there you go <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
All esuna said there is he likes IE, and I can't blame him. Opera's hand gesture thingies are nifty but the rest of it is horrible; it looks nasty (don't even get me started on skins), its got a banner which none of the others have and like esuna I <b>haaaaate</b> windows within windows whether they're 'tabulated' (in esuna's case) or not. You might like them, but then again you're not using IE, the people who use IE don't. Everything is right with the world <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm currently now using Mozilla Firebird, and i like it. I'm yet to test any of the things that brought up errors before (Which were CSS1 border settings and so on, i can't remember exactly, but i have a page that tests them somewhere in the depths of my HDD) but as it stands, they've improved it from the last time i used it.
I'm gonna DL the newest firebird Mozilla client when it comes out, ETA Oct. 14.
No point in DL'ing it now when I'll just have to redownload it in a week. Like picking up 1.04 to learn the game, only to have to relearn it in a week with 2.0.
A quick blanket statement to everyone who doesn't see the need to switch from IE:
Don't.
Seriously, you have to actually be interested in it in order to switch. If you're not interested, you ignore features you might like and you might just turn yourself off more. If you're interested, great. If you're not, well, you're not. Don't trouble yourself. Until and unless IE craps out on you or frustrates you, you will probably not enjoy an alternative browser.
Oh, and to everyone who uses Firebird, I highly recommend going into Tools/Options/Extensions and downloading whatever catches your fancy. They can do some wonderful things (although I haven't gotten Shockwave to work, would appreciate help with that). I don't see why people don't like tabbed browsing, I prefer having an extra toolbar over having a very cluttered-up taskbar... but I guess if you don't use multiple sites much it isn't as appealing. Oh well.
Skulkbait, one thing, don't assume that just because people like IE that they are microsoft Fan's.
I use IE, and when I run adaware, it kills pop-up cookies. The only time I have gotten frustrated with IE is when I had to upgrade, then I got windows XP. I had to use Mozilla for a while, and I didn't really find it that intresting. I couldn't transfer favorites, pop-up's still popped up, and it took 2 minutes to load. Compare that to my IE's 5 seconds. My mouse scroll wheel didn't work and I couldn't use the arrow keys to scroll down. That ticked me off. That said
Unless you actually find an article from a Tech Magazine, posted on a .org or a well-known website (say, Slashdot or something like that), I'm not gonna take any "information" you post to be 100% factual. Because it's the web, and people don't have to be truthful. So that Ashitaka-san website might just be a load of baloney.
<!--QuoteBegin--SmokeNova+Oct 9 2003, 02:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmokeNova @ Oct 9 2003, 02:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulkbait, one thing, don't assume that just because people like IE that they are microsoft Fan's.
I use IE, and when I run adaware, it kills pop-up cookies. The only time I have gotten frustrated with IE is when I had to upgrade, then I got windows XP. I had to use Mozilla for a while, and I didn't really find it that intresting. I couldn't transfer favorites, pop-up's still popped up, and it took 2 minutes to load. Compare that to my IE's 5 seconds. My mouse scroll wheel didn't work and I couldn't use the arrow keys to scroll down. That ticked me off. That said
Unless you actually find an article from a Tech Magazine, posted on a .org or a well-known website (say, Slashdot or something like that), I'm not gonna take any "information" you post to be 100% factual. Because it's the web, and people don't have to be truthful. So that Ashitaka-san website might just be a load of baloney. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read Gadzuko's post above and understand why I keep saying: Wanna keep using IE? Good for you.
As for standards, the Web Standards Project's opinion: <a href='http://www.webstandards.org/opinion/' target='_blank'>http://www.webstandards.org/opinion/</a>
I really don't feel like doing the work to find more information at this time so if that isn't good enough for you, tough.
BTW, you must have been using a really, really really, old version of Mozilla to not have it import IE favorites. And you must have never bothered to check the settings to turn on pop-up blocking.
Oh yeah, and if you consider the WaSP to be biased, look at their front page.
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 8 2003, 12:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 8 2003, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I never understood why people smart enough to know that they can replace their browser still use IE. It violaates web standards, includes no built in popup blocking, and only works on one platform (ok 2 if you count the mac, but I recall reading that the Mac version is more standards compliant then the Windows version). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Mac version supports alpha-channel PNG files out of the box, perfectly, no fiddling around. It also handles things much closer to the quality that Mozilla handles them, actually.
Remember, MacIE was developed seperately, by a different team than WinIE, <b><i>from scratch</i></b> for the Mac.
I use opera for my web browsing needs and have been for quite a while now. I have to admit the only reason I switched was that a year or so ago IE stopped working for some randomly inexplicable reason and after all my attempts to fix it failed I typed "web browsers" into cnet and opera came up top. I will never go back. Those of you whose major complaint seems to be that they don't like window-in-window browsing...there is an option to have each window have its own toolbar...like IE, why you would dislike WIW is beyond me as it means I can can browse mutiple webpages without cluttering up my desktop and minimizing opera minimizes all my webpages at once. Also spending (too much) time on IRC means you're going to come across nasty little people who give you urls to various pages that open a bazillion other pages at once, most of these sites are either automatically blocked by operas built in popup stopper or you just press the little X in the top corner and blam all the windows go at once.
(Check out early morning precoffee grammatically terrible post)
Being that you follow the One Microsoft Way™ you wouldn't see advantages (other than built in popup-blocking and working CSS2). For those of us who like to have a choice in what software we use Open Standards are very important. IE doesn't follow standards so I don't support it, and I don't recommend its use.
Some examples of features in other browsers I don't see in IE (some of these are extentions available through mozilla's extention site):
Mouse gestures - They rock. Tabbed Browsing - Rocks, if your into that sort of thing. Flash Click to View - Stops nasty flash adds from wasting my prescious bandwidth. Built in popup blocking
Some or all of those may be available as plugins to IE, I wouldn't know.
In short. If you like IE and have no desire to support open standards, keep using IE. If you want to support open standards, or one of these features interests you, use another borwser. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess for my purposes IE works just fine, there are a million free popup killers on the net, I happen to use a good one, the rest of the stuff has no interest for me. I've never had IE not "support" a feature on anyones web site. I've also never had it not understand file extentions. It handles secure and non secure content perfectly, and the whole open source code thing can be equated with socialism, and since we have the military (capitalist based organization) to thank for the internet in general I dont feel the "open sourcecode" argument is valid. MS makes good product, they have the money and power to keep making them better, if people would stop badmouthing/suing them we would all be better off
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=10&t=47624&st=0' target='_blank'>Clicky</a> for all of you free source code junkies
<!--QuoteBegin--::esuna::+Oct 8 2003, 03:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (::esuna:: @ Oct 8 2003, 03:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mozilla is basically Netscape repackaged with a fancy new front end. But from using it i noticed a lot of the same errors with parsing CSS, for example, that i noticed with Netscape, needless to say i uninstalled it. Then about a year or so later i tried it again, same thing, uninstalled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First off... if you noticed 'CSS parsing' errors in Mozilla, you likely forgot to set your DOCTYPE at the first line of your HTML file. Run the web-pages through the <a href='http://validator.w3.org/file-upload.html' target='_blank'>W3C HTML Validator</a> and see if they pass, <a href='http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-upload.html' target='_blank'>ditto on your CSS code</a> as well.
See what the CSS is supposed to do, don't judge it based on what IE does. ESPECIALLY if you have an incorrect <DOCTYPE> header, or forgot to follow the standard and include a proper <META> tag to identify the language. Mozilla follows the specs as close to the letter as it can, but if you don't tell it you're making a standards-based web-page, it specifically emulates the errors and flaws of older NetScape releases to help maintain compatability.
Also, if you really care, I can point to dozens of web-pages that have specifically had to code 'around' IEs limitations and flaws, while the code for browsers that follow the spec like Opera 7.x, and Mozilla 1.4 or 1.5, are in some cases a third the size. Sometimes, IE can't be made to work at all for something Mozilla and Opera handle gracefully, and correctly.
And Mozilla and Opera both now only block 'automatically' opened popups. You click on a link, they let the popup happen, so 'image windows' and the like all work fine. They have worked fine for quite a while, so you obviously haven't tested them recently.
As for Mozilla being slower or more memory-hungry than IE... that's true. It's also because it was, essentially, mIRC, IE, Outlook (NOT Express), and FrontPage rolled into one program. Which is why they're rebuilding the entire suite as fully seperate programs now, and making them run far, far faster, leaner, and cleaner.
lol, okies so now I'm using firebird instead of IE... mainly because it refreshes the pages on forums properly and I can see more of the screen with it =3
My only funny little quibble is that it doesn't pop up my 'you have messages in your inbox' window and doesn't have the little icon in the corner it's supposed to to allow me to tell it 'dont block that silly'. Other than that I guess I'm a convert <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 9 2003, 10:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 9 2003, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol, okies so now I'm using firebird instead of IE... mainly because it refreshes the pages on forums properly and I can see more of the screen with it =3
My only funny little quibble is that it doesn't pop up my 'you have messages in your inbox' window and doesn't have the little icon in the corner it's supposed to to allow me to tell it 'dont block that silly'. Other than that I guess I'm a convert <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can tell Firebird to not block popups from selected websites. Tools --> Options --> Web Features (in the box labelled "Always allow the sites below to open popup windows")
DY357LXPlaying since day 1. Still can't Comm.EnglandJoin Date: 2002-10-27Member: 1651Members, Constellation
I've used MoZilla and their FireBird. But got sick of seeing "Click here to install the plug-in" and went back to IE <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just saw this on Slashdot: <a href='http://slashdot.org/articles/03/10/09/1332219.shtml?tid=109&tid=113&tid=126&tid=128&tid=187&tid=95' target='_blank'>Microsoft Wins Browser War, Abandons 'Innovation'</a>
<a href='http://slashdot.org/' target='_blank'>Slashdot</a>, by the way, is an anti-Microsoft website that frequently runs Microsoft ads.
i skimmed the thread and ive seen Pro IE: loads faster, Con IE: CSS glitch.
now since i dont kno what CSS is and i dont care, and the webdesigner over there said that the alternatives are poorly designed, i dont feel the need to switch?
tabbed browsing? yeah i call that my start bar down on the bottom here, see that tabs for mirc, IE, IE, trillian, IE, and oh another IE.
i tried mozilla once because mouse gestures sounded so cool. i jsut noticed it loaded really slow, had a milion buttonsa all over the top and left panes that got in the way, and didnt have the gestures plugin installed. so instead of trying to find out how to install it, well i went right back to the IE that loads 3x faster.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited October 2003
Here is what you need to worry about with ie <a href='http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/security/story/0,2000048600,20279477,00.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/security/...20279477,00.htm</a>
I've never been anti microsoft, but these days I'm of the growing opinion that they are irresponsible and incompetent.
Mozilla firebird is my browser of choice. It is very very small, is very configurable, and has type ahead find, which is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while. I can't live without it now. You can just start typing and it will find the first text in the window that matches.
I don't understand at all what people don't like about tabbed browsing. I wouldn't be able to function with out it. It lets you organize all your windows for multitasking. Also, say you are reading an article that links to something else interesting. You want to finish the article but you want to investigate the link. You just middle click and have it load in the background so its right there for you when your done and so you remember to read it.
(and if you don't like tabs for some reason, its just a few clicks away to turn it off)
<!--QuoteBegin--CrystalSnake+Oct 9 2003, 10:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CrystalSnake @ Oct 9 2003, 10:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just saw this on Slashdot: <a href='http://slashdot.org/articles/03/10/09/1332219.shtml?tid=109&tid=113&tid=126&tid=128&tid=187&tid=95' target='_blank'>Microsoft Wins Browser War, Abandons 'Innovation'</a>
<a href='http://slashdot.org/' target='_blank'>Slashdot</a>, by the way, is an anti-Microsoft website that frequently runs Microsoft ads. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Slashdot is not anti-microsoft. Many of the news poisters and members are, but thats not the same thing. Slashdot is just a tech news(blog) site.
GreyPaws, Of course your not going to notice lack of features on a web site, IE is 95% of the browser market so web sites don't use features it doesn't support (or if they do, they wouldn't tell you about it anyway). And I fail to see what Mozilla being Open Source has to do with anything.
DY357LX, Due to the recent ruling against MS, your going to be seeing quite alot of "Click here to install this" in the near future.
Well I suppose this is a bit late in the game, but I'll join the fun none the less <pulls 2 cents out of pocket, tosses it in>
First off, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned my favorite reason to switch from IE. THE GLARING SECURITY ISSUES. I'm just not a big fan of having stuff installed on my comp without my consent, if that means I have to click here to get a plugin, so be it. Theres really only 2 plugins I use anyway, Flash and Shockwave. I prefer that to the alternative, Gator "improving" my browsing experience, or that god-forsaken purple ape. Yes, if you're very careful and closely monitor your browser you could probably scrape by with only a bunch of crappy cookies. Sounds like a hassle to me.
I've been a Firebird guy for awhile now and I've poked around enough to find some of the advantages to using an open-source program. First of all, theres a crap-load of people out there with creativity and programming skills who are dying to improve the product.
First off, if you're thinking of making the switch, look into a compiled version of the code thats optimized for your cpu. Some dude out there takes all of the nightly build sources and complies them each like 4-6 times each optimized for a different cpu, and they run pretty snappily. If you're sure of your processor and its capabilities, look for a release you'd like (they're mostly nightlies labeled by their release dates, try the 0.6.1 or 0.7rc) and then the codes for the processors go something like:
Optimised for Pentium 4, Pentium M, Celeron 1.7GHz+ and Athlon64 with SSE2 (-Oxs -G7 -SSE2) Optimised for Athlon XP and some newer Durons with SSE (-Oxs -G7 -SSE) Optimised for non-SSE Athlons (-Oxs -G7):
I think that covers the main ones. Heres where they're all posted <a href='http://pryan.org/firebird/aebrahim' target='_blank'>http://pryan.org/firebird/aebrahim</a>
If you want an installer to skip the optimization confusion, and that will update your registry so plugins will be able to find Firebird, or for just the registry file/instructions on how to make your own, check this site. It also has instructions for installing pretty much any plugin you'll need: <a href='http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/faqs/phoenixwin.html' target='_blank'>http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/faqs/phoenixwin.html</a>
Last but certainly not least, head over to texturizer.net's Firebird page for an amazing knowledge base for Firebird. Theres all kinds of keyboard and mouse shortcuts, tips and tricks (be sure to check these out), themes to 'pretty it up', and a huge list of those wonderful extensions that everyone loves so much. Go here: <a href='http://texturizer.net/firebird/' target='_blank'>http://texturizer.net/firebird/</a>
On a side note, I'm running and extension called Radial Context Menu, that is similar to the mouse gestures without the hassle of having to memorize everything. Its very similar to the NS in game menu system. Well I guess thats all I can think of now, can't wait for 0.7 and Firebird rules and all that junk....
<!--QuoteBegin--Dr_Shaggy+Oct 9 2003, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dr_Shaggy @ Oct 9 2003, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On a side note, I'm running and extension called Radial Context Menu, that is similar to the mouse gestures without the hassle of having to memorize everything. Its very similar to the NS in game menu system. Well I guess thats all I can think of now, can't wait for 0.7 and Firebird rules and all that junk.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Radial Context > all. Don't even try to dispute this.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Radial Context == Real name of Pie Menus. What I tend to use on Mozilla. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I loved operas customability (sp?) but fact is it just couldnt display properaly all the time, often enough in fact that I couldnt <i>force myself</i> to continue using it. IE has never had those kinds of problems.
If opera werent so stubborn about "standard" compliance, and was able to display IE non-standards I would use it. I dont care who wrote what rules and called them "standards" but if only 10% follow those rules, they are useless guidelines. Standards are the rules set forth by the authority, and well, MS <i>is</i> the authority with an overwhelming majority of the market share. Hopefully this will not continue to be the case and all web browsers will one day display in accord with standards.
Also, I read somewhere that when you "identify" your browser as IE , it's only to trick your computer into calling your web browser in place of IE, and not to trick web pages. So I dont think it has any effect on browser share stats. Could be wrong tho.
<!--QuoteBegin--CrystalSnake+Oct 9 2003, 03:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CrystalSnake @ Oct 9 2003, 03:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just saw this on Slashdot: <a href='http://slashdot.org/articles/03/10/09/1332219.shtml?tid=109&tid=113&tid=126&tid=128&tid=187&tid=95' target='_blank'>Microsoft Wins Browser War, Abandons 'Innovation'</a>
<a href='http://slashdot.org/' target='_blank'>Slashdot</a>, by the way, is an anti-Microsoft website that frequently runs Microsoft ads. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Never trust anyone whos integrity is outweighed by thier greed.
Actually, Ive never though slashdot to be anti MS but I hate slashdot anyway...if only for poor design.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I loved operas customability (sp?) but fact is it just couldnt display properaly all the time, often enough in fact that I couldnt <i>force myself</i> to continue using it. IE has never had those kinds of problems.
If opera werent so stubborn about "standard" compliance, and was able to display IE non-standards I would use it. I dont care who wrote what rules and called them "standards" but if only 10% follow those rules, they are useless guidelines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually something like 90% of browsers comply with W3C standars. Its just that one of the ones that doesn't has 95% marketshare, which their keeping, in part, by not following standards (this is true in more than just the browser arena).
Also, I read somewhere that when you "identify" your browser as IE , it's only to trick your computer into calling your web browser in place of IE, and not to trick web pages. So I dont think it has any effect on browser share stats. Could be wrong tho.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know where you read that, but it is completely false. You browser can easily edit a few registry settings to 'trick'(though its really the way the API is supposed to work) windows into calling it instead of IE. When you set a browser to identify itself as another broser, your changing the value of a string it sends to the server so the server can indetify it (and use code that is known to work on that browser if it would otherwise be unsupported [this was a bigger deal back when Netscape and IE were duking it out]). What it does is trick the server into identifying it as IE6, usually so that you don't get a page telling you to update your browser to IE6 (to support some feature) that was intended for IE4 users.
Well I used to use IE and Outlook Express because I was too bored to download anything. But when Opera 6 came, my soul was sold.
Opera 6, especially the new version is everything I could dream from a browser. I don't use the hotlist at all, I find it useless. But on every other way, Opera owns Internet Explorel.
First of all it seems to load sites a lot faster. It also displays information on what is currently being loaded a lot better.
All the settings to what program to open what file, and the awesome transfers tab. Yay.
Skinnable. I likey.
Mouse gestures. I keep pressing the right button down and pressing the left button at the same time always when I'm using some dumb IE browser at school or at some other computer. Opera goes to the previous page with that gesture, which is super simple and usefull. Also, the fact that when you are looking at a website that has pages following the same pattern, such as www.somedumbwebcomic.com/archives/xxx , where xxx is a number changing from some number forward, you can just hold the left button and press the right mouse button at the same time, and you go to the next page without having to press any links at all! Now that is intelligent browsing!
Incredible customization. I have customized my browser like hellalot, with buttons for opening pretty much every program I use a lot, google search and so on.
The wise anti pop-up blocking. Just blocks the "bad" pop-ups. Very nice, and doesn't have some dumb ram-stealing program running in the background at the same time.
Author/user mode. It's wonderful. When your going to a site with lots of useless stuff, and you want just the links, you can choose "Images and pictures" only if you have clicked on the button to change yourself to user mode. Also, you can make the browser show the structural code of the website as you are browsing it. Kinda nice. Ofcourse disabling images is nice as well. Or making the web page look like c64, if you are feeling funky.
Awesome integrated mail client. Beats all the living out of Outlook Express. I wonder why I had to use that horrible piece of software before...
Tabs. Some people like having 10-20 browser windows in their taskbar. I don't. They all go nicely in one window, and I can click on them to change, or hold right mouse button and scroll with my mousewheel.
And usability is on a whole other level than IE.
So I am 100% Opera. Only good thing microsoft has created is Windows and Messenger. Maybe other things as well, but they did a horrible job with their browser <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just one thing I noticed about Mozilla vs. IE. In the bottom right corner of this forum there is the drop-down box to jump to another section of the forum. With IE, I could use my scroll wheel to cycle through it once I clicked on it. With Mozilla, using the scroll wheel causes the drop-down box to close. I don't know if this is part of some setting, but it was just something I noticed.
After playing with Mozilla settings for about 15 minutes, it seems to work almost exactly the same as IE. I may make use of the tabbed browsing, and I have seen the popup blocker work, but otherwise it seems the same. They both take about 2 seconds to open and use about the same amount of RAM.
I use IE, unless I hit something that won't work in IE... then I double-click teh Firebird. I run into different problems with the 2 different browsers, but IE works for me most of the time... for instance, I can't get shockwave animations to play in mozilla (they seem to save to disk automatically, and I can't for the life of me find the menu to change that), but I can't get GIF images to animate on IE (don't know why that is. I tweaked the 'advanced options' til my head almost exploded, to no avail)...
I admit to the laziness. why switch? yeah, sure, it's evil, and maybe in some way it's contributing to the MS monopoly... but it's free, so it's not like MS is getting money when we use it... I know all the IE hotkeys and stuff; I often browse mouseless, because I'm in fact too lazy to reach for the mouse :> I'd have to relearn how to do that in mozilla, if it's even possible...
and forget opera; i'm not touching any browser with a built-in ad. even if you can block the ad with other software, a built-in ad is a crime against humanity.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin--DiscoZombie+Oct 10 2003, 11:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiscoZombie @ Oct 10 2003, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I admit to the laziness. why switch? yeah, sure, it's evil, and maybe in some way it's contributing to the MS monopoly... but it's free, so it's not like MS is getting money when we use it... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, incorrect. IE sets (and in the past would NOT allow you to change, unsure if they added the option recently) the default 'webpage search' if a domain was not found, to using the MSN search.
Little issue? Hardly. Imagine ten thousand people a second, all using IE, all mistyping webpages. There are things called 'search engine rankings', that lead companies either to pay an engine to return their links with higher priority, or outright run banner ads on those websites. Of course, when you 'miss' a page, you don't see any of those ads. But it still records it as a 'hit' going through their search engine, popping them up in the rankings. Which, in turn, leads more companies to pay them for ad-space, when they do not deserve it.
Through this tactic, the MSN search page has become the 'most used search engine on the face of the planet'. When a majority of people I speak to wouldn't touch the thing... preferring Google, Metacrawler, or Yahoo. Which is another fun little bit about the Moz, being able to set your default search engine, instead of being stuck as a statistic, fueling the MS propaganda and cashflow machine.
Comments
there you go <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
All esuna said there is he likes IE, and I can't blame him.
Opera's hand gesture thingies are nifty but the rest of it is horrible; it looks nasty (don't even get me started on skins), its got a banner which none of the others have and like esuna I <b>haaaaate</b> windows within windows whether they're 'tabulated' (in esuna's case) or not.
You might like them, but then again you're not using IE, the people who use IE don't.
Everything is right with the world <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm currently now using Mozilla Firebird, and i like it. I'm yet to test any of the things that brought up errors before (Which were CSS1 border settings and so on, i can't remember exactly, but i have a page that tests them somewhere in the depths of my HDD) but as it stands, they've improved it from the last time i used it.
I feel like such a hypocrite, lol.
No point in DL'ing it now when I'll just have to redownload it in a week. Like picking up 1.04 to learn the game, only to have to relearn it in a week with 2.0.
Don't.
Seriously, you have to actually be interested in it in order to switch. If you're not interested, you ignore features you might like and you might just turn yourself off more. If you're interested, great. If you're not, well, you're not. Don't trouble yourself. Until and unless IE craps out on you or frustrates you, you will probably not enjoy an alternative browser.
Oh, and to everyone who uses Firebird, I highly recommend going into Tools/Options/Extensions and downloading whatever catches your fancy. They can do some wonderful things (although I haven't gotten Shockwave to work, would appreciate help with that). I don't see why people don't like tabbed browsing, I prefer having an extra toolbar over having a very cluttered-up taskbar... but I guess if you don't use multiple sites much it isn't as appealing. Oh well.
I use IE, and when I run adaware, it kills pop-up cookies. The only time I have gotten frustrated with IE is when I had to upgrade, then I got windows XP. I had to use Mozilla for a while, and I didn't really find it that intresting. I couldn't transfer favorites, pop-up's still popped up, and it took 2 minutes to load. Compare that to my IE's 5 seconds. My mouse scroll wheel didn't work and I couldn't use the arrow keys to scroll down. That ticked me off. That said
Unless you actually find an article from a Tech Magazine, posted on a .org or a well-known website (say, Slashdot or something like that), I'm not gonna take any "information" you post to be 100% factual. Because it's the web, and people don't have to be truthful. So that Ashitaka-san website might just be a load of baloney.
I use IE, and when I run adaware, it kills pop-up cookies. The only time I have gotten frustrated with IE is when I had to upgrade, then I got windows XP. I had to use Mozilla for a while, and I didn't really find it that intresting. I couldn't transfer favorites, pop-up's still popped up, and it took 2 minutes to load. Compare that to my IE's 5 seconds. My mouse scroll wheel didn't work and I couldn't use the arrow keys to scroll down. That ticked me off. That said
Unless you actually find an article from a Tech Magazine, posted on a .org or a well-known website (say, Slashdot or something like that), I'm not gonna take any "information" you post to be 100% factual. Because it's the web, and people don't have to be truthful. So that Ashitaka-san website might just be a load of baloney. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read Gadzuko's post above and understand why I keep saying: Wanna keep using IE? Good for you.
As for standards, the Web Standards Project's opinion: <a href='http://www.webstandards.org/opinion/' target='_blank'>http://www.webstandards.org/opinion/</a>
I really don't feel like doing the work to find more information at this time so if that isn't good enough for you, tough.
BTW, you must have been using a really, really really, old version of Mozilla to not have it import IE favorites. And you must have never bothered to check the settings to turn on pop-up blocking.
Oh yeah, and if you consider the WaSP to be biased, look at their front page.
man stealth browse....
Ghostzilla!
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The Mac version supports alpha-channel PNG files out of the box, perfectly, no fiddling around. It also handles things much closer to the quality that Mozilla handles them, actually.
Remember, MacIE was developed seperately, by a different team than WinIE, <b><i>from scratch</i></b> for the Mac.
I will never go back.
Those of you whose major complaint seems to be that they don't like window-in-window browsing...there is an option to have each window have its own toolbar...like IE, why you would dislike WIW is beyond me as it means I can can browse mutiple webpages without cluttering up my desktop and minimizing opera minimizes all my webpages at once. Also spending (too much) time on IRC means you're going to come across nasty little people who give you urls to various pages that open a bazillion other pages at once, most of these sites are either automatically blocked by operas built in popup stopper or you just press the little X in the top corner and blam all the windows go at once.
(Check out early morning precoffee grammatically terrible post)
Being that you follow the One Microsoft Way™ you wouldn't see advantages (other than built in popup-blocking and working CSS2). For those of us who like to have a choice in what software we use Open Standards are very important. IE doesn't follow standards so I don't support it, and I don't recommend its use.
Some examples of features in other browsers I don't see in IE (some of these are extentions available through mozilla's extention site):
Mouse gestures - They rock.
Tabbed Browsing - Rocks, if your into that sort of thing.
Flash Click to View - Stops nasty flash adds from wasting my prescious bandwidth.
Built in popup blocking
Some or all of those may be available as plugins to IE, I wouldn't know.
In short. If you like IE and have no desire to support open standards, keep using IE.
If you want to support open standards, or one of these features interests you, use another borwser. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess for my purposes IE works just fine, there are a million free popup killers on the net, I happen to use a good one, the rest of the stuff has no interest for me. I've never had IE not "support" a feature on anyones web site. I've also never had it not understand file extentions. It handles secure and non secure content perfectly, and the whole open source code thing can be equated with socialism, and since we have the military (capitalist based organization) to thank for the internet in general I dont feel the "open sourcecode" argument is valid. MS makes good product, they have the money and power to keep making them better, if people would stop badmouthing/suing them we would all be better off
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=10&t=47624&st=0' target='_blank'>Clicky</a> for all of you free source code junkies
First off... if you noticed 'CSS parsing' errors in Mozilla, you likely forgot to set your DOCTYPE at the first line of your HTML file. Run the web-pages through the <a href='http://validator.w3.org/file-upload.html' target='_blank'>W3C HTML Validator</a> and see if they pass, <a href='http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-upload.html' target='_blank'>ditto on your CSS code</a> as well.
See what the CSS is supposed to do, don't judge it based on what IE does. ESPECIALLY if you have an incorrect <DOCTYPE> header, or forgot to follow the standard and include a proper <META> tag to identify the language. Mozilla follows the specs as close to the letter as it can, but if you don't tell it you're making a standards-based web-page, it specifically emulates the errors and flaws of older NetScape releases to help maintain compatability.
Also, if you really care, I can point to dozens of web-pages that have specifically had to code 'around' IEs limitations and flaws, while the code for browsers that follow the spec like Opera 7.x, and Mozilla 1.4 or 1.5, are in some cases a third the size. Sometimes, IE can't be made to work at all for something Mozilla and Opera handle gracefully, and correctly.
And Mozilla and Opera both now only block 'automatically' opened popups. You click on a link, they let the popup happen, so 'image windows' and the like all work fine. They have worked fine for quite a while, so you obviously haven't tested them recently.
As for Mozilla being slower or more memory-hungry than IE... that's true. It's also because it was, essentially, mIRC, IE, Outlook (NOT Express), and FrontPage rolled into one program. Which is why they're rebuilding the entire suite as fully seperate programs now, and making them run far, far faster, leaner, and cleaner.
My only funny little quibble is that it doesn't pop up my 'you have messages in your inbox' window and doesn't have the little icon in the corner it's supposed to to allow me to tell it 'dont block that silly'. Other than that I guess I'm a convert <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
My only funny little quibble is that it doesn't pop up my 'you have messages in your inbox' window and doesn't have the little icon in the corner it's supposed to to allow me to tell it 'dont block that silly'. Other than that I guess I'm a convert <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can tell Firebird to not block popups from selected websites.
Tools --> Options --> Web Features
(in the box labelled "Always allow the sites below to open popup windows")
"Click here to install the plug-in" and went back to IE <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://slashdot.org/articles/03/10/09/1332219.shtml?tid=109&tid=113&tid=126&tid=128&tid=187&tid=95' target='_blank'>Microsoft Wins Browser War, Abandons 'Innovation'</a>
<a href='http://slashdot.org/' target='_blank'>Slashdot</a>, by the way, is an anti-Microsoft website that frequently runs Microsoft ads.
now since i dont kno what CSS is and i dont care, and the webdesigner over there said that the alternatives are poorly designed, i dont feel the need to switch?
tabbed browsing? yeah i call that my start bar down on the bottom here, see that tabs for mirc, IE, IE, trillian, IE, and oh another IE.
i tried mozilla once because mouse gestures sounded so cool. i jsut noticed it loaded really slow, had a milion buttonsa all over the top and left panes that got in the way, and didnt have the gestures plugin installed. so instead of trying to find out how to install it, well i went right back to the IE that loads 3x faster.
I've never been anti microsoft, but these days I'm of the growing opinion that they are irresponsible and incompetent.
Mozilla firebird is my browser of choice. It is very very small, is very configurable, and has type ahead find, which is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while. I can't live without it now. You can just start typing and it will find the first text in the window that matches.
I don't understand at all what people don't like about tabbed browsing. I wouldn't be able to function with out it. It lets you organize all your windows for multitasking. Also, say you are reading an article that links to something else interesting. You want to finish the article but you want to investigate the link. You just middle click and have it load in the background so its right there for you when your done and so you remember to read it.
(and if you don't like tabs for some reason, its just a few clicks away to turn it off)
I use Avant browser actually, it's pretty nifty. There's a lot of options to make use of and it just fits my browsing habits.
<a href='http://www.avantbrowser.com/' target='_blank'>Avant Browser</a>
<a href='http://slashdot.org/articles/03/10/09/1332219.shtml?tid=109&tid=113&tid=126&tid=128&tid=187&tid=95' target='_blank'>Microsoft Wins Browser War, Abandons 'Innovation'</a>
<a href='http://slashdot.org/' target='_blank'>Slashdot</a>, by the way, is an anti-Microsoft website that frequently runs Microsoft ads. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slashdot is not anti-microsoft. Many of the news poisters and members are, but thats not the same thing. Slashdot is just a tech news(blog) site.
GreyPaws, Of course your not going to notice lack of features on a web site, IE is 95% of the browser market so web sites don't use features it doesn't support (or if they do, they wouldn't tell you about it anyway). And I fail to see what Mozilla being Open Source has to do with anything.
DY357LX, Due to the recent ruling against MS, your going to be seeing quite alot of "Click here to install this" in the near future.
First off, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned my favorite reason to switch from IE. THE GLARING SECURITY ISSUES. I'm just not a big fan of having stuff installed on my comp without my consent, if that means I have to click here to get a plugin, so be it. Theres really only 2 plugins I use anyway, Flash and Shockwave. I prefer that to the alternative, Gator "improving" my browsing experience, or that god-forsaken purple ape. Yes, if you're very careful and closely monitor your browser you could probably scrape by with only a bunch of crappy cookies. Sounds like a hassle to me.
I've been a Firebird guy for awhile now and I've poked around enough to find some of the advantages to using an open-source program. First of all, theres a crap-load of people out there with creativity and programming skills who are dying to improve the product.
First off, if you're thinking of making the switch, look into a compiled version of the code thats optimized for your cpu. Some dude out there takes all of the nightly build sources and complies them each like 4-6 times each optimized for a different cpu, and they run pretty snappily. If you're sure of your processor and its capabilities, look for a release you'd like (they're mostly nightlies labeled by their release dates, try the 0.6.1 or 0.7rc) and then the codes for the processors go something like:
Optimised for Pentium 4, Pentium M, Celeron 1.7GHz+ and Athlon64 with SSE2 (-Oxs -G7 -SSE2)
Optimised for Athlon XP and some newer Durons with SSE (-Oxs -G7 -SSE)
Optimised for non-SSE Athlons (-Oxs -G7):
I think that covers the main ones. Heres where they're all posted <a href='http://pryan.org/firebird/aebrahim' target='_blank'>http://pryan.org/firebird/aebrahim</a>
If you want an installer to skip the optimization confusion, and that will update your registry so plugins will be able to find Firebird, or for just the registry file/instructions on how to make your own, check this site. It also has instructions for installing pretty much any plugin you'll need:
<a href='http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/faqs/phoenixwin.html' target='_blank'>http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/faqs/phoenixwin.html</a>
Last but certainly not least, head over to texturizer.net's Firebird page for an amazing knowledge base for Firebird. Theres all kinds of keyboard and mouse shortcuts, tips and tricks (be sure to check these out), themes to 'pretty it up', and a huge list of those wonderful extensions that everyone loves so much. Go here: <a href='http://texturizer.net/firebird/' target='_blank'>http://texturizer.net/firebird/</a>
On a side note, I'm running and extension called Radial Context Menu, that is similar to the mouse gestures without the hassle of having to memorize everything. Its very similar to the NS in game menu system.
Well I guess thats all I can think of now, can't wait for 0.7 and Firebird rules and all that junk....
Very happy with it, however, I'm not much of a web browser.
Well I guess thats all I can think of now, can't wait for 0.7 and Firebird rules and all that junk.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Radial Context > all. Don't even try to dispute this.
If opera werent so stubborn about "standard" compliance, and was able to display IE non-standards I would use it. I dont care who wrote what rules and called them "standards" but if only 10% follow those rules, they are useless guidelines. Standards are the rules set forth by the authority, and well, MS <i>is</i> the authority with an overwhelming majority of the market share. Hopefully this will not continue to be the case and all web browsers will one day display in accord with standards.
Also, I read somewhere that when you "identify" your browser as IE , it's only to trick your computer into calling your web browser in place of IE, and not to trick web pages. So I dont think it has any effect on browser share stats. Could be wrong tho.
<a href='http://slashdot.org/articles/03/10/09/1332219.shtml?tid=109&tid=113&tid=126&tid=128&tid=187&tid=95' target='_blank'>Microsoft Wins Browser War, Abandons 'Innovation'</a>
<a href='http://slashdot.org/' target='_blank'>Slashdot</a>, by the way, is an anti-Microsoft website that frequently runs Microsoft ads. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never trust anyone whos integrity is outweighed by thier greed.
Actually, Ive never though slashdot to be anti MS but I hate slashdot anyway...if only for poor design.
If opera werent so stubborn about "standard" compliance, and was able to display IE non-standards I would use it. I dont care who wrote what rules and called them "standards" but if only 10% follow those rules, they are useless guidelines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually something like 90% of browsers comply with W3C standars. Its just that one of the ones that doesn't has 95% marketshare, which their keeping, in part, by not following standards (this is true in more than just the browser arena).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Also, I read somewhere that when you "identify" your browser as IE , it's only to trick your computer into calling your web browser in place of IE, and not to trick web pages. So I dont think it has any effect on browser share stats. Could be wrong tho.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know where you read that, but it is completely false. You browser can easily edit a few registry settings to 'trick'(though its really the way the API is supposed to work) windows into calling it instead of IE. When you set a browser to identify itself as another broser, your changing the value of a string it sends to the server so the server can indetify it (and use code that is known to work on that browser if it would otherwise be unsupported [this was a bigger deal back when Netscape and IE were duking it out]). What it does is trick the server into identifying it as IE6, usually so that you don't get a page telling you to update your browser to IE6 (to support some feature) that was intended for IE4 users.
Opera 6, especially the new version is everything I could dream from a browser. I don't use the hotlist at all, I find it useless. But on every other way, Opera owns Internet Explorel.
First of all it seems to load sites a lot faster. It also displays information on what is currently being loaded a lot better.
All the settings to what program to open what file, and the awesome transfers tab. Yay.
Skinnable. I likey.
Mouse gestures. I keep pressing the right button down and pressing the left button at the same time always when I'm using some dumb IE browser at school or at some other computer. Opera goes to the previous page with that gesture, which is super simple and usefull. Also, the fact that when you are looking at a website that has pages following the same pattern, such as www.somedumbwebcomic.com/archives/xxx , where xxx is a number changing from some number forward, you can just hold the left button and press the right mouse button at the same time, and you go to the next page without having to press any links at all! Now that is intelligent browsing!
Incredible customization. I have customized my browser like hellalot, with buttons for opening pretty much every program I use a lot, google search and so on.
The wise anti pop-up blocking. Just blocks the "bad" pop-ups. Very nice, and doesn't have some dumb ram-stealing program running in the background at the same time.
Author/user mode. It's wonderful. When your going to a site with lots of useless stuff, and you want just the links, you can choose "Images and pictures" only if you have clicked on the button to change yourself to user mode. Also, you can make the browser show the structural code of the website as you are browsing it. Kinda nice. Ofcourse disabling images is nice as well. Or making the web page look like c64, if you are feeling funky.
Awesome integrated mail client. Beats all the living out of Outlook Express. I wonder why I had to use that horrible piece of software before...
Tabs. Some people like having 10-20 browser windows in their taskbar. I don't. They all go nicely in one window, and I can click on them to change, or hold right mouse button and scroll with my mousewheel.
And usability is on a whole other level than IE.
So I am 100% Opera. Only good thing microsoft has created is Windows and Messenger. Maybe other things as well, but they did a horrible job with their browser <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
After playing with Mozilla settings for about 15 minutes, it seems to work almost exactly the same as IE. I may make use of the tabbed browsing, and I have seen the popup blocker work, but otherwise it seems the same. They both take about 2 seconds to open and use about the same amount of RAM.
I admit to the laziness. why switch? yeah, sure, it's evil, and maybe in some way it's contributing to the MS monopoly... but it's free, so it's not like MS is getting money when we use it... I know all the IE hotkeys and stuff; I often browse mouseless, because I'm in fact too lazy to reach for the mouse :> I'd have to relearn how to do that in mozilla, if it's even possible...
and forget opera; i'm not touching any browser with a built-in ad. even if you can block the ad with other software, a built-in ad is a crime against humanity.
Actually, incorrect. IE sets (and in the past would NOT allow you to change, unsure if they added the option recently) the default 'webpage search' if a domain was not found, to using the MSN search.
Little issue? Hardly. Imagine ten thousand people a second, all using IE, all mistyping webpages. There are things called 'search engine rankings', that lead companies either to pay an engine to return their links with higher priority, or outright run banner ads on those websites.
Of course, when you 'miss' a page, you don't see any of those ads. But it still records it as a 'hit' going through their search engine, popping them up in the rankings. Which, in turn, leads more companies to pay them for ad-space, when they do not deserve it.
Through this tactic, the MSN search page has become the 'most used search engine on the face of the planet'. When a majority of people I speak to wouldn't touch the thing... preferring Google, Metacrawler, or Yahoo. Which is another fun little bit about the Moz, being able to set your default search engine, instead of being stuck as a statistic, fueling the MS propaganda and cashflow machine.