Israel Vows To Remove Arafat
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Will this help the peace process?</div> Israel, following 2 devestating suicide bombings, have vowed to "remove" Yasser Arafat from his position as head of the Palistinian Authority. They claim that he is an obstecle to the peace process. Story here, but will be all over the place:
<a href='http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7250385%255E401,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0...255E401,00.html</a>
Discuss with regards to regional stability, the ongoing uprising against Israel and the effects of this decision on the peace process.
<a href='http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7250385%255E401,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0...255E401,00.html</a>
Discuss with regards to regional stability, the ongoing uprising against Israel and the effects of this decision on the peace process.
Comments
What you need to understand is that even if they get a leader that is for peace, and make some sort of deal with Israel, theres no way to enforce it, and the radicals, not restrained by a governing body, would continue suicide bombing.
Now, to cover my butt here:
a) I don't think all palestinians are "bad", suicide bomber types, and some may indeed want peace truely, and its sad that they're stuck in that situation.
b) I don't think israel is all "good" either. On the other hand they can enforce the decisions the government makes concerning their own people, something I don't believe arafat can do given the situation.
He is a figurehead, nothing more. It may **** some people off if Israel removes him, but what are they gonna do, suicide bomb a cafe or bus? They do that anyway.
It's best that he's gone, but the mechanism of his departure would likely cause just as many problems as it alleviates.
However, if he's removed, and they can put a more noble face on the Palestinian cause (and have a leader who embodies that quality), who knows.
Peace i guess they call it. All that word means to me is some bigger country gobbling up a smaller one, stealing their resources, and assimilating any survivors so they can be "Safe"
Yeah arafats a shadey fellow, but I'm not quite sure how the PLO is supposed to be hurt by his removal
I wish I had an answer to when the hatred and violence will stop, but one thing im certain is that suicide bombs or attacks from the isralie side, will not do anything to solve the problem. Arafat may be removed, but the hatred of a nation can no t be despersed by the removal of just one man.
All too true, I actually laughed out loud at that.
This isnt two sides just waiting for the first peace opportunity to come along. The Israeli's know that stopping the **** for tat is impossible. They understand the *WARNING BLATANT GENERALIZATION COMING* muslim pysche way better than us, they have been dealing with if for over half a century. And the militant arab is impossible to deal with.
For those of you who think that the Israeli's just walked into Palestine and invaded you really should have another look at the situation. The Arabs actually SOLD land to the Israeli's. All the crappy land. Because they thought militant tribesmen would wipe these stupid Israeli's from their swamps and hole. But the Israeli's bought tech, the Hanaghan protected them while they built their kibbutz, and turned all the crappy land that they BOUGHT into the best land in Israel.
And when they declared independence in 1948 - they didnt have the mass support of the world. They had no tanks, no artillery, no planes. The nations surrounding them had all these things. They got money in the form of donations from the US Jews and Christians, but no government actually supported them. And they looked screwed. Every nation surrounding them attacked them.
And the Jews won. The British did everything they could to help the Arabs crush the Jews and the Jews won. In the end the British had to use THEIR tanks to clear a route out for the bulk of the (correct me if im wrong here) Egyptian army that was encircled.
Now during this war their was the mass delusion that the Jews were going to slaughter the arabs. And you can understand their thinking. Reverse the positions and the arabs would have no problem slaughtering Jews, so the arabs naturally assumed the Jews were going to do the same. So they left in droves, NOT something the Jews wanted. The Jews would have rathered they stayed at home and just accepted things.
Fleeing from the supposed "Jewish massacre", these arabs then created a massive humanitarian crisis, which then meant the construction of refugee camps in the nations around Israel. And once they were in these camps and healthy and fed, the world did its best to help the arabs get back on their feet. AND THEIR OWN LEADERS SHUT THE ATTEMPTS DOWN. Why? So their people could sit in these camps and sulk. So they could blame all their problems on the Jews, so they could recruit Fedayeen to go and attack Israel.
The Israelis won their war single handed, against a force of Militant arabs who got some serious support from the British government. They did NOT force anyone to leave their country, and Ben-Gurion had high hopes for reconcilliation at the time.
No longer. They have realised the futility of trying to deal with arabs, and have taken the "Bomb them to hell" approach. And if you have a look at the stats for innocents killed, I think you'll be surprised at the number of militants vs civilians that they have killed. Its like 3:1.
Why are we sympathising with this scum? Dont think both sides are just immovable. The Israeli's have dealt the militant arabs for over 50 years, and they have come to realise that the only thing that they respect is force and death. The Arabs dont want peace, and the Israelis are sick of trying. Hence Ariel Sharons tough policies.
If I'm wrong then the only way I'm gonna find out is if someone tells me. If the above is blatant guff then tell me.
Thats pretty much how I understand it as well. They worked hard to make the land suitable, and they prospered for it.
Eventually, I believe American evangelicals convinced the US to throw its political support behind it. And then once that happened the US influenced the UN enough to recognise Jewish statehood. I think the world pretty much realised that "Hey, they're actually still alive!" and that they werent going anywhere.
So I really have no respect for the arabs sobbing about how the Israeli's bomb them. The Israeli's didnt always have American money and weapons.
However, Israel is not entirely blameless in all this. Certain factions DID massacre Palestinians when they attacked a town. They hadn't expected resistance, and when it was found to be really stiff, they went in and shot at everything that moved. Palestinian mass exodus had already started by this time, and so from what I'm told that wasnt what caused the Palestinians to move.
And since that time they have also done a lot of really terrible things, massacres, assasinations, etc. But at the start, they did have the higher moral ground.
EDIT Thats what I think happened, I havent actually READ about the world recognising Jewish statehood - off to google I go....
The Turkish Empire was actually weak at this time, so the Brits thought they'd take advantage of this and made a deal with the Arabs that were living in Palestine at that time, that if they helped them overthrow the Turkish they'd give them Palestine. The French also made a deal with the British, which double crossed the Arabs (I think). The Jews also approached Britain (I think a little later) asking them for Palestine since they'd been persecuted elsewhere, and the British agreed due to pressure from the American Jewish community.
When the war was over the Brits ended up giving the land to the Jewish, and the Arabs were pretty miffed to say the least <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's about all I remember, apart from during one of the many wars the Russians threw themselves behind the Arabs, and America behind Israel - making it almost a war between the super powers. I tend to wipe my memory of details when I've finished a piece of coursework <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
edit: I forgot to mention I'm not 100% sure about any of that, if anyone could reply with what they think happened that would be great, I'm pretty interested now someone's brought it up <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
They promised it to the Arabs if they helped the Brits fight the Germans (ie ottoman empire), and they promised it to the Jews if they helped fight the Germans. When choice time came, they decided to take option number one.
One thing that was really stressed to me was that the British were in no way helpful to the Jews. The British asked for the Hanaghan's (Jewish military wing) help in controlling Muslim militants, but at the same time did everything they could to stop the Hanaghan smuggling more Jewish immigrants in. Sorta like two people shaking hands and using their free hands to hit each other.
Then the Brits got a foreign minister that was a blatant anti semite after ww2, and he started to really crack down on the Jewish people smuggling, threw his support behind the Arabs, helped them all they could during the Jewish war for independance, and if my memory serves me correct, I do believe the the Jews assasinated him in the end.
I am completely sure however that during the Jewish war for independance the Arab countries had the benefit of British military advisors, and in some situations the British engaged in active combat with the Jews to save Egyptian forces from being wiped out.
The British involvement in the Middle East was no longer of any profit to them, it put them at odds with their American ally, they had serious concern about the Soviets, and thus pulled out and left the Arabs and Jews to their own devices.
Will this help the peace process?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it will, should they succeed. Arafat is the single most terrifying terrorist in the middle east.
A little joke to even it up:
What do you get for creating your own terrorist organization?
... A Nobel Peace Prize!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Brits rejected the Jew passenger boats from reaching Israel with cannons from their warships when it was being created, and opressed the jewish population.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, Israel is not entirely blameless in all this. Certain factions DID massacre Palestinians when they attacked a town. They hadn't expected resistance, and when it was found to be really stiff, they went in and shot at everything that moved. Palestinian mass exodus had already started by this time, and so from what I'm told that wasnt what caused the Palestinians to move.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to clarify: the "Palestinian" population was planted in the current area by the surrounding arab countries so they could lay claim on unpopulated land.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And since that time they have also done a lot of really terrible things, massacres, assasinations, etc. But at the start, they did have the higher moral ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assassinating a terrorist is not a crime. Suiciding yourself in a cafeteria full of kids that just got out of school is.
No, but leveling a crowed apartment block with childern in it because a terrorist happens to live there is.
And as for the planting, absolutely. When these "refugees" from the supposed Jewish bloodbath fled to the neighbouring countries, these countries refused to get them back on their feet, instead forcing them into refugee camps near the Jews to try and claim land.
However, the Palestinian population that was massacred wasnt planted. It was DURING the war that a certain rather extreme Zionist group attacked an arab held town, and they DID slaughter pretty much everyone.
Assasinating a terrorist isnt a crime, but if that terrorist happens to be the British foreign policy minster......
Here is a good timeline on the Middle East in the 20th Century. Have a look its really short.
<a href='http://www.peoplesgeography.org/Timeline.htm' target='_blank'>Timeline</a>
It shows that the Jews certainly were no choirboys anyway.
Euop, as I said earlier, have a look at how many terrorists to innocents the Israelis have actually killed in their attacks, and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The Israelis have made mistakes, they are VERY heavy handed, but they rarely go out of their way to kill innocent Palestinians.
Okay here is a sight that pretty easy reading that gives you a really good account of what happened. Frankly, in some parts it proves me wrong (i.e some of the stuff I said in previous posts are wrong), but I try not to be afraid of the truth.
<a href='http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-study/israel/israel25.html' target='_blank'>Israeli Statehood</a>
No, but leveling a crowed apartment block with childern in it because a terrorist happens to live there is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about the same "children" who are taught to wield an AK-47 at as early age as 4?
Look people, the "Palestinian" kids are no normal kids, they shoot and throw rocks at the soldiers.
i generally try to stay out of the palistine/ israel thing due to a lack of knowledge on the area, but a recently read somthing about the UD (universal declaration of Human Rights; one of those 'important' documents drawn up after WWII).
one of the articles is about having the right to leave your homeland, and also the right to return if you wish, else recieve fair compensation.
as i understand, this is being denied to the palestinians.
Small hint: "palestine" was never the homeland of these people. They were planted there by all the other islamic countries so they could lay claim on unpopulated land.
Unfortunately for him, Israel ensured that he was repeatedly seen to be weak and without influence with the new Israeli government. As a consequence, he has all but lost the respect of the Palestinian people. Most intelligence sources at present are highly dubious of his ability to promise and deliver on ceasefire agreements.
Respect, once lost, is hard to reclaim. Killing Arafat right now would do little to damage a non-existent peace process. What it will do is appease the far right of Israeli politics.
As for regional stability, it won't help, but the whole point of Israel is that it doesn't help regional stability. But to be honest, you'll not see excessive bitching from the Arab states. The Saudis are businessmen and everyone else saw what happened to Iraq and have taken note that the US no longer gives 2 hoots about sovereignty.
No, but leveling a crowed apartment block with childern in it because a terrorist happens to live there is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about the same "children" who are taught to wield an AK-47 at as early age as 4?
Look people, the "Palestinian" kids are no normal kids, they shoot and throw rocks at the soldiers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whereas some children pick up their keyboard and hurl fallacies?
I can see you are a big fan of self-determination.
Bad absentic :<<
Small hint: "palestine" was never the homeland of these people. They were planted there by all the other islamic countries so they could lay claim on unpopulated land. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its true they were planted there, but how long do you have to stay in a place before it becomes your homeland? My family imigrated to America in the 1930's, by which point arabs were already living in Israel/Palestine. I consider America my homeland, not the Czech Republic, which I've never visted. Why can't person who was born in Palestine, consider it their homeland?
I personaly find your implication that <i>all</i> Palestinian kids are taught to use an AK, and hurl rocks at soldiers somewhat offensive. I sure some do. I'm equaly sure that there are many who don't. And even if they have been taught to use an AK, does that somehow negate their right to life, negate the fact that they are a civilian and as such should not be targeted by the military? And will not military attacks upon civilians (as I'm sure many people see a helicopter firing a stream of rockets into a aparment block as) increase both the haterd towards the Isreali military, and as such encouraging the pratice of stealing the childern's childhoods by teaching them to weild weapons and hurl stones?
To be perfectly frank if Israel removed all military forces from Palestine this very day it might not change a thing, but if they did every time a Palestinian extremist attacked Israel under the guise of stopping oppression in Palestine they would have absolutely no credibility and people would simply cease to support these actions. I'm sure it would be an unpopular method among Isralies sitting by doing nothing while they get attacked, but look what constant military activity has gotten them, ten thousand people willing to lay down their lives for Arafat. Additionally, if attacks from Palestine kept up after Israel withdrew eventually they would build enough grounds to proclaim a just cause for war, and if it came to that they could actually get sanctioned support from other nations.
Turkey quickly crushed down at th source suicde bombers and organizations related to them militarily WITH NO HARM TO CIVILIAN POPULATION of the kurds.
They then pumped money in the kurdish parts to develop life and community so they wouldnt be hated so much. Also gave jobs and started giving them a real peaceful society.
Russia on the other hand, sent troops in and killed a whole bunch of innocent chechnyans(bl3h), not paying much heed to their peoples. Then they just sat there and let it rot.
See the mistakes? hope ya did.