Cross List : They Are Hacking The Maps Again

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  • CutedgeCutedge Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20808Members
    edited September 2003
    Yes, I know that Valve has made it clear what it's intentions are. I'm saying that everyone and their brother is claiming that Steam is going to charge for Half-Life 1 because that's what a large (or at least it seems large) amount of people, idoits really, are claiming and whining about on the Steam forums. I'm not trying to debate it, there's nothing to debate. Steam won't charge for HL1. Peroid.

    Yes, they don't fall under the EULA. I don't know what I was thinking. Still, if they are agreeing with the users in the EULA that it's free, then changing it will change the agreement. SWG and EQ and all the MMORPGS have a clause to the effect of this:

    <i>"2. To play the Game, you must: (i) purchase the Software (as defined below in Paragraph 7) for Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided; (ii) have a fully paid Account; (iii) have a valid credit card (or, if we wish to make it available, a paid game card); and (iv) have an Internet connection (which we do not provide or pay for) to access your Account. In addition to any fees described herein, you are responsible for paying all applicable taxes (including those we are not required to collect) and for all hardware, software, service and other costs you incur to access your Account. Neither this Agreement nor your Account entitles you to any subsequent releases of the Game and/or the Software, any expansion packs nor similar ancillary products. You understand that we may update or otherwise enhance the Game and/or the Software at any time and in doing so incur no obligation to furnish such updates to you pursuant to this Agreement. You understand that online games evolve over time and, accordingly, system requirements to play the Game may change over time."</i>

    That's not in the HL1 EULA and it's not in the HL1 SDK EULA (which it wouldn't be, yes i know). Until I see a EULA pop up that says this, they aren't charging for half-life because they haven't made users agree to a contract that allows them to pay.




    But I digress. I'm obviously a moron and I have no place here. Thank you for informing me of that.
  • ParasiteParasite Join Date: 2002-04-13 Member: 431Members
    edited September 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Cutedge+Sep 29 2003, 05:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cutedge @ Sep 29 2003, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But I digress. I'm obviously a moron and I have no place here. Thank you for informing me of that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If you are going to take a simple discussion so personally, then no, you shouldnt be here.

    It wasnt meant to be a personal attack.


    Also, you still seem unclear as to what they are charging for...

    The monthly subscription service, allows access to ALL Valve games available during your subscription. You arent paying for mods. You are paying for HL, just the same as you would had you bought HL via retail. You have to pay for HL according to the EULA, and just as written in the EULA...Mods are free.
  • DoombringerDoombringer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8679Members, Constellation
    Yeesh. Guys. The way I interpreted it was that Subscription Steam allows you to play HL/HL2/mods without actually owning the software. Some people would rather pay $10 a month to play any Steam game they want instead of paying $50 for HL2 + whatever $$$ Valve decides to charge for other retail games on Steam. Read: retail. These could be retail mods and expansions (Blue Shift, Opposing Force, Gunman, etc.). Free mods will be lumped in there too, but you don't need to pay to play them if you already -own- HL/HL2 outright.

    Think of Subscription Steam as leasing a car. At the end of the lease, you don't get to keep the car. You can renew or lease another one. With Steam, you can add another month to your account, or you could actually BUY one of the games (and own it forever and ever). Or, dump everything and go play another game altogether.
  • ParasiteParasite Join Date: 2002-04-13 Member: 431Members
    Exactly.

    When HL2 comes out I am going to subscribe for a month or two till I beat it, and then stop paying. $20 to play through the game as opposed to $40-50 retail. I personally doubt multiplay will be worth it until some mods are released. Prolly a year or so after HL2 ships, but I will check out TF2.
  • CutedgeCutedge Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20808Members
    Ok, let me be clear then.

    <i>I agree with you.</i>

    The point is that people are saying that straight plain vanilla half-life and it's mods will have a monthly fee and that is incorrect. Obviously we both just had our wires crossed. I know that they are going to be offering all their games for a monthly fee (which i think is pointless, because in the end you'll end up paying way more for them unless you're a badass and you beat HL2 in a week and you don't want multiplayer) but people have been arguing that they're going to starting charging a monthly fee for everything <i>no matter what</i>, which is obviously untrue. My point was never "they aren't charging any fees", it was "they aren't charging any fees <i>for people who already own HL1</i>."

    Anyway, back on topic. You edited your post and addressed the original issue <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> :

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Deal with it, thats the internet for ya!" (paraphrasing) make me laugh. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, there are a lot of different mods out for the mods. I mean, there's the lerk lift and PhaseEQ and the health-from-the-armory-mod and such. Flayra isn't pursuing these people, to my knowledge. It's the same kind of thing. Neither is Gooseman going after people running WC3 on CS.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, you keep saying things like (again, paraphrasing)..."if they wanna hack the maps they can, theres nothing you can do about because its a waste of time and money to try" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't think that there's "nothing you can do about it", I just don't see why someone should waste the time going after people doing this. How widespread is it anyway? I play on the same servers rather than pubbing so I haven't seen these hacks.

    I don't know the feeling that someone has screwed with a map I spent hours on, so I'm not sure how I'd feel. If I was on the other side of the table, I'm sure I'd have a much different opinion. As it is, I don't even know <i>why</i> you would want to change the entities. Most maps are finely tuned so you just deal with it. Moving the entities so it's easier for one team or the other seems like a cop out. It's like turning on cheat codes because you can't beat it.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The internet is NOT above the law.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah, it just seems like it sometimes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The service providers can easily be included and held accountable in any lawsuit that may take place (however unlikely) and I can guarentee, they will protect thier reputation over a few servers bringing in money. Theres always someone higher you can go to. Go over thier heads...thats the first thing a lawyer would tell you if you were considering taking legal action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Going over their heads and having their service cut off doesn't seem like a particulary nice thing to do. I'm not sure I'd want to make someone's life that difficult because of this.
  • ParasiteParasite Join Date: 2002-04-13 Member: 431Members
    I agree...

    But I think the bulk of this discussion is not about what is nice, what is overkill or what is a waste of time. These things are relative to each individual and irrelavent to the law. This is about about the absolution of the law, and who the law will stand behind in such an event...and that person is the creator, not the server admin who wishes to alter the authors origional work.

    The law doesnt care about things that matter to me personally, IMO I find it disrespectful to alter anothers work, nor would I enjoy seeing, a freind spend months or hard work and have it tarnished in such a way. For my own work, I wouldnt care, just ask permission, and abide by my wishes regarding my work. If someone was using altered versions of my work having never asked permission, I would kindly discuss it with them, and if it turned out I wanted them to remove it, and they didnt...you bet your **** I would take up the matter with thier service provider. Not nescessarily to shut down thier server, but to have the altered content removed. This wont happen with me personally, because I am really laid back and wouldnt mind as long as I was asked permission...really not even permission, just make me aware of it.

    Flayra may or may not reserve the right to pursue Plug-in developers, but thats really not the point...if he does reserve that right, and <i>decides</i> not to pursue, that is his personal choice. It may be for any of the reasons weve mentioned in this poist...too much time or money, bad PR, its impolite or whatever. In the end, a judge would not ask him <i>why</i> he is exercizing his legal rights...but would ask the defendant why he decided to voilate those rights.
  • BlackPantherBlackPanther Join Date: 2002-02-11 Member: 197Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--XP-Cagey+Sep 29 2003, 06:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XP-Cagey @ Sep 29 2003, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BlankPanther, you may be impartial, but your statements were not (in fact, they were downright condescending in tone). I'll be addressing them appropriately.

    <!--QuoteBegin--BlackPanther+Sep 28 2003, 08:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlackPanther @ Sep 28 2003, 08:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying it's RIGHT to change someone's map, but hell, this is the same thing as for custom models for say, Counter-Strike. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    In every way that matters to this thread, they are completely different. Valve, the current owner of the Counter-Strike artwork, has stated that mod makers are free to replace the models in Counter-Strike, exempting them from any concern over copyright.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Loads of people are making hackjobs, and it's all fine as long as they give credit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You just finished saying that you aren't claiming it's right (did you mean morally? legally?) to change a map, but here you say it's fine with credit. I've already posted the section of the US legal code that says you're wrong in the legal sense (and is the final word on the subject for US-based Natural Selection subject to international treaties), so I won't repeat myself here.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EVEN if the author does not want anyone to change his stuff, it will still happen. That's the Internet for ya!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You're only stating the obvious. We wouldn't need a court system otherwise.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you going to spend time and maybe even money to track him down and try to sue him?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you mean a general "you", most bandwidth providers will help with stopping copyright violation to avoid being sued themselves, so once the company or school hosting the server has been found the work is mostly done. It might take a few hours of work in the absence of a DNS mapping for a numeric IP, but if someone was really upset over their map's treatment, spending half an evening to take action might not seem like a big sacrifice.

    I think a cease-and-desist letter to the bandwidth provider would be a simple solution, but Parasite has already noted in this thead that there are copyright lawyers who are changing their practices to do most of their business in small suits.

    I've already answered that question on a personal level on the first page of this thread, and I believe my own decision (that I don't project onto other people) is reasonable. I also updated and released a new copy of Ripent that doesn't break with the increased map limits the "p" series allows, so I obviously don't think that the ability to modify bsp files is itself a problem.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wake up and face the facts of the HL community people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Your post criticizes people's opinions on the enforceability of law, but the majority of the discussion has been applicability. You are projecting your own value judgement (that suing is too much effort) on every map author that will eventually make that choice; that's one hell of an assumption. You're also attempting to finish an argument by stating a personal opinion multiple times--stating your position doesn't close a debate.

    Finally, if people here didn't realize that server operators would hack maps without permission, could you explain why this thread exists? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    By custom models, i meant 3rd party models made by the community for any mode

    By "right with credits", i mean that if someone does a hackjob of your something you did without your consent, and i KNEW i couldn't do anything about it, i'd rather there be at least like a read-me file saying i was the original author.

    Yes i am stating the obvious. So sue me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    As for getting legal action, dude, a lot of people here are just kids! They got way better things to do then write letters to shut down the site of some nameless hackjobber which will only put it back up on another site like 2 days later. Even then, by the time he's down, the map/model/what ever will already have spread to tons of computers worldwide.

    Finally, i hate debates. You know why?
    Cuz there are always know-it-all people like you in these kinds of situations. Frankly, it's aggravating.

    And now, if you plz, do not reply in any form to this particular post.
    Ignore this reply completely.
    It will make me so happy.
  • CageyCagey Ex-Unknown Worlds Programmer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8829Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    edited September 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--BlackPanther+Sep 29 2003, 05:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlackPanther @ Sep 29 2003, 05:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By custom models, i meant 3rd party models made by the community for any mode<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So did I. So does Valve, who gave the community legal permission to make them when they adopted the mod as an official product. My response stands.

    EDIT: If you meant that Valve prohibits the <i>use</i> of custom models on VAC servers, that's not related to copyright discussion.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By "right with credits", i mean that if someone does a hackjob of your something you did without your consent, and i KNEW i couldn't do anything about it, i'd rather there be at least like a read-me file saying i was the original author.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Legal recourse exists; there is something you can do about it. Do you mean, "knew you <i>wouldn't</i> do anything about it"? Otherwise the situation you describe is fictional.

    Before you ask me if I'd personally sue, I've already stated above that I'd be OK with someone using ripent on my maps if they post a notice on the server. If I were placed in the situation we're describing, I'd ask for that notice to be added rather than issuing a cease-and-desist or a lawsuit.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for getting legal action, dude, a lot of people here are just kids! They got way better things to do then write letters to shut down the site of some nameless hackjobber which will only put it back up on another site like 2 days later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You are now saying that an author <i>won't</i> do something, which has nothing to do with whether they <i>can</i> and is a matter of personal choice. You said in your previous post that an author <i>can't</i> do anything, which was false.

    If someone put up a second server "2 days later" after being shut down for copyright violation and was belligerent enough to resume breaking the law, a lawsuit would almost be guaranteed success.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even then, by the time he's down, the map/model/what ever will already have spread to tons of computers worldwide.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thought we were talking about ripent server-side modification here <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, i hate debates. You know why?
    Cuz there are always know-it-all people like you in these kinds of situations. Frankly, it's aggravating.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    People with opposing ideas and valid points based in fact? Must be tough.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And now, if you plz, do not reply in any form to this particular post.
    Ignore this reply completely.
    It will make me so happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you want to stop typing, it's your prerogative.
  • enf0rcerenf0rcer intrigued... Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14584Members
    to make a long story short would it not be better just to get permission next time and save the hassle of 3 pages of rants.
  • BlackPantherBlackPanther Join Date: 2002-02-11 Member: 197Members
    First, i'd like to apologize to you XP-Cagey.
    When i get in debates like this, i get easily **** if someone has a different opinion from mine.
    So i try to stay away from debate... but often don't, which results in me looking more like an arse.
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