My Forum Sig Quote
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Discuss</div> I have a quote from former US President George Bush as my signature. It can be seen at the bottom of this post. I have it there because I think it's a very foolish statement.
Since I've had it up there, various people have expressed that they are for or against it. Xzilen's most recent comment in the mapping forum prompted me to throw the discussion out into the open.
My view: I disagree with the sentiments of the quote. As an atheist I take offense that I would be thought of as not a true citizen if I lived in the US. I cannot see why an atheist would be less of a patriot or a citizen.
Discuss.
Since I've had it up there, various people have expressed that they are for or against it. Xzilen's most recent comment in the mapping forum prompted me to throw the discussion out into the open.
My view: I disagree with the sentiments of the quote. As an atheist I take offense that I would be thought of as not a true citizen if I lived in the US. I cannot see why an atheist would be less of a patriot or a citizen.
Discuss.
Comments
Bush has made many a statment that don't make sense, and the fact of the matter is that it's scary how he can go on making huge common sense mistakes and not be critisized
EDIT: some info here: <a href='http://www.peachkin.com/bush.html' target='_blank'>http://www.peachkin.com/bush.html</a> EDIT: Note that this source is not unbiased.
Another EDIT: Oh yes, I should contribute to the discussion too.
That kind of ignorance (the quote) really sickens me. Its probably that kind of attitude that makes atheists hate religious types. Now granted I'm not overly fond of religious types to begin with, but ignorant religious types are the worst.
Yet Another EDIT: And in case you don't know already, the "under God" part of the pledge of allegiance wasn't added untill the Red Scare.
btw Ryo - I borrowed your quote in another forum sig <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I guess he is waiting for Xzilens reply. He usually seems to have *cough* a different type of view on things so let's just wait for the one person who thinks that quote rocks, so we can gang destroy him
j/k <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: I was going to make a thread of my own about <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->how third world countries are poor because the people in them are lazy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->, or so Xzilen stated. However I decided to not to make such a thread because it wouldn't be much of a discussion when there's only one person who thinks like that.
Sorry, I'm not trying to attack him personally, just quoting what he said <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Peace.
Regardless of that, let's assume for a moment that it is a factual quote. George H. W. Bush was Vice President for 8 years under President Reagan. After that, he served as President for 4 years. That's 12 years of direct influence over national public policy. What legislations or initiatives either suggested or implemented caused a self described Atheist to find his or her citizenship revoked?
Regardless of that, let's assume for a moment that it is a factual quote. George H. W. Bush was Vice President for 8 years under President Reagan. After that, he served as President for 4 years. That's 12 years of direct influence over national public policy. What legislations or initiatives either suggested or implemented caused a self described Atheist to find his or her citizenship revoked? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess the point is that people don't like to have a president who has such ideals. And it's completely against the basic idea of democracy which is, to my understanding, valued very much in the USA.
15 years ago there were enough people who did want him as President. So what exactly is the point here?
And Spooge, it is a real quote. There's no hoax about it. George Bush snr. said it in 1989 and if you can prove me wrong I will be one astonished man.
aaaah
that makes much more sense
the whole undergod thing was added during the period of great fear of communism, and now it's something that is of great contention.
I'm kind of at a loss on how to discuss this more so I'm going to stop before I make a moron of myself
Well it also seems there is constant legislation in one form or another about that issue as well. I believe you can omit the phrase as well if you aren't of faith.
Never the less its an extremely stupid thing for someone such as the president to say in a democratic society as it goes against the ideals of democracy. The point isn't rather or not it effects policy its if it alienates people who are legally citizens and have just as much a right to be as anyone else. Just because there is "free speech" isn't enough of a justification for his words...he was the president, you assume he is tactful enough not to blatantly offend millions of his own people.
Not being a Christian (or rather: the right type of Christian) disqualifies you from going to Heaven, so why shouldn't it disqualify you from being a citizen or patriot?
Not being a Christian (or rather: the right type of Christian) disqualifies you from going to Heaven, so why shouldn't it disqualify you from being a citizen or patriot? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simply put, because it is a founding principle of this country that its citizens can have any religious belief and not be alienated and persecuted because of it.
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's.
Nations tend to have rules they operate by. Now if a nation, for example a future Saudi Arabia decides in it's constitution that only people of the Muslim faith can be citizens then that's their choice. But when a nation lays down in it's Constitution that all it's citizens are free to practice whatever religion they please, surely that means that people of any faith can be citizens of that nation. Atheists fall under this heading because Atheism is a form of belief.
or am I very wrong here? :o
or am I very wrong here? :o<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The boy scouts in of itself isn't public (I do believe it's non-profit though). They do use public places (schools for example) for meetings.
That is a bit of a derailment. I'd rather hear from the christians on the forum that Bush's quote being unacceptable also implies that "under god" shouldn't be in the pledge.
On the other hand, I have a lot of very closely held liberal political ideals. I believe strongly in both freedom of and freedom from religion, and I think that is one of the essential ingredients in a true democracy.
Obviously, there's a conflict. On the one hand, I am told that I should not permit or endorse other religions, as Christianity is the only path to redemption... and on the other hand is the glowing ideal of democracy, which simply cannot support any particular religion, nor can it condemn one. I think this is the heart of the conflict - one reason I decided not to go into politics was because I simply cannot reconcile my political beliefs and my religious beliefs. Support Christianity in politics, and I feel as though I'm undermining democracy. Support the separation of church and state, and I feel like I'm betraying my religion. I would say that this battle is something a lot of people struggle with, and it's certainly a difficult question.