Somalia 93
Lukin
Join Date: 2003-08-23 Member: 20098Members
Join Date: 2003-08-23 Member: 20098Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">and all related events since...</div> 10 years ago today, October 3rd, 1993. 2 160th SOAR MH-60's were shot down over Bakara Market in Mogadishu, Somalia. Members of the 75th Ranger Regiment and 1st Special Forces Operation Detachment Delta AKA Delta Force conducted one of modern warfares most recognized CSAR (Combat Search and Rescue) Many know this as "Black Hawk Down."
18 members of the elite force known as Task Force Ranger paid the ultimate price.
10 years later, after the populare movie by Ridley Scott and Jerry Bruckheimer, a large torrent of Black Hawk Down mods have swept into gaming. All of these portray the events on Oct. 3rd.
But why only Oct. 3rd? And why only Deltas, Rangers, and 160th SOAR?
There were at least 2 more units at Mogadishu that day.
There was a small unit of Navy SEALs present on that day.
Also, another unit, this one saved many Ranger and Delta lives. The 10th Mountain. My uncle was in the 10th Mountain and was at Mogadishu that day. In Bakara Market. He fought along side the Deltas, Rangers, and Pakistani UN Peacekeepers.
Why do you think that these units, SEALs and 10th Mountain, have not been portrayed in these Mods. And how come they only portray the events of October 3rd and 4th?
18 members of the elite force known as Task Force Ranger paid the ultimate price.
10 years later, after the populare movie by Ridley Scott and Jerry Bruckheimer, a large torrent of Black Hawk Down mods have swept into gaming. All of these portray the events on Oct. 3rd.
But why only Oct. 3rd? And why only Deltas, Rangers, and 160th SOAR?
There were at least 2 more units at Mogadishu that day.
There was a small unit of Navy SEALs present on that day.
Also, another unit, this one saved many Ranger and Delta lives. The 10th Mountain. My uncle was in the 10th Mountain and was at Mogadishu that day. In Bakara Market. He fought along side the Deltas, Rangers, and Pakistani UN Peacekeepers.
Why do you think that these units, SEALs and 10th Mountain, have not been portrayed in these Mods. And how come they only portray the events of October 3rd and 4th?
Comments
...and why would I care about 18 Rangers when <b>hundreds</b> or even thousands of somalis died? Those lives were just as precious and I'm pretty tired of people forgetting them and only concentrating on the soldiers. A lot of civilians died too. Soldiers life is always less valuable than civilians, because soldier is trained to kill and die. He has accepted the concequences of him grabbing a gun. How ever civilians should never be punished for the actions of the armed forces. This means both Somali and US side.
I believe over 300,000+ somalians had been starved to death before the little raid known as "Black Hawk Down"
And plus this isn't about who died. It's about who is recognized in various BHD themed material.
In war, people die. Most people think that civilian casualties should be minimized, but a disturbing number seem to believe that they can be eliminated entirely. As engagements move towards urban scenarios, civilian casualties will increase. In order to stand up to the U.S., many major strategies lean towards this tactic. Few armies in the world could stand an assault on any other type of ground, and probably none for an extended period of time.
I think the movie and the mods just picked one of the most visible actions of the engagement. Personally, I like mods that are not limited like that but /shrug. When it comes down to it, they can just skin the uniforms in. Most folks take gameplay over story so it's just flash.
I tried Savage for a bit, but it is nowhere near as good as NS. It trades variety for better graphics.
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Maybe for the same reasons that there have been thousands of books and many documentaries and films on Australian soldiers fighting in Gallipolli, but hardly any on Australian soldiers on the western front (where we suffered 40,000 of our 60,000 casualties). The downing of the Blackhawks and the stranding of US soldiers there has a sort of appeal to it. A few men against thousands, fighting against all odds and winning. I mean, if you were going to make a movie, showing a bunch of SEALs heading in and slaughtering a bunch of Somalian soldiers doesn't really make for good theatre, or reading. Whereas a few man, fighting to save their comrades and against impossible odds makes for good theatre and reading. Same with Gallipolli: why show endless images of trench warfare when you can look at the impossible situation of the Gallipoli soldiers, trapped on the bottom of high cliffs with hardly any cover against numerically superiour foes, and yet even then not giving up.
Unfortunatly, when it comes to theatre and books, directors and authors are drawn to such events. There's been a million movies and books on Gettysberg but a fraction of that on any other Civil War battle. There are just some parts of conflicts that people prefer to see.
This does not demeen or diminish the sacrifices and/or bravery of those people who are overlooked. But it does mean that you shouldn't be waiting for "M1A2 Tank Ammunition Loader Simulator!" or games of that sort.
LOL who didn't see that one coming <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
going ON TOPIC, the easy answer is average joe mod maker didn't look deeper into the conflict. They probably went off the movie pretty much, and there was hardly any mention if any of SEALs, and the ones who the movie centered on were the Rangers, 160th, and delta. So thats what they centered on. Course, we could always ask them....
LOL who didn't see that one coming <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, sorry about that. It's just that this kind of things really get me pumped up..."OMG, I broke I fingernail!" When you have a guy with no legs next to you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kheras+Posted on Oct 4 2003, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kheras @ Posted on Oct 4 2003, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or one could say that a soldier's life is worth more than a civilian's because the soldier chooses to lay their on the line. All depends on the point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Often civilians do just as much as soldiers in war. The whole country would crumble if everyone would be a soldier. Also everyone can't be soldier: women, children, old people, handicapped etc.
Yeah, so if you feel bad about your fingernail AT ALL then your a greedy selfish bastage right? You absolutely don't care about the guys legs, and you should stop breathing because how DARE you feel bad about a fingernail when someone doesn't have any legs!
How DARE that guy with no legs feel bad about having no legs when someones walking around with no arms or legs. How DARE that guy with no arms or legs feels bad about not having arms or legs when there's someone out there in the world with no eyes....
and so on.
Yeah, so if you feel bad about your fingernail AT ALL then your a greedy selfish bastage right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it would be kind of polite to ask the guy with no legs if he's doing fine or at least notice him.
"Hot damn! I broke my finger nail"
"Hey, I'm bleeding to death here..."
"Broken finger nail can really hurt, you know what I mean?"
"My legs are broken and this truck you parked on me kind of presses my chest. Would you mind..."
"What are you whining about?! I'm the one in pain here"
"I think I start feeling a little whoozy. Maybe you could just toss me that cellular phone you took after you drove over me."
"Hey, maybe I can glue this finger nail back! I'd better call my beaty parlor and reserve a time for manicure"
"I'm seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel!"
"Oh hi Jim! Yeah, nothing special today. Just broke my hot damn finger nail"
I think you get the point <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now to be ontopic: hollywood films don't always care about what really happened. They are meant to make money and directors and writers have to exaggerate, twist, cut and add some things, even in movies based on real life situations. In my humble opinion it's not crucial if some military segment was left out. It was an entertaining movie, though boring from time time(No lies, I fell asleep the first time watched it. Second time I managed to watch it through and it was an 'ok' film).
And I never intended to emphasize this death-count thing this much <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> It just really grabs my eyes when I see someone mention something like that, in associated in this kind of situation. It just felt like Lukin was saying the worst thing that happened that day was the death of 18 rangers. It felt like no one cared about those somalis, like the heaviest loss in that combat was 18 men. I'm just reminding people of some other losses. Sorry for de-railing on my part. Continue your discussion as if I never interfered <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
*bows and steps back*
Yeah, we feel for the somalis. If we didn't say anything, it doesn't mean we don't care. But god man, do we have to say: "Man we lost 18 guys there, that sucks. Oh, by the way, I give my humble condolances to the hundreds of somalis who died, most of which were trying to kill our guys. And I feel sorry for the civilians who died. And in fact, the civilians who died before we got there. And the civilians who died all over the world. And their pets. And all the people who died that day from natural causes....." every single time we decide to mourn one person?
I mean we can do that if you want. But damn where does it stop man? You do this over and over; here, the september 11th thread, and so on.
You get tired that we don't mention the others? Frankly, too bad man. We're not going to mention the dead except for the dead we are talking about at that particular time. But rest assured, that does not mean we are selfish **** who don't give a damn about the other people who died man.
I mean, I could go to your grandmothers funeral and say "Why are you mourning dread! Thousands died today!" Then perhaps you would know how we feel every time you say it.
Yeah, so if you feel bad about your fingernail AT ALL then your a greedy selfish bastage right? You absolutely don't care about the guys legs, and you should stop breathing because how DARE you feel bad about a fingernail when someone doesn't have any legs!
How DARE that guy with no legs feel bad about having no legs when someones walking around with no arms or legs. How DARE that guy with no arms or legs feels bad about not having arms or legs when there's someone out there in the world with no eyes....
and so on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL who didn't see that one coming <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
1. Choice of ammo
2. Urban combat
3. A few others
1. The choice of ammo for the rangers was poor, green jacketed aemoe piercing rounds. Mistake. No somalians WORE body armor, so when a soldier shot a somalian soldier, it usually went right through him, caused minimal damage, and it could have hit a civilian in the head that was behinde him.
2. This also deals with ammo choice. The fighting took place in urban territory, but the houses had very thin walls in some places. The result? Stray bullets went through the walls, and hit civilians.
3. Somolian civilians even picked up soldiers weapons, or threw rocks at passing soldiers. US military doctrin says, if a civilian picks up a weapon, or threatens you or a fellow soldier with an object or weapon, he/she is automatically assignhed a soldier definition, and can be shot at in a hostile zone.
Somalia was really just a bad situation all around. It's hard to pick off just the shooters in a crowd. No one was expecting what happened, people got stuck in a situation and had to deal with it.
And.... where is this mod if there is one? I'd like to check it out some time. And are there none as good as NS and DoD? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
P.S. So you will agree that a soldier's life is not less valuable than a citizens, because they are equal? I hope so, because saying otherwise in either direction is quite an insult.
This is the standard issue 5.56mm round in the military.
Depending on barrel length, under 200 meters, this round fragments heavily producing similar if not more damage to the target than the larger OPFOR 7.62 x 39. In other words, it does not stay as one chunk like the 7.62 x 39, meaning any peices that leave the body have reduced inertia and penetrating capabilities. Past that distance, muzzle velocity reduces enough that the round fails to reliably fragment and it passes through the target. Under 10m, the round may overpenetrate the target.
M993/M995 black tip is the armor piercing 5.56mm and was not used as far as I know. I believe it has a tungsten subcaliber penetrator.
2) 7.62mm x 39 is the standard round the OPFOR was using in somolia, with their SKS's and AK series or weapons. There were many more of these guns in the engagement (hundreds if not thousands). In addition, the paramilitary forces and civilians using these guns have poorer aim in general than the regular army forces on the coalition side. This round also penetrates much more than the 5.56mm standard issue round.
To put it another way, although it is possible that civilians died due to the overpenetration of the rounds used by NATO forces, it is far more likely that the OPFOR weapons were doing the majority of this.
3) It is true that if a civilian picks up a weapon they are now a combatant and shooting them is a viable recourse if your comrades are threatened.
However, I'd like to point out that just beause you pick up a rock does not mean you will die. In Israel for instance, standard procedure is to button up (close the hatches) and ignore rock throwers. Every once in a while, some stupid kid jumps on a tank and trys to take off ammo belts and such, and gets themselves shot. The media loves this.... but I digress.
Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that civilians do get killed and it's unfortunate when it happens.
However, I'd like to point out that just beause you pick up a rock does not mean you will die. In Israel for instance, standard procedure is to button up (close the hatches) and ignore rock throwers. Every once in a while, some stupid kid jumps on a tank and trys to take off ammo belts and such, and gets themselves shot. The media loves this.... but I digress.
Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that civilians do get killed and it's unfortunate when it happens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
slightly OT, but those people I know that have served or cross-trained in Israel will also point out that the only times you see palestinians throwing rocks instead of shooting are the times when cameras are pointed their direction. That's not just from Israeli service members, but Americans that I know that have been over there....
Yes, I'm really sorry. I don't have control over myself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Maybe I'm old fashioned or something but when we are talking about one single war or conflict or battle, I just think that it would be _nice_ to mention both sides. If we are talking about WW2, we should honor everyone who died then, not just soldiers from one country. If my whole family(me included) has died, I think it would be nice to mention the whole family in the ceremony instead of just me. If we are talking about a conflict where 2 thousand men died, it would be nice to mention them all.
I never meant to emphasize this thing so much but the whole thing got carried away here. Even now I know I shouldn't post this because it's blatantly offtopic, but I just can't let you go on with the idea that I'm a hypocrit exaggerating little things and ruining a discussion on purpose.
I promise I <b>try</b> to control myself in the future <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
To put it another way, although it is possible that civilians died due to the overpenetration of the rounds used by NATO forces, it is far more likely that the OPFOR weapons were doing the majority of this.
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Don't forget the 7.62x51mm of the G3 which was the prefered weapon of the Somalis. Along with the M16A1. All these weapons can be aquired at a very low price. The only reason the AK was used so much is because it was cheaper and more readily availible. My Uncle says that everytime they would fall a Somali with a G3, another would rush out, ignoring all fire, drop his current weapon, what ever it maybe, and grab the G3.