<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep 19 2003, 05:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Sep 19 2003, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Wave-spawning will mean more players are fighting together, and the addition of a few new rules (marines win if alien hive is killed, aliens win if time limit is reached) mean come-back victories are more possible then ever. Player skill, group tactics and skill choices should be at least as meaningful as they are in NS, and possibly moreso. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, in light of these clear-ups (much needed, thanks flay), I have a couple of comments/points to make. Don't take them as putting the game down as such, just highlighting some stuff...though you've probably heard/thought of this all already.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true "super-skulks" (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between not being able to wait to play this (as I too am interested in how well it'll work) and having it last longer than being a bit of a gimmick (re: Para in DoD). The trouble that is immediately obvious is that while some of us will aide the team (as an alien with SoF I always relay to the team where marines are moving to, just incase they don't know)...most will just take the upgrades and run. After a few waves of reinforcements the winners would most likely be decided because (as in CS), those that win the first three "rounds" are the ones that dominate most of the game as they have the more powerful abilities. There are enough players in NS right now that sit around shouting "put up a DC" rather than doing it themselves...so in this respetc you'll only see a minority of people choosing to go and upgrade to "medic" rather than shout for a medic.
I of course, hope that you've already thought of this and are putting in measures that will retain the old NS style of "if two teams are equal, you won't really know who's going to win until at least half way through", not "whoever kills the other teams players first will be advantaged for the rest of the game" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- The extra popularity of this game mode may very well bring new options to the NS team, including funding, and financial freedom to move to a new engine, and more popularity with tournament sponsors.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the main thing you should really go for. I know you're trying to make a game as well...but I think people would be a lot more supportive if they realised the above. I know I certainly, as soon as I read it, changed my opinion a little. As long as NS:C is not too intrusive...thats to say that there are only a few maps made for it (I'm assuming new maps are being made...seems a bit strange to use current maps with only one hive ever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), or servers choose wether or not to run NS:C or normal NS...then I'm sure that even while disliking it to normal NS (if that happens), I would still play it as a light-hearted break.
If the above oppertunities will rise from the making of NS:C (should it become popular) then I think a lot more people here would be more supportive rather than dismissive.
Aliens infiltraded the selfdefending system of the ship. The marines need to repair all parts of it to activate and kill the aliens. So you first need to get that generator working. .... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The one thing I'll give NS:C is that it isn't exactly like CS, and isn't exactly like DoD...it's like an RPG/FPS instead of RTS/FPS. Making things more like DoD, or CS, by putting in DoD style objectives...using the over-used "flag" system of gaming...or letting people interchange their abilities after they've chose them...these things make the game TOO much like other games. Even if you (like I) am not really getting our hopes up for NS:C, we have to at least put thanks in the fact it isn't going to be an exact clone (it seems) of the other FPS's around.
of course, stupid me, the killing all enemies at once totally slipped my mind after all these pages <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I'll go edit that part out of my post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cal; that's fine! I was really worriied when I made that second post you would take it as a flame, which it wasn't intended as, so I'm just happy you didn't take it that way.
And thanks for the compliment Flayra, that means a lot to me! I think your post will clear up a lot of questions... the idea of players being able to use level-ups to heal, getting expierience for class-specific actions etc sounds intriguing, and I think that information will probably remove a few fears some people have had.
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 19 2003, 11:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 19 2003, 11:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Firstly...the above. This means that aliens are essentially on the defensive for the whole of the time limit? I see possibly problems with this, when it comes to end games...what if the aliens are simply much better than marines? Does this mean aliens have to wait around, probably just building up lots of OC nests outside the marine start point, and waiting until the game is over?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the front page newz, it said that the team with the most "levels" or the team that killed everyone in a single wave before the next one started. Of course, that was well before Flayra's previous clairifying post (ty btw <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ). It <i>might</i> have changed since then (the prior of more levels, for example, has probably been taken out in light of the new alien-win time), but I believe that if the aliens were successful at killing an entire team of marines before the timeout that the they would win - much like I feel that if the marine team kills all of the alien players before the elapsed time, that they would still win despite them not killing the hive.
All speculation to me. They might have taken those out entirely. If that's the case, I bet it wouldn't really matter... He makes these sound like they'll be 3-5 minute games. And, quite honestly, if you Power Level yourself and your team to utterly dominate the marine team in less than 3 minutes, then you deserve to gloat the rest of the 2 IMHO. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's a difference between not being able to wait to play this (as I too am interested in how well it'll work) and having it last longer than being a bit of a gimmick (re: Para in DoD). The trouble that is immediately obvious is that while some of us will aide the team (as an alien with SoF I always relay to the team where marines are moving to, just incase they don't know)...most will just take the upgrades and run. After a few waves of reinforcements the winners would most likely be decided because (as in CS), those that win the first three "rounds" are the ones that dominate most of the game as they have the more powerful abilities. There are enough players in NS right now that sit around shouting "put up a DC" rather than doing it themselves...so in this respetc you'll only see a minority of people choosing to go and upgrade to "medic" rather than shout for a medic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope this doesn't happen. I know I've personally taken the proverbial rez bullet for my team and put down the hive or put up 3 upgrade chambers while hoping to save for an advanced lifeform. Sometimes I play the perma-gorge and keep everything and everyone looking nice and spiffy and entrench every map point I know is valuable.
But... you see both a fewer amount of "medic" type players or "super comebacks" in other games similar to this. In most RTSs I've played, if you dominate the first few battles you'll end up winning the game most of the time, nigh <i>all</i> of the time. I also see a shorter amount of medics in most Team games that allow one, since it usually requires some form of quick communication so the medic can know what to do and who needs what.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that as much as we hate those, they might just be things that can never be entirely taken out of any game because it's either human nature or just basic gameplay mechanics. I guess the real goal is to have them as non-existant as possible...
Or not try at all. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>**edit: CRIPES I type slow and have a habit of looking at outdated posts! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> That's what his original post said anyway, and before the others pointed out the same thing I said.</i>
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep 19 2003, 11:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Sep 19 2003, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true "super-skulks" (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, if the leveling system is rich enough, this might turn out to be an interesting change of pace.
One concern tho. Why would an alien want to leave the hive area? 1) it heals them, so staying by the hive would be preferable to not being by the hive since you'll probably live longer, and 2) marines have to get there and take out the hive to win, so the best place for you to stay so that you can react to marine assault on the hive would be near it. if marines can't get to the hive or can't kill it, Aliens win, so in essence, you'd probably be best of base-camping as an alien.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep 19 2003, 05:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Sep 19 2003, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true <b><u>"super-skulks"</b></u> (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^^ Weeeeeeeeeee!!! *now fully supporting NS:C* PS: ARRRRRRRRR!
The more I read (and thats a lot of stuff to read) the more I feel I might enjoy this fast paced action side of NS. I am very happy that flayra is making something like this. Some people don't like normal NS they need a more CS feel to the game and I think that by adding NS:combat, flayra will be bringing in alot of new players!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One concern tho. Why would an alien want to leave the hive area? 1) it heals them, so staying by the hive would be preferable to not being by the hive since you'll probably live longer, and 2) marines have to get there and take out the hive to win, so the best place for you to stay so that you can react to marine assault on the hive would be near it. if marines can't get to the hive or can't kill it, Aliens win, so in essence, you'd probably be best of base-camping as an alien. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sure this would alrdy be known and taken care of or wouldve been found in first hour of pt'ing.
Also u dont know if the hive will heal u yet, even if it does it prolly wouldnt give u very much very fast.
And as the rules etc will be changed why cant hive hp be lowered so that if rines get up to it, it wont take much to kill it. This would be incentive enuff to try to keep the rines as far away from the hive as the aliens can.
Also im pretty sure the maps will be made so that when rines get to the hive it will be more rine friendly therefore forcing the aliens to come out from it and do sumthing.
-RD
Thx for the update Flayra I kinda figured u'd let this topic go to the scrap heap, and leave us with the inevitable wait and see, u have a tendency to do. Thanx for the change.
I dont think aliens can just sit bakc and let marines pick em off and level up. If they did then marines would just walk in with heavies and gl/hmg and waste everything. I would think ambushes along the way weakening marine numbers and gaining upgrade points for yourself would be more important that trying to take down all those heavies with skulks only.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep 19 2003, 04:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Sep 19 2003, 04:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After spending one day on it, it's playable, and well over 50% done. MvM or AvA on the other hand, represents many weeks of work. We will likely start playtesting it this weekend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dam. I've only finished one corridor on my Combat map, and the gamemode is nearly complete <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--K'Ragg+Sep 19 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (K'Ragg @ Sep 19 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Sep 19 2003, 11:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Sep 19 2003, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true "super-skulks" (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, if the leveling system is rich enough, this might turn out to be an interesting change of pace.
One concern tho. Why would an alien want to leave the hive area? 1) it heals them, so staying by the hive would be preferable to not being by the hive since you'll probably live longer, and 2) marines have to get there and take out the hive to win, so the best place for you to stay so that you can react to marine assault on the hive would be near it. if marines can't get to the hive or can't kill it, Aliens win, so in essence, you'd probably be best of base-camping as an alien. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In order to keep aliens from spawn camping, all they have to do is make the alien hive easy for marines to own in. So it will be important to kill the marine's <b>before</b> they can get there.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jojoshua+Sep 19 2003, 02:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jojoshua @ Sep 19 2003, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is where lerk bite would be nice.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno, but I must say that mass lerks are extreamlly powerful marine killers. Keep in mind that these won't be normal lerks you will be fighting in NS:C, but the lerks will be at least lv. 3 aliens so they will have a lot more HP.
To all you people that <i>hate</i> CS, I think this is mostly because you havnt found a good server to play on. If you join a community of online players that are respectful to one another, you'll find the game quite enjoyable. I've randomed on the servers before, and all people do is "smack talk" and cuss eachother out. Ya, fun. I bet if NS had the same community (If you can call CS a community...), you'd hate NS too. Give CS a chance.
But, on topic..
New mode sounds fun, I say implant it. If it is awkward, then people wont play it, simple as that. At least it will still be an option of play. No reason to not implant it.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--Jojoshua+Sep 19 2003, 02:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jojoshua @ Sep 19 2003, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is where lerk bite would be nice.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i would have to agree, YES ME! of all people ^_^
I'll be interested to see what happens with bilebomb. Do u reckon u'd be able to purchase scans??
I definetly cant wait to try being a medic though, gorge or rine i dont mind. Pity lerklift wouldnt be implemented it would be cool for this mode help the gorge keep up. I hope this isnt NS blasphemy mentioning plugins like this in Flays thread.
I've always thought that NS should've started out like what NS Combat sounds like it will be. That is, focused on providing a fun, exciting FPS experience. THEN adding the strategy element to it. As it is, the NS Marine experience is the most boring, least fun experience you can find in the entire FPS universe of games. Had it started out more simply, I think it would've been alot easier to slowly build another strategy-heavy version of the game on top of that. Meanwhile, it would've been fun for Marine players the entire time.
I hope NS Combat follows DOD's system. I find CS's gameplay to be mathematically flawed, in that the majority of players are spending the majority of rounds in dead limbo mode. When combat does occur, it's usually in repetitive locations in very small scale maps. DOD on the other hand, can feature massive maps thanks to advanced spawn points that adjust to changing battle lines. Plus the flag capture-and-hold system means there will be reasons to defend things, and thus reasons to flank stuff. 'Course, NS might not care about flanking and such since the combat is more arcade-ish
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true "super-skulks" (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very interesting. To me, it sounds very much like playing Original NS, only without the visible overhead of hives or the Commander. Upgrade buildings and chambers are virtual and individual instead. This is going to take an insane amount of balancing before people are comfortable with the strengths and weaknesses of each side's abilities. I will say this--the Marines are going to have a difficult time, and a round in which nobody is willing to be a team player and spend their levels assisting his teammates will be a bad round for them. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Teamwork, in a sense, will be a necessity. How is this so different from basic NS afterall?
There are some caveats, I think, however. I worry about a single very good player making a few good kills of stock marines and acquiring upgrades early on, and becoming even better. In a short time, this player acquires enough upgrades that he's unstoppable, and annihilates the whole enemy team with, say, a carapace-regeneration-celerity skulk of doom. With stomp as an ability. (j\k example.) Are there any measures whereby a heavily oppressed team can rally to take out a super-powerful opponent, and, in that situation, will the opponent simply respawn with the same abilities? Enlighten us! I'm intrigued with this mode now.
<3 the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
To be honest, I haven't played NS much lately. I pretty much only play when I see a lot of regulars on a server because the pub factor just gets on your nerves after so many months. NS's biggest weakness is, and always has been, its players. There's not much that really can be done about that in this sort of game, unfortunately.
NS: Combat sounds like a fantastic idea to me. I've always found typical pubber teams to be more bearable in games like CS than in NS because you aren't so dependent on them; of course you'll win more games the better your team is, but you can still have a good time just playing the game even if your team is substandard. I think Combat will breathe fresh life into the game for a lot of people, myself included, and hopefully will prove as a good game type to fall back on when the RTS game becomes too frustrating.
As for its effect on the standard game-type population, I'm not too worried. I have a couple thoughts on the issue:
1.) Some say that it will bring more rambos to the standard games. I think it's the opposite. People who are not interested in the RTS playstyle will instead go play Combat, and people who only play NS for the Combat probably won't be interested in the standard type. Hopefully this will mean that the standard community will be more "pure", i.e. less players who are only there to rambo.
2.) It could sigificantly increase NS' potential fanbase. Not only will new players be attracted to the more deathmatch-ish mode, but players who have quit NS may come back to try it and players who were getting tired of NS might keep playing Combat. I think the prospect of a gametype that isn't nearly as teamwork-dependent will attract a lot of people, new to NS or not.
3.) It's obvious that a smaller percentage of the servers and players will go standard, since previously it was 100%... But it isn't like it's just going to die out. NS has thousands of players at a time just with the standard game type, and people that were enjoying it before still will after Combat is implemented. If some players would prefer Combat over Standard, I don't see why it shouldn't be made available to them. There will always be enough standard players for a good game, and I'm sure most of the more popular servers will still play it. Some players will hate Combat and never play it, some players will only play Combat(many of whom didn't play NS before), and some will play Combat just as an occasional break from standard NS. The two game types aren't mutually exclusive, you know. I don't see why it upsets people so much that players who don't enjoy NS' standard play that much will leave for Combat. The people who will never play standard NS again once Combat comes out are the people who probably would have quit the community had Combat not come out.
Bad idea Flayra. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
If I wanted to play CS or DoD with a bunch of kiddies who care about scores and kills and yell out "how much HP" after you kill them, then I <i>would</i> play CS and/or DoD. NS rocks and make it better before you change it to model it after a trendy FPS.
If I wanted to play CS or DoD with a bunch of kiddies who care about scores and kills and yell out "how much HP" after you kill them, then I <i>would</i> play CS and/or DoD. NS rocks and make it better before you change it to model it after a trendy FPS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What are you talking about? He's not "changing" anything, it's a new game type. If you like NS as it is and really despise change that much, keep playing the standard mode.
HellbillyA whole title out of pity...Join Date: 2002-11-02Member: 3931Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
This sounds very interesting to me.
I can´t wait to test it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The downfall of NS wasn't the players... it was that new players weren't properly tutored and cultivated into teamplayers.
I'll repost my observations...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flayra <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS: C is to allow NS to grow properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to make a couple observations about this statement.
We realize the learning curve for NS isgreater then your mainstream FPS.
1) A game like NS should have a Training Map. I recall hearing that something was in progress but nothing ever came of it, revive the project. A new player needs to be briefed on the basics of marine and alien which you can't count on pub players to do. NS is not simple but is far from complex, couldn't all the necessary information be conveyed in a simple training map? If it can, it was needed 2 versions ago.
2) Whatever happened to the NS Guides? They were once a great welcoming committee for NS and IMO a necessity. NS is unique as it really requires teamwork. This will be new to many players and an ambassator can make the transition a little friendlier. They did a great job and their services are still badly needed. [EDiT]Wanted to add something- NS Guides should hang out on servers that frequently have good teamplay and these servers should be suggested to a newbie (maybe at the end of the training map?)[/EDiT]
3) We are not a newbie-friendly community. I've seen a couple threads on the topic in the past, and we always seem to kid ourselves into thinking we are helpful but we are not. As a player who gets in 2-3 hours of NS a night, I see a lot of regulars, gold skulk icons, medal icons, admin icons, and I can say the majority of the time newbies are berated and often ignored. We don't always make it easy to be new.
I believe these are some of the things that needs to be addressed if the "proper" growth of NS is your concern. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tough learning curve of NS has been known to us since the very beginning yet nothing has really been done to ease beginners into the game. We want NS to grow properly but do nothing to facilitate it. We whine that players don't cooperate, yet we do nothing to cultivate cooperation.
If Flayra expected gamers to embrace teamplay just because he created a great teamplay mod that was a gross miscalculation. If we thought gamers will just "come-around" to teamplay because it makes sense, that was naive.
I can't judge how popular or fun NS:C will be but maybe the developers and this community just isn't capable of supporting a true teamplay mod, perhaps NS:C is as much depth and teamplay as we can handle.
[EDiT]I don't mean to be harsh, but I have no interest in sucking up to Flayra or being "known-and-liked" in the community. My loyality is to the <b>unique, true teamplay experience</b> that can be NS and it pains me to see that we have not done everything we could to make it what we <b>know</b> it can be.[/EDiT]
<!--QuoteBegin--Fantasmo+Sep 19 2003, 07:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Sep 19 2003, 07:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [EDiT]I don't mean to be harsh, but I have no interest in sucking up to Flayra or being "known-and-liked" in the community. My loyality is to the <b>unique, true teamplay experience</b> that can be NS and it pains me to see that we have not done everything we could to make it what we <b>know</b> it can be.[/EDiT] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...the hell?
I just meant I hope I have not been harsh in my assessment of fundamental things that has not been addressed that <i>needs</i> to be addressed for NS to grow properly.
But if what I said is harsh, it is because I don't care if I step on Flayra's toes or disagree with the general concensus of the communuity. My loyalty is to the idea behind NS, which is teamplay, and I want to see NS teamplay take off.
I don't think NS and the community has done everything in its' power to promote and cultivate teamplay... which is a pity because I thought that was what brought us here to begin with.
I don't think NS:C will lack opportunity for teamplay or function in a way that teamplay isn't advantageous. However, I do think it will allow certain players more freedom to have fun without their teammates on their back because they "rambo"ed.
I'm very excited about this, actually. I'd love to see NS in another game style, and this would be the perfect opportunity to get my friend playing NS again after many unfortunate run-ins with uncompromising and rude NS players.
First of all, I don't think the fact that the NS community isn't always newbie-friendly is an excuse not to provide a game mode like Combat. Of course pubs might be more fun if the community was more active in helping newbies early on, but it's just naive to think that there wouldn't be any rambos or jerks or people who just don't feel like cooperating if that were the case.
Anyway, I don't think the reason for the current state of NS pub games is relevant right now. Even if every pub player was capable of clan-level coordination with people they don't know, I would still think Combat is a good idea. It just provides players with more options to enjoy the game, and will bring in many new players to boot. Not everyone is attracted to the idea of such a strictly team-based game, and I think the attitude towards more action-oriented games in this community is rather unhealthy as we are seeing now... There's no reason to look down on people who would rather play a more Counterstrike/WC3 mod type of game than an FPS/RTS. I think some people take so much pride in being part of what they perceive to be a more "intelligent" game community that they refuse to accept the possibility of attracting "CS players" to the game as well, even if it's in a completely separate game mode.
I just don't understand why it offends people to have an action-oriented game mode in the same game as their FPS/RTS. What could possibly be wrong with making NS appeal to a broader audience than the relatively exclusive one that it does now? Think of it as a completely different game if that makes you happy, but don't try to deny other people something that they would enjoy just to maintain your feeling of superiority.
Comments
OK, in light of these clear-ups (much needed, thanks flay), I have a couple of comments/points to make. Don't take them as putting the game down as such, just highlighting some stuff...though you've probably heard/thought of this all already.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true "super-skulks" (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between not being able to wait to play this (as I too am interested in how well it'll work) and having it last longer than being a bit of a gimmick (re: Para in DoD). The trouble that is immediately obvious is that while some of us will aide the team (as an alien with SoF I always relay to the team where marines are moving to, just incase they don't know)...most will just take the upgrades and run. After a few waves of reinforcements the winners would most likely be decided because (as in CS), those that win the first three "rounds" are the ones that dominate most of the game as they have the more powerful abilities. There are enough players in NS right now that sit around shouting "put up a DC" rather than doing it themselves...so in this respetc you'll only see a minority of people choosing to go and upgrade to "medic" rather than shout for a medic.
I of course, hope that you've already thought of this and are putting in measures that will retain the old NS style of "if two teams are equal, you won't really know who's going to win until at least half way through", not "whoever kills the other teams players first will be advantaged for the rest of the game" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- The extra popularity of this game mode may very well bring new options to the NS team, including funding, and financial freedom to move to a new engine, and more popularity with tournament sponsors.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the main thing you should really go for. I know you're trying to make a game as well...but I think people would be a lot more supportive if they realised the above. I know I certainly, as soon as I read it, changed my opinion a little. As long as NS:C is not too intrusive...thats to say that there are only a few maps made for it (I'm assuming new maps are being made...seems a bit strange to use current maps with only one hive ever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), or servers choose wether or not to run NS:C or normal NS...then I'm sure that even while disliking it to normal NS (if that happens), I would still play it as a light-hearted break.
If the above oppertunities will rise from the making of NS:C (should it become popular) then I think a lot more people here would be more supportive rather than dismissive.
-Lee
I could think of things like:
Aliens infiltraded the selfdefending system of the ship. The marines need to repair all parts of it to activate and kill the aliens. So you first need to get that generator working. .... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The one thing I'll give NS:C is that it isn't exactly like CS, and isn't exactly like DoD...it's like an RPG/FPS instead of RTS/FPS. Making things more like DoD, or CS, by putting in DoD style objectives...using the over-used "flag" system of gaming...or letting people interchange their abilities after they've chose them...these things make the game TOO much like other games. Even if you (like I) am not really getting our hopes up for NS:C, we have to at least put thanks in the fact it isn't going to be an exact clone (it seems) of the other FPS's around.
-Lee
@niaccurshi: I think if you need to weld these things or even maybe multiple welders to activate such objectives the teamplay could get in.
-Lee
And thanks for the compliment Flayra, that means a lot to me! I think your post will clear up a lot of questions... the idea of players being able to use level-ups to heal, getting expierience for class-specific actions etc sounds intriguing, and I think that information will probably remove a few fears some people have had.
On the front page newz, it said that the team with the most "levels" or the team that killed everyone in a single wave before the next one started. Of course, that was well before Flayra's previous clairifying post (ty btw <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ). It <i>might</i> have changed since then (the prior of more levels, for example, has probably been taken out in light of the new alien-win time), but I believe that if the aliens were successful at killing an entire team of marines before the timeout that the they would win - much like I feel that if the marine team kills all of the alien players before the elapsed time, that they would still win despite them not killing the hive.
All speculation to me. They might have taken those out entirely. If that's the case, I bet it wouldn't really matter... He makes these sound like they'll be 3-5 minute games. And, quite honestly, if you Power Level yourself and your team to utterly dominate the marine team in less than 3 minutes, then you deserve to gloat the rest of the 2 IMHO. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's a difference between not being able to wait to play this (as I too am interested in how well it'll work) and having it last longer than being a bit of a gimmick (re: Para in DoD). The trouble that is immediately obvious is that while some of us will aide the team (as an alien with SoF I always relay to the team where marines are moving to, just incase they don't know)...most will just take the upgrades and run. After a few waves of reinforcements the winners would most likely be decided because (as in CS), those that win the first three "rounds" are the ones that dominate most of the game as they have the more powerful abilities. There are enough players in NS right now that sit around shouting "put up a DC" rather than doing it themselves...so in this respetc you'll only see a minority of people choosing to go and upgrade to "medic" rather than shout for a medic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope this doesn't happen. I know I've personally taken the proverbial rez bullet for my team and put down the hive or put up 3 upgrade chambers while hoping to save for an advanced lifeform. Sometimes I play the perma-gorge and keep everything and everyone looking nice and spiffy and entrench every map point I know is valuable.
But... you see both a fewer amount of "medic" type players or "super comebacks" in other games similar to this. In most RTSs I've played, if you dominate the first few battles you'll end up winning the game most of the time, nigh <i>all</i> of the time. I also see a shorter amount of medics in most Team games that allow one, since it usually requires some form of quick communication so the medic can know what to do and who needs what.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that as much as we hate those, they might just be things that can never be entirely taken out of any game because it's either human nature or just basic gameplay mechanics. I guess the real goal is to have them as non-existant as possible...
Or not try at all. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>**edit: CRIPES I type slow and have a habit of looking at outdated posts! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's what his original post said anyway, and before the others pointed out the same thing I said.</i>
Actually, if the leveling system is rich enough, this might turn out to be an interesting change of pace.
One concern tho. Why would an alien want to leave the hive area? 1) it heals them, so staying by the hive would be preferable to not being by the hive since you'll probably live longer, and 2) marines have to get there and take out the hive to win, so the best place for you to stay so that you can react to marine assault on the hive would be near it. if marines can't get to the hive or can't kill it, Aliens win, so in essence, you'd probably be best of base-camping as an alien.
- I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true <b><u>"super-skulks"</b></u> (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^ Weeeeeeeeeee!!!
*now fully supporting NS:C*
PS:
ARRRRRRRRR!
I am very happy that flayra is making something like this. Some people don't like normal NS they need a more CS feel to the game and I think that by adding NS:combat, flayra will be bringing in alot of new players!
Im sure this would alrdy be known and taken care of or wouldve been found in first hour of pt'ing.
Also u dont know if the hive will heal u yet, even if it does it prolly wouldnt give u very much very fast.
And as the rules etc will be changed why cant hive hp be lowered so that if rines get up to it, it wont take much to kill it. This would be incentive enuff to try to keep the rines as far away from the hive as the aliens can.
Also im pretty sure the maps will be made so that when rines get to the hive it will be more rine friendly therefore forcing the aliens to come out from it and do sumthing.
-RD
Thx for the update Flayra I kinda figured u'd let this topic go to the scrap heap, and leave us with the inevitable wait and see, u have a tendency to do. Thanx for the change.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dam. I've only finished one corridor on my Combat map, and the gamemode is nearly complete <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, if the leveling system is rich enough, this might turn out to be an interesting change of pace.
One concern tho. Why would an alien want to leave the hive area? 1) it heals them, so staying by the hive would be preferable to not being by the hive since you'll probably live longer, and 2) marines have to get there and take out the hive to win, so the best place for you to stay so that you can react to marine assault on the hive would be near it. if marines can't get to the hive or can't kill it, Aliens win, so in essence, you'd probably be best of base-camping as an alien. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order to keep aliens from spawn camping, all they have to do is make the alien hive easy for marines to own in. So it will be important to kill the marine's <b>before</b> they can get there.
I dunno, but I must say that mass lerks are extreamlly powerful marine killers. Keep in mind that these won't be normal lerks you will be fighting in NS:C, but the lerks will be at least lv. 3 aliens so they will have a lot more HP.
But, on topic..
New mode sounds fun, I say implant it. If it is awkward, then people wont play it, simple as that. At least it will still be an option of play. No reason to not implant it.
i would have to agree, YES ME! of all people ^_^
I definetly cant wait to try being a medic though, gorge or rine i dont mind. Pity lerklift wouldnt be implemented it would be cool for this mode help the gorge keep up. I hope this isnt NS blasphemy mentioning plugins like this in Flays thread.
- RD <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hope NS Combat follows DOD's system. I find CS's gameplay to be mathematically flawed, in that the majority of players are spending the majority of rounds in dead limbo mode. When combat does occur, it's usually in repetitive locations in very small scale maps. DOD on the other hand, can feature massive maps thanks to advanced spawn points that adjust to changing battle lines. Plus the flag capture-and-hold system means there will be reasons to defend things, and thus reasons to flank stuff. 'Course, NS might not care about flanking and such since the combat is more arcade-ish
Very interesting. To me, it sounds very much like playing Original NS, only without the visible overhead of hives or the Commander. Upgrade buildings and chambers are virtual and individual instead. This is going to take an insane amount of balancing before people are comfortable with the strengths and weaknesses of each side's abilities. I will say this--the Marines are going to have a difficult time, and a round in which nobody is willing to be a team player and spend their levels assisting his teammates will be a bad round for them. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Teamwork, in a sense, will be a necessity. How is this so different from basic NS afterall?
There are some caveats, I think, however. I worry about a single very good player making a few good kills of stock marines and acquiring upgrades early on, and becoming even better. In a short time, this player acquires enough upgrades that he's unstoppable, and annihilates the whole enemy team with, say, a carapace-regeneration-celerity skulk of doom. With stomp as an ability. (j\k example.) Are there any measures whereby a heavily oppressed team can rally to take out a super-powerful opponent, and, in that situation, will the opponent simply respawn with the same abilities? Enlighten us! I'm intrigued with this mode now.
<3 the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS: Combat sounds like a fantastic idea to me. I've always found typical pubber teams to be more bearable in games like CS than in NS because you aren't so dependent on them; of course you'll win more games the better your team is, but you can still have a good time just playing the game even if your team is substandard. I think Combat will breathe fresh life into the game for a lot of people, myself included, and hopefully will prove as a good game type to fall back on when the RTS game becomes too frustrating.
As for its effect on the standard game-type population, I'm not too worried. I have a couple thoughts on the issue:
1.) Some say that it will bring more rambos to the standard games. I think it's the opposite. People who are not interested in the RTS playstyle will instead go play Combat, and people who only play NS for the Combat probably won't be interested in the standard type. Hopefully this will mean that the standard community will be more "pure", i.e. less players who are only there to rambo.
2.) It could sigificantly increase NS' potential fanbase. Not only will new players be attracted to the more deathmatch-ish mode, but players who have quit NS may come back to try it and players who were getting tired of NS might keep playing Combat. I think the prospect of a gametype that isn't nearly as teamwork-dependent will attract a lot of people, new to NS or not.
3.) It's obvious that a smaller percentage of the servers and players will go standard, since previously it was 100%... But it isn't like it's just going to die out. NS has thousands of players at a time just with the standard game type, and people that were enjoying it before still will after Combat is implemented. If some players would prefer Combat over Standard, I don't see why it shouldn't be made available to them. There will always be enough standard players for a good game, and I'm sure most of the more popular servers will still play it. Some players will hate Combat and never play it, some players will only play Combat(many of whom didn't play NS before), and some will play Combat just as an occasional break from standard NS. The two game types aren't mutually exclusive, you know. I don't see why it upsets people so much that players who don't enjoy NS' standard play that much will leave for Combat. The people who will never play standard NS again once Combat comes out are the people who probably would have quit the community had Combat not come out.
If I wanted to play CS or DoD with a bunch of kiddies who care about scores and kills and yell out "how much HP" after you kill them, then I <i>would</i> play CS and/or DoD. NS rocks and make it better before you change it to model it after a trendy FPS.
If I wanted to play CS or DoD with a bunch of kiddies who care about scores and kills and yell out "how much HP" after you kill them, then I <i>would</i> play CS and/or DoD. NS rocks and make it better before you change it to model it after a trendy FPS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about? He's not "changing" anything, it's a new game type. If you like NS as it is and really despise change that much, keep playing the standard mode.
I can´t wait to test it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll repost my observations...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Flayra
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS: C is to allow NS to grow properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to make a couple observations about this statement.
We realize the learning curve for NS isgreater then your mainstream FPS.
1) A game like NS should have a Training Map. I recall hearing that something was in progress but nothing ever came of it, revive the project. A new player needs to be briefed on the basics of marine and alien which you can't count on pub players to do. NS is not simple but is far from complex, couldn't all the necessary information be conveyed in a simple training map? If it can, it was needed 2 versions ago.
2) Whatever happened to the NS Guides? They were once a great welcoming committee for NS and IMO a necessity. NS is unique as it really requires teamwork. This will be new to many players and an ambassator can make the transition a little friendlier. They did a great job and their services are still badly needed. [EDiT]Wanted to add something- NS Guides should hang out on servers that frequently have good teamplay and these servers should be suggested to a newbie (maybe at the end of the training map?)[/EDiT]
3) We are not a newbie-friendly community. I've seen a couple threads on the topic in the past, and we always seem to kid ourselves into thinking we are helpful but we are not. As a player who gets in 2-3 hours of NS a night, I see a lot of regulars, gold skulk icons, medal icons, admin icons, and I can say the majority of the time newbies are berated and often ignored. We don't always make it easy to be new.
I believe these are some of the things that needs to be addressed if the "proper" growth of NS is your concern.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tough learning curve of NS has been known to us since the very beginning yet nothing has really been done to ease beginners into the game. We want NS to grow properly but do nothing to facilitate it. We whine that players don't cooperate, yet we do nothing to cultivate cooperation.
If Flayra expected gamers to embrace teamplay just because he created a great teamplay mod that was a gross miscalculation. If we thought gamers will just "come-around" to teamplay because it makes sense, that was naive.
I can't judge how popular or fun NS:C will be but maybe the developers and this community just isn't capable of supporting a true teamplay mod, perhaps NS:C is as much depth and teamplay as we can handle.
[EDiT]I don't mean to be harsh, but I have no interest in sucking up to Flayra or being "known-and-liked" in the community. My loyality is to the <b>unique, true teamplay experience</b> that can be NS and it pains me to see that we have not done everything we could to make it what we <b>know</b> it can be.[/EDiT]
...the hell?
I just meant I hope I have not been harsh in my assessment of fundamental things that has not been addressed that <i>needs</i> to be addressed for NS to grow properly.
But if what I said is harsh, it is because I don't care if I step on Flayra's toes or disagree with the general concensus of the communuity. My loyalty is to the idea behind NS, which is teamplay, and I want to see NS teamplay take off.
I don't think NS and the community has done everything in its' power to promote and cultivate teamplay... which is a pity because I thought that was what brought us here to begin with.
I'm very excited about this, actually. I'd love to see NS in another game style, and this would be the perfect opportunity to get my friend playing NS again after many unfortunate run-ins with uncompromising and rude NS players.
Anyway, I don't think the reason for the current state of NS pub games is relevant right now. Even if every pub player was capable of clan-level coordination with people they don't know, I would still think Combat is a good idea. It just provides players with more options to enjoy the game, and will bring in many new players to boot. Not everyone is attracted to the idea of such a strictly team-based game, and I think the attitude towards more action-oriented games in this community is rather unhealthy as we are seeing now... There's no reason to look down on people who would rather play a more Counterstrike/WC3 mod type of game than an FPS/RTS. I think some people take so much pride in being part of what they perceive to be a more "intelligent" game community that they refuse to accept the possibility of attracting "CS players" to the game as well, even if it's in a completely separate game mode.
I just don't understand why it offends people to have an action-oriented game mode in the same game as their FPS/RTS. What could possibly be wrong with making NS appeal to a broader audience than the relatively exclusive one that it does now? Think of it as a completely different game if that makes you happy, but don't try to deny other people something that they would enjoy just to maintain your feeling of superiority.