Walk into any highschool, or junior high, and theres my proof <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
if you mean people pick it up from their freinds, as in they find out about it that way, i can beleive it.. but liking somthing <i>just</i> because everyone else does...? perhaps...
I take contention with your thesis on nearly every point, but others have already answered a number of them, so I won't repeat. I would like to nitpick on two specific examples you chose, simply because I have so much information on these specific topics, and those are on FLCL ("Furi Kuri / Fooly Cooly") and Gundam.
FLCL is by no means the bottom of the heap, nor is a bunch of random scenes stuck together, although it looks like it the first time you watch it through. It's an anime about growing up into a world you don't understand... and this theme is emphasized by making the show incomprehensible forwards, but fully comprehensible backwards. Just like real life. How many of you understood high-school while you were in it? How many of you understand high-school a little better now that you've been through it all?
Okay, maybe I'm over reaching here. Middle-school then?
School was an artificially constructed society with no direct goals other than the vague "education" which, as most of us know, didn't work very well. But when you were mired in it, all you could see were the walls from the inside. From the outside it looks so much different.
FLCL is the same. You don't understand what's going on the first time round because the terms and rules have not yet been described to the viewer. Watch it once through fully, then watch it a second time. I guarantee that ever scene makes perfect sense. In a font color that matches the background, I have laid out the superficial plot of FLCL (highlight to read).
--------------------------------------------------- <span style='color:#041E2D'>So we've got Atomsk, god-like energy being who is known as the Pirate King because he can steal entire star systems. And we've got Haruko, who is a space alien that wants Atomsk's power. Eyebrows dude says she fell in love with him, but from her reactions in the last episode, that doesn't seem likely, she just wants his power.
Medical Machina has somehow imprisoned Atomsk, possibly using him as a renewable energy source. This might be considered laudable, except for the fact that they're using this power to flatten worlds. In order to continue with flattening this world though, they need to bring in the giant hand robot that will wield the iron. Instead of using spaceships though, they use a hyperspacial gateway system that is activated by the corpus collosum (the interaction between the left and right hemispheres of the brain). Not all brains are suitable for this purpose, but our protagonist's is, so Haruko is there with him to intervene. Not because she cares about earth, but because SHE wants Atomsk's power. She's really just using the kid.
It's slightly unclear as to how Naota is able to free Atomsk, but I suspect it has something to do with Naota's unique gateway and Medical Machina getting too cocky with using Atomsk's power. They overloaded their system or something, I don't know. Whatever happened, Naota suddenly finds himself infused with Atomsk, the Pirate King himself. He's not controlling Atomsk though, it's the other way around. It has been the other way around right from the start, even with Canti. Naota facilitates Atomsk, but doesn't command him like Haruko wants to do.
Atomsk fights with Haruko, while Naota fights with Atomsk behind the scenes. Or perhaps he fights for Atomsk. Either way, Naota somehow manages, at the right moment, to completely kick Atomsk out of his body, and out of Medical Machina's trap as well. Atomsk smashes the hand, drops the Iron, and flies away, forcing Haruko to chase him again, leaving Naota behind.</span> ---------------------------------------------------
But beyond that...
Here is what a friend of mine says about one of the more obvious underlying themes of the show (in the Freudian tradition)
---------------------------------------------------- <span style='color:#041E2D'>I think the best thing about the show is Naota's insistence that "nothing ever happens here," a common enough adolescent complaint. Even though he's got robots popping out of his head and giant hands threatening to iron everything to death, it still seems to him like nothing "special" is happening. He's reacting not only to the miasmal dullness that hangs over Mabase (the yellow fog), but to the fact that all the adults around him seem clueless and self-absorbed. He's on the cusp of adolescence, and able to see childhood and adulthood from the same vantage point. Naota reminded me a bit of Holden Caulfield, railing against the "phonies" around him and the vapidness that permeates adult life.
Sex, of course, changes everything; and is delivered to Naota via a bass guitar to the head. Like any adolescent, he has difficulty keeping things under control, but by the sixth episode he is able to reconcile his feelings and admit to Haruko that he loves her. He's taken the first step into adulthood by doing so; and clears the "phoniness" and self-absorbed **** away.
---Maverick (on another messageboard)</span> ----------------------------------------------------
I could go on. I've shown it to my mother, for example, who insists its an allegory for someone dealing with the horrors of childhood incest. I can also see areas where it talks about masculinity, and what it means to be a man and how that is to be displayed (here I'm referring to "those eyebrows"). It uses dreamlike communication to convey a powerful point. Dreams don't make much sense, but they can mean things, and the study of them is rewarding still. It uses symbols to say what it needs to say, and leaves interpretation to the viewer, which is what all good stories do. This one is just told differently...
Enough about FLCL. Then we have Gundam, which is, quite frankly, the Japanese equivalent to Star Wars, especially when it comes to merchandising and marketing. The theme here is "War Sucks" but it communicates this on many, many different levels. It is NOT, by any means, about millions of indestructible machines going against other indestructible machines. It is about politics and compassion and understanding and the difference between childishness and maturity.
While the face of the show, the technical bits and tactics and history and all the things that make up a setting are as internally consistent as any technical show in America that attracts geekhood (Star Trek/Wars comes instantly to mind, but there are others, including Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series) and studying these things can be fascinating to one wanting to learn about physics and orbits and theoretical colonization methods... it's the interaction between the people which makes Gundam really interesting.
Gundam was the first "giant robot" style anime aimed at adults instead of children. Before Gundam, all giant robots were single, self aware beings constructed by some boy's dead father and given to said boy to take care of. In Gundam, robots aren't self aware, they're tools similar to guns, used to kill other people who may or may not be good themselves. Sure, this theme isn't new today, but at the time, it was shocking (in Japan).
Gundam was a show that wasn't afraid to kill characters. In fact, one of the show's favorite things to do was to introduce a main character, detail that character enough that you get to like that person's story, get to sympathize with that character, and then they kill that character. Not in a heroic blaze of glory, but in a stupid accident... a stray shell blowing up a ship fleeing battle. Or a tactical error. Miscommunication between troops and commanders leading to friendly fire. Little things like that.
Despite artwork that is considered poor quality today (not quite as bad as speed racer...) the original Gundam series is still enjoyable today for its themes, messages, fluff, characters, and the story itself. Zeta Gundam is just as good, and with better artwork.
On the other hand, certain spinoffs such as, oh, say, "Gundam Wing" take all the fluff of Gundam (nothing wrong with fluff, as long as there's some substance beneath it... condiments are not the meal) and a bunch of superficial similarities and call it Gundam... completely missing the point of the original show.
Going into depth about these two shows wasn't just to show off my geekery, although there's nothing wrong with that, but rather to demonstrate the reason why some people enjoy anime: DEPTH. And don't think that because I like anime so much, I don't like American movies. I do... when they have the same quality and depth. Road to Perdition, for example. The 6th Sense, Unbreakable, Signs. Minority Report. I like stories with depth and emotion, and I don't care where the source is...
If I disliked anime for the sake of xenophobia, look at all the stories I'd be missing out on! Gasaraki, Brain Powered, Eva, Miyazaki's work at Studio Ghibli, Cowboy Bebob, Escaflowne... the list goes on. All VERY GOOD STORIES. And I LOVE good stories, whatever the source.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
Why are people obssesed with Japanese culture?
Here's a simple answer: BECAUSE THEY LIKE IT!!!!!
The Japanese media has been in the business of making TV shows, movies, comics, etc, that are prefered by a certain type of person for decades now, they make things that a certain type of person likes. Just because we in the US have only been recently exposed to it doesn't mean that those of us who enjoy that are "obsessed with the Japanese culture." We are obsessed with what is appealing to us, the Japanese culture just happens to be what is appealing.
And either way, why don't you just let people enjoy it without complaining? No one's forcing you to watch FLCL or anything. It's the same with all subcultures basically. People whine and moan about "Oh I hate ravers" or "Oh I hate furries" or "Oh I hate punks", or "Oh I hate this group and that group". Good for you! But what have any of these groups ever done to you? Nothing but exist and be different from you, so just stop ragging on other people's tastes please.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
My instinctive, rather flippant response to this, would be because America lacks much of a culture of its own.
Get some history, nubs. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
You think America is lacking in culture? America is a dominating force in movies and music. For a country that has been in existence for 200 years it has quite a collection of literature, too.
Check a few of these out: Ernest Hemingway Mark Twain John Steinbeck Arthur Miller Edgar Allan Poe
Even better, here is a website with a good list of them - <a href='http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/amlitchron_index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/amlitchron_index.html</a>
Maybe you should be the one reading up on the history. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Alright, I'll say it, I like anime. I like Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, Trigun, HellsinG, and many more.
I'm not obsessed with japanese culture, although it DOES have a tie in with what I want to do with my life (video games). I have asian friends, many of them, and they hate anime, they'll point to a random anime DVD in a store (usually CB) and say "Damn, that looks like cowboy porn." or some crap. My anime viewing habits are basically still "in the closet" because I don't have a steady source of income yet that would allow me to buy the stuff I want (I'm close though).
I do plan on buying the anime DVDs I want, I also plan on buying the american shows I want (such as Futurama, Family Guy, and Undergrads. Right now I only have futurama seasons 1 and 2 on DVD.)
It's funny, they criticize me for what I like, and I barely criticize them about what they like (CS, DoD (DoD is damn good though.) and DDR (sometimes...))
(If that was a disconnected lump of garble then I apologize, I revised a bit.)
Well, as mentioned before, much of the appeal comes from the fact that the cultures are so far removed from each other. Japanese culture is very alien to the average american, and obviously it will work both ways.
Ontop of that, America certainly produces enough media for other countries to laud over, considering the truely incredible amount of time America devotes to advertising and glorifying itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--a8085+Sep 17 2003, 10:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a8085 @ Sep 17 2003, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Funny. I'm a Japanese and I can assure you that all my friends would agree that Japanese people are brainwashed by American culture. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Translate my manga!
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Sep 16 2003, 07:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Sep 16 2003, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You think America is lacking in culture? America is a dominating force in movies and music. For a country that has been in existence for 200 years it has quite a collection of literature, too.
Check a few of these out: Ernest Hemingway Mark Twain John Steinbeck Arthur Miller Edgar Allan Poe
Even better, here is a website with a good list of them - <a href='http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/amlitchron_index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/amlitchron_index.html</a>
Maybe you should be the one reading up on the history. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, besides what you've stated, we really don't have ancient history to back us. The US is not very old by any means..
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Given that printing and thus literature didn't take off until around the founding of America and has been dominated by the ENGLISH language, it's hardly suprising that you can list a lot of authors.
My comment was a joke anyway. No wonder people keep getting bombed.
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Sep 17 2003, 06:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Sep 17 2003, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Given that printing and thus literature didn't take off until around the founding of America and has been dominated by the ENGLISH language, it's hardly suprising that you can list a lot of authors.
My comment was a joke anyway. No wonder people keep getting bombed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I could have sworn the printing press was invented before the Catholic church even split up much less before Puritans colonized America. And I could have also sworn it was invented in Germany so why can't we name a bunch of german authors?
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Infinitum+Sep 17 2003, 08:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infinitum @ Sep 17 2003, 08:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--a8085+Sep 17 2003, 10:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a8085 @ Sep 17 2003, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Funny. I'm a Japanese and I can assure you that all my friends would agree that Japanese people are brainwashed by American culture. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Translate my manga! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Pwned.
This is quite an interesting discussion. Just one question I have: What does Japan's ancient cultural history have to do with their modern culture? I have this hunch that manga didn't exsist before the 1900s. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for that anti William Gibson comment, how about some backup? Like a well made anti-Gibson site for example. I have never read his books though, but I do know that he is a well known person to some.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is quite an interesting discussion. Just one question I have: What does Japan's ancient cultural history have to do with their modern culture? I have this hunch that manga didn't exsist before the 1900s. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think most of Japan's ancient culture is lost today. Japan was a less developed nation two times. Once around 1800s and another at 1945. After those two times, Japan imported everything they can to catch up to the world and most of the ancient cultures were lost at these time. Japan's culture today is a mix of all the stuff we imported.
As for manga, the word manga alredy existed in the 1600s but the base of manga that we talk about today came up around 1950. This base was created by a comic artist named Osamu Tezuka who was influenced very much by Hollywood movies camera tequnique. So the Japanese manga you read today originally came from Hollywood.
You may not think it, but the opposite is happening in Japan as well. There are McDonalds everywhere, and they are all learning english instead of Japanese alphabet in schools. They celebrate christmas (even those that are athiest) and new years. They watch japanese-dubbed movies produced straight out of hollywood.
Needless to say, our culture is creeping into theirs like theirs is creeping into ours. In fact, this has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that the internet has bound countries together. Cultures are starting to merge, and I estimate that in 50 years, most cultures will be virtually similar in many respects. Italians will speak english like americans speak english like english speak english like japanese speak english etc. The barrier which caused unique cultures to form has been broken, and this is the side effect. I know for a fact that everyone in italy 20 or younger speaks fluent english, whereas older generations only know italian still. This proves the change in the past 20 years. This change will only accelerate too.
Don't look at me like I'm crazy. It's perfectly obvious. Check the name of the thread. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--lazygamer+Sep 17 2003, 06:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lazygamer @ Sep 17 2003, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for that anti William Gibson comment, how about some backup? Like a well made anti-Gibson site for example. I have never read his books though, but I do know that he is a well known person to some. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why would I need to back up an opinion? I don't like his writing and I think he is overrated. Popularity doesn't mean Anne Rice is a good writer then why should it mean William Gibson is one?
Like Cowboy Bebop, there are other anime series which kick **** and are awesome. Obviously they all have their own unique flavor, like comedies and such. Cowboy Bebop is still the cream of the crop IMO - although I haven't actually seen much anime. I've been fortunate to see the good stuff, and I was never patient enough around the hardcore anime fans to get heavily exposed as Teflon was - Tef, you need more friends <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Spirited Away was amazing too..
As for William Gibson, he is extremely intelligent, and in Neuromancer he crams in all this weird crap which makes it pretty good, but the feel of it is so obviously white and so 80s it turns me off.
Now with 'Eastern' religion, you have to get away from perhaps your preconceived notion. Yes religion is religion, but you see how well it is integrated as a way of life ... I cannot speak for Japanese people but you see in China - hmm, words escape me now.
But understand that Confucius said, to paraphrase, y bother with the things of the afterlife when you do not even know about this one?
And that, in Chinese heaven, there is an emperor and his court and officials, and in Chinese hell, there is an official who presides over judgment and punishing and such. The entire Chinese governmental system is represented in the afterlife. Of course they look badass and live forever and have crazy superhero powers, but it is basically the real life extended into the afterlife.
Also know that the Chinese emperor is not an emperor at all, but the Son of Heaven. That is his title, along with betterthanking-superleader, roughly a.k.a. imperial lord.
So in daily life the great ruler of the Chinese empire is the Son of Heaven. The term for empire is still roughly equivalent with the English tho.
A side note: Chinese Son of Heaven differs from Japanese Son of Heaven ( who imported the term from Chinese, but have their own spin ). In China, it means he is the one favored by Heaven, the chosen one, whereas in Japan, it means he is literally the Son of Heaven, a divine being descended from Heaven.
And although the Chinese sky has an emperor, when referring to what would be 'God' in the English, Chinese just say Heaven. Heaven this and Heaven that, instead of a God doing this and that. 'Heaven' is also the same word for 'day'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would I need to back up an opinion? I don't like his writing and I think he is overrated. Popularity doesn't mean Anne Rice is a good writer then why should it mean William Gibson is one?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that's fair, some people are overrated and popularity doesn't equal quality. It's just that I like reading in-depth explanations. This is your opinion though, and opinions are still good sometimes.
I read the topic, and I must say, the Japenese are probably more obsessed with American culture than their own. Well, they were for the longest time, anyways.
Except, Japan today is like American culture, except they are more liberal with their technology, and more conservative with their laws... odd, eh?
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Note: I have only read the first post, not afterwards, so whatever.
I personally am a big fan of these so-called "stupid cartoons", and am a part of the "I LOVE JAPAN!" group. I wanna live there, I admit, but my reasons are pretty different from many people.
Guys who aren't trying to be macho are fine over there. No one insults them, and its a half-n-half on the popularity between macho and non-macho, so I'd fit in well.
2: I want my kids to go to their schools. Their schools are some of the best in the world, so I'd do just about anything to have my kids be so lucky to do that.
3: Anime on regular TV. Now, don't get me wrong- there are some BAD anime's out there. I personally think Slayers is one of the stupidest, and worst executed, animes of all time. But then, I find stuff like Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is EXACTLY the kind of thing I love. I mean, sure- its got Giant robots[SUPPOSEDLY], but it has reasons for them. Really, thats the only thing that I could see someone auto-hating it for, and in which, they've gotta be pretty stupid to hate it just because of that. I could understand just not liking the plot, or hating the fact that a lot of the same animation is used many times(because GAINAX was on buget at the time, about to go bankrupt, and this was their last hope, hence the reason that they released it in 1996, and not 1999 like they were planning). Its all about the end times, described by the Bible, with a bit of a twist from the genre of conspiracy-thriller/drama. Its truly a masterpiece in my opinion, worthy of all the accolades its gotten.
And yes, Cowboy Bebop kicks MAJOR ****. Last episode is best...yay!
Those are my main reasons, but I have many others. If you don't like it, thats your opinion, so whatever. I like it, a lot of others like it, and a lot don't too. So whatever.
Well I think Asian women are sexah and exotic, that's why I'd live there. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Maybe the chicks find forgieners interesting too.
But for me, there would be too many people and too much polution. Canada has 30 million people, although 85% of them live within 200KM of the US border. Still, even in that 200KM, it's probably alot less crowded than alot of American cities.
How are their laws conservative exactly? Like do they have harsh prison sentences or something? US Is pretty bad for that...
Quaunaut has a good point about American culture, but schools? I always thought Japanese schools had much more of a workload than American schools, and their students were pushed much harder. And then there is that thing about how they got awesome math skillz, but their writing creativity suffers(because they are focused on math).
<!--QuoteBegin--Quaunaut+Sep 19 2003, 11:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Sep 19 2003, 11:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I personally think Slayers is one of the stupidest, and worst executed, animes of all time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You are hereby forbidden from ever loving anime ever again =D
<!--QuoteBegin--lazygamer+Sep 18 2003, 09:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lazygamer @ Sep 18 2003, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well I think Asian women are sexah and exotic, that's why I'd live there. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah ok
that's a stupidass reason if taken too far
but if not, good luck to you then
As for math skills, it's only underachievers (ie dumasses) who like to stereotype and make fun of other people. In my experience it is 100% true, and I imagine it has to be so also. A broader and perhaps more accurate definition might be insecure people in general.
If you're (a dumass, not lazygamer, unless lazygamer IS a dumass :O) a bad student or had bad teachers or were a weakling who followed the crowd and are just dumb, it's not my (our) fault, you fuker.
A long-**** ramble of thoughts (note, my standpoint is as a Japanese that's lived in the US all her life, but still immersed in Japanese culture).
Maybe it's because Japanese stuff (VERY general word <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) is so... mainstream? Not quite the word I'm looking for, but it's so mindnumbingly palatable by everyone. It's meant to draw you in it's commercial clutches and make you buy anything and everything that has to do with it; Pocket Monsters, J-pop stars, etc. My interest in it as my heritage aside, I do like Japanese animation and particularly the metal/industrial scene, but there really is no reason for me to find it exceptional from that of any other country. As for the anime and comics, I much prefer Japanese becuase it tends to be much more mature, in both content and themes. There's still children's shows like Pocket Monsters where the young heroes go out and learn a moral lesson with their cute sidekicks / one-episode stores where the superhero takes down a bad guy and all ends happily, but then there's things like stylish Cowboy Bebop and emotional Saishuuheiki Kanojo (My Girlfriend the Ultimate Weapon), etc.
Another random tangent; a lot of people I've talked to who are general fans of Japanese culture start out with anime. They watch anime, like it, and a couple of years down the line they're die-hard fans of Japan's pop music, movies, and fads. In fact, MOST of them seem to have started with anime. I guess it's just the most appealing aspect of our culture, or most easily accessible?
A lot of manga is inspired by outside influences (ie, in the Rurouni Kenshin comics there are characters modeled after Mr. McFarlane's creations, Trigun by old Western shoot-out films, etc.)... but I think that a lot of Japanese culture still remains. I grew up with miso soup for breakfast and wearing yukata on holidays, stuff like that; and my relatives in Japan are still firmly in touch with their roots, doing everything from cha-no-yu to listening to Ryuichi Kawamura (yuck).
I also find it interesting that you guys talk about how Asian women are sexy; it does seem to me that most of the guys that hit on me are Caucasian, and I find out sometimes that it's very specifically my Japanese-ness that they find attractive (both physically, and also what they hear about us personality-wise).
On another note, a lot of Japanophiles seem to not bother learning about or admitting to the more dark side of Japan, especially the war crimes of yesterdecade and the sheer racism that is prevalent in Japan today...
ramble over. Feel free to poke me about aspects of Japanese-ness you'd like to know more about. ^^
Comments
but liking somthing <i>just</i> because everyone else does...? perhaps...
FLCL is by no means the bottom of the heap, nor is a bunch of random scenes stuck together, although it looks like it the first time you watch it through. It's an anime about growing up into a world you don't understand... and this theme is emphasized by making the show incomprehensible forwards, but fully comprehensible backwards. Just like real life. How many of you understood high-school while you were in it? How many of you understand high-school a little better now that you've been through it all?
Okay, maybe I'm over reaching here. Middle-school then?
School was an artificially constructed society with no direct goals other than the vague "education" which, as most of us know, didn't work very well. But when you were mired in it, all you could see were the walls from the inside. From the outside it looks so much different.
FLCL is the same. You don't understand what's going on the first time round because the terms and rules have not yet been described to the viewer. Watch it once through fully, then watch it a second time. I guarantee that ever scene makes perfect sense. In a font color that matches the background, I have laid out the superficial plot of FLCL (highlight to read).
---------------------------------------------------
<span style='color:#041E2D'>So we've got Atomsk, god-like energy being who is known as the Pirate King because he can steal entire star systems. And we've got Haruko, who is a space alien that wants Atomsk's power. Eyebrows dude says she fell in love with him, but from her reactions in the last episode, that doesn't seem likely, she just wants his power.
Medical Machina has somehow imprisoned Atomsk, possibly using him as a renewable energy source. This might be considered laudable, except for the fact that they're using this power to flatten worlds. In order to continue with flattening this world though, they need to bring in the giant hand robot that will wield the iron. Instead of using spaceships though, they use a hyperspacial gateway system that is activated by the corpus collosum (the interaction between the left and right hemispheres of the brain). Not all brains are suitable for this purpose, but our protagonist's is, so Haruko is there with him to intervene. Not because she cares about earth, but because SHE wants Atomsk's power. She's really just using the kid.
It's slightly unclear as to how Naota is able to free Atomsk, but I suspect it has something to do with Naota's unique gateway and Medical Machina getting too cocky with using Atomsk's power. They overloaded their system or something, I don't know. Whatever happened, Naota suddenly finds himself infused with Atomsk, the Pirate King himself. He's not controlling Atomsk though, it's the other way around. It has been the other way around right from the start, even with Canti. Naota facilitates Atomsk, but doesn't command him like Haruko wants to do.
Atomsk fights with Haruko, while Naota fights with Atomsk behind the scenes. Or perhaps he fights for Atomsk. Either way, Naota somehow manages, at the right moment, to completely kick Atomsk out of his body, and out of Medical Machina's trap as well. Atomsk smashes the hand, drops the Iron, and flies away, forcing Haruko to chase him again, leaving Naota behind.</span>
---------------------------------------------------
But beyond that...
Here is what a friend of mine says about one of the more obvious underlying themes of the show (in the Freudian tradition)
----------------------------------------------------
<span style='color:#041E2D'>I think the best thing about the show is Naota's insistence that "nothing ever happens here," a common enough adolescent complaint. Even though he's got robots popping out of his head and giant hands threatening to iron everything to death, it still seems to him like nothing "special" is happening. He's reacting not only to the miasmal dullness that hangs over Mabase (the yellow fog), but to the fact that all the adults around him seem clueless and self-absorbed. He's on the cusp of adolescence, and able to see childhood and adulthood from the same vantage point. Naota reminded me a bit of Holden Caulfield, railing against the "phonies" around him and the vapidness that permeates adult life.
Sex, of course, changes everything; and is delivered to Naota via a bass guitar to the head. Like any adolescent, he has difficulty keeping things under control, but by the sixth episode he is able to reconcile his feelings and admit to Haruko that he loves her. He's taken the first step into adulthood by doing so; and clears the "phoniness" and self-absorbed **** away.
---Maverick (on another messageboard)</span>
----------------------------------------------------
I could go on. I've shown it to my mother, for example, who insists its an allegory for someone dealing with the horrors of childhood incest. I can also see areas where it talks about masculinity, and what it means to be a man and how that is to be displayed (here I'm referring to "those eyebrows"). It uses dreamlike communication to convey a powerful point. Dreams don't make much sense, but they can mean things, and the study of them is rewarding still. It uses symbols to say what it needs to say, and leaves interpretation to the viewer, which is what all good stories do. This one is just told differently...
Enough about FLCL. Then we have Gundam, which is, quite frankly, the Japanese equivalent to Star Wars, especially when it comes to merchandising and marketing. The theme here is "War Sucks" but it communicates this on many, many different levels. It is NOT, by any means, about millions of indestructible machines going against other indestructible machines. It is about politics and compassion and understanding and the difference between childishness and maturity.
While the face of the show, the technical bits and tactics and history and all the things that make up a setting are as internally consistent as any technical show in America that attracts geekhood (Star Trek/Wars comes instantly to mind, but there are others, including Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series) and studying these things can be fascinating to one wanting to learn about physics and orbits and theoretical colonization methods... it's the interaction between the people which makes Gundam really interesting.
Gundam was the first "giant robot" style anime aimed at adults instead of children. Before Gundam, all giant robots were single, self aware beings constructed by some boy's dead father and given to said boy to take care of. In Gundam, robots aren't self aware, they're tools similar to guns, used to kill other people who may or may not be good themselves. Sure, this theme isn't new today, but at the time, it was shocking (in Japan).
Gundam was a show that wasn't afraid to kill characters. In fact, one of the show's favorite things to do was to introduce a main character, detail that character enough that you get to like that person's story, get to sympathize with that character, and then they kill that character. Not in a heroic blaze of glory, but in a stupid accident... a stray shell blowing up a ship fleeing battle. Or a tactical error. Miscommunication between troops and commanders leading to friendly fire. Little things like that.
Despite artwork that is considered poor quality today (not quite as bad as speed racer...) the original Gundam series is still enjoyable today for its themes, messages, fluff, characters, and the story itself. Zeta Gundam is just as good, and with better artwork.
On the other hand, certain spinoffs such as, oh, say, "Gundam Wing" take all the fluff of Gundam (nothing wrong with fluff, as long as there's some substance beneath it... condiments are not the meal) and a bunch of superficial similarities and call it Gundam... completely missing the point of the original show.
Going into depth about these two shows wasn't just to show off my geekery, although there's nothing wrong with that, but rather to demonstrate the reason why some people enjoy anime: DEPTH. And don't think that because I like anime so much, I don't like American movies. I do... when they have the same quality and depth. Road to Perdition, for example. The 6th Sense, Unbreakable, Signs. Minority Report. I like stories with depth and emotion, and I don't care where the source is...
If I disliked anime for the sake of xenophobia, look at all the stories I'd be missing out on! Gasaraki, Brain Powered, Eva, Miyazaki's work at Studio Ghibli, Cowboy Bebob, Escaflowne... the list goes on. All VERY GOOD STORIES. And I LOVE good stories, whatever the source.
Stories and storytelling is my obsession.
Hmm controversy...
Here's a simple answer: BECAUSE THEY LIKE IT!!!!!
The Japanese media has been in the business of making TV shows, movies, comics, etc, that are prefered by a certain type of person for decades now, they make things that a certain type of person likes. Just because we in the US have only been recently exposed to it doesn't mean that those of us who enjoy that are "obsessed with the Japanese culture." We are obsessed with what is appealing to us, the Japanese culture just happens to be what is appealing.
And either way, why don't you just let people enjoy it without complaining? No one's forcing you to watch FLCL or anything. It's the same with all subcultures basically. People whine and moan about "Oh I hate ravers" or "Oh I hate furries" or "Oh I hate punks", or "Oh I hate this group and that group". Good for you! But what have any of these groups ever done to you? Nothing but exist and be different from you, so just stop ragging on other people's tastes please.
Get some history, nubs. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Check a few of these out:
Ernest Hemingway
Mark Twain
John Steinbeck
Arthur Miller
Edgar Allan Poe
Even better, here is a website with a good list of them - <a href='http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/amlitchron_index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/amlitchron_index.html</a>
Maybe you should be the one reading up on the history. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
indeed.
Alright, I'll say it, I like anime. I like Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, Trigun, HellsinG, and many more.
I'm not obsessed with japanese culture, although it DOES have a tie in with what I want to do with my life (video games). I have asian friends, many of them, and they hate anime, they'll point to a random anime DVD in a store (usually CB) and say "Damn, that looks like cowboy porn." or some crap. My anime viewing habits are basically still "in the closet" because I don't have a steady source of income yet that would allow me to buy the stuff I want (I'm close though).
I do plan on buying the anime DVDs I want, I also plan on buying the american shows I want (such as Futurama, Family Guy, and Undergrads. Right now I only have futurama seasons 1 and 2 on DVD.)
It's funny, they criticize me for what I like, and I barely criticize them about what they like (CS, DoD (DoD is damn good though.) and DDR (sometimes...))
(If that was a disconnected lump of garble then I apologize, I revised a bit.)
Ontop of that, America certainly produces enough media for other countries to laud over, considering the truely incredible amount of time America devotes to advertising and glorifying itself.
Translate my manga!
Check a few of these out:
Ernest Hemingway
Mark Twain
John Steinbeck
Arthur Miller
Edgar Allan Poe
Even better, here is a website with a good list of them - <a href='http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/amlitchron_index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/amlitchron_index.html</a>
Maybe you should be the one reading up on the history. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, besides what you've stated, we really don't have ancient history to back us. The US is not very old by any means..
My comment was a joke anyway. No wonder people keep getting bombed.
My comment was a joke anyway. No wonder people keep getting bombed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could have sworn the printing press was invented before the Catholic church even split up much less before Puritans colonized America. And I could have also sworn it was invented in Germany so why can't we name a bunch of german authors?
Translate my manga! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pwned.
As for that anti William Gibson comment, how about some backup? Like a well made anti-Gibson site for example. I have never read his books though, but I do know that he is a well known person to some.
I think most of Japan's ancient culture is lost today. Japan was a less developed nation two times. Once around 1800s and another at 1945. After those two times, Japan imported everything they can to catch up to the world and most of the ancient cultures were lost at these time. Japan's culture today is a mix of all the stuff we imported.
As for manga, the word manga alredy existed in the 1600s but the base of manga that we talk about today came up around 1950. This base was created by a comic artist named Osamu Tezuka who was influenced very much by Hollywood movies camera tequnique. So the Japanese manga you read today originally came from Hollywood.
Needless to say, our culture is creeping into theirs like theirs is creeping into ours. In fact, this has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that the internet has bound countries together. Cultures are starting to merge, and I estimate that in 50 years, most cultures will be virtually similar in many respects. Italians will speak english like americans speak english like english speak english like japanese speak english etc. The barrier which caused unique cultures to form has been broken, and this is the side effect. I know for a fact that everyone in italy 20 or younger speaks fluent english, whereas older generations only know italian still. This proves the change in the past 20 years. This change will only accelerate too.
Don't look at me like I'm crazy. It's perfectly obvious. Check the name of the thread. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Why would I need to back up an opinion? I don't like his writing and I think he is overrated. Popularity doesn't mean Anne Rice is a good writer then why should it mean William Gibson is one?
Spirited Away was amazing too..
As for William Gibson, he is extremely intelligent, and in Neuromancer he crams in all this weird crap which makes it pretty good, but the feel of it is so obviously white and so 80s it turns me off.
Now with 'Eastern' religion, you have to get away from perhaps your preconceived notion. Yes religion is religion, but you see how well it is integrated as a way of life ... I cannot speak for Japanese people but you see in China - hmm, words escape me now.
But understand that Confucius said, to paraphrase, y bother with the things of the afterlife when you do not even know about this one?
And that, in Chinese heaven, there is an emperor and his court and officials, and in Chinese hell, there is an official who presides over judgment and punishing and such. The entire Chinese governmental system is represented in the afterlife. Of course they look badass and live forever and have crazy superhero powers, but it is basically the real life extended into the afterlife.
Also know that the Chinese emperor is not an emperor at all, but the Son of Heaven. That is his title, along with betterthanking-superleader, roughly a.k.a. imperial lord.
So in daily life the great ruler of the Chinese empire is the Son of Heaven. The term for empire is still roughly equivalent with the English tho.
A side note: Chinese Son of Heaven differs from Japanese Son of Heaven ( who imported the term from Chinese, but have their own spin ). In China, it means he is the one favored by Heaven, the chosen one, whereas in Japan, it means he is literally the Son of Heaven, a divine being descended from Heaven.
And although the Chinese sky has an emperor, when referring to what would be 'God' in the English, Chinese just say Heaven. Heaven this and Heaven that, instead of a God doing this and that. 'Heaven' is also the same word for 'day'.
I've veered off topic
k thx bai
Why would I need to back up an opinion? I don't like his writing and I think he is overrated. Popularity doesn't mean Anne Rice is a good writer then why should it mean William Gibson is one?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that's fair, some people are overrated and popularity doesn't equal quality. It's just that I like reading in-depth explanations. This is your opinion though, and opinions are still good sometimes.
Except, Japan today is like American culture, except they are more liberal with their technology, and more conservative with their laws... odd, eh?
I personally am a big fan of these so-called "stupid cartoons", and am a part of the "I LOVE JAPAN!" group. I wanna live there, I admit, but my reasons are pretty different from many people.
Guys who aren't trying to be macho are fine over there. No one insults them, and its a half-n-half on the popularity between macho and non-macho, so I'd fit in well.
2: I want my kids to go to their schools. Their schools are some of the best in the world, so I'd do just about anything to have my kids be so lucky to do that.
3: Anime on regular TV. Now, don't get me wrong- there are some BAD anime's out there. I personally think Slayers is one of the stupidest, and worst executed, animes of all time. But then, I find stuff like Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is EXACTLY the kind of thing I love. I mean, sure- its got Giant robots[SUPPOSEDLY], but it has reasons for them. Really, thats the only thing that I could see someone auto-hating it for, and in which, they've gotta be pretty stupid to hate it just because of that. I could understand just not liking the plot, or hating the fact that a lot of the same animation is used many times(because GAINAX was on buget at the time, about to go bankrupt, and this was their last hope, hence the reason that they released it in 1996, and not 1999 like they were planning). Its all about the end times, described by the Bible, with a bit of a twist from the genre of conspiracy-thriller/drama. Its truly a masterpiece in my opinion, worthy of all the accolades its gotten.
And yes, Cowboy Bebop kicks MAJOR ****. Last episode is best...yay!
Those are my main reasons, but I have many others. If you don't like it, thats your opinion, so whatever. I like it, a lot of others like it, and a lot don't too. So whatever.
Maybe the chicks find forgieners interesting too.
But for me, there would be too many people and too much polution. Canada has 30 million people, although 85% of them live within 200KM of the US border. Still, even in that 200KM, it's probably alot less crowded than alot of American cities.
How are their laws conservative exactly? Like do they have harsh prison sentences or something? US Is pretty bad for that...
Quaunaut has a good point about American culture, but schools? I always thought Japanese schools had much more of a workload than American schools, and their students were pushed much harder. And then there is that thing about how they got awesome math skillz, but their writing creativity suffers(because they are focused on math).
You are hereby forbidden from ever loving anime ever again =D
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah ok
that's a stupidass reason if taken too far
but if not, good luck to you then
As for math skills, it's only underachievers (ie dumasses) who like to stereotype and make fun of other people. In my experience it is 100% true, and I imagine it has to be so also. A broader and perhaps more accurate definition might be insecure people in general.
If you're (a dumass, not lazygamer, unless lazygamer IS a dumass :O) a bad student or had bad teachers or were a weakling who followed the crowd and are just dumb, it's not my (our) fault, you fuker.
Maybe it's because Japanese stuff (VERY general word <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) is so... mainstream? Not quite the word I'm looking for, but it's so mindnumbingly palatable by everyone. It's meant to draw you in it's commercial clutches and make you buy anything and everything that has to do with it; Pocket Monsters, J-pop stars, etc. My interest in it as my heritage aside, I do like Japanese animation and particularly the metal/industrial scene, but there really is no reason for me to find it exceptional from that of any other country. As for the anime and comics, I much prefer Japanese becuase it tends to be much more mature, in both content and themes. There's still children's shows like Pocket Monsters where the young heroes go out and learn a moral lesson with their cute sidekicks / one-episode stores where the superhero takes down a bad guy and all ends happily, but then there's things like stylish Cowboy Bebop and emotional Saishuuheiki Kanojo (My Girlfriend the Ultimate Weapon), etc.
Another random tangent; a lot of people I've talked to who are general fans of Japanese culture start out with anime. They watch anime, like it, and a couple of years down the line they're die-hard fans of Japan's pop music, movies, and fads. In fact, MOST of them seem to have started with anime. I guess it's just the most appealing aspect of our culture, or most easily accessible?
A lot of manga is inspired by outside influences (ie, in the Rurouni Kenshin comics there are characters modeled after Mr. McFarlane's creations, Trigun by old Western shoot-out films, etc.)... but I think that a lot of Japanese culture still remains. I grew up with miso soup for breakfast and wearing yukata on holidays, stuff like that; and my relatives in Japan are still firmly in touch with their roots, doing everything from cha-no-yu to listening to Ryuichi Kawamura (yuck).
I also find it interesting that you guys talk about how Asian women are sexy; it does seem to me that most of the guys that hit on me are Caucasian, and I find out sometimes that it's very specifically my Japanese-ness that they find attractive (both physically, and also what they hear about us personality-wise).
On another note, a lot of Japanophiles seem to not bother learning about or admitting to the more dark side of Japan, especially the war crimes of yesterdecade and the sheer racism that is prevalent in Japan today...
ramble over. Feel free to poke me about aspects of Japanese-ness you'd like to know more about. ^^