Want To Alienate Ns Players? Enquire Within..
Necrosis
The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">We can help!</div> EDIT-
Just to clarify at the start - the following is a misunderstanding as a result of being cranky and playing online at 6am. Let it be a lession to you all. The takehome message is that Lunixmonster rocks.
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Its quite simple folks.
First, pick a respectable server- lets say Lunixmonster. Its well known, its prominently linked from a respected site, and it has an established playerbase.
Stack one team with regular, experienced players. Stack the second team with 1 trained new player (which is good, because we like to teach new players), 1 cooperative team player, 1 person who plays NS when they're bored of TFC, and one totally silent player who neither answers nor responds.
Mix for 5 minutes. In this time, establish a colossal base outside each hive/marine spawn. Make no offensive moves, just sit there and turret/oc up.
Roughly 5 mins in, smash down the first hive/marine expansion. Let them build another hive/expansion. Smash that down too. Cap every res node on the map.
Now, normally, if you were mature players, you'd end the game because tbh the game is all but won (they're walled into their hive/spawn, and you own all the res). If you did this, the new player gets a quick learning experience in what does/does not work, and the older players don't sit and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for the obvious finish. Its the fair, polite thing to do.
Obviously we can't expect miracles - if someone has dropped sensory "for fun" then you make the best of what you have. If you've got marines beaten, perhaps you go fade, or onos, and do hit&runs on base. You'd like to smash it in one go (to end it quickly) but you're forced to slow the endgame because of a chamber choice. No problem.
However, if you want to totally alienate the playerbase of NS, here's what you do. First, you let them build another hive/expansion. And smash it down. Then, when they're walled into base, you go around the map capping res you dont need (because by now you're in a complete game winning position).
For added insult, add in another admin, and another established player. Put the admin on the stacked reg team, put the established player on the other team (to maintain balance). Let both experienced players complain (legitimately) about your childish behaviour in prolonging a game unnecessarily. Lie to these players that you're really doing your best.
Finally, rush the last hive/base. But dont shoot the hive/IP - shoot the chambers/armory/PG. All of them. All the dc, all the mc, all the armories, adv facilities..... in fact shoot anything BUT the hive/IP. Waste as much time as possible.
What have you achieved?
You've taught the beginner player that when you've obviously lost a game, the respected members of the NS "community" will delight in pulling the game out as long as possible - denying you the chance to actually learn anything.
Second, you've managed to alienate established players - the ones you rely on to bring other people into the "community".
In this way, you cripple any sort of growth, and in fact encourage the death of the community by forcing friendly players to go elsewhere for their gaming experience. Perhaps even to other games entirely. To really maximise this effect, make sure you alienate established players at a time when the playerbase are having difficulties with a new online gaming system. Your childish behaviour combined with a flawed interface will all but guarantee the death of your community! And thats what we want, isnt it!
TBH I've seen nothing thats rivalled the behaviour on the server tonight. I've worked in retail, I've had to demonstrate games to prospective customers, and I can tell you for a fact that dragging games out does not endear you to a new gamer. I can also tell you that dragging out a game is the single most childish thing you can attempt in a game.
I just thought this information would be useful to the community at large, since if its good enough for moderaters and admins of allegedly respectable servers and forums, then its good enough for all of us, isnt it?
All you people who are playing NS, encouraging new players, teaching them how the game works - you've all got it wrong. Follow the higher ups example - drag games out for over an hour, and just insult people if they point out that you're artificially dragging out the game.
I think thats my last game on Lunixmonster, and its certainly the last time I'm referring a new player to it. I'd like to think this was a one off, but with half a dozen regular players and two admins participating in this travesty, its kind of hard to explain away so rationally.
Just to clarify at the start - the following is a misunderstanding as a result of being cranky and playing online at 6am. Let it be a lession to you all. The takehome message is that Lunixmonster rocks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its quite simple folks.
First, pick a respectable server- lets say Lunixmonster. Its well known, its prominently linked from a respected site, and it has an established playerbase.
Stack one team with regular, experienced players. Stack the second team with 1 trained new player (which is good, because we like to teach new players), 1 cooperative team player, 1 person who plays NS when they're bored of TFC, and one totally silent player who neither answers nor responds.
Mix for 5 minutes. In this time, establish a colossal base outside each hive/marine spawn. Make no offensive moves, just sit there and turret/oc up.
Roughly 5 mins in, smash down the first hive/marine expansion. Let them build another hive/expansion. Smash that down too. Cap every res node on the map.
Now, normally, if you were mature players, you'd end the game because tbh the game is all but won (they're walled into their hive/spawn, and you own all the res). If you did this, the new player gets a quick learning experience in what does/does not work, and the older players don't sit and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for the obvious finish. Its the fair, polite thing to do.
Obviously we can't expect miracles - if someone has dropped sensory "for fun" then you make the best of what you have. If you've got marines beaten, perhaps you go fade, or onos, and do hit&runs on base. You'd like to smash it in one go (to end it quickly) but you're forced to slow the endgame because of a chamber choice. No problem.
However, if you want to totally alienate the playerbase of NS, here's what you do. First, you let them build another hive/expansion. And smash it down. Then, when they're walled into base, you go around the map capping res you dont need (because by now you're in a complete game winning position).
For added insult, add in another admin, and another established player. Put the admin on the stacked reg team, put the established player on the other team (to maintain balance). Let both experienced players complain (legitimately) about your childish behaviour in prolonging a game unnecessarily. Lie to these players that you're really doing your best.
Finally, rush the last hive/base. But dont shoot the hive/IP - shoot the chambers/armory/PG. All of them. All the dc, all the mc, all the armories, adv facilities..... in fact shoot anything BUT the hive/IP. Waste as much time as possible.
What have you achieved?
You've taught the beginner player that when you've obviously lost a game, the respected members of the NS "community" will delight in pulling the game out as long as possible - denying you the chance to actually learn anything.
Second, you've managed to alienate established players - the ones you rely on to bring other people into the "community".
In this way, you cripple any sort of growth, and in fact encourage the death of the community by forcing friendly players to go elsewhere for their gaming experience. Perhaps even to other games entirely. To really maximise this effect, make sure you alienate established players at a time when the playerbase are having difficulties with a new online gaming system. Your childish behaviour combined with a flawed interface will all but guarantee the death of your community! And thats what we want, isnt it!
TBH I've seen nothing thats rivalled the behaviour on the server tonight. I've worked in retail, I've had to demonstrate games to prospective customers, and I can tell you for a fact that dragging games out does not endear you to a new gamer. I can also tell you that dragging out a game is the single most childish thing you can attempt in a game.
I just thought this information would be useful to the community at large, since if its good enough for moderaters and admins of allegedly respectable servers and forums, then its good enough for all of us, isnt it?
All you people who are playing NS, encouraging new players, teaching them how the game works - you've all got it wrong. Follow the higher ups example - drag games out for over an hour, and just insult people if they point out that you're artificially dragging out the game.
I think thats my last game on Lunixmonster, and its certainly the last time I'm referring a new player to it. I'd like to think this was a one off, but with half a dozen regular players and two admins participating in this travesty, its kind of hard to explain away so rationally.
Comments
I for one do not like this, however I've seen it almost every game. It's sad that it alienates newcomers to such brutal, if not sad, type of play. And this whole Steam business isn't exactly the best timing either.
It almost becomes a game of counter-strike, where the vets and admins rack up kills with headshot upon headshot, racking up the $ and placing the other team at a disadvantage. That's the closest comparison I can come up with.
Hopefully, the balances of 2.01 discourages turtle-ing and the brutal yet non-lethal offense.
Some bad games you can do nothing about - bad map, bad team, perhaps you're tired, perhaps you're being lagged out. These things you accept - its all part of the online gaming experience.
Having experienced players (who DO know better) deliberately create a bad game is an entirely different league.
I'm not one for complaining over nothing, and despite being relatively new to the NS scene I embraced it wholeheartedly..... but if at the experienced level you get your jollies by dragging out games for longer than is strictly necessary and for no reason AT ALL..... well then thats a community/server than you don't need to attach yourself to.
Some people are saying that players are quitting NS every day. TBH I *did* put this down to bad players, people who didn't grasp the game, that sort of thing. However if they've experienced what amounts to effectively the abuse of other players, then I'm not surprised.
I'm not leaving NS over a few players who get their jollies from annoying others - that'd be a crime to the game. I'm just pointing out that this could be one reason why people are leaving - if this happens on a respected server with respected players, then one dreads to think what is happening on diabolically poor servers populated by exploiters.
I have to say my eyes have been opened. Unless someone can come up with a good explanation for why dragging out games is "fun" and encourages people to play more.
EDIT - just to take into account Javerts post
Yes, I agree that prolonging games is bad, and that constant headshots teach little.... but just to point out to other players, dragging out games just depresses new players, and belittles their intelligence. Additionally, it teaches them bad habits.
NS works on experience. You screw up, you lose. You try again, a little bit wiser. NS is not a game of you screw up, the other side toys with you for half an hour, making it quite obvious that you've lost, then proceed to insult you further until perhaps they feel like ending the game.
Just addressing the difference and similarities between the "short" CS headshot spam and the long drawn out game of "anything you try will be useless" NS game. Bottom line, you learn nothing, and other players are just taking the opportunity to insult you by their actions. This might wash on poor quality badly regulated servers, but on RESPECTED servers with an established playerbase, you automatically expect a higher standard of behaviour - no matter how bored people are.
Its a slap in the face to beginners, and an insult against players who know rightly well what you're doing.
I enjoy this scenario because starship troopers was one of my favorite movies, and I greatly enjoyed the scene wherein they were "holding out" against the alien onslaught while they waited for dropships to arrive.
I want to make an NS map within which the marines cannot leave their base, but they get 3 RTs which are easily defended. The aliens get free range of RTs and Hive locations, and they must merely attack the marines' start location until they overpower them. It's *DESIGNED* to be a stalemate map! Am I the only one who'd absolutely LOVE this map?
Reg stack on LM is relitive, most that were on at that time weren't actually regs.
I consider team A, that is losing, begging team B to finish the game <b>BUT</b> the whole time team A is still fighting tooth and nail, to be <i>incredible</i>.
After monitoring the games progress for 30 mins on HLSW, I decided to jump in, join marines and assist in ending this game that was on ns_veil and a stalemate from the looks of it.
I suited up in HA, grabbed a GL, got ammo, motioned to a HA/HMG that was in base doing nothing to follow me, and set up for the hive in Cargo Transfer intending to take it down once and for all.
Ran into a nice WOL 1/3 of the way, 8 OC's, 8 DC's and 8 of whatever other chamber it was. At 4 grenades at a time, reload, 4 more, repeat, this took about 16 grenades just to clear the OC's, at which point we pushed on.
Got to cargo transfer, and hmm, HA are dropping like flies to skulks! I proceed to unload a clip on the hive, reload, and what's this, two skulks running right at me! My HMG escort was like, chasing a gorge or somewhat, I could shoot the hive again, be out of ammo, and die, or shoot the skulks. I elect the latter, kill them...and unload on the hive again, but no, I have to get attacked again! This is delaying the hive's death! If the whole team is wanting us to kill them off why don't they just type kill in console and sit dead and let us at it? The hive went down not long after, but it took an extra few mins.
Would you rather had me gone aliens, and prolonged the game another 10, 15, 30 mins? Your logic makes no sense. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That said, I'd like you to reconsider your choice and not base decisions off of one game, but hey, you can do what you want, doesn't matter to me. <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
Those that were present were stacked on rines. I don't particularly mind, because rines have a tricky time as is - however to be saddled with several woefully uncooperative players doesn't help considering the additional circumstances. The main point is that decent experienced players were on the marine side - at least 3 of whom (before your intervention as I recall) were experienced in NS and could have acted to finish the game.
"I consider team A, that is losing, begging team B to finish the game BUT the whole time team A is still fighting tooth and nail, to be incredible."
Aliens weren't fighting tooth and nail though. Rines had tfed most RTs and certainly elec'd virtually all. They'd constructed a PG and siege unchallenged at subsector and this was after romping through a woefully undefended Pipeline. I wouldn't call myself a military genius, but if you can stomp through two hives with ease then I consider the game to be very much in its closing stages.
"After monitoring the games progress for 30 mins on HLSW, I decided to jump in, join marines and assist in ending this game that was on ns_veil and a stalemate from the looks of it."
At that point the rines had already decided to fall back and take no offensive action, other than chasing *one* lerk who claimed to kill "lots of ****" before evolving to fade..... and dying. One gorge, me, had tried to retake a hive, making the team fully aware of our need to get a hive so that we had hive 2 abilities. A second gorge had decided to build half a dozen OC in dbl res, and the last player was milling about aimlessly as a skulk. That was essentially it until Pjof joined (after another player left).
"I suited up in HA, grabbed a GL, got ammo, motioned to a HA/HMG that was in base doing nothing to follow me, and set up for the hive in Cargo Transfer intending to take it down once and for all."
Laudable but at the same time you'll recall another player saying they'd already been trying to convince the team to take down the hive.
"Ran into a nice WOL"
Probably dbl res, which was cleared in short order by what was either a siege or grenades. Cleared for the second time, I might add, when at this point it wasn't strictly necessary (marines having controlled all the res for the bulk of the game, with one gorge having built 2 hives and another having lamed up west skylight and dbl node, for whatever reason).
"Got to cargo transfer"
By this stage its 3 skulks, two of whom have had enough and want it ended, one who's still working to its own plan, and one wayward gorge. Gorge got shot, came back as skulk.
At this point cargo, the last hive, gets shaken by gren fire. Biccies, we think its all over. Finally. However, one HA enters, walks right up to the chambers, and shoots them up - totally ignoring the hive. This would be the point where I made comments about shooting the hive, not the chambers. The marines were in a strong position, the aliens mediocre and the only two alien players working on the same scorecard had already worked out the end conclusion.
"If the whole team is wanting us to kill them off why don't they just type kill in console and sit dead and let us at it?"
Because you have to bear in mind most regular players view /kill or F4 in a very poor light. Using it to end what seemed (to us) to be a dragging out of a game would be stooping to the same (perceived) level of poor sportmanship. The two experienced alien players knew it was over, in fact one of them (me, since pjof hadn't entered) knew it was over when the two hives got totalled. When both hives went down with no defence from other aliens, that was the signifier that the game was over.
"Would you rather had me gone aliens, and prolonged the game another 10, 15, 30 mins? Your logic makes no sense."
I'd rather the whole map got restarted or the alien team just get suicided to speed things along. We knew we'd lost, that wasnt the problem - the problem was the long wait for the marines to figure out the hive was wide open. I say hive because a few other select locations had been lamed up for reasons unknown. Furthermore, I highly doubt half the alien team even knew what /kill or F4 was.
The logic does make sense - the game had been decided, spectating for half an hour would have revealed the mediocre level of alien play. Nothing would have solved it. When Pjof entered and asked a gorge to heal him while he took down an elec rt, the gorge just stared at him. I went gorge to help, took the rt down, then received the inevitable marine HMG JP response. The game was well in marine hands.
I come from a sporting/gaming background. I believe in player etiquette, polite sporting treatment of the opposition, because at the end of the day we're all part of the one community. However what I experienced on the server was a marine team that totalled both hives then pulled back to allow us to rebuild and lose more hives. A marine team that had effectively won the game.
Its like aliens rushing a marine base, killing everything but the CC and RT, then exiting the base and sitting round the corner.
End of the day, I wasn't on the marine team, so I don't know what was being bandied about by the comm.... but what I did see was a PG base right beside a hive that did absolutely nothing until the hive was up, then sieged it without interference. I saw a bunch of marines take down dbl res only to lose it and then try to take it back again, at a point where the aliens were already telling marines to finish it. And finally I saw an HA barge into cargo hive, bypass the Hive and start attacking MCs.
Those three events indicate to me that marines were dragging the game. Possibly for the benefit of the new player, possibly not. If that was the reason, then fair enough but IMHO its unfair to expose new players to dragged out games. And certainly an insult to fairly regular players who just want to get on with the gaming. Call me old fashioned but I don't subject other players to drawn out games, so I expect the same courtesy in return.
And at the end of the day, for such an absolutely diabolical match that had been observed by yourself, I would have expected a bit of understanding considering what we had to endure. XK the new player was working away happily but egad the other two had serious problems with the gameplay. They might not have liked me but if they're not even helping out Pjof who's giving sound advice........
From my POV the whole game was a travesty. Zero teamwork, zero defence, marine team in a winning position who deliberately stalled themselves just to bleed out the game for another 15 mins, when a basic shotty rush would have crushed the hives. Hell, the HMG JP took out pipe v fast, and pipe was arguably better defended <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT -
Or in fact I'm a cranky little git who had a really bad run of games and had this as the icing on the cake.
A cranky little git who really should know better, having played on the Lunixmonster server for a decent enough amount of time to know that neither LB nor the regs are vindictive evil players. In fact, I should be lucky that I'm not banned and the fact that LB took the time to reply further indicates that I am acting like a prat.
Arg. Well there's a moderate waste of a topic. Sorry all - cranky night, slew of dire teams, just wanting to get it all over with = po'ed Necrosis. And seeing poor play where it didn't exist.
Better go and edit all the other crap I spouted.
*sigh* Is what happens when you update in haste after thinking you've been crucified.
*embarassment*
Those that were present were stacked on rines. I don't particularly mind, because rines have a tricky time as is - however to be saddled with several woefully uncooperative players doesn't help considering the additional circumstances. The main point is that decent experienced players were on the marine side - at least 3 of whom (before your intervention as I recall) were experienced in NS and could have acted to finish the game.
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As I was one of the 'experienced in NS' ones, I have to say that this is an unfair assumption. Those experienced in NS who play on the Marine side follow orders. We don't rambo off to kill things, because moving in a group is powerful. Unless the Comm gives a waypoint or a verbal order, it's unlikely that you'll reach the Marine 'critical mass' where survival (and equipment-retention) becomes a much more favorable prospect. Unless you overrule the Comm, giving up any medpack, building, or ammo support.
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"I consider team A, that is losing, begging team B to finish the game BUT the whole time team A is still fighting tooth and nail, to be incredible."
Aliens weren't fighting tooth and nail though. Rines had tfed most RTs and certainly elec'd virtually all. They'd constructed a PG and siege unchallenged at subsector and this was after romping through a woefully undefended Pipeline. I wouldn't call myself a military genius, but if you can stomp through two hives with ease then I consider the game to be very much in its closing stages.
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Pipeline was our first target for a lock-down. We three Marines went in, killed ONE gorge, dumped an RT and a TF, and were ordered along to Subsector after building TWO turrets. If that's 'romping', I'd like to hear your choice of synonym for a full 30-turret lockdown. Note, at this point the game was a 5-5 match.
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"After monitoring the games progress for 30 mins on HLSW, I decided to jump in, join marines and assist in ending this game that was on ns_veil and a stalemate from the looks of it."
At that point the rines had already decided to fall back and take no offensive action, other than chasing *one* lerk who claimed to kill "lots of ****" before evolving to fade..... and dying. One gorge, me, had tried to retake a hive, making the team fully aware of our need to get a hive so that we had hive 2 abilities. A second gorge had decided to build half a dozen OC in dbl res, and the last player was milling about aimlessly as a skulk. That was essentially it until Pjof joined (after another player left).
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Actually, allow me to give a little bit of a peek into our minds when setting up the Subsector mini-base. 'Oh****oh****oh****!!!' We were almost certain that the reason we met with no resistance was because one Alien was going Onos, and was about to take us out. We were met with NO response, PERIOD, until after a PG, TF, Siege, and four turrets were put up. And that response was a single Fade. No backup, no rush. ONE player taking the initiative to actually DEFEND from a mini-outpost that was going up. If the Kharaa chose to abandon the hive (ie: not take out the mini-base) then that is their own damn fault.
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"Ran into a nice WOL"
Probably dbl res, which was cleared in short order by what was either a siege or grenades. Cleared for the second time, I might add, when at this point it wasn't strictly necessary (marines having controlled all the res for the bulk of the game, with one gorge having built 2 hives and another having lamed up west skylight and dbl node, for whatever reason).
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Actually, that was West Skylight. NanoStatus was taken out by a siege, conveniently located in an alcove-room that a certain Marine remembered to weld shut.
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"Got to cargo transfer"
By this stage its 3 skulks, two of whom have had enough and want it ended, one who's still working to its own plan, and one wayward gorge. Gorge got shot, came back as skulk.
At this point cargo, the last hive, gets shaken by gren fire. Biccies, we think its all over. Finally. However, one HA enters, walks right up to the chambers, and shoots them up - totally ignoring the hive. This would be the point where I made comments about shooting the hive, not the chambers. The marines were in a strong position, the aliens mediocre and the only two alien players working on the same scorecard had already worked out the end conclusion.
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You do not go after an enemy's heart, while his hand still holds a knife. I'd told my squadmates to kill the upgrade chambers first, so we would have less problem with spawning Skulks being boosted by their area-of-effect bonuses. After killing the chambers, we immediately turned all but one gun on the Hive. Mine. I kept watch for spawners, covering my squadmates' backs like a good Marine should.
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"If the whole team is wanting us to kill them off why don't they just type kill in console and sit dead and let us at it?"
Because you have to bear in mind most regular players view /kill or F4 in a very poor light. Using it to end what seemed (to us) to be a dragging out of a game would be stooping to the same (perceived) level of poor sportmanship. The two experienced alien players knew it was over, in fact one of them (me, since pjof hadn't entered) knew it was over when the two hives got totalled. When both hives went down with no defence from other aliens, that was the signifier that the game was over.
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Yet Pipeline hive which the minibase was FINALLY taken down in and built, had fortifications. Chambers. Defending Kharaa. As did Cargo. If it was lost and not wanting to draw it out, why did you bother clearing and building Pipeline?
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"Would you rather had me gone aliens, and prolonged the game another 10, 15, 30 mins? Your logic makes no sense."
I'd rather the whole map got restarted or the alien team just get suicided to speed things along. We knew we'd lost, that wasnt the problem - the problem was the long wait for the marines to figure out the hive was wide open. I say hive because a few other select locations had been lamed up for reasons unknown. Furthermore, I highly doubt half the alien team even knew what /kill or F4 was.
The logic does make sense - the game had been decided, spectating for half an hour would have revealed the mediocre level of alien play. Nothing would have solved it. When Pjof entered and asked a gorge to heal him while he took down an elec rt, the gorge just stared at him. I went gorge to help, took the rt down, then received the inevitable marine HMG JP response. The game was well in marine hands.
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IIRC that was a JP/Shotty response. Only our HAs were given Heavies, though one JP did snag a GL.
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I come from a sporting/gaming background. I believe in player etiquette, polite sporting treatment of the opposition, because at the end of the day we're all part of the one community. However what I experienced on the server was a marine team that totalled both hives then pulled back to allow us to rebuild and lose more hives. A marine team that had effectively won the game.
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Actually, we pulled back because our Start had fallen under attack from an opportunistic Gorge, who took out an RT, set up WOLs across the corridors leading from MS, and was trying to do damage to our base. We only 'pulled back' while clearing out the OCs, DCs, RT, and MCs he had emplaced.
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Its like aliens rushing a marine base, killing everything but the CC and RT, then exiting the base and sitting round the corner.
End of the day, I wasn't on the marine team, so I don't know what was being bandied about by the comm.... but what I did see was a PG base right beside a hive that did absolutely nothing until the hive was up, then sieged it without interference. I saw a bunch of marines take down dbl res only to lose it and then try to take it back again, at a point where the aliens were already telling marines to finish it. And finally I saw an HA barge into cargo hive, bypass the Hive and start attacking MCs.
Those three events indicate to me that marines were dragging the game. Possibly for the benefit of the new player, possibly not. If that was the reason, then fair enough but IMHO its unfair to expose new players to dragged out games. And certainly an insult to fairly regular players who just want to get on with the gaming. Call me old fashioned but I don't subject other players to drawn out games, so I expect the same courtesy in return.
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As I've interjected, we were not drawing the game out. Kharaa were putting up a fight, so we were making certain that fight would fail. I actually expected the siege base to fall quite swiftly, and tried to get the spotter who moved up to just wait for a sweep to avoid nasty surprises. Coincidence happens. Either the Comm has a really good sense of timing, or it was dumb luck that it happened that way, in that instance.
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And at the end of the day, for such an absolutely diabolical match that had been observed by yourself, I would have expected a bit of understanding considering what we had to endure. XK the new player was working away happily but egad the other two had serious problems with the gameplay. They might not have liked me but if they're not even helping out Pjof who's giving sound advice........
From my POV the whole game was a travesty. Zero teamwork, zero defence, marine team in a winning position who deliberately stalled themselves just to bleed out the game for another 15 mins, when a basic shotty rush would have crushed the hives. Hell, the HMG JP took out pipe v fast, and pipe was arguably better defended <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
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There were a grand total of THREE HAs in that 'final rush' as that's all that were assigned to it. Probably would have done better with shotguns for the insta-takedown, but we preferred careful advancement rather than gung-ho bounce-around-like-idiot CQB fighting 'tactics'. We also already had the GL and HMGs... not like we're really given a choice.
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EDIT -
Or in fact I'm a cranky little git who had a really bad run of games and had this as the icing on the cake.
A cranky little git who really should know better, having played on the Lunixmonster server for a decent enough amount of time to know that neither LB nor the regs are vindictive evil players. In fact, I should be lucky that I'm not banned and the fact that LB took the time to reply further indicates that I am acting like a prat.
Arg. Well there's a moderate waste of a topic. Sorry all - cranky night, slew of dire teams, just wanting to get it all over with = po'ed Necrosis. And seeing poor play where it didn't exist.
Better go and edit all the other crap I spouted.
*sigh* Is what happens when you update in haste after thinking you've been crucified.
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Bad days happen to everyone.
"If that's 'romping', I'd like to hear your choice of synonym for a full 30-turret lockdown. Note, at this point the game was a 5-5 match."
The romping bit was the minisiege in Sub (Anything involving a PG tends to be something serious, moreso if it stays up unchallenged).
"We were almost certain that the reason we met with no resistance was because one Alien was going Onos, and was about to take us out."
If only it were the case..... nah, what had happened was I'd blown my res on hives that noone would defend (this'd be before pjof turned up) and the lerk who went fade had zero support from the other skulk (gorge was sitting in dbl res, and I was in sub trying to peek out).
"Kharaa chose to abandon the hive (ie: not take out the mini-base) then that is their own damn fault."
Aye, and I'd no problem with that, it was the perceived lull in the festivities which threw me.
"Yet Pipeline hive which the minibase was FINALLY taken down in and built, had fortifications. Chambers. Defending Kharaa. As did Cargo. If it was lost and not wanting to draw it out, why did you bother clearing and building Pipeline?"
That was when Pjof showed up and we tried to get a second hive again - I got renewed confidence that we could pull back a stalemate or war of attrition (bear in mind at this point I thought the marines were sitting back and hoarding res). When the marine response arrived, thats when Pjof and I sort of agreed that 2 kharaa with no res weren't going to turn the tide, hehe.
Course by that stage I was totally convinced that marines were sitting on their laurels, for X reasons. Hrm, you know most of this would have been avoided if that gorge had spoke up. At the very least we could have gave your base a run for its money properly, rather than a rambo gorge building chambers none of us knew about.
Meh, bad teamwork and poor sportsmanship grind on me heavily. Combining the two in my mind didnt help, heh. Still thats it cleared up anyhow.
LB has that effect on people sometimes. You get used to it.
Anyway
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You do not go after an enemy's heart, while his hand still holds a knife. I'd told my squadmates to kill the upgrade chambers first, so we would have less problem with spawning Skulks being boosted by their area-of-effect bonuses. After killing the chambers, we immediately turned all but one gun on the Hive. Mine. I kept watch for spawners, covering my squadmates' backs like a good Marine should.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, this has to be completely laughable. From what I've gathered you had HA, probably 3/3 upgrades and likely weapons like HMG/GL whatever. The aliens that were spawning would of had NO chance to upgrade at all, the area of effect benefits are so slight (you're going to take movement chambers down over a hive?! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA, please become a comedian!) as to be ignorable in such situations. The hive heals FAR faster than a defence chamber, spawns skulks and generally benefits the aliens far more.
Now if you meant OC's and maybe sensory chambers I definitely agree. Sensory chambers would give you a massive headache, but defence and movement chambers effects are irrelevant to skulks because they won't live long enough to get a benefit from either.
Quite frankly, an experienced player who chooses to shoot chambers over a hive isn't really that experienced.
For a general comment, if you are winning just end the damn game. Blast the HIVE to pieces, you don't have to kill every friggin building the aliens have made. For aliens, don't devour spam IP's, just gore them to death or whatever and end the game. Don't 'let them rebuild' or any such ****.
It's exactly what necrosis has described, that to him is a poor one off game, that is a regular experience for me. I nearly quit 2.0 because of this sort of crap and can fully sympathise with him.
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That's a balsy thing to say to a playtester/ forum mod. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
If I'd been in the same situation, having to slog through the WoLs that were shoved in dbl res and skylights, then I'd have teched up before trying to kill the hive - no matter what 2 aliens were saying to the contrary.
Its just when I was on the alien side, with little/no idea of what the team was doing, it was easy to see in the wrong light.
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That's a balsy thing to say to a playtester/ forum mod. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really.
As I said, if you choose to shoot down movement chambers say, over a HIVE then you have something funny going on. Movement chambers are all but useless for defence because they have a short radius and don't benefit skulks anyway, essentially a waste of ammunition. Defence chambers are better, but only 1 or 2 aren't going to do a thing overall (a mass of say 8 and a WoL is an entirely different story).
In the end, I can't count the times I've screamed at people as comm to shoot the damn hive and not get upset about that one OC. I have seen marine teams LOSE games because they can't prioritise hives over 2 OC's and a gorge in a corridor.
I'm honestly not sure about this 'kill chambers' over hives logic unless it's a ton of OC's (against HA OC's are nothing anyway), or a ton of DCs or sensory. There is otherwise no reason to attack chambers over a hive in the siutation that was described. It makes *no* sense whatsoever.
Maybe it's just me, but what Talesin said is the exact **** I see all the time. Instead of just having 2-3 Marines point their delightful level 3 HMG at the hive and just FINISH it, I see them running around, knifing the res/chambers and building TF for a seige. All the while they just spawn camp the skulks. There isn't a point to that at all. There is no logic, no strategic value in sitting around knifing the aliens last movement/defence chamber, when you're sitting in their last hive spawn camping them. Are level 1 skulks backed up by an OC (maybe) and a DC (maybe) at all more likely to take out 4-5 HA?
Of course, I could just be more bitter and twisted about this sort of thing, because I play in these games all the time. Clan/Reg one side, n00bs on the other with maybe 2 experienced players. I either have a game that is brutally short, or one that is just a pointless struggle where you've automatically lost. I would get VERY annoyed if I saw marines **** around knifing chambers instead of just finishing the damn game by killing the hive. I would bring up again that this is against RESPAWNING skulks, which probably won't even have the time to gestate (sometimes even move) before being mowed down.
I'll reiterate, if you have difficulty as an HA marine with a SG/HMG killing respawning skulks (most of whom are new) that is just sad <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> It's as silly as saying on an alien team not to knock out the IP's over the observatory....
I enjoy this scenario because starship troopers was one of my favorite movies, and I greatly enjoyed the scene wherein they were "holding out" against the alien onslaught while they waited for dropships to arrive.
I want to make an NS map within which the marines cannot leave their base, but they get 3 RTs which are easily defended. The aliens get free range of RTs and Hive locations, and they must merely attack the marines' start location until they overpower them. It's *DESIGNED* to be a stalemate map! Am I the only one who'd absolutely LOVE this map? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree with this, i wouldn't want it all the time.
I would of teched up anyway with the large amount of res they supposedly held. I suppose it depends on how regular you are to a server. After a while you know all the good/average players and can recognise when teams are badly stacked to death. I know from just looking at the teams if it will be a gg, loss or just the usual prolonged crap.
From the sounds of things, the marines thought the aliens had a lot more cleverness than in reality they did. That is what lead to the marines prolonging the game for seemingly no reason. In a server with more regulars I've found that stacked games end quick, because the aliens/marines know they can just do whatever they want and stil win basically. When you aren't sure about the compency of the other side then I suppose marines killing chambers, rather than blowing the hive to smithereens quicker would seem like stupidly drawing the game out.
Whenever I see that I know it's just one team being purely vindicative in my experience.
As well, there were only three HAs. Two had HMG, one had a GL. Great for anti-onos, not that good for insta-popping skulks. As I made clear in a previous post. The rest of the team had been ordered elsewhere, and were actually following orders for once.
Please read through the entirety of a thread before you respond to it. The game was not drawn out unneccessarily; individual Aliens caused distractions which merited response. Marines were diverted to take care of it, to prevent the chance of a re-expansion... which if successful would only have drawn the game out longer. Necrosis has acknowledged this. Kindly drop it. Now.
I've usually found that isn't much of a problem, and disorients the alien just as much. It is also very hit and miss, you could end up right in a perfect firing position.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Great for anti-onos, not that good for insta-popping skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not a wonderful marine yet I have no problems pasting skulks with an HMG at all. If I'm in HA I'm further less worried by a skulk. Sometimes it can be difficult if things get a little laggy or if that skulk is REALLY good. But generally even then it will be over shortly for the skulk.
I fail to see the merits in doing that unless you are defending against a large amount of aliens. If they were respawning however, I see no real point, the spawn points are fixed. A quick sweep to locate them and bam. Sure the HMG isn't as wonderful as a shotgun for factory camping, but it does the job well enough against skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please read through the entirety of a thread before you respond to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I did <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game was not drawn out unneccessarily; individual Aliens caused distractions which merited response. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I've already said that I realise why this occured and have more or less described some of my own experiences. Once again, when I've found that marines don't bother killing hives it is just to delay it out and spawn camp for a bit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game was not drawn out unneccessarily; individual Aliens caused distractions which merited response. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already accepted your reason why (post right above yours) and agree. In general I find that I know if it is deliberate prolonging or not because I know everyone in the server. Where did I accuse you of that? I said initially that I found killing chambers over hives is *really* odd to me from *my* experience, and then in a later reply after having a further think I basically agreed that you thought the aliens posed much more of a threat than they were (hence why you you seemed to be delaying the game for no reason, when in reality you did have reason too).
In neither case did I ever accuse you of deliberately prolonging the game to be vindictive, just that I thought your actions were very odd (I still do).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines were diverted to take care of it, to prevent the chance of a re-expansion... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is true, but I don't think the aliens really threatened that overly much, except for the necrosis taking back pipeline hive. But what do you do in that kind of situation? I like to sometimes just bugger around and do nothing, but then people just yell at you for not doing anything. These are also the same people that are going "MARINES END IT" or "RECYCLE FFS". You can't bloody win either way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->which if successful would only have drawn the game out longer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That depends, usually if I have a HA train and am outside a hive with a disorganised alien team it hardly matters. Hives dead=aliens lost. The sad reality is I see games prolonged simply because the marine team is obsessed with taking out 2 OC's in a corridor. As for stopping their expansion, if they are expanding shouldn't you technically just wipe their hive off the face of the station?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kindly drop it. Now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was reffering to similar issues that I see fairly often. What necrosis has described as happening to him once happens to me regularly. I still fail to see your point about the chambers, you could of simply guarded the other two while the GL uses its uber anti structureness rather than bothering with killing chambers. Incidently, you seem to be rather offended, I wasn't trying to insult you.
Perhaps this should be carried through to another thread now however.