, you'd have to show me a really convincing pie chart or something. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No problem. Live a perfect flawless sinless life. That's all you have to do.
People condemn themselves. He doesn't.
I'd also like to note that's something you have to experience to understand. It's like trying to define what water tastes like, it's something you don't understand until you're truely thirsty, so to speak.
That has always sounded like a bit of cognitive dissonance to me. If someone was holding you at gunpoint issuing orders, then they shoot you because you didn't follow those orders, they still shot you. Even if they were commanding you to be a saint, they still did the shooting.
Do you believe that damnation is just some natural property of the universe that god chooses not to prevent?