Political Correctness
Hypergrip
SuspectGermany Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9689Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
SuspectGermany Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9689Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">when is it too much? (esp. media)</div> It's 3:50 am and I'm zapping between the TV stations.. and what do I find? Another of those new casting-show bands... A white guy, a white girl, a black guy, a asian girl and a white guy that outed himself a ****.
"Nice", I think to myself, "why take the few idiots that could actually sing if you can build another political correct multi-culti-band?".
I zapp on and find a political show where the speaker of a local jewish community complains about the "nazi-like behavior" of city planners who decided to build a large mall on the other end of the town instead of the part where mostly jews live.. although traffic situation would have been better in that part.
"Nice," I think to myself, "no matter what the problem is, those guys always try to make it look like people act some way because of their religion"
"But wait ... if i think that way, doesn't that make me anti-jewish now?"
Having a look at today's media, there are soo many examples of false or overdone political correctness, imho.
Speaking bad of someone that is a jew? You may end up being called a Nazi (especially when your German like me)
Speaking bad of someone who died in WTC? Welcome to the axis of evil.
Making a comment like "omg, wearing a pink leather jacket looks ****"? Prepare for a bad look and "Do you have anything against homosexual people"?
You get the point...
I know there are lots of things one should not make jokes about.
I know there are lots of things one should not say because they are respectless and hurt other people.
BUT I also think there are lots of things one should be able to say without being put onto one level resists and stuff like that.
Here is a true story from my last year at school (about 3 years ago):
The administration makes a desicion about something related to taxes...
Next day I see in the newpaper that the head of the "Central Council of Jews in Germany" was complaining about that desicion.
I was like "why the hell are you guys comlaining THIS time? It has NOTHING to do with religion AT ALL. Every second day one of you is quoted in the newspaper. What do you comlain about nextg? That there are too few jews in the German national Soccer team?"
Having said that, I hear a "Would you please come with me? There are a few things we should talk about".
It was a teacher taking me to our headmasterwhere I had to defend myself!
Uhm, no the story is not finished... a few weeks later in history class.
Subject (once again) was Third Reich, WW2 and Holocaust.
The teacher was talking about the things that happened to the jews and said those things we all should always keep in mind and feel sorry because we caused so much suffering.
It must have been the 151259615th time we were told something like that from him and, having had some stress anyway, I was fed up, stood up and told my teacher "I agree that the things that happened are bad, but how should I feel sorry for things that people our ancistors have done?I wasn't there, I wasn't my choice.. Why are you trying to make us feel guity for that?!".
I was send to the headmaster for that who called my parents.
Thank god my parents are thinking the same way than I about this, so the headmaster got quite some ungly things to hear from my mom <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, enough of examples and personal crap... back to a simple question:
Political Correctness - Is there situations where it's just way too much?
Your oppinios please.
"Nice", I think to myself, "why take the few idiots that could actually sing if you can build another political correct multi-culti-band?".
I zapp on and find a political show where the speaker of a local jewish community complains about the "nazi-like behavior" of city planners who decided to build a large mall on the other end of the town instead of the part where mostly jews live.. although traffic situation would have been better in that part.
"Nice," I think to myself, "no matter what the problem is, those guys always try to make it look like people act some way because of their religion"
"But wait ... if i think that way, doesn't that make me anti-jewish now?"
Having a look at today's media, there are soo many examples of false or overdone political correctness, imho.
Speaking bad of someone that is a jew? You may end up being called a Nazi (especially when your German like me)
Speaking bad of someone who died in WTC? Welcome to the axis of evil.
Making a comment like "omg, wearing a pink leather jacket looks ****"? Prepare for a bad look and "Do you have anything against homosexual people"?
You get the point...
I know there are lots of things one should not make jokes about.
I know there are lots of things one should not say because they are respectless and hurt other people.
BUT I also think there are lots of things one should be able to say without being put onto one level resists and stuff like that.
Here is a true story from my last year at school (about 3 years ago):
The administration makes a desicion about something related to taxes...
Next day I see in the newpaper that the head of the "Central Council of Jews in Germany" was complaining about that desicion.
I was like "why the hell are you guys comlaining THIS time? It has NOTHING to do with religion AT ALL. Every second day one of you is quoted in the newspaper. What do you comlain about nextg? That there are too few jews in the German national Soccer team?"
Having said that, I hear a "Would you please come with me? There are a few things we should talk about".
It was a teacher taking me to our headmasterwhere I had to defend myself!
Uhm, no the story is not finished... a few weeks later in history class.
Subject (once again) was Third Reich, WW2 and Holocaust.
The teacher was talking about the things that happened to the jews and said those things we all should always keep in mind and feel sorry because we caused so much suffering.
It must have been the 151259615th time we were told something like that from him and, having had some stress anyway, I was fed up, stood up and told my teacher "I agree that the things that happened are bad, but how should I feel sorry for things that people our ancistors have done?I wasn't there, I wasn't my choice.. Why are you trying to make us feel guity for that?!".
I was send to the headmaster for that who called my parents.
Thank god my parents are thinking the same way than I about this, so the headmaster got quite some ungly things to hear from my mom <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, enough of examples and personal crap... back to a simple question:
Political Correctness - Is there situations where it's just way too much?
Your oppinios please.
Comments
Because we **** on the seats?
*the not so nice word for "pee".
I think its pretty much a byproduct of the feminist movement and the American sueing culture. You want to be really careful what you say, because if I dont like it, I just might sue you.
It's pure BS.
Also, I wouldn't blame it on purely American culture... how about the Socialist movements in Europe and their push for 'the people'?
For instance, if i (i'm white) insult my friend (who is indian) about the colour of his skin, as we often do to each other (joking around and such), and... i dunno, a policeman or a teacher hears me, i can be expelled from the school, and, if his family decided to press charges, i could be fined (and if i was old enough, imprisoned). If anyone overheard him, however, nothing would happen. Because they're scared they'd be accused of racism, which is total bs.
In the UK, there is no legal term for "Racism" against a white person, it's "merely" Prejudism, which is less than half the severity in punishment of racism. If i got called "A stupid white ****", all that person would get is a warning. If, however, i said "You stupid black ****" to someone, i WOULD be arrested. Which isn't fair.
In a country that strives to be as politically correct as the UK, the minorities have the power. Which is what annoys most of the majorities, which is what causes racism in the first place.
Plus, think about this: If you think being called Black is an insult, then you obviously think that being black is inferior, which it isn't. So if you take "Black" to be offensive, you are racist yourself.
I'm not racist by the way. Just thought i'd make that clear. Anyway, Political Correctness is fine as long as it's done right, which is NEVER.
What would happen if a black person called a Jewish person a "k1ke"?
Or if a g4y Jew called a black woman a "n3gro b1tch"?
(reminds me of the "What happens when an unstoppable cannonball hits an indestructible wall?" paradox)
I guess only whites can be racists, only straight men can be sexists and only Christians can be guilty of religious intolerance.
edit: changed "Jew" to "g4y Jew" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I try to not let myself be too consumed by political correctness. In fact I think alot of political correctness is stupid. The last thing I fear is being part of the axis of evil, as I'd view my accusers as part of the axis of brainwashed morons. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Man, I always thought you guys had freedom of speech. In my home town of Cincinnati, the KKK puts up a cross on fountain square every year, people protest and throw a fit about it, but the KKK is allowed to do that and is protected by law with the same free speech rights as everyone else. I can't believe that someone can be jailed in the UK for being a racist.
You can say what you like so long as it doesnt infringe on the rights of others. And as the rights of others are clearly defined, it is illegal to spout racist trash, as that will infringe upon someone elses rights.
You infringe their rights, you go to prision.
The problem is that, instead of trying to fight this 'grass root racism' with grass root methods, the movement succumbed to the seemingly more effective way of authoritarian change. Thus, the ploitical correctness commitees in many universities. Thus what Walser described as the 'morallic club' of the Shoah (Walser proceeded to write horribly bad books with anti-semitic leanings, but that's another matter). Thus the political correctness PR advisors in music and TV.
The means, not the aims are faulty.
What right does it infringe on?
But is it legal to insult people in general?
The German constitution pretects the dignity of every person.
So racism is against German law.
However insulting somebody always is a thing that can be seen from different perspectives.
One person might call it "critism", another might call it "insult" and another person may call it "racism".
It's a very complicated thing for judges and lawyers, I think.
If you would call somebody an "a**hole" and you want to sue him for that, you COULD do that... but I think almost every lawyer would tell you not to waste his time.
However if you are part of a mayority you have a much better chance to get this to court.
btw: I did not start this topic, because I think political correctness is a bad thing.
I just think that we (at least our country) has come to a state where people are quite polarized about this.
"Officials" and Celebrities have become less critic about a lot of things, because a critic on that matter could be considered political incorrect.
Comedians that go into that direction are either loved for that or hated.
(and it's quite amazing to see that everybody laughs, but nobody would say such a thing himself... "because that was only comedy").
And this affect Mr.Everybody, too...
For example it has been prooven by scientists and statistics that classes (Elementary School in this exampl) do much worse learning if there are a lot of children from foreign countries in it.
But people who say "We want less turks in our childrens classes/schools" can be looked upon as racists.
There has even been the case of a headmaster who was sued after such a statement.
He was not found guilty btw... he was lucky.
I just want to point out that there are situations in wich a lot of people think "I may not say that, that's not political correct" (or "I might be look upon as racist / I might get sued for that").
The only comparable thing in the US are slander/libel laws. In order to be convicted of that it has to be proven that your comments were false, that you knew them to be false, and that they caused substantial financial or personal damage to the subject.
But people who say "We want less turks in our childrens classes/schools" can be looked upon as racists.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The example you bring up is highly difficult, because those scientific studies can be taken apart by anyone having the patience to do so. All they really prove is that schools situated in areas with low social standards (where a majority of the Turkish population lives in thanks to the horrible mistakes made during the integration process) have a lower general educative value due to various reasons, the language barrier (yet another mistake made during integration) being one, but not the only one of them.
The 'no foreigners in our classes' slogan is the modernized version of the 'no farmer children in our higher classes' slogan from thirty years ago, and like back then, it tackles the result instead of the root of the sovial problem and thus harms the wrong people.
But I'm starting to ramble...
If you're going to focus this discussion on Germany / Europe, I'd say that we currently see the long-term effects of a harsh politically correct environment during the late 70s, the 80s, and the early - mid 90s. You cite comedians (such as Ingo Appelt) who base their success on the concious breaking of the taboos. This is in my opinion the by far most timid example. I'd say that we also see political implications.
Take for example the populist parties (Haider in Austria, Fortuyn in the Netherlands, or Möllemann in Germany). These politicans used methodical taboo breaking to create propaganda - just think of Möllemanns anti-Israel leaflets just before the election in '02 (which backfired, thank god). In this respect, I'd agree with those stating that political correctness can lead to racism, or at least a bigger public acceptance for racism.
The question that remains is how to treat (= remove) political correctness in its current form without of allowing such bad effects to occur.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's crazy. Do you guys consider that to be freedom of speech?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Keep the historic background of this country in mind. The Weimar Republic (1918 - 1933) used the American extreme liberal definition of the right, which allowed extremist factions to go as far as to publish calls for political murder (which were carried out, the murder of German foreign minister Rathenau being the most prominent example). After these and the experiences with the Third Reich, the concept of the 'defensive democracy' gained popularity.
Let me make it clear that the cases under which you can be convicted for racism (the legal term is 'Volksverhetzung') are very closely defined and significantly differentiated from mere insults. You'll be able to make jokes about Jews (provided you find people laughing about them), but once you start aiming your insults at a specific person and this persons beliefs, and go above a certain level that truly starts endangering this persons dignity, you can be convicted. A practical example are Neonazis spraying swastikas and anti-judaistic slogans on tombstones in Jewish graveyards. They clearly passed the line between stupid and criminal.
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That's illegal in the US because its vandalism. What else does it apply to?
Good night, by the way.
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I believe in the US it is illegal to "incite a riot" but I'm not sure on the specifics of the law. It probably varies by state. In Germany is it only illegal if the act actually gets carried out, or is just advocating the action illegal?
(btw, I think the word you are looking for is provoke)
Ever hear about the universities which started accepting minorities BEFORE they started accepting majorities? I think it was a result of a 'african-canadian' sueing a university for being racist in it's decision to NOT accept him, and accept another person with teh same marks. Anyways, I think they they called it a 'proactive motion' (or something equally BS) because they were going to be 'proactive' and PURPOSELY accept minorities first... so that minorities would be over-represented in universities and majorities would be under-represented.
However, we are Australians here, not sue-happy. So we reply, include appropriate hand gestures to emphasise our point, include a good flogging if its called for, and get on it with.
And Kobayashi, I've heard of that too. In South African universities, a certain number of students must be black, and a certain number must be white. And then a certain percentage of the black students MUST pass. Thus the pass or fail grade is determined in line with that percentage. And now any uni degree from SA is not recognised elsewhere in the world.