<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sounds like you had stopped them right there. I mean all their military targets and cities in ruble. Sounds like they couldn't have conquered anyone at that point?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I durnno. They were still fighting, which is why invasion plans were drawn up. And even then they probably would have fought till the end. Or perhaps close to the end before surrendering (I can't believe even with the pride, that the emperor would let his people get totally obliterated)
After the war we occupied japan till the 50's. Not sure how many billions we spent rebuilding everything we just blew up at the cost of billions....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And was China communistic then? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not sure, but I don't think they were communist yet
So it sounds like they were able to defend but not attack. Not in large scale anyway.
And isn't this "They were part of Axis and we had to make them surrender before we could go home" some sort of pride too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> At the cost of thousands of lives.
Probably, but I'm guessing the mindset at the time is the axis forces initated the conflict, and put everyones lives through hell for 4+ years. They weren't just going to stop when they got to japan and go home, they were going to finish the job, oust the leader, occupy the country, and make sure they don't decide to re-arm and try again after we leave. This part is an area I'm not too familiar with so I can't really comment too much on it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Burncycle+Sep 15 2003, 04:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burncycle @ Sep 15 2003, 04:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Justified? Nessisary? Could something else have been done? Whatever, discuss here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Japanese soldiers during World War II were a scary lot. They had been trained to fight to the death, didn't believe in surrendering, and had much more combat experience than there American counter-parts. An invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been similar to the allied assault of Hitlers atlantic wall. The difference would have been that the Japanese would have thrown all their forces at repelling the invasion, plus once we got inland we would have almost certainly been involved in partisan warfare until we marched on Tokyo. The dropping of nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki not only saved hundreds if not thousands of American (and probably Japanese) lives, it prevented the war from extending atleast another 6 monthes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Sep 17 2003, 02:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Sep 17 2003, 02:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And was China communistic then? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> China didn't become a communist nation until 1949, although there was a strong communist movement that started in the 1920's, I believe.
Japan didn't expand its Korean and Chinese holdings simply to change their maps. As an island nation, Japan was dependent on other nations for resources. Especially the oil and rubber necessary to fuel their war machine.
Japan invaded China after Japan destroyed their own railway as a pretext for an invasion. In 1932, a puppet government was set up and order was imposed by the Kwantung army, the most powerful of the Japanese forces. That same year, a physician by the name of Ishii Shiro returned from Europe and urged military leaders to investigate biological weapons. He set up the Epidemic Prevention Laboratory in a military school with full military support. At the same time, he set up a small outfit in Manchuria which was secret and known as the Togo unit. The unit wanted to and did use human subjects for their experimentation. The Tokyo lab researched biological defenses while the Togo unit researched offensive uses.
In 1941, the unit became known as Unit 731 after a series of name changes. By this time, Ishii Shiro, now a colonel, had 3,000 staff members in Unit 731 and over 20,000 under his command total.
<a href='http://shenware.virtualave.net/his_unit731.shtml' target='_blank'>Japanese bio-weapons program from the 1930's to the end of World War II</a>
Okay listen. Here are the mechanics of owning a nuke.
You have a nuke to A) Attack or B) Defend
(to steal from Dread's idea)
right? Everyone will hopefully agree with me on that. We can't say A unless we know for a FACT that they CAN attack and they don't. In other words, the only reason countries don't think USA will nuke their country this very second is because we could have before and haven't.
However, if a country is trying to get nukes, there is nothing that says they won't attack once they get them, due to lack of being capable of launching them. Remember the decision isn't based on the people who live in the country, but a facist dictator that hates USA and probably isn't going to be in the country when he gives the order to launch. If you're country blows up, who cares?? You're a dictator.
In fact, if you had a nuke, you'd automatically have B, right? If you used the nuke, you would no longer have B, right? Wrong! If you attacked, you'd in fact have GREATER leverage in blackmailing countries because they KNOW you'd use it (since you just have). What happens if you just used your last nuke? Do you think countries would take the risk of getting nuked again? I sincerely doubt it. It is a poker bluff that will NEVER get called upon. So, all arrows point to A. USA doesn't use the nukes, because it would look endlessly bad for the president constantly trying to maintain an image for the next election.
Ultimately, it is the leaders that make these decisions, not the people. If you had taken a poll the very second Truman decided to launch the nukes on Japan, I sincerely doubt a majority of people would have agreed (assuming they knew what a nuke does). I don't see how using a nuke would lose you any leverage whatsoever. All it takes is a trigger-happy dictator to get into power, and we have a nuclear winter that follows.
Comments
I durnno. They were still fighting, which is why invasion plans were drawn up. And even then they probably would have fought till the end. Or perhaps close to the end before surrendering (I can't believe even with the pride, that the emperor would let his people get totally obliterated)
After the war we occupied japan till the 50's. Not sure how many billions we spent rebuilding everything we just blew up at the cost of billions....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And was China communistic then? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not sure, but I don't think they were communist yet
And isn't this "They were part of Axis and we had to make them surrender before we could go home" some sort of pride too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> At the cost of thousands of lives.
The Japanese soldiers during World War II were a scary lot. They had been trained to fight to the death, didn't believe in surrendering, and had much more combat experience than there American counter-parts. An invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been similar to the allied assault of Hitlers atlantic wall. The difference would have been that the Japanese would have thrown all their forces at repelling the invasion, plus once we got inland we would have almost certainly been involved in partisan warfare until we marched on Tokyo. The dropping of nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki not only saved hundreds if not thousands of American (and probably Japanese) lives, it prevented the war from extending atleast another 6 monthes.
China didn't become a communist nation until 1949, although there was a strong communist movement that started in the 1920's, I believe.
Japan didn't expand its Korean and Chinese holdings simply to change their maps. As an island nation, Japan was dependent on other nations for resources. Especially the oil and rubber necessary to fuel their war machine.
Japan invaded China after Japan destroyed their own railway as a pretext for an invasion. In 1932, a puppet government was set up and order was imposed by the Kwantung army, the most powerful of the Japanese forces. That same year, a physician by the name of Ishii Shiro returned from Europe and urged military leaders to investigate biological weapons. He set up the Epidemic Prevention Laboratory in a military school with full military support. At the same time, he set up a small outfit in Manchuria which was secret and known as the Togo unit. The unit wanted to and did use human subjects for their experimentation. The Tokyo lab researched biological defenses while the Togo unit researched offensive uses.
In 1941, the unit became known as Unit 731 after a series of name changes. By this time, Ishii Shiro, now a colonel, had 3,000 staff members in Unit 731 and over 20,000 under his command total.
<a href='http://shenware.virtualave.net/his_unit731.shtml' target='_blank'>Japanese bio-weapons program from the 1930's to the end of World War II</a>
Read all about it.
You have a nuke to
A) Attack or
B) Defend
(to steal from Dread's idea)
right? Everyone will hopefully agree with me on that. We can't say A unless we know for a FACT that they CAN attack and they don't. In other words, the only reason countries don't think USA will nuke their country this very second is because we could have before and haven't.
However, if a country is trying to get nukes, there is nothing that says they won't attack once they get them, due to lack of being capable of launching them. Remember the decision isn't based on the people who live in the country, but a facist dictator that hates USA and probably isn't going to be in the country when he gives the order to launch. If you're country blows up, who cares?? You're a dictator.
In fact, if you had a nuke, you'd automatically have B, right? If you used the nuke, you would no longer have B, right? Wrong! If you attacked, you'd in fact have GREATER leverage in blackmailing countries because they KNOW you'd use it (since you just have). What happens if you just used your last nuke? Do you think countries would take the risk of getting nuked again? I sincerely doubt it. It is a poker bluff that will NEVER get called upon. So, all arrows point to A. USA doesn't use the nukes, because it would look endlessly bad for the president constantly trying to maintain an image for the next election.
Ultimately, it is the leaders that make these decisions, not the people. If you had taken a poll the very second Truman decided to launch the nukes on Japan, I sincerely doubt a majority of people would have agreed (assuming they knew what a nuke does). I don't see how using a nuke would lose you any leverage whatsoever. All it takes is a trigger-happy dictator to get into power, and we have a nuclear winter that follows.