<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Sep 24 2003, 01:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Sep 24 2003, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 24 2003, 09:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 24 2003, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wanna see a build where OC's cost 5. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We did that in one of the last builds during 2.0 playtesting. It was horrible, OC spamming everwhere. You couldn't go anywhere without running into at least 6 oc's. This game is about players versus players, not player versus immobile AI structure. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I see the team has gone to great lenghts to stop that...
please... don't throw the 'I don't want to fight AIs' crap because we've all seen turretfarming, and how quick and easy it is. Why isn't there a limit on turrets? Why is there a limit on O Chambers? The defensive options are so unbalanced it's not even funny.
OCs fall faster then a huge turretfarm simply because the aliens have this lousy short-range bilebomb, the 100 res onos, and...yeah. The marines have shotguns, GLs, HA, and siege (Which is another good point. You don't like lots of O chambers and fighting Ais... so why the hell are most hives killed via AI?)
What's wrong with running into 6 o chambers everywhere? I run into 30+ turrets everywhere. The marines can take down chambers at pretty much any range, because O chambers have VERY short range. The aliens have to run up to them with their dumpy little short-ranged attacks.
A small step in helping the problem would be to stop OCs from attacking anything that isn't built. Then those marines would have to sit there and build the CC first, getting pummelled along the way. Another would be to have OCs randomly attack whatever targets are in their range. This would fix future "exploits" that prey on the OC firing characteristics.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Sep 24 2003, 02:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Sep 24 2003, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 24 2003, 09:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 24 2003, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wanna see a build where OC's cost 5. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We did that in one of the last builds during 2.0 playtesting. It was horrible, OC spamming everwhere. You couldn't go anywhere without running into at least 6 oc's. This game is about players versus players, not player versus immobile AI structure. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, but see, I remember that chagelog, you had only 5 res for an OC but they each had 1000+ life.
That's not what I want.
5 res, and 550 hp. This way, one <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> > O chamber. One LMG + Pistol clip, and it's down the drain.
This way, it would be more about the players rather than some dumb structures.
However, the O chambers would still be really useful if it had backup, as it would still be just as strong as it is now, and it would be cheaper meaning faster defense.
Think of the turrets from TFC. They die in seconds without support. With support, they can last the entire game without dying.
Now that is what I'd like to see.
Also, lone O chambers would still be good as when they die it will give a warning to everyone via hive sight. So lone O chambers won't be a real waste of res, as it can easily be an early warning system of sorts, as opposed to the O chambers of now which are way too expensive to use like that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Sep 21 2003, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Sep 21 2003, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Play NS:C and forget about this oldskool rubbish. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This isn't the answer <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Natural Selection is going to go from a largely revolutionary concept to a gimmicky deathmatcher with the addition of Combat. I can just see it. By this time next year, the majority of NS servers will be Combat.
Don't get me wrong, Combat is a cool idea, but you can't argue against the fact that it strips out most of what made NS so unique. The gameplay is also more 'simple' so you'll surely have more CS smacktards playing it.
/shakes head Forlorn didn't you read what I posted?
550 HPs would go down in seconds. What good would it be having a 8 chamber WoL when they are removed in seconds. 1 GL could smoke the WoL before it killed 1 person.
Whats needed is stronger OCs, not weaker ones in more numbers. otherwise you have a alien turret farm. Every area.
that would suck! and would be SUCH A WASTE OF RES! if your OCs go down in seconds, it would mean you need to place them back more offten. If you didn't want to have to keep placing them, you would need DCs so they could live. you would also need ALOT of DCs 3:1 ration of DCs to OCs would be needed, and that would be even more wasteful on res.
The solution is:
-OCs back to 1200 life -OCs back to full DMG -OCs get a power boost from MCs
Basicly make the OCs worth putting up again. If you want to get past a WoL, use one of the many things you have at your command. Sieges (which are only used on maps to explote "Viel, Hara"), GL's which are suspose to be structure destroyers not ONII killers. SGs they still seem to destroy structures faster than an HMG. HMGs, they shoot mad amounts of rnds and DMG.
The Kharaa have 1 farm killer..... the ONOS. Gorges can't get close enough. Lerks are powerless, fades are useless till hive 3 vs farms.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 25 2003, 10:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 25 2003, 10:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> /shakes head Forlorn didn't you read what I posted?
550 HPs would go down in seconds. What good would it be having a 8 chamber WoL when they are removed in seconds. 1 GL could smoke the WoL before it killed 1 person.
Whats needed is stronger OCs, not weaker ones in more numbers. otherwise you have a alien turret farm. Every area.
that would suck! and would be SUCH A WASTE OF RES! if your OCs go down in seconds, it would mean you need to place them back more offten. If you didn't want to have to keep placing them, you would need DCs so they could live. you would also need ALOT of DCs 3:1 ration of DCs to OCs would be needed, and that would be even more wasteful on res.
The solution is:
-OCs back to 1200 life -OCs back to full DMG -OCs get a power boost from MCs
Basicly make the OCs worth putting up again. If you want to get past a WoL, use one of the many things you have at your command. Sieges (which are only used on maps to explote "Viel, Hara"), GL's which are suspose to be structure destroyers not ONII killers. SGs they still seem to destroy structures faster than an HMG. HMGs, they shoot mad amounts of rnds and DMG.
The Kharaa have 1 farm killer..... the ONOS. Gorges can't get close enough. Lerks are powerless, fades are useless till hive 3 vs farms. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 550 HP would not go down to anything but GL's if it's got DC support. Really, it won't. Right now, having 1000 hp isn't what keeps up OC's. It's the fact they can be healed so fast.
Also, building WoL's will cost exactly 120 res; 40 for 8 OC's, 80 for 8 DC's.
GL's should smoke WoL's.
Strong turrets aren't fun. Players vs. Players is fun. All forms of turrets should be a tatical advantage. Not something that can hold it's own.
Also, kharaa have a really good turret farm killers.
First off, if the marine team setups a massive turret farm, they will waste all of their res, GG.
Second off, keep them from setting it up is #1 prority.
Third off, basic skulks are all you need... as long as the turrets are below a quanity of 8, skulks can just munch away at area's to expose the turret fac and bring it down.
if you reduce the hp to 550 it would be a good idea to increase it's natural (non-dc) healing to compensate a little. That way it really does take a gl or sg to knock them out.
<!--QuoteBegin--Oncogene_01+Sep 25 2003, 11:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Oncogene_01 @ Sep 25 2003, 11:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another suggestion for getting worth out of OC's.
What about enhanced targeting if you put a SC near them - hence hit more (as they are scan now) AND do full damage to hvy's.
as i agree about the value of MC chambers providing extra fireing rate.
DC are the only chamber that provide a valueable FORCE multiplyer to the gameplay.
(FYI - i don't count cloaked chambers a value as most people know the maps too well and where usual OC placements are located)
Would add an extra option to the chamber choice - that paralyses public play, and might make sensory more viable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, SC's need improvements in the actual upgrades they give to the aliens themselves.
The only change that I would like to see for O-Chambers is making them 9 res instead of 10. That one slight change would make them considerably better.
They are already very useful as area denial, and a good gorge dropping O-Chambers is extremely difficult for a marine to kill, even in a marine controlled area.
Let me remind Majin that almost every alien can singlehandedly destroy turret farms.
Gorges can Bilebomb even large turret farms, because of the simple fact that no matter how big the farm is, most of the turets won't have a line of fire to hit you. Generally speaking you can expect to be hit by no more than 4 turrets at once, at a maximum. A Celerity/Regen gorge can easily run in, toss a few bombs, run away and heal, until the whole farm goes down. (Bet you never thought of Celerity as an anti-building weapon, huh?)
Lerks are great Turretfarm killers, as they are the only alien whose primary attack is ranged. Sure its not as good as an LMG, but it has essentially limitless ammo, and with regen again a Lerk can slowly take down an entire farm by himself, if its not guarded by marines.
Fades are nearly as good as Onos at this--they do half the Onos's damage, but they are much smaller, and they can blink away when low on health to avoid dying. As a Fade, I usually crouch behind the turret I am killing, so that most of the other turrets in the room hit it instead of me. This means I am only taking fire from maybe 2 turrets, even in a whole room full of them, and that little damage can be easily ignored by Regen.
Even skulks, played skillfully, can slowly whittle down a farm until they create a blindspot at the TF. They have a slight problem with electricity though, I admit.
The one factor that makes Turret Farms harder to destroy than WoLs is that the farms are usually guarded by marines, and having actual players there makes all the difference in the world. But this is as it should be. A set of O-chambers guarded by even a single ambushing skulk can wipe out large numbers of marines, just as effectively as a turret farm guarded by an HMGer can mow down waves of skulks.
I agree with most of that Cxwf but... My rants is about OCs at mid to late game being useless due to all the nerfing.
Also area limits prevent Farms of OCs only WoL, which as I said can be destroyed VERY EASY, more than ever now thanks to half DMG to HA.
Start - Mid game = OCs cost too much to place in large numbers. Mid - Late Mid game = You have the res now but now the marines have lots of ways to destroy them. Late Mid - Late game = OCs won't do anything vs HA but pis them off.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 25 2003, 04:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 25 2003, 04:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Start - Mid game = OCs cost too much to place in large numbers. Mid - Late Mid game = You have the res now but now the marines have lots of ways to destroy them. Late Mid - Late game = OCs won't do anything vs HA but pis them off. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. So do my proposed changes would do this:
Start - Mid game = OC's that are cheap, effective, and work well with gorges and skulks. Mid game - start = Very useful, due to frequency and the fact that fades should be out and about, usuing temporary OC's as insta cover. Late game = If you are still relying on turrets at this point then you deserve to lose.
I agree that your changes would make OC's considerably better, I just don't think they need to be that much better. Just making them 9 res without touching their stats would make them completely balanced to me.
Yes, late game OCs do nothing more than slow down HAs, but late game turrets do nothing more than slow down Onos too. I could put 100 turrets in one room, and despite all the lag they would cause, they could still never kill an Onos.
However, both Turrets and OCs are still useful late game simply because they slow down an enemy advance so that your soldiers can get there to defend it, and fight with it to cause extra damage/let it take some of the damage to you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cxwf+Sep 25 2003, 08:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Sep 25 2003, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree that your changes would make OC's considerably better, I just don't think they need to be that much better. Just making them 9 res without touching their stats would make them completely balanced to me.
Yes, late game OCs do nothing more than slow down HAs, but late game turrets do nothing more than slow down Onos too. I could put 100 turrets in one room, and despite all the lag they would cause, they could still never kill an Onos.
However, both Turrets and OCs are still useful late game simply because they slow down an enemy advance so that your soldiers can get there to defend it, and fight with it to cause extra damage/let it take some of the damage to you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, my idea isn't making them that much better.
Lowering OC's to 9 is still really expensive. That's basically one free OC for every 10 OC's you place. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> How is that a better deal?
I think cheaper, slightly weaker OC's would be good - less supportive of WOL's, more supportive of putting a few down next to a res node or on the 'back side' of a doorway to catch passing marines.
WOL's would still be effective but a bit easier to take down and cheaper.
ATM, I only build oc's to protect dc healing stations, (usually near a res node) since an early healing station near a marine fortified area wins games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why does everyone want to make them "weaker"? They already are weaker!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try reading posts. People want weaker (~600h), cheaper (~5 res) oc's to make them better for setting up quick barriers to prevent marine movement, giving them an identifiable distinct niche compared to turrets, which are best used to hold a specific area rather than prevent movement through an area.
5 res oc's with current health would be deadly and make gorge rushing super effective in almost every game.
I'm in complete agreement with Forlorn here. I'm sure that the 5 res, 550 hp and such would probably need a bit more balancing on the numbers bit, but the principle is sound. As a gorg, I use OCs as area denial. But right now, they just don't deny much at all. At the start of the game, I value being able to put down 3 ocs in the double res (so if one rine comes charging in, boom! 150 points of damage) much higher than being able to put down 1 oc (which does 50 dmg, and gives the rine time to kill ME and retreat... and I just lost 20 res, as my gorg is gone, and 1 lone oc is gonna die).
As for Majin - WoLs are out of style. Now that you can go Onos at 1 hive, WoL's simply get in the way. And I feel that they're just too much like Turret Farms. Spread your OCs out. No, they won't kill any HAs (though I agree that HA shouldn't take half damage for balance purposes, but for story purpose it makes sense), but any Light marines will get eaten up if they have to run past 6 or more OCs to get to their way point.
Well I, not being one for conflict wouldn't mind to test this out.
We can all agree that OCs are very unbalanced right now. They are too few and too costly in the start and too useless in the end. What my friend Forlorn wants to do it, is change it so that they are cheaper with lower health. This would make them more useful in the start, due to less cost and higher numbers, but they would be destroyed quickly as well. Late game they would be high in numbers and could be placed all over the place giving them there slow down and area denial effectiveness back. But in 2.1 they would need to be able to do full DMG. If they were only 550 health even in groups of 8 they wouldn't be useful. Unless they can do full DMG, even 8 OCs would be less effective HA then they are now, because they would be destroyed faster than current WoL. Unless they were able to make up for the lack of life by having increased streght, they would be a STUPID watse of res for a gorge.
Yeah well if you careful read what I'd suggested then I told you, they still deal 50 per spike...
By lowering their costs, you make the OC's more like what their name implies;
"Offense" Chambers. They deal damage, they don't take it. Combine offense with some "Defense" chambers, you really have an awesome combo...
And huge **** WoL's won't be really lame, once you get enough tech it would be useless, as it should be. Player vs. Player interaction is where it's at, that's by far the most fun way to play Majin.
<!--QuoteBegin--RabidWeasel+Sep 28 2003, 02:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RabidWeasel @ Sep 28 2003, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why does everyone want to make them "weaker"? They already are weaker!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try reading posts. People want weaker (~600h), cheaper (~5 res) oc's to make them better for setting up quick barriers to prevent marine movement, giving them an identifiable distinct niche compared to turrets, which are best used to hold a specific area rather than prevent movement through an area.
5 res oc's with current health would be deadly and make gorge rushing super effective in almost every game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you figure that will make a difference? Even a barrier of 4-5 OC's now doesn't hold the marines up more than 60 seconds or so, how will your weaker chambers hold them up more? They will be even less useful in the endgame when any grenade launcher can take out the entire wall with 3 shots.
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Sep 29 2003, 11:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Sep 29 2003, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--RabidWeasel+Sep 28 2003, 02:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RabidWeasel @ Sep 28 2003, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why does everyone want to make them "weaker"? They already are weaker!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try reading posts. People want weaker (~600h), cheaper (~5 res) oc's to make them better for setting up quick barriers to prevent marine movement, giving them an identifiable distinct niche compared to turrets, which are best used to hold a specific area rather than prevent movement through an area.
5 res oc's with current health would be deadly and make gorge rushing super effective in almost every game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you figure that will make a difference? Even a barrier of 4-5 OC's now doesn't hold the marines up more than 60 seconds or so, how will your weaker chambers hold them up more? They will be even less useful in the endgame when any grenade launcher can take out the entire wall with 3 shots. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, instead of 6 chambers, you would easily have 8... and 4 more somewhere else.
They would be rampant, and more often, but they would be easy as hell to destory. Please trying thinking within another world and realize it's implications.
You think that after one wall of lame is killed, there will be no more? If a gorge wanted to, he could lame up the entire map, but it wouldn't do much good other than wasted res, esp. against late game tech, like GL's, which would eat OC's for breakfest, lunch, and dinner.
Right now, OC's aren't usefull really other than hive defence or on risky offensives. No where else are they used... let's try and change that.
Siege 007 was fun last night Forlorn. Sadly my Lag spike problem is making gaming impossible for me. I am calling my cable company today and getting them to run a diagnostic on my modem. Ever sense I got my new computer my modem hasn't worked right at all. Then if thats not the problem... I don't know what the heck I will have to do... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I miss my 30 ping <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Siege 007 is a good example of a map where OCs won't stand in the way of a teched up team. (yes the lame comm was making CC walls to help his troops, but) The marines were mashing the hell out of the any OC that got in there way. These are 1000 hp OCs! I know that Siege maps are a res rich map and can't be considered a real map in any means but i'm using it as an example because of the large amount of waste that happened OCs being spammed and destroyed. Not think about a res income on a normal map, that res might take forever to come back. I don't know if they need to be weaker/cheaper. I am just not sure.
If the OC's were cheaper on that map they would have gone up 10 times as fast, and as fast as they went down you coulda put them back up with all the res you get on that map plus their reduced cost, and 8 DC's wouldn't be hard to imagine either.
Like I said eariler, they would be worse on their own but 10 times as good with support, which is everything in my oppinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 29 2003, 02:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 29 2003, 02:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They would be rampant, and more often, but they would be easy as hell to destory. Please trying thinking within another world and realize it's implications.
You think that after one wall of lame is killed, there will be no more? If a gorge wanted to, he could lame up the entire map, but it wouldn't do much good other than wasted res, esp. against late game tech, like GL's, which would eat OC's for breakfest, lunch, and dinner.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The only implications I see are twice as many chambers killed twice as quickly. Net gain...zero. To top it off they are still doing half damage to HA.
You can't set up WOL and traps "everywhere" because of the area limit on OC's. Which means, you won't have many more than you can have now because of this limitation. Besides, too many in an area and the marines can just siege it anyway. So 5 OC's at 1000 health or 10 OC's at 500 health, all dead just as quickly. Net gain...zero.
I can live with offense chambers as they are, just get rid of the half damage crap so they still have some use late game.
Comments
We did that in one of the last builds during 2.0 playtesting. It was horrible, OC spamming everwhere. You couldn't go anywhere without running into at least 6 oc's. This game is about players versus players, not player versus immobile AI structure. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I see the team has gone to great lenghts to stop that...
please... don't throw the 'I don't want to fight AIs' crap because we've all seen turretfarming, and how quick and easy it is. Why isn't there a limit on turrets? Why is there a limit on O Chambers? The defensive options are so unbalanced it's not even funny.
OCs fall faster then a huge turretfarm simply because the aliens have this lousy short-range bilebomb, the 100 res onos, and...yeah. The marines have shotguns, GLs, HA, and siege (Which is another good point. You don't like lots of O chambers and fighting Ais... so why the hell are most hives killed via AI?)
What's wrong with running into 6 o chambers everywhere? I run into 30+ turrets everywhere. The marines can take down chambers at pretty much any range, because O chambers have VERY short range. The aliens have to run up to them with their dumpy little short-ranged attacks.
We did that in one of the last builds during 2.0 playtesting. It was horrible, OC spamming everwhere. You couldn't go anywhere without running into at least 6 oc's. This game is about players versus players, not player versus immobile AI structure. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, but see, I remember that chagelog, you had only 5 res for an OC but they each had 1000+ life.
That's not what I want.
5 res, and 550 hp. This way, one <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> > O chamber. One LMG + Pistol clip, and it's down the drain.
This way, it would be more about the players rather than some dumb structures.
However, the O chambers would still be really useful if it had backup, as it would still be just as strong as it is now, and it would be cheaper meaning faster defense.
Think of the turrets from TFC. They die in seconds without support. With support, they can last the entire game without dying.
Now that is what I'd like to see.
Also, lone O chambers would still be good as when they die it will give a warning to everyone via hive sight. So lone O chambers won't be a real waste of res, as it can easily be an early warning system of sorts, as opposed to the O chambers of now which are way too expensive to use like that.
Simple, eh?
This isn't the answer <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Natural Selection is going to go from a largely revolutionary concept to a gimmicky deathmatcher with the addition of Combat. I can just see it. By this time next year, the majority of NS servers will be Combat.
Don't get me wrong, Combat is a cool idea, but you can't argue against the fact that it strips out most of what made NS so unique. The gameplay is also more 'simple' so you'll surely have more CS smacktards playing it.
Forlorn didn't you read what I posted?
550 HPs would go down in seconds.
What good would it be having a 8 chamber WoL when they are removed in seconds.
1 GL could smoke the WoL before it killed 1 person.
Whats needed is stronger OCs, not weaker ones in more numbers.
otherwise you have a alien turret farm. Every area.
that would suck! and would be SUCH A WASTE OF RES!
if your OCs go down in seconds, it would mean you need to place them back more offten. If you didn't want to have to keep placing them, you would need DCs so they could live. you would also need ALOT of DCs 3:1 ration of DCs to OCs would be needed, and that would be even more wasteful on res.
The solution is:
-OCs back to 1200 life
-OCs back to full DMG
-OCs get a power boost from MCs
Basicly make the OCs worth putting up again.
If you want to get past a WoL, use one of the many things you have at your command. Sieges (which are only used on maps to explote "Viel, Hara"), GL's which are suspose to be structure destroyers not ONII killers. SGs they still seem to destroy structures faster than an HMG. HMGs, they shoot mad amounts of rnds and DMG.
The Kharaa have 1 farm killer..... the ONOS. Gorges can't get close enough.
Lerks are powerless, fades are useless till hive 3 vs farms.
Forlorn didn't you read what I posted?
550 HPs would go down in seconds.
What good would it be having a 8 chamber WoL when they are removed in seconds.
1 GL could smoke the WoL before it killed 1 person.
Whats needed is stronger OCs, not weaker ones in more numbers.
otherwise you have a alien turret farm. Every area.
that would suck! and would be SUCH A WASTE OF RES!
if your OCs go down in seconds, it would mean you need to place them back more offten. If you didn't want to have to keep placing them, you would need DCs so they could live. you would also need ALOT of DCs 3:1 ration of DCs to OCs would be needed, and that would be even more wasteful on res.
The solution is:
-OCs back to 1200 life
-OCs back to full DMG
-OCs get a power boost from MCs
Basicly make the OCs worth putting up again.
If you want to get past a WoL, use one of the many things you have at your command. Sieges (which are only used on maps to explote "Viel, Hara"), GL's which are suspose to be structure destroyers not ONII killers. SGs they still seem to destroy structures faster than an HMG. HMGs, they shoot mad amounts of rnds and DMG.
The Kharaa have 1 farm killer..... the ONOS. Gorges can't get close enough.
Lerks are powerless, fades are useless till hive 3 vs farms. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
550 HP would not go down to anything but GL's if it's got DC support. Really, it won't. Right now, having 1000 hp isn't what keeps up OC's. It's the fact they can be healed so fast.
Also, building WoL's will cost exactly 120 res; 40 for 8 OC's, 80 for 8 DC's.
GL's should smoke WoL's.
Strong turrets aren't fun. Players vs. Players is fun. All forms of turrets should be a tatical advantage. Not something that can hold it's own.
Also, kharaa have a really good turret farm killers.
First off, if the marine team setups a massive turret farm, they will waste all of their res, GG.
Second off, keep them from setting it up is #1 prority.
Third off, basic skulks are all you need... as long as the turrets are below a quanity of 8, skulks can just munch away at area's to expose the turret fac and bring it down.
What about enhanced targeting if you put a SC near them - hence hit more (as they are scan now) AND do full damage to hvy's.
as i agree about the value of MC chambers providing extra fireing rate.
DC are the only chamber that provide a valueable FORCE multiplyer to the gameplay.
(FYI - i don't count cloaked chambers a value as most people know the maps too well and where usual OC placements are located)
Would add an extra option to the chamber choice - that paralyses public play, and might make sensory more viable.
What about enhanced targeting if you put a SC near them - hence hit more (as they are scan now) AND do full damage to hvy's.
as i agree about the value of MC chambers providing extra fireing rate.
DC are the only chamber that provide a valueable FORCE multiplyer to the gameplay.
(FYI - i don't count cloaked chambers a value as most people know the maps too well and where usual OC placements are located)
Would add an extra option to the chamber choice - that paralyses public play, and might make sensory more viable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, SC's need improvements in the actual upgrades they give to the aliens themselves.
They are already very useful as area denial, and a good gorge dropping O-Chambers is extremely difficult for a marine to kill, even in a marine controlled area.
Let me remind Majin that almost every alien can singlehandedly destroy turret farms.
Gorges can Bilebomb even large turret farms, because of the simple fact that no matter how big the farm is, most of the turets won't have a line of fire to hit you. Generally speaking you can expect to be hit by no more than 4 turrets at once, at a maximum. A Celerity/Regen gorge can easily run in, toss a few bombs, run away and heal, until the whole farm goes down. (Bet you never thought of Celerity as an anti-building weapon, huh?)
Lerks are great Turretfarm killers, as they are the only alien whose primary attack is ranged. Sure its not as good as an LMG, but it has essentially limitless ammo, and with regen again a Lerk can slowly take down an entire farm by himself, if its not guarded by marines.
Fades are nearly as good as Onos at this--they do half the Onos's damage, but they are much smaller, and they can blink away when low on health to avoid dying. As a Fade, I usually crouch behind the turret I am killing, so that most of the other turrets in the room hit it instead of me. This means I am only taking fire from maybe 2 turrets, even in a whole room full of them, and that little damage can be easily ignored by Regen.
Even skulks, played skillfully, can slowly whittle down a farm until they create a blindspot at the TF. They have a slight problem with electricity though, I admit.
The one factor that makes Turret Farms harder to destroy than WoLs is that the farms are usually guarded by marines, and having actual players there makes all the difference in the world. But this is as it should be. A set of O-chambers guarded by even a single ambushing skulk can wipe out large numbers of marines, just as effectively as a turret farm guarded by an HMGer can mow down waves of skulks.
My rants is about OCs at mid to late game being useless due to all the nerfing.
Also area limits prevent Farms of OCs only WoL, which as I said can be destroyed VERY EASY, more than ever now thanks to half DMG to HA.
Start - Mid game = OCs cost too much to place in large numbers.
Mid - Late Mid game = You have the res now but now the marines have lots of ways to destroy them.
Late Mid - Late game = OCs won't do anything vs HA but pis them off.
Mid - Late Mid game = You have the res now but now the marines have lots of ways to destroy them.
Late Mid - Late game = OCs won't do anything vs HA but pis them off. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. So do my proposed changes would do this:
Start - Mid game = OC's that are cheap, effective, and work well with gorges and skulks.
Mid game - start = Very useful, due to frequency and the fact that fades should be out and about, usuing temporary OC's as insta cover.
Late game = If you are still relying on turrets at this point then you deserve to lose.
Yes, late game OCs do nothing more than slow down HAs, but late game turrets do nothing more than slow down Onos too. I could put 100 turrets in one room, and despite all the lag they would cause, they could still never kill an Onos.
However, both Turrets and OCs are still useful late game simply because they slow down an enemy advance so that your soldiers can get there to defend it, and fight with it to cause extra damage/let it take some of the damage to you.
Yes, late game OCs do nothing more than slow down HAs, but late game turrets do nothing more than slow down Onos too. I could put 100 turrets in one room, and despite all the lag they would cause, they could still never kill an Onos.
However, both Turrets and OCs are still useful late game simply because they slow down an enemy advance so that your soldiers can get there to defend it, and fight with it to cause extra damage/let it take some of the damage to you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, my idea isn't making them that much better.
Lowering OC's to 9 is still really expensive. That's basically one free OC for every 10 OC's you place. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> How is that a better deal?
WOL's would still be effective but a bit easier to take down and cheaper.
ATM, I only build oc's to protect dc healing stations, (usually near a res node) since an early healing station near a marine fortified area wins games.
Just cheaper and take out the half damage stuff.
A marine in heavy armor can go from 0 to 290 in just a few seconds with a welder, which in my opinion is another problem altogether.
Try reading posts. People want weaker (~600h), cheaper (~5 res) oc's to make them better for setting up quick barriers to prevent marine movement, giving them an identifiable distinct niche compared to turrets, which are best used to hold a specific area rather than prevent movement through an area.
5 res oc's with current health would be deadly and make gorge rushing super effective in almost every game.
As for Majin - WoLs are out of style. Now that you can go Onos at 1 hive, WoL's simply get in the way. And I feel that they're just too much like Turret Farms. Spread your OCs out. No, they won't kill any HAs (though I agree that HA shouldn't take half damage for balance purposes, but for story purpose it makes sense), but any Light marines will get eaten up if they have to run past 6 or more OCs to get to their way point.
-Jag
We can all agree that OCs are very unbalanced right now. They are too few and too costly in the start and too useless in the end. What my friend Forlorn wants to do it, is change it so that they are cheaper with lower health. This would make them more useful in the start, due to less cost and higher numbers, but they would be destroyed quickly as well. Late game they would be high in numbers and could be placed all over the place giving them there slow down and area denial effectiveness back. But in 2.1 they would need to be able to do full DMG. If they were only 550 health even in groups of 8 they wouldn't be useful.
Unless they can do full DMG, even 8 OCs would be less effective HA then they are now, because they would be destroyed faster than current WoL. Unless they were able to make up for the lack of life by having increased streght, they would be a STUPID watse of res for a gorge.
THATS MY POINT.
By lowering their costs, you make the OC's more like what their name implies;
"Offense" Chambers. They deal damage, they don't take it. Combine offense with some "Defense" chambers, you really have an awesome combo...
And huge **** WoL's won't be really lame, once you get enough tech it would be useless, as it should be. Player vs. Player interaction is where it's at, that's by far the most fun way to play Majin.
Try reading posts. People want weaker (~600h), cheaper (~5 res) oc's to make them better for setting up quick barriers to prevent marine movement, giving them an identifiable distinct niche compared to turrets, which are best used to hold a specific area rather than prevent movement through an area.
5 res oc's with current health would be deadly and make gorge rushing super effective in almost every game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you figure that will make a difference? Even a barrier of 4-5 OC's now doesn't hold the marines up more than 60 seconds or so, how will your weaker chambers hold them up more? They will be even less useful in the endgame when any grenade launcher can take out the entire wall with 3 shots.
Try reading posts. People want weaker (~600h), cheaper (~5 res) oc's to make them better for setting up quick barriers to prevent marine movement, giving them an identifiable distinct niche compared to turrets, which are best used to hold a specific area rather than prevent movement through an area.
5 res oc's with current health would be deadly and make gorge rushing super effective in almost every game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you figure that will make a difference? Even a barrier of 4-5 OC's now doesn't hold the marines up more than 60 seconds or so, how will your weaker chambers hold them up more? They will be even less useful in the endgame when any grenade launcher can take out the entire wall with 3 shots. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, instead of 6 chambers, you would easily have 8... and 4 more somewhere else.
They would be rampant, and more often, but they would be easy as hell to destory. Please trying thinking within another world and realize it's implications.
You think that after one wall of lame is killed, there will be no more? If a gorge wanted to, he could lame up the entire map, but it wouldn't do much good other than wasted res, esp. against late game tech, like GL's, which would eat OC's for breakfest, lunch, and dinner.
Right now, OC's aren't usefull really other than hive defence or on risky offensives. No where else are they used... let's try and change that.
Sadly my Lag spike problem is making gaming impossible for me.
I am calling my cable company today and getting them to run a diagnostic on my modem. Ever sense I got my new computer my modem hasn't worked right at all. Then if thats not the problem... I don't know what the heck I will have to do... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I miss my 30 ping <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Siege 007 is a good example of a map where OCs won't stand in the way of a teched up team. (yes the lame comm was making CC walls to help his troops, but) The marines were mashing the hell out of the any OC that got in there way. These are 1000 hp OCs! I know that Siege maps are a res rich map and can't be considered a real map in any means but i'm using it as an example because of the large amount of waste that happened OCs being spammed and destroyed. Not think about a res income on a normal map, that res might take forever to come back. I don't know if they need to be weaker/cheaper. I am just not sure.
Like I said eariler, they would be worse on their own but 10 times as good with support, which is everything in my oppinion.
You think that after one wall of lame is killed, there will be no more? If a gorge wanted to, he could lame up the entire map, but it wouldn't do much good other than wasted res, esp. against late game tech, like GL's, which would eat OC's for breakfest, lunch, and dinner.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only implications I see are twice as many chambers killed twice as quickly. Net gain...zero. To top it off they are still doing half damage to HA.
You can't set up WOL and traps "everywhere" because of the area limit on OC's. Which means, you won't have many more than you can have now because of this limitation. Besides, too many in an area and the marines can just siege it anyway. So 5 OC's at 1000 health or 10 OC's at 500 health, all dead just as quickly. Net gain...zero.
I can live with offense chambers as they are, just get rid of the half damage crap so they still have some use late game.
I agree