<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 30 2003, 02:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 30 2003, 02:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Sep 29 2003, 10:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Sep 29 2003, 10:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Sep 29 2003, 09:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Sep 29 2003, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> God is subject to rules. he is perfect, therefore he cannot Sin. He cannot contradict his own nature
Let me put this another way. If i spent some time creating some plasticine models, obody could tell me i was wrong to destroy them could they? they are mine, so i can do what i like. If one of them looks bad, i can screw it up and start again.
We are mere plasticine models compared to God. he created us, he can destoy us. The reason you cant accept that is you dont like the feeling that someone has ultimate control over you <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But if he has ultimate control over us, and hates sin, why doesn't he mearly keep us from sinning? If he has ultimate control over us then he would be controling weather or not we suffer for eternity. Don't you see? by that logic God is a child playing with toys and we mean nothing to him, we are just his playthings to send to hell or heaven at will. In other words, God has **** you from the outset so you really didn't have any choice. And I don't see how anybody could believe in that kind of God. It contradicts his very nature.
On a side note I wish Marine01 would show up so we could have some semi-sane arguments for a change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> because (as has been said MANY times before) he wants us to have free will, and it is this free will that means evil still exists.
He could keep us from sinning but that would mean we dont have free will. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So god has ultimate control over me, but wants me to have free will. So then when I express that will in a way he doesn't like he will wait till I die and then condemn me suffer for eternity.... why? Does it amuse this perfect, loving god to torture people? Even if it does I suppose thats ok isn't it? I'm just a clay model after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So god has ultimate control over me, but wants me to have free will. So then when I express that will in a way he doesn't like he will wait till I die and then let me suffer for eternity.... why? does it amuse this perfect loving god to torture people? Even if it does I suppose thats ok isn't it? I'm just a clay model after all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whats your problem with that? God has laid down rules, you chose to break them, you will be punished. God is eternal, so everything (even his punishment) that comes from him must be eternal. He would much rather you be in heaven with him, he has provided you with a way to get there, the desicion is now up to you. The buck stops here. the ball is in your court.
lets say you are driving through a strange country, and you ask directions to a place. The person gives you perfectly clear and simple instructions to get there. If you then decide not to follow them, and you never arrive at your destination, you end up many miles from it, you cant balme the guy who gave you the directions. <b>you chose</b> not to follow them, it is entirely your fault
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So god has ultimate control over me, but wants me to have free will. So then when I express that will in a way he doesn't like he will wait till I die and then let me suffer for eternity.... why? does it amuse this perfect loving god to torture people? Even if it does I suppose thats ok isn't it? I'm just a clay model after all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whats your problem with that? God has laid down rules, you chose to break them, you will be punished. God is eternal, so everything (even his punishment) that comes from him must be eternal. He would much rather you be in heaven with him, he has provided you with a way to get there, the desicion is now up to you. The buck stops here. the ball is in your court.
lets say you are driving through a strange country, and you ask directions to a place. The person gives you perfectly clear and simple instructions to get there. If you then decide not to follow them, and you never arrive at your destination, you end up many miles from it, you cant balme the guy who gave you the directions. <b>you chose</b> not to follow them, it is entirely your fault <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What is the point in punishment if not to correct the activity one is being punished for? Revenge? doesn't sound very perfect and loving to me.
People deny God right up until they die - thier punishment is not delayed at all.
People who do what God wants have to wait until they die to be fully rewarded, just like people who are not have to wait until they die to be fully punished.
(notice I said fully - when Adam and Eve first sinned, God didnt say, "OK, i will wait until you die before i punish you" he started right there and then. He gave the woman pain during childbirth, he made the man have to work for his food with the sweat of his brow. He cursed the earth - the whole of nature is suffering because of man's sin
All the earthquakes and floods and typhoons are all man's punishment for sinning.
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 29 2003, 05:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 29 2003, 05:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 29 2003, 03:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 29 2003, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Come on Hive, you went after Boggles original statement after I had clarified it below. Murder is a form of stealing, instead of taking a material possesion you take a life that isnt yours. God claims that life, all life, is his, and he can darn well do what he wants with it, including taking it away. Murder - to steal someones life. God pwns your life, he cant steal it from himself, and thus is not murdering when he kills humans. And he doesnt kill for the hell of it either - he is working to a plan. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So if we're all just God's property, to do with as he pleases, then the entire concept of free will really is just an illusion, as our free will can be stolen from us at any time on God's whim. And if we are without true free will, yet we are not made to be happy withought it, then either way God is a complete a-hole. You cannot justify god's morality on this. God made us imperfect on purpose, God made us unhappy on purpose, God gave us this great gift of free will (even though we are not completely free, we are still his property to be recalled at any time) and if we ever use this gift of free will to do anything he doesn't like, we are given another great gift, ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!!!! Wow what fun! And I also love how people say to me "Well he's god so he has the power and can make the rules, if you disobey it's your own fault." This reaction mystifies me. If a hastage taker kills one of his hostages, do people justify him by saying "Well he had the gun so he made the rules, and it's the hostages fault for disobeying"? Heck no. God is no different from a simple thug. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It would seem that we have a critical disagreement over the definition of free will, so let me try and clarify how I see it.
Free will is complete control over your own thoughts and actions. God doesnt take that away from you when he kills you. It isnt stolen when you go to hell.
The rest of your arguement is justified using the same qoute I have used multiple times in this thread, and since I have yet to see it be refuted properly:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A being is not morally culpable in allowing preventable evil if he has a "morally sufficient reason" for so doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, we can't understand god cause he's so much better then us, so I'm sure he created evil for a reason<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I am saying that it is entirely possible that God does have a plan, a morally sufficient reason, and if that is in fact the case, then he is absolved of all guilt for allowing evil. In the same manner, its entirely possible he DOESNT have a good reason, and you guys are right. But it cannot be denied that their is a possibility that he does.
Prove to me, show me, that God doesnt have a morally sufficient reason. Thats a rhetorical question because there is no reasonable answer to that other than "Well I guess if he exists then it is possible he has a reason I am unaware of".
This is why Theists claim they have won the arguement from evil debate. Anti-theists have yet to come up with a decent answer to the above. They agree with all the premisis' behind it, and as such they have to agree with the statement above.
To put it in different terms, you are walking along the dock, I see a massive crate slip off a ship and come falling for your head. So I run at you, tackle you and knock you out of the way. Now when I hit you will full force, you dont like it. You are not happy with it at all, and you dont understand what would have driven me to do such a thing. You know/believe I'm a really nice guy who doesnt wish you any harm, and in fact is a very peaceable person, but I've just axed you. You cant understand why, if I claim to be a peaceful person, I would allow the preventable evil of me tackling you to occur.
However, I know what you do not, that unless I allowed the evil of you being tackled, you would be crushed and killed. Even worse would happen to you. I see the bigger picture and acted out of the greatest kindness possible. In that analogy, I am God and you are Man. I see the greater picture, you dont, you see here and now and you dont like it.
Hell is not a punishment skulkbait. Its a consequence. A very unpleasent consequence, but its not a punishment. God cannot accept a sinner to be with him, and thus creates a place for the sinner where He is not. And its not terribly pleasent, given that all good things stem from God.
Hawkeye you cant dismiss Twex's source as merely opinion, I know the wording is difficult, but he is actually making a good point there. Proving that God cannot do the undoable is unhelpful for pointing out how God contradicts himself. He is confined by rules, if he makes them for himself. He has claimed that he cannot lie, and thus has just there confined himself. The statement God can do anything is actually false. The statement God can do anything unless it contradicts his nature is true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Free will is complete control over your own thoughts and actions. God doesnt take that away from you when he kills you. It isnt stolen when you go to hell.
The rest of your arguement is justified using the same qoute I have used multiple times in this thread, and since I have yet to see it be refuted properly:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A being is not morally culpable in allowing preventable evil if he has a "morally sufficient reason" for so doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, we can't understand god cause he's so much better then us, so I'm sure he created evil for a reason<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I am saying that it is entirely possible that God does have a plan, a morally sufficient reason, and if that is in fact the case, then he is absolved of all guilt for allowing evil. In the same manner, its entirely possible he DOESNT have a good reason, and you guys are right. But it cannot be denied that their is a possibility that he does.
Prove to me, show me, that God doesnt have a morally sufficient reason. Thats a rhetorical question because there is no reasonable answer to that other than "Well I guess if he exists then it is possible he has a reason I am unaware of".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Therin lies a problem, neither of us can prove the other wrong, so what are we to do? I could try and disprove it, like say by bringing up the holocaust and asking you what possible motive god could have for allowing that, but you could come up with a thousand equally rediculous reasons that are, nonetheless, possible. So it seems we are at an impass.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hell is not a punishment skulkbait. Its a consequence. A very unpleasent consequence, but its not a punishment. God cannot accept a sinner to be with him, and thus creates a place for the sinner where He is not. And its not terribly pleasent, given that all good things stem from God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does God not simply destroy the soul? Surely that is more humane then to allow it to suffer forever. Then again maybe there is "morally suffiecient" reason for god not to destroy the soul that I we can't percieve. So again we would be at an impass.
EDIT: This is normally the point where one of us assumes the role of the man in black and the other Vicini and we play out the iocane powder bit. It would seem that I would be the man in black in this instance (since I said "Then we are at an impass"), so I win <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 30 2003, 09:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 30 2003, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lets say you are driving through a strange country, and you ask directions to a place. The person gives you perfectly clear and simple instructions to get there. If you then decide not to follow them, and you never arrive at your destination, you end up many miles from it, you cant balme the guy who gave you the directions. <b>you chose</b> not to follow them, it is entirely your fault <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is faulty comparison.
Here's the right one:
You are driving through a foreign country. You stop and 5 guys are standing there. Now each one of them gives you different kind of instructions, everyone saying he is right. Now you have to decide which one to follow or were they all just screwing you? At least 4 of them were so can you be sure one of them was actually being honest?
I would give a finger to all of them and trust my own instincts. If later on I follow the wrong path, then its my fault, and even that one guy who was being honest can't say "I told you" when there was 4 other men, just as convincing next to him.
fine, so there are many other religions pointing the "way" But christianity is different. Most other religions state you can save yourself. Christianity says you cannot. an even better analogy would be this:
You are driving through a foreign country. You stop and 5 guys are standing there. Now four of them gives you different kind of instructions, everyone saying he is right. The fifth offers to get in your car with you and show you the way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My point is, however, that the concept of punishing someone for eternity makes absolutely no sense. Punishment is typically done to stop bad behavior, but if your being punished for eternity, you don't have the chance to stop any behavior. Therefor God is punishing you for basically no reason, because it will accomplish nothing.
I wont post this same thing in the other thread because marine came back and is making a decent argument again.
This post has been edited by SkulkBait on Sep 30 2003, 10:17 AM
as Marine01 said, hell is more of a consequence God cannot send you anywhere else, you are full of sin and he hates sin. He cannot have sin in his perfect place so he throws it into the firery pit for eternity
the choice is up to you, you wont be able to say that God is being unfair. no one will
I have no problems seeing Hell as a punishment. Like all punishments it also functions as a deterrant, but frankly, behavioural correction is not the main reason why we should punish criminals. The main reason is to satisfy the crime victims and demonstrate that order triumphs over chaos.
Revenge is only evil when the crime victims themselves deal it out excessively. But when an impartial judge makes criminals pay for their transgressions according to clear rules which the criminals knew, the punishment is just. Hitler burns in Hell not for some metaphysical reason, but because he <i>deserves</i> every minute of it.
Precisely Skulk, we are at a complete impass. As one philosopher claimed:
"The Theists have a philosophical castle in which they can hide. We can make suggestions, present hypotheticals, and rationalise all we want, and they can dash out of their castle and take snipes at our arguement, but at the end of the day, when pressured, they will always be able to run back to their castle and slam the door in our faces with the statement "Who can know the mind of God""
However, I think this impass leans more on my side than yours <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. It is now impossible for you to claim that God is contradicting himself using the Argument From Evil. It is possible for me to claim that he isnt, or at least there is a way in which he could be acting that absolves him from guilt. Its an impass alright, but I like to think it helps me more.
I'd be interested to hear you concluding statement to sum up exactly how you feel on the issue of God contradicting himself with the existence of Evil. And its not just me trying to rub noses in anything, I'd just be interested to hear what you think now.
Ehehehe I love your example Boggle, its exactly as I feel about Christ. However, as with all analogies, it is imperfect. That guy who wants to get in your car and show you could be waiting for the first opportunity to kill you, take your wallet and flog your car - and I there are a few religions that I suspect would do just that, but I'm not going to name names because I cant back myself up. Analogies are great for helping someone understand a concept thats a little advanced, but you run the risk of nitpicking answers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
To nitpick and improve upon Dreads example - Five roads, four lead to a cliff that you wont see until your over it. Five guys, each at the head of each road, encouraging you down it and promising its gonna rock. I sure as hell aint gonna give em the finger and wing it. There is too much at stake here. I would study them, find out everything I could about them, and make a very careful choice.
Side note - you realise that if there is an immortal and all powerful being that desperately wants you to come to know him, and you set out searching for him, then you SHOULD find him. If he is upholding his end of the bargain, then he will reveal himself to you. "Seek and you will find, knock and I will answer". Couple that with "he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep (time) to gain what he cannot lose (eternal relationship)", and it seems worthwhile to me.
Hrrmmmmm.... But what about Joe Donut eater who stays faithful to his wife, loves his kids, pays his taxes but doesnt believe in Christ. He suffers the exact same punishment, he burns for the precise amount of time. God see's people in a pass and fail system - there is no punishment based on extent of evil. Unless you are a supporter of the idea of a (insert name of pre-heaven prehell place where you work off sin as believed by the famous apologetic C.S Lewis)
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 30 2003, 12:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 30 2003, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> fine, so there are many other religions pointing the "way" But christianity is different. Most other religions state you can save yourself. Christianity says you cannot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I can't save myself, why do I even bother trying? And how does it make christianity better than other religions? And I'm sure there are also several other religions that makes more sense and also say that you can't save yourself?
Ok, now I'm de-railing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are driving through a foreign country. You stop and 5 guys are standing there. Now four of them gives you different kind of instructions, everyone saying he is right. The fifth offers to get in your car with you and show you the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't allow some weird creep to get in to my car. Sure, he can be just a helpful guy...who is going to rob you. So even if he is a nice fellow, unless he's a total jerk, he can't blame you for not taking him in to your car.
If he doesn't understand normal logic, then I'm glad I didn't take him in my car in the first place. I'd rather drive in the wrong direction than risk getting my car stolen/fooled by a jerk. But that's just me though. That's the way I was born, raised and that's the way I'll probably die. It's unlikely that anyone can convince me otherwise.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Sep 30 2003, 06:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Sep 30 2003, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 30 2003, 12:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 30 2003, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> fine, so there are many other religions pointing the "way" But christianity is different. Most other religions state you can save yourself. Christianity says you cannot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I can't save myself, why do I even bother trying? And how does it make christianity better than other religions? And I'm sure there are also several other religions that makes more sense and also say that you can't save yourself?
Ok, now I'm de-railing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are driving through a foreign country. You stop and 5 guys are standing there. Now four of them gives you different kind of instructions, everyone saying he is right. The fifth offers to get in your car with you and show you the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't allow some weird creep to get in to my car. Sure, he can be just a helpful guy...who is going to rob you. So even if he is a nice fellow, unless he's a total jerk, he can't blame you for not taking him in to your car.
If he doesn't understand normal logic, then I'm glad I didn't take him in my car in the first place. I'd rather drive in the wrong direction than risk getting my car stolen/fooled by a jerk. But that's just me though. That's the way I was born, raised and that's the way I'll probably die. It's unlikely that anyone can convince me otherwise. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> AFAIK, the other major religions - buddism and islam are all saved by works.
Buddhism is "if you do good enough deeds for long enough, you will go to nirvana" Islam (i think) is "if your good ddes outwiegh your bad deeds, you will go to heaven"
There is also a religion that teaches if you die in a holy war you go to heaven (which is just alcohol and beautiful virgins) (if that ist mind control, i dont know what is)
[ok, Marine01, you were right. Looks like i over estimated the general maturity of the forumites]
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 30 2003, 06:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 30 2003, 06:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Precisely Skulk, we are at a complete impass. As one philosopher claimed:
"The Theists have a philosophical castle in which they can hide. We can make suggestions, present hypotheticals, and rationalise all we want, and they can dash out of their castle and take snipes at our arguement, but at the end of the day, when pressured, they will always be able to run back to their castle and slam the door in our faces with the statement "Who can know the mind of God""
However, I think this impass leans more on my side than yours <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. It is now impossible for you to claim that God is contradicting himself using the Argument From Evil. It is possible for me to claim that he isnt, or at least there is a way in which he could be acting that absolves him from guilt. Its an impass alright, but I like to think it helps me more. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if it really helps your side more though Marine.
While arguing "who can know the mind of God" might provide an avenue of escape to the AFE problem, what does it say of the credibility of the Christian belief of God ? Not a whole lot IMO.
I could in theory create my own religion today, describing god and so forth. If anyone raises any questions about why this and that happens, I can just say "who can know the mind of god". In other words this line of thought fails to provide credibility to my religion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 30 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 30 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not to burst anybody's bubble, but the question has not been answered.
Why does evil exist if God is so powerful, all-knowing, and good? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> because he has a sufficient moral reason to let it continue
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 30 2003, 02:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 30 2003, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 30 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 30 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not to burst anybody's bubble, but the question has not been answered.
Why does evil exist if God is so powerful, all-knowing, and good? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> because he has a sufficient moral reason to let it continue <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok what is His sufficent moral reason, and if you do not know how are you sure He has one?
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 30 2003, 08:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 30 2003, 08:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [ok, Marine01, you were right. Looks like i over estimated the general maturity of the forumites] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if I should but I feel very insulted now. My post surely wasn't that immature. Oh, but I said something you don't agree on?
And what makes you think that the _right_ religion is a major one? Or that it's an old religion?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is also a religion that teaches if you die in a holy war you go to heaven (which is just alcohol and beautiful virgins) (if that ist mind control, i dont know what is)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not like christianity hasn't controlled minds...not because it's said in the holy book, but because people can twist the bible to say anything. How about holy wars? And you still didn't answer my main question: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I can't save myself, why do I even bother trying?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I don't need to do <b>anything</b> to get in to heaven, like in other false religions, then everybody goes to heaven! But wait, it doesn't work like that. You have to believe and follow certain rules. Christianity, taken literally from the bible, isn't any better than other religions. One could make a softer version out of Budhism but they are more hard core believers and they don't do like most christians do; create versions of religion that are easier to follow.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Posted: Sep 30 2003, 09:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Posted: Sep 30 2003, 09:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok what is His sufficent moral reason, and if you do not know how are you sure He has one? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think no one knows. That's why they call it faith(=you believe in something that no one can prove wrong or right).
That whole argument about Christianity being the right relegion because it has been around for 2000 years doesn't really hold water. Paganism was the first relegion conceived by man and being one I can tell you it's still around today, but I don't see Pagans damning all other faiths because theirs is the true one.
And if he can't provide any proof that God has a sufficent moral reason for creating evil then why can he state it as fact? This is a discussion forum, if I can make a point and it can be shot done purely on faith what's the point? By that logic anyone can claim anything to be true with no shred of evidence.
Christians will admit God made evil, they will admit God hates evil, they will admit God could stop evil, but they won't admit it's hypocritical of Him not to. Seems faith sort of sabotages logic when it becomes convienient.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Sep 30 2003, 10:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Sep 30 2003, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is a discussion forum, if I can make a point and it can be shot done purely on faith what's the point? By that logic anyone can claim anything to be true with no shred of evidence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why discussions on religions are usually pointless. No one can convince the other side to change his opinion anyway.
We are debating because it's, supposedly, <b>fun</b>. Now go enjoy your discussion, that's an order <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: And it's fun to prove others wrong and humiliate them. It's fun to be right. In religion topics, how ever there is no right or wrong. Everyone right in their own minds so I guess we are all having fun?
Edit edit: Don't pretend humiliating isn't fun. You love to humiliate your friends in ns.
Hrrmmmmm.... But what about Joe Donut eater who stays faithful to his wife, loves his kids, pays his taxes but doesnt believe in Christ. He suffers the exact same punishment, he burns for the precise amount of time. God see's people in a pass and fail system - there is no punishment based on extent of evil. Unless you are a supporter of the idea of a (insert name of pre-heaven prehell place where you work off sin as believed by the famous apologetic C.S Lewis) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't it seem a bit... well... irrational of your perfect God to judge people in such black and white terms? I mean, Joe Donught Eater here has done nothing wrong but deny christ. Its such a tiny little thing compared to, well, just about any evil act you can think of.
Yeah, skulk's right. Take a guy named Bill who has never even heard of Christ or christianity (and yes there are lots of people like this that exist in the world). According to standard christian values, Bill goes to hell, and likewise, so does Joe. These people have done nothing wrong. In fact, they might have saved many people's lives throughout their lifetimes. However, it is written in the bible that if you don't know God and Jesus, you go to hell. Would a good god allow a decent person to go to hell because they didn't know he existed? Seems a little umm.. what's the word.. egotistical.
Any answers given have been ignored or pigeonholed by those unwillingly to listen.
My beliefs follow along these lines:
The fall of Lucifer (or Satan as some name him) makes Lucifer no less God's creature. God will not simply unmake anything, especially something that used to be one of his most favored creations. A parent may expel their child from their house for being unruly, but no loving parent would willing kill their own child, no matter how imperfect. That's a bit too Draconian for even the brimstone and fire camp as far as I'm concerned.
As time passed, separation from God's love drove Lucifer even further in his transgressions, and God fully banished him from His creation, leaving Lucifer's realm to be the consequence for those who chose to deny Him. God continues to let evil into this world as a test and rite of passage for His children. True love of God leaves no man true free will, as it puts them beyond the ability to commit certain acts against their fellow man. Look back to the references of the Book of Job that I pointed out. No one has yet to sufficiently address God's desire to test the faith of the righteous.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Sep 30 2003, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Sep 30 2003, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The fall of Lucifer (or Satan as some name him) makes Lucifer no less God's creature. God will not simply unmake anything, especially something that used to be one of his most favored creations. A parent may expel their child from their house for being unruly, but no loving parent would willing kill their own child, no matter how imperfect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No loving parent (who isn't mentally ill) would kill their children as a form of punishment, on that I agree. But parents have been known to kill their children to prevent their suffering (this was done in the holocaust).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> all I can say is that God is perectly fair and just, so what he does with them will be the right thing <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here we go again.... God is perfect, so no matter what he does it is perfect, so theres obviously no way I can argue against it is there? Why must you insist on arguing with faith (as your argument assumes that God exists, that God is perfect, ect.) when it has been said many times that it is pointless to even have a discussion if you are going to do so?
As for the book of Job (one of the more interesting I must say), i'll get the ball rolling: If God is omniscient, why did he need to tests Job's faith? Did he need to prove something to satan? What point could that have as satan cannot repent (and wouldn't if he could, and God knows it)?
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Sep 30 2003, 11:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Sep 30 2003, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> all I can say is that God is perectly fair and just, so what he does with them will be the right thing <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here we go again.... God is perfect, so no matter what he does it is perfect, so theres obviously no way I can argue against it is there? Why must you insist on arguing with faith (as your argument assumes that God exists, that God is perfect, ect.) when it has been said many times that it is pointless to even have a discussion if you are going to do so? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That is because i honestly dont know. i doubt anyone on these forums knows. They can hazard a guess, but they dont know. that is why we have faith, because there are lots of things we dont know.
This is all very confusing. I think the going theory is that everything used to be good, except for Lucifer (or whatever x religion calls him). At this time, man had free will and lived in paradise. Man made the choice, tempted or no, to gain knowledge of both good and evil.... whereas before they had knowledge of only good.
At that time, they chose evil (or rather that which was not solely good) so they were no longer qualified to live in paradise... because they chose both. So their pool pass was revoked.
This puts them in a dilemma. God may care whether or not you listen, or whether or not you are good, but that does not mean he'll keep you under his wing regardless. So evil happens because you choose to ignore that which is good, and are then no longer protected by God. Lucifer or what have you, represents the opposite of the spectrum. Even if he wanted to he simply cannot be good. He can lie about it or pretend but it always has to be for some purpose in line with his nature. Same with God really if you think about it.
Religion may very well just be a description of some fundamental force that we have no ability to comprehend. When you look at religious beliefs the world around they are strikingly similar. If people were once all huddled together that could be an explanation, but would they really share the same stories or rules across the board? You can really just /shrug and say "Truth is truth" or something like that. Maybe we'll find out eventually, maybe not.
I think if there is an afterlife, not a single human being who has ever lived will get there and hear the words "Hey, you were totally right! Ding ding ding!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one has yet to sufficiently address God's desire to test the faith of the righteous. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 questions arise from that.
Why can't the all-knowing god just *know* if you are worthy for heaven? Why the hell does God care if his own creations need testing? What does the omnipotent God need with "faithful" followers?
Umm Lucifer used to be an angel and favored among God above all others, humans didn't exist at the same time as angels did, God grew bored of just angels so he made man, he saw man was lonely so he made woman from man, evil didn't exist yet, Lucifer grew jealous of Adam and Eve and convinced other angels that God had abondned them and waged war against Heaven, Lucifer and the rebels were banished to Hell, Adam and Eve were then decieved into eating from the tree of knowledge, basically before that they had no knowledge of anything, I guess being completely ignorant of all things is the equilvent of paradise, the Sin they were guilty of was gaining the knowledge of God, which made them aware of shame, jealousy, hate, etc., then God banished Adam and Eve from the Graden of Eden.
Anyhow thats a parapharse of where Sin and Evil come from, the problem is God being all knowing knew it would all happen and therefore knowingly created both sin and evil. Also being all knowing he didn't have any need to test the faith of the rightous because he already knew who was truly faithful, yadda yadda, all these points have been brought up but refuted, so the argument is kinda stuck.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People deny God right up until they die - thier punishment is not delayed at all.
People who do what God wants have to wait until they die to be fully rewarded, just like people who are not have to wait until they die to be fully punished.
(notice I said fully - when Adam and Eve first sinned, God didnt say, "OK, i will wait until you die before i punish you" he started right there and then. He gave the woman pain during childbirth, he made the man have to work for his food with the sweat of his brow. He cursed the earth - the whole of nature is suffering because of man's sin
All the earthquakes and floods and typhoons are all man's punishment for sinning. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note of sarcasm, so if I sin, God is going to cripple me for life, disfigure me and my children, then strike me down with cancer? If God loved me and punished me like this so that I would change, I would not call that love, but unfair justice that wasn't exacted to his "freedom-of-choice" policy.
Comments
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is subject to rules. he is perfect, therefore he cannot Sin. He cannot contradict his own nature
Let me put this another way. If i spent some time creating some plasticine models, obody could tell me i was wrong to destroy them could they? they are mine, so i can do what i like. If one of them looks bad, i can screw it up and start again.
We are mere plasticine models compared to God. he created us, he can destoy us. The reason you cant accept that is you dont like the feeling that someone has ultimate control over you <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if he has ultimate control over us, and hates sin, why doesn't he mearly keep us from sinning? If he has ultimate control over us then he would be controling weather or not we suffer for eternity. Don't you see? by that logic God is a child playing with toys and we mean nothing to him, we are just his playthings to send to hell or heaven at will. In other words, God has **** you from the outset so you really didn't have any choice. And I don't see how anybody could believe in that kind of God. It contradicts his very nature.
On a side note I wish Marine01 would show up so we could have some semi-sane arguments for a change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because (as has been said MANY times before) he wants us to have free will, and it is this free will that means evil still exists.
He could keep us from sinning but that would mean we dont have free will. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So god has ultimate control over me, but wants me to have free will. So then when I express that will in a way he doesn't like he will wait till I die and then condemn me suffer for eternity.... why? Does it amuse this perfect, loving god to torture people? Even if it does I suppose thats ok isn't it? I'm just a clay model after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So god has ultimate control over me, but wants me to have free will. So then when I express that will in a way he doesn't like he will wait till I die and then let me suffer for eternity.... why? does it amuse this perfect loving god to torture people? Even if it does I suppose thats ok isn't it? I'm just a clay model after all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whats your problem with that? God has laid down rules, you chose to break them, you will be punished. God is eternal, so everything (even his punishment) that comes from him must be eternal. He would much rather you be in heaven with him, he has provided you with a way to get there, the desicion is now up to you. The buck stops here. the ball is in your court.
lets say you are driving through a strange country, and you ask directions to a place. The person gives you perfectly clear and simple instructions to get there. If you then decide not to follow them, and you never arrive at your destination, you end up many miles from it, you cant balme the guy who gave you the directions. <b>you chose</b> not to follow them, it is entirely your fault
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So god has ultimate control over me, but wants me to have free will. So then when I express that will in a way he doesn't like he will wait till I die and then let me suffer for eternity.... why? does it amuse this perfect loving god to torture people? Even if it does I suppose thats ok isn't it? I'm just a clay model after all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whats your problem with that? God has laid down rules, you chose to break them, you will be punished. God is eternal, so everything (even his punishment) that comes from him must be eternal. He would much rather you be in heaven with him, he has provided you with a way to get there, the desicion is now up to you. The buck stops here. the ball is in your court.
lets say you are driving through a strange country, and you ask directions to a place. The person gives you perfectly clear and simple instructions to get there. If you then decide not to follow them, and you never arrive at your destination, you end up many miles from it, you cant balme the guy who gave you the directions. <b>you chose</b> not to follow them, it is entirely your fault <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the point in punishment if not to correct the activity one is being punished for? Revenge? doesn't sound very perfect and loving to me.
People deny God right up until they die - thier punishment is not delayed at all.
People who do what God wants have to wait until they die to be fully rewarded, just like people who are not have to wait until they die to be fully punished.
(notice I said fully - when Adam and Eve first sinned, God didnt say, "OK, i will wait until you die before i punish you" he started right there and then. He gave the woman pain during childbirth, he made the man have to work for his food with the sweat of his brow. He cursed the earth - the whole of nature is suffering because of man's sin
All the earthquakes and floods and typhoons are all man's punishment for sinning.
So if we're all just God's property, to do with as he pleases, then the entire concept of free will really is just an illusion, as our free will can be stolen from us at any time on God's whim. And if we are without true free will, yet we are not made to be happy withought it, then either way God is a complete a-hole. You cannot justify god's morality on this. God made us imperfect on purpose, God made us unhappy on purpose, God gave us this great gift of free will (even though we are not completely free, we are still his property to be recalled at any time) and if we ever use this gift of free will to do anything he doesn't like, we are given another great gift, ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!!!! Wow what fun! And I also love how people say to me "Well he's god so he has the power and can make the rules, if you disobey it's your own fault." This reaction mystifies me. If a hastage taker kills one of his hostages, do people justify him by saying "Well he had the gun so he made the rules, and it's the hostages fault for disobeying"? Heck no. God is no different from a simple thug. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would seem that we have a critical disagreement over the definition of free will, so let me try and clarify how I see it.
Free will is complete control over your own thoughts and actions. God doesnt take that away from you when he kills you. It isnt stolen when you go to hell.
The rest of your arguement is justified using the same qoute I have used multiple times in this thread, and since I have yet to see it be refuted properly:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A being is not morally culpable in allowing preventable evil if he has a "morally sufficient reason" for so doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, we can't understand god cause he's so much better then us, so I'm sure he created evil for a reason<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I am saying that it is entirely possible that God does have a plan, a morally sufficient reason, and if that is in fact the case, then he is absolved of all guilt for allowing evil. In the same manner, its entirely possible he DOESNT have a good reason, and you guys are right. But it cannot be denied that their is a possibility that he does.
Prove to me, show me, that God doesnt have a morally sufficient reason. Thats a rhetorical question because there is no reasonable answer to that other than "Well I guess if he exists then it is possible he has a reason I am unaware of".
This is why Theists claim they have won the arguement from evil debate. Anti-theists have yet to come up with a decent answer to the above. They agree with all the premisis' behind it, and as such they have to agree with the statement above.
To put it in different terms, you are walking along the dock, I see a massive crate slip off a ship and come falling for your head. So I run at you, tackle you and knock you out of the way. Now when I hit you will full force, you dont like it. You are not happy with it at all, and you dont understand what would have driven me to do such a thing. You know/believe I'm a really nice guy who doesnt wish you any harm, and in fact is a very peaceable person, but I've just axed you. You cant understand why, if I claim to be a peaceful person, I would allow the preventable evil of me tackling you to occur.
However, I know what you do not, that unless I allowed the evil of you being tackled, you would be crushed and killed. Even worse would happen to you. I see the bigger picture and acted out of the greatest kindness possible. In that analogy, I am God and you are Man. I see the greater picture, you dont, you see here and now and you dont like it.
Hell is not a punishment skulkbait. Its a consequence. A very unpleasent consequence, but its not a punishment. God cannot accept a sinner to be with him, and thus creates a place for the sinner where He is not. And its not terribly pleasent, given that all good things stem from God.
Hawkeye you cant dismiss Twex's source as merely opinion, I know the wording is difficult, but he is actually making a good point there. Proving that God cannot do the undoable is unhelpful for pointing out how God contradicts himself. He is confined by rules, if he makes them for himself. He has claimed that he cannot lie, and thus has just there confined himself. The statement God can do anything is actually false. The statement God can do anything unless it contradicts his nature is true.
The rest of your arguement is justified using the same qoute I have used multiple times in this thread, and since I have yet to see it be refuted properly:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A being is not morally culpable in allowing preventable evil if he has a "morally sufficient reason" for so doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, we can't understand god cause he's so much better then us, so I'm sure he created evil for a reason<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I am saying that it is entirely possible that God does have a plan, a morally sufficient reason, and if that is in fact the case, then he is absolved of all guilt for allowing evil. In the same manner, its entirely possible he DOESNT have a good reason, and you guys are right. But it cannot be denied that their is a possibility that he does.
Prove to me, show me, that God doesnt have a morally sufficient reason. Thats a rhetorical question because there is no reasonable answer to that other than "Well I guess if he exists then it is possible he has a reason I am unaware of".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Therin lies a problem, neither of us can prove the other wrong, so what are we to do? I could try and disprove it, like say by bringing up the holocaust and asking you what possible motive god could have for allowing that, but you could come up with a thousand equally rediculous reasons that are, nonetheless, possible. So it seems we are at an impass.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Hell is not a punishment skulkbait. Its a consequence. A very unpleasent consequence, but its not a punishment. God cannot accept a sinner to be with him, and thus creates a place for the sinner where He is not. And its not terribly pleasent, given that all good things stem from God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does God not simply destroy the soul? Surely that is more humane then to allow it to suffer forever. Then again maybe there is "morally suffiecient" reason for god not to destroy the soul that I we can't percieve. So again we would be at an impass.
EDIT:
This is normally the point where one of us assumes the role of the man in black and the other Vicini and we play out the iocane powder bit. It would seem that I would be the man in black in this instance (since I said "Then we are at an impass"), so I win <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That is faulty comparison.
Here's the right one:
You are driving through a foreign country. You stop and 5 guys are standing there. Now each one of them gives you different kind of instructions, everyone saying he is right. Now you have to decide which one to follow or were they all just screwing you? At least 4 of them were so can you be sure one of them was actually being honest?
I would give a finger to all of them and trust my own instincts. If later on I follow the wrong path, then its my fault, and even that one guy who was being honest can't say "I told you" when there was 4 other men, just as convincing next to him.
You are driving through a foreign country. You stop and 5 guys are standing there. Now four of them gives you different kind of instructions, everyone saying he is right. The fifth offers to get in your car with you and show you the way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My point is, however, that the concept of punishing someone for eternity makes absolutely no sense. Punishment is typically done to stop bad behavior, but if your being punished for eternity, you don't have the chance to stop any behavior. Therefor God is punishing you for basically no reason, because it will accomplish nothing.
I wont post this same thing in the other thread because marine came back and is making a decent argument again.
This post has been edited by SkulkBait on Sep 30 2003, 10:17 AM
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as Marine01 said, hell is more of a consequence God cannot send you anywhere else, you are full of sin and he hates sin. He cannot have sin in his perfect place so he throws it into the firery pit for eternity
the choice is up to you, you wont be able to say that God is being unfair. no one will
Revenge is only evil when the crime victims themselves deal it out excessively. But when an impartial judge makes criminals pay for their transgressions according to clear rules which the criminals knew, the punishment is just. Hitler burns in Hell not for some metaphysical reason, but because he <i>deserves</i> every minute of it.
"The Theists have a philosophical castle in which they can hide. We can make suggestions, present hypotheticals, and rationalise all we want, and they can dash out of their castle and take snipes at our arguement, but at the end of the day, when pressured, they will always be able to run back to their castle and slam the door in our faces with the statement "Who can know the mind of God""
However, I think this impass leans more on my side than yours <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. It is now impossible for you to claim that God is contradicting himself using the Argument From Evil. It is possible for me to claim that he isnt, or at least there is a way in which he could be acting that absolves him from guilt. Its an impass alright, but I like to think it helps me more.
I'd be interested to hear you concluding statement to sum up exactly how you feel on the issue of God contradicting himself with the existence of Evil. And its not just me trying to rub noses in anything, I'd just be interested to hear what you think now.
Ehehehe I love your example Boggle, its exactly as I feel about Christ. However, as with all analogies, it is imperfect. That guy who wants to get in your car and show you could be waiting for the first opportunity to kill you, take your wallet and flog your car - and I there are a few religions that I suspect would do just that, but I'm not going to name names because I cant back myself up. Analogies are great for helping someone understand a concept thats a little advanced, but you run the risk of nitpicking answers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
To nitpick and improve upon Dreads example - Five roads, four lead to a cliff that you wont see until your over it. Five guys, each at the head of each road, encouraging you down it and promising its gonna rock. I sure as hell aint gonna give em the finger and wing it. There is too much at stake here. I would study them, find out everything I could about them, and make a very careful choice.
Side note - you realise that if there is an immortal and all powerful being that desperately wants you to come to know him, and you set out searching for him, then you SHOULD find him. If he is upholding his end of the bargain, then he will reveal himself to you. "Seek and you will find, knock and I will answer". Couple that with "he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep (time) to gain what he cannot lose (eternal relationship)", and it seems worthwhile to me.
Hrrmmmmm.... But what about Joe Donut eater who stays faithful to his wife, loves his kids, pays his taxes but doesnt believe in Christ. He suffers the exact same punishment, he burns for the precise amount of time. God see's people in a pass and fail system - there is no punishment based on extent of evil. Unless you are a supporter of the idea of a (insert name of pre-heaven prehell place where you work off sin as believed by the famous apologetic C.S Lewis)
i believe the word you are looking for is Purgatory
If I can't save myself, why do I even bother trying? And how does it make christianity better than other religions? And I'm sure there are also several other religions that makes more sense and also say that you can't save yourself?
Ok, now I'm de-railing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are driving through a foreign country. You stop and 5 guys are standing there. Now four of them gives you different kind of instructions, everyone saying he is right. The fifth offers to get in your car with you and show you the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't allow some weird creep to get in to my car. Sure, he can be just a helpful guy...who is going to rob you. So even if he is a nice fellow, unless he's a total jerk, he can't blame you for not taking him in to your car.
If he doesn't understand normal logic, then I'm glad I didn't take him in my car in the first place. I'd rather drive in the wrong direction than risk getting my car stolen/fooled by a jerk. But that's just me though. That's the way I was born, raised and that's the way I'll probably die. It's unlikely that anyone can convince me otherwise.
If I can't save myself, why do I even bother trying? And how does it make christianity better than other religions? And I'm sure there are also several other religions that makes more sense and also say that you can't save yourself?
Ok, now I'm de-railing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are driving through a foreign country. You stop and 5 guys are standing there. Now four of them gives you different kind of instructions, everyone saying he is right. The fifth offers to get in your car with you and show you the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't allow some weird creep to get in to my car. Sure, he can be just a helpful guy...who is going to rob you. So even if he is a nice fellow, unless he's a total jerk, he can't blame you for not taking him in to your car.
If he doesn't understand normal logic, then I'm glad I didn't take him in my car in the first place. I'd rather drive in the wrong direction than risk getting my car stolen/fooled by a jerk. But that's just me though. That's the way I was born, raised and that's the way I'll probably die. It's unlikely that anyone can convince me otherwise. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK, the other major religions - buddism and islam are all saved by works.
Buddhism is "if you do good enough deeds for long enough, you will go to nirvana"
Islam (i think) is "if your good ddes outwiegh your bad deeds, you will go to heaven"
There is also a religion that teaches if you die in a holy war you go to heaven (which is just alcohol and beautiful virgins) (if that ist mind control, i dont know what is)
[ok, Marine01, you were right. Looks like i over estimated the general maturity of the forumites]
Why does evil exist if God is so powerful, all-knowing, and good?
"The Theists have a philosophical castle in which they can hide. We can make suggestions, present hypotheticals, and rationalise all we want, and they can dash out of their castle and take snipes at our arguement, but at the end of the day, when pressured, they will always be able to run back to their castle and slam the door in our faces with the statement "Who can know the mind of God""
However, I think this impass leans more on my side than yours <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. It is now impossible for you to claim that God is contradicting himself using the Argument From Evil. It is possible for me to claim that he isnt, or at least there is a way in which he could be acting that absolves him from guilt. Its an impass alright, but I like to think it helps me more. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if it really helps your side more though Marine.
While arguing "who can know the mind of God" might provide an avenue of escape to the AFE problem, what does it say of the credibility of the Christian belief of God ? Not a whole lot IMO.
I could in theory create my own religion today, describing god and so forth. If anyone raises any questions about why this and that happens, I can just say "who can know the mind of god". In other words this line of thought fails to provide credibility to my religion.
Why does evil exist if God is so powerful, all-knowing, and good? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
because he has a sufficient moral reason to let it continue
Why does evil exist if God is so powerful, all-knowing, and good? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because he has a sufficient moral reason to let it continue <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok what is His sufficent moral reason, and if you do not know how are you sure He has one?
I don't know if I should but I feel very insulted now. My post surely wasn't that immature. Oh, but I said something you don't agree on?
And what makes you think that the _right_ religion is a major one? Or that it's an old religion?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is also a religion that teaches if you die in a holy war you go to heaven (which is just alcohol and beautiful virgins) (if that ist mind control, i dont know what is)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not like christianity hasn't controlled minds...not because it's said in the holy book, but because people can twist the bible to say anything. How about holy wars? And you still didn't answer my main question:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I can't save myself, why do I even bother trying?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I don't need to do <b>anything</b> to get in to heaven, like in other false religions, then everybody goes to heaven! But wait, it doesn't work like that. You have to believe and follow certain rules. Christianity, taken literally from the bible, isn't any better than other religions. One could make a softer version out of Budhism but they are more hard core believers and they don't do like most christians do; create versions of religion that are easier to follow.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Posted: Sep 30 2003, 09:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Posted: Sep 30 2003, 09:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok what is His sufficent moral reason, and if you do not know how are you sure He has one? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think no one knows. That's why they call it faith(=you believe in something that no one can prove wrong or right).
And if he can't provide any proof that God has a sufficent moral reason for creating evil then why can he state it as fact? This is a discussion forum, if I can make a point and it can be shot done purely on faith what's the point? By that logic anyone can claim anything to be true with no shred of evidence.
Christians will admit God made evil, they will admit God hates evil, they will admit God could stop evil, but they won't admit it's hypocritical of Him not to. Seems faith sort of sabotages logic when it becomes convienient.
That's why discussions on religions are usually pointless. No one can convince the other side to change his opinion anyway.
We are debating because it's, supposedly, <b>fun</b>. Now go enjoy your discussion, that's an order <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: And it's fun to prove others wrong and humiliate them. It's fun to be right. In religion topics, how ever there is no right or wrong. Everyone right in their own minds so I guess we are all having fun?
Edit edit: Don't pretend humiliating isn't fun. You love to humiliate your friends in ns.
Hrrmmmmm.... But what about Joe Donut eater who stays faithful to his wife, loves his kids, pays his taxes but doesnt believe in Christ. He suffers the exact same punishment, he burns for the precise amount of time. God see's people in a pass and fail system - there is no punishment based on extent of evil. Unless you are a supporter of the idea of a (insert name of pre-heaven prehell place where you work off sin as believed by the famous apologetic C.S Lewis) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't it seem a bit... well... irrational of your perfect God to judge people in such black and white terms? I mean, Joe Donught Eater here has done nothing wrong but deny christ. Its such a tiny little thing compared to, well, just about any evil act you can think of.
All I can say is that God is perectly fair and just, so what he does with them will be the right thing
My beliefs follow along these lines:
The fall of Lucifer (or Satan as some name him) makes Lucifer no less God's creature. God will not simply unmake anything, especially something that used to be one of his most favored creations. A parent may expel their child from their house for being unruly, but no loving parent would willing kill their own child, no matter how imperfect. That's a bit too Draconian for even the brimstone and fire camp as far as I'm concerned.
As time passed, separation from God's love drove Lucifer even further in his transgressions, and God fully banished him from His creation, leaving Lucifer's realm to be the consequence for those who chose to deny Him. God continues to let evil into this world as a test and rite of passage for His children. True love of God leaves no man true free will, as it puts them beyond the ability to commit certain acts against their fellow man. Look back to the references of the Book of Job that I pointed out. No one has yet to sufficiently address God's desire to test the faith of the righteous.
No loving parent (who isn't mentally ill) would kill their children as a form of punishment, on that I agree. But parents have been known to kill their children to prevent their suffering (this was done in the holocaust).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> all I can say is that God is perectly fair and just, so what he does with them will be the right thing <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here we go again.... God is perfect, so no matter what he does it is perfect, so theres obviously no way I can argue against it is there? Why must you insist on arguing with faith (as your argument assumes that God exists, that God is perfect, ect.) when it has been said many times that it is pointless to even have a discussion if you are going to do so?
As for the book of Job (one of the more interesting I must say), i'll get the ball rolling: If God is omniscient, why did he need to tests Job's faith? Did he need to prove something to satan? What point could that have as satan cannot repent (and wouldn't if he could, and God knows it)?
Here we go again.... God is perfect, so no matter what he does it is perfect, so theres obviously no way I can argue against it is there? Why must you insist on arguing with faith (as your argument assumes that God exists, that God is perfect, ect.) when it has been said many times that it is pointless to even have a discussion if you are going to do so? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because i honestly dont know. i doubt anyone on these forums knows. They can hazard a guess, but they dont know. that is why we have faith, because there are lots of things we dont know.
At that time, they chose evil (or rather that which was not solely good) so they were no longer qualified to live in paradise... because they chose both. So their pool pass was revoked.
This puts them in a dilemma. God may care whether or not you listen, or whether or not you are good, but that does not mean he'll keep you under his wing regardless. So evil happens because you choose to ignore that which is good, and are then no longer protected by God. Lucifer or what have you, represents the opposite of the spectrum. Even if he wanted to he simply cannot be good. He can lie about it or pretend but it always has to be for some purpose in line with his nature. Same with God really if you think about it.
Religion may very well just be a description of some fundamental force that we have no ability to comprehend. When you look at religious beliefs the world around they are strikingly similar. If people were once all huddled together that could be an explanation, but would they really share the same stories or rules across the board? You can really just /shrug and say "Truth is truth" or something like that. Maybe we'll find out eventually, maybe not.
I think if there is an afterlife, not a single human being who has ever lived will get there and hear the words "Hey, you were totally right! Ding ding ding!"
3 questions arise from that.
Why can't the all-knowing god just *know* if you are worthy for heaven?
Why the hell does God care if his own creations need testing?
What does the omnipotent God need with "faithful" followers?
Anyhow thats a parapharse of where Sin and Evil come from, the problem is God being all knowing knew it would all happen and therefore knowingly created both sin and evil. Also being all knowing he didn't have any need to test the faith of the rightous because he already knew who was truly faithful, yadda yadda, all these points have been brought up but refuted, so the argument is kinda stuck.
People who do what God wants have to wait until they die to be fully rewarded, just like people who are not have to wait until they die to be fully punished.
(notice I said fully - when Adam and Eve first sinned, God didnt say, "OK, i will wait until you die before i punish you" he started right there and then. He gave the woman pain during childbirth, he made the man have to work for his food with the sweat of his brow. He cursed the earth - the whole of nature is suffering because of man's sin
All the earthquakes and floods and typhoons are all man's punishment for sinning. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note of sarcasm, so if I sin, God is going to cripple me for life, disfigure me and my children, then strike me down with cancer?
If God loved me and punished me like this so that I would change, I would not call that love, but unfair justice that wasn't exacted to his "freedom-of-choice" policy.