<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Oct 9 2003, 06:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Oct 9 2003, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sure, they may be born with an imbalance, but other people are born with other traits that may make them more inclined to do something. Let's face it, the Male body is designed/meant to have sex with a Female body. There is nothing natural about two men having intercourse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What about consensual anal sex between a man and a women, oral sex, masterbation. Did you know some homsexual couples never have anal sex, not all g@y people find it apealing either. And where exactly do g@y women fall in that theory or are lesbians ok in your book?
The fact is that the only reason it seems so strange to you right now is because you were raised to believe it to be, and society (at least American society) views it as such. The rationale your using now was used to bar interracial marriages too. Homophobia is usually a result of someone telling you being g@y is wrong, not liking the idea of homosexuality isn't something you're born inate with. The fact is g@ys are exactly the same kind of person you are, no different, you wouldn't know a g@y person if you met one 9/10 times.
The g@ysploitation going on in the media now just serves to reinforce stereotypes of light in the loafer g@ys that want to redecorate your house, it happend to black people in the 70's, it's no different now.
There's nothing wrong with finding homosexuality not personally appealing, but when you try to justify your <i>opinion</i> with ignorant facts it comes off negativly.
While I can't remember the source right off the bat, any n% of people are g4y figures are highly suspect. Heck, 95% of all figures are suspect. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for homo/bi sexuality, I don't like it and you'll never see me doing it. However I recongize that people should be allowed to do so if they wish to do so. It's like CS and NS. While I vastly prefer NS over CS, I recongize that some people might like CS over NS.
For raising of children, I'm not sure where I stand on that issue.
For legal same-sex marriages, I'm against. In general to my knowledge (but not always do to lovely way tax codes are written), you gain somewhat of a break with taxes with married. These breaks are created to encourage marriages and therefore raising of children. Evidence of this case is that a spouse not wishing to have children is a completely valid reason for annuling a marriage (no divorce courts or the like though I could be wrong). The problem with same-sex marriage is that there's no natural way for such a couple to have children (execpt by poxy and that's a whole different kettle of fish). Therefore, the state has no reason to encourage same-sex marriage and the benefits marriage usually allows. The arguement that there are childless and infertile couples that enjoy these benefits doesn't work as the childless couple may yet have children and the infertile may not have know before they married. Some loss are to be expected. However I can make with upmost certainity that same-sex marriages or sexual activity results in children 1.0*10^-10 percent of the time.
From a cultural standpoint, the West has always depended on the nuclear family as a social unit. The breakdown of that unit has had disatrous effects where it has been widespread (consider black inner cities). The Nuclear family is assumed to be neccesary for success the western world. The real question is, culturally, can a **** family function as well as a nuclear family?
I think it can. Many *** live 'extreme' lifestyles which is no doubt harmful to children. (note that a heterosexual doing the same thing would be just as bad, its just more prevelant among alternative lifestyles). People who live those kind of lifestyles are not the kind of people who would adopt children. One thing that breaks my heart is when a **** couple provides a loving home, but the state says "Oh, you can't have children." and shoves them in a crappy foster home. Some conservative christian attacked Bill O'Reilly for not confronting Rosie O'Donnell for on her 'harmful' lifestyle. Bill more or less told the guy to go to hell; Rosie was providing a loving home to children who would otherwise not have one.
An the flip side, the **** agenda is typically on the left. Letting them have children would only increase the number of democrats <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now now Jammer. Democrats arn't left wing. They're moderate right wing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have a friend that I have known all my life, and he recently told me he was g4y. At first it wierded me out, that we shared so many experiences growing up, yet we turned out so different. We even looked at playboy and stuff like most (all of you did it, come on) teenage males.
Needless to say it took me a while to sort out my feelings on the issue. I mean, i had known the guy for 18+ years.
I realized that he was the same person, regardless of all else. Same sense of humor, same shared hobbies. Everything that made him one of my bestest friends was totally unchanged. Granted we don't oogle babes on the beach the same way anymore. But I feel that if I had reacted differently and distanced myself from him, I would have regretted it for the rest of my life.
He came out 2 years ago, but things really haven't changed. He is even going to be a groomsman in my wedding next summer!
My advice to people who have problems with g4y people, is to get to know *who* someone is before you label them as just another f*g. I have several g4y friends now and I enjoy hanging out with them as well as my straight friends.
I am making a broad, but I believe mostly accurate, generalization in that most people who oppose homosexuality for moral or religous reasons really don't know anyone who is g4y. I would really like to know if a religous person has a good friend or loved one who is g4y, and hasn't adjusted thier beliefs even a little.
Its easy to condemn someone you don't know. Wait until someone you love comes out, then see how you feel.
Whoa whoa ! Don't get off track here. We're talking about the philosophy of homosexuality and bisexuality. Not the people, the people can be great people, no doubt, straight people can be jerks, that's not the case.
On a non-religious standpoint I don't believe it's correct or natural for sexual acts between a male, and a male. Or a female and a female. First of all, it's not logical, on the basis of our physical traits, it doesn't make sense.
What's natural is for men to like women, and vice-versa, we know this is natural because our bodies were designed that way. Now, I'm not particularly fond to homosexuals giving, (forgive me) handjobs / whatever to other women/guys. Neither do I find men having oral sex with each natural either, same with women.
If you want to talk about the topic, ok. That is my standpoint, and that's the basis of my rationale from here, and earlier. Now if you want to call me wrong all day thats your perogative, but it definetly won't get anyone anywhere.
Note : I do not approve of demonizing, or discriminating homosexuals, I simply do not approve of their choice.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whoa whoa ! Don't get off track here. We're talking about the philosophy of homosexuality and bisexuality. Not the people, the people can be great people, no doubt, straight people can be jerks, that's not the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Au contraire, it is all about the people. We're talking about people here, Sirus, not the mating habits of an african swallow. G4y people are real people like you and I. They are exactly like us, in fact. I hope you realize that, Sirus. Perhaps there is a voice in the back of your head that would like to say they aren't like you.
Maybe you'll understand some day, or maybe you won't. But the next generations will. Your kids might understand that concept better than most people ever can today.
First of all, seriously, don't try and talk down to me. That won't fly.
Do I think that it's ok to lie ? No I don't. Does that mean that I would find when a person lies that everything is <i>fine and dandy ?</i>. Do I still enjoy their personality ? Absolutely, I still like the person, I despise what they do sometimes.
Understand ?
Or should I just assume like you did, that you're completely unaware of all the circumstances, or that maybe you just can't catch on quick and maybe your children will understand.
<!--QuoteBegin--CForrester+Oct 9 2003, 02:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Oct 9 2003, 02:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't NEED a mother and a father, this has been proven time and time again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well thats not true at all...
Anyway to clarify first of all I have this to say. If people aren't hurting anyone else and they are happy, I am fine with it. I do not want anything to do with it however.
Its a sociological fact that a child without a masculine figure in the household has increased chances of becomming mentally unstable as an adult. Why? We don't know. We know it happens however.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 9 2003, 02:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 9 2003, 02:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Oct 9 2003, 08:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Oct 9 2003, 08:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well the conclusion reached in the other g4y thread was that the only grounds for opposing homo or bisexuality is religion. Personally I think there is nothing wrong with how a person is sexually. They're just like you and me: normal, everyday people just trying to live their lives. There is no reason to alienate them or discriminate against them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats because the relativistic morals of today's society mean that there can be no judgement of anyone. It is only through absolutistic morals such as those found in religion that we can judge someone.
From a relativist point of view, anything goes. We all have our excuses, our rights, our personality. If religion and its absolute morals are not allowed to be discussed, every one will be saying "Homosexuals are ok, they have the right to live thier lives how they want"
There is no discussion <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I like that statement, for two reasons, one I agree that our society cannot judge one another because of the morals, etc. I also think its interesting because you can only truly judge some one, by religion. You can see the irony if you look at the christian thought, that you shouldn't judge another. However my real opinion was stated above...Sorry about the hint of religion.
Im only coming back to this forum to say this one thing, because for some reason anti-g4ys really **** me off (odd, because I'm not g4y).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On a non-religious standpoint I don't believe it's correct or natural for sexual acts between a male, and a male. Or a female and a female. First of all, it's not logical, on the basis of our physical traits, it doesn't make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is illogical for you to wear clothes, yet (i'm assuming your not a nudist here) you persist on doing so. Humans shouldn't fly based on their physical traits either, yet we do. The fact is homosexuals like what they are doing, and nobody is getting hurt (unless they want to...) so they aren't doing anything wrong.
As for homosexual marraige, why the hell not? I keep hearing reasons like: "It doesn't encourage family" and such. Frankly that's just bull, a whole lot of homosexual couples (especially lesbian ones) adopt (or attain a child via artificial insemination / surrogates). There have been no conclusive studies (AFAIK) to show that a male/male or female/female household has a significant effect on a child's development.
I also hear things like: "It would destroy the sanctity of marriage", which is also bull. If you haven't noticed the sanctity of marraige has already been destroyed by straights with their high devorce rate.
In otherwords, it seems that any negative opinion of homosexuality is derived from either religion or society's general disaproval of it (which is also derived from religion).
Side note to mods: I can't stop myself from reading this forum, I even broke down and posted today. So if it is possible to ban me from just the discussion forum I'd really apreciate you doing so. Thnx.
EDIT: There probably isn't a way that you can ban me from viewing it is there? Banning me from posting will have to do then.
im still getting caught on this unnatural claim. 'humans are the wrong shape to be homosexual' ... humans are self aware (naturally), hell, humans do all kinds of stuff naturally...
perhaps it would help to look at animals? are there any animals which show homosexual behaviour? perhaps that would prove it can be considered natural, since you cant really accuse animals of having a 'corrupt philosophy'.
extremely quick search into the wonderful google suggests, yes, they do.
are these primates which exihibit homosexual behaviour also unnatural?
I'd like to say this... If the level of homosexuality rises enough, the human body will adapt. Probably to the point where same-sex couples can impregnate each other, and give birth.
<!--QuoteBegin--CForrester+Oct 10 2003, 06:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Oct 10 2003, 06:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to say this... If the level of homosexuality rises enough, the human body will adapt. Probably to the point where same-sex couples can impregnate each other, and give birth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Excuse me while I vomit. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CWAG Oct 10 2003+ 01:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CWAG Oct 10 2003 @ 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its a sociological fact that a child without a masculine figure in the household has increased chances of becomming mentally unstable as an adult. Why? We don't know. We know it happens however.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--Zel Oct 9 2003+ 02:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel Oct 9 2003 @ 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->theyll also lack any sort of masculine parental figure, and that is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You guys seem to be making the assumption that a homosexual can't possibly be masculine. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> (Stop watching Will & Grace, the show sucks <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I agree with sirus. <b>What is natural?</b> Obvious look at your self. Lets say for example you peice your ear. That earring(or whatever) is not-natural, That did not come in the packaging so you loose your warranty(lol).
This means homosexuals are <b>not natural</b> We were made this way we do it that way.
I myself have nothing againist g@y people, but something about them just makes me like shutter.
You can reaserch all you wan't but being an homosexual isn't born into you. It's rather you being attracted to the same sex. This ofcourse happens when you are just attracted to the same sex, not that when your were a baby and said "I was born g@y" You can <b>NOT</b> be born ****! If you were born **** you would have been born with the correct <i>parts</i>.
Your human shape and structure aren't any more natural than your soul, phycology, and chemical balance. That said, calling homosexuals not natural simply because they're not like a majority is pretty damn stupid.
I don't like redheads. It's not *natural*! I mean, if it was natural, there'd be more of them, right? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
werd mojo. can i point people to the dictionary definition of <i>natural</i> i put up a few posts back.
"but somthing about them makes me shutter" if you dislike people for a reason you cannot define, perhaps you should <i>seriously think </i>about why you feel that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First of all, seriously, don't try and talk down to me. That won't fly.
Do I think that it's ok to lie ? No I don't. Does that mean that I would find when a person lies that everything is fine and dandy ?. Do I still enjoy their personality ? Absolutely, I still like the person, I despise what they do sometimes.
Understand ?
Or should I just assume like you did, that you're completely unaware of all the circumstances, or that maybe you just can't catch on quick and maybe your children will understand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay to lie? Now this is an issue about lying? [sarcasm]I'm really sure that's why you hate g4y people, Sirus. Seriously.. I'm sure you've never lied before, and that everyone that lies or holds back information to you is shunned from your life like a plague.[/sarcasm]
No. You don't hate them because they lie. Admit that at least. And thanks for returning the quote back in a completely ignoramous fashion as if to say "ha ha take that!"
*sigh* I feel bad for anyone g4y in these forums... I know how unwelcome *I*'d feel if I were... anyone here hate (or 'made uncomfortable by') black people? or whites, or asians, or hispanics? Not that anyone would admit it if they *were* racist...
newsflash: homophobia is no different from racism. You'd do well to read my (irrefutable) argument before you start flaming, "OMJ you don't know what you're talking about!!"
Racism is the hate or fear of someone because of the color of their skin -- something a person has no control over. Homophobia is the hate or fear of someone because of their sexual orientation -- something he or she also has no control over. Do you think it's a choice to be g4y? Who would choose to be something that is so widely hated? Who would choose to be ridiculed and hated daily, or choose to never let anyone know who he or she really is to avoid that? Who would choose to be something that bars her or him from starting a family outside of adoption or artificial insemination? Who would choose to be something that might even cause him or her to live a lie and pretend to be hetero? Honestly, if it's a choice, tell me who would make it.
I know already that many homophobes would say 'G4ys should do what's 'morally right' and force themselves to be straight.' How do you feel about arranged marriages? How would you feel if you were forced into a profession you'd rather die than work at for the rest of your life? Heck, how do you feel about slavery? Why should anyone be forced to do something against their will or nature?
So, your sexual orientation isn't a choice any more than your race is. Therefore homophobia is akin to racism -- the irrational hatred or fear for someone based on something they have no control over.
As for the people who claim they 'hate the act, not the person' -- then why are you thinking about it? I'm sure I and the majority of humanity, g4y or str8, would 'shudder' to think about what YOU do in the bedroom too. And fear of being hit on? In a cruel world such as this, how many g4ys do you think are stupid enough to hit on someone without being 100% sure he's g4y too? Quite frankly, being overly hateful and curious is a little suspicious... anyone remember the end of American Beauty?
I don't know why I just wasted a half hour of my life typing this, because the fact remains that homophobia IS irrational, so no amount of logic will make someone comfortable with homosexuality (just like no amount of persuasion can make someone straight)... people are homophobic because they were brought up that way, because their friends are, because they're scared of that which they don't understand, or because they need a group to aim their life's frustrations at. There may be other reasons I'm overlooking, but one of them is NOT 'because homosexuality is morally wrong'.
When you are asking if something is "Wrong" or "right" then you are asking for a subjective interpretation of what the act is. And usually society forms around two major generalizations when it come to things such as "wrong" and "right". The first is releigion, releigion labels things wrong and right, the second are social structures. Which means that for something to be right or wrong, either it was declared by releigion or by someone in power, usually through releigion, above you. This is just my opinion. Other than those two possible ways.....i don't beleive Anything is either inherently "Right" or "wrong". So when you ask us to answer from a non releigous standpoint we are just answering from a societal moral standpoint.
My opinion on the actual topic, People will do what people will do I have no negetive or positive standing on the subject.
I think that, from a strictly biological standpoint, homosexuality is wrong. I mean, if men were meant to have sex with other men, or women with women, then you wouldn't need people of the opposite sex to have a child.
And to the argument that some people are "born ****," to me that just seems like a birth defect.
P.S. - Yes I have been around g4y people before, so i'm not ignorant on the subject. I had a g4y roomate for several months last year.
do you think heterosexual couples who have sex for fun are wrong too? it doesnt produce children, so is not 'what was intended'/'what was "meant" to happen' (whatever that means).
<!--QuoteBegin--Doug the Head+Oct 10 2003, 11:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doug the Head @ Oct 10 2003, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that, from a strictly biological standpoint, homosexuality is wrong. I mean, if men were meant to have sex with other men, or women with women, then you wouldn't need people of the opposite sex to have a child. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Homosexulity is probably MORE common in the animal world than in the human world. Male dogs hump each other all the time, for example. Biology is a branch of science, not a system of values. If anything, biology proves homosexuality is fine; otherwise, it would have been bred out of all species rather than being pretty common. Homosexuals may not have a means of directly propagating the species, but they can still be productive and contributing members of their societies, helping the species in that way. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to the argument that some people are "born ****," to me that just seems like a birth defect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if you assume there's something wrong with homosexuality, then yeah, I imagine it would be a defect in your eyes, much as black skin is a birth defect to Klansmen... <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S. - Yes I have been around g4y people before, so i'm not ignorant on the subject. I had a g4y roomate for several months last year.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> guess you didn't like the guy much <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> hope you didn't make him feel TOO crappy...
I see nothing wrong with homo or bisexuality. From my standpoint, as long as what you do doesn't harm anyone else, then there's nothing wrong with it, and to hell with what people think of you. I used to care a lot and hate myself for being what I was, and then I realized... who the hell are other people to judge me or tell me I'm wrong for something that's really none of their business anyway? I've become a lot more stable since then. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
With regard to being comfortable (here, in other forms, whatever), I think I'll just randomly throw out how I've been treated, as an openly bisexual girl with a female partner. Usually guys get turned on by it or don't care one way or another; there certainly are a lot of guys that are into "lesbian" porn (I use quotes because it's not intended for lesbians, it's girl/girl porn created with men in mind). But within that same group, you'll find vehemently anti-homosexuality (but EXCLUSIVELY anti- male homosexuality) guys.
"Natural?" If we were "natural" creatures we wouldn't be wearing manufactured clothes, cooking our meat... and we certainly wouldn't be "marrying" (as in remaining with a single partner).
As for masculinity; I'm a volunteer and counselor-in-training an a resource center for ***, lesbians, and transgendered; and boy do we have some masculine guys that come in. I mean MASCULINE. There seems to be this misconception that the "majority" of homosexual males are effeminate, and that lesbians are butch. It seems to be that I encounter an even mix of both.
as for "choosing" to be homosexual. Why the HELL would anyone "choose" to be part of a group that's constantly spat upon, treated like dirt, told they're wrong for being who they are, denied basic civil rights and in general hated by society? Even our President is supporting something called "Marriage Protection Week," in which paranoid heterosexuals are basically going out of their way to tell us that marriage is a sacred institution that somehow needs to be "protected" from us evil homo/bisexuals, despite the fact that we can't legally get married ANYWAY.
Discozombie, on that note about having to worry about who you hit on; that's a good point. It's a sad society you live in when children grow up learning -very- quickly on that any sort of abnormal orientation is something to be hidden deep away, or to face the consequences... those consequences being anything from being called names to being tortured and murdered. The situation is even worse for transgendered, who have an incredibly high death-by-murder rate.
And even then, to hit on another person (of the same sex), even if you know that they're ****, is still risky because you have to worry about the OTHER people around you taking notice and, well, doing something about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Daza400+Oct 10 2003, 08:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daza400 @ Oct 10 2003, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree with sirus. <b>What is natural?</b> Obvious look at your self. Lets say for example you peice your ear. That earring(or whatever) is not-natural, That did not come in the packaging so you loose your warranty(lol).
This means homosexuals are <b>not natural</b> We were made this way we do it that way.
I myself have nothing againist g@y people, but something about them just makes me like shutter.
You can reaserch all you wan't but being an homosexual isn't born into you. It's rather you being attracted to the same sex. This ofcourse happens when you are just attracted to the same sex, not that when your were a baby and said "I was born g@y" You can <b>NOT</b> be born ****! If you were born **** you would have been born with the correct <i>parts</i>.
END OF STORY! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 'Fraid not ol boy... ever heard of a hermaphrodite ?
People choose many things that hurt themselves. But this doesn't hurt them directly, just changes the way some folks react to them. Maybe they want attention, maybe they were abused, maybe they just don't like the opposite sex for whatever reason, maybe they live somewhere filled with ugly women. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> /shrug.
Comments
What about consensual anal sex between a man and a women, oral sex, masterbation. Did you know some homsexual couples never have anal sex, not all g@y people find it apealing either. And where exactly do g@y women fall in that theory or are lesbians ok in your book?
The fact is that the only reason it seems so strange to you right now is because you were raised to believe it to be, and society (at least American society) views it as such. The rationale your using now was used to bar interracial marriages too. Homophobia is usually a result of someone telling you being g@y is wrong, not liking the idea of homosexuality isn't something you're born inate with. The fact is g@ys are exactly the same kind of person you are, no different, you wouldn't know a g@y person if you met one 9/10 times.
The g@ysploitation going on in the media now just serves to reinforce stereotypes of light in the loafer g@ys that want to redecorate your house, it happend to black people in the 70's, it's no different now.
There's nothing wrong with finding homosexuality not personally appealing, but when you try to justify your <i>opinion</i> with ignorant facts it comes off negativly.
As for homo/bi sexuality, I don't like it and you'll never see me doing it. However I recongize that people should be allowed to do so if they wish to do so. It's like CS and NS. While I vastly prefer NS over CS, I recongize that some people might like CS over NS.
For raising of children, I'm not sure where I stand on that issue.
For legal same-sex marriages, I'm against. In general to my knowledge (but not always do to lovely way tax codes are written), you gain somewhat of a break with taxes with married. These breaks are created to encourage marriages and therefore raising of children. Evidence of this case is that a spouse not wishing to have children is a completely valid reason for annuling a marriage (no divorce courts or the like though I could be wrong). The problem with same-sex marriage is that there's no natural way for such a couple to have children (execpt by poxy and that's a whole different kettle of fish). Therefore, the state has no reason to encourage same-sex marriage and the benefits marriage usually allows. The arguement that there are childless and infertile couples that enjoy these benefits doesn't work as the childless couple may yet have children and the infertile may not have know before they married. Some loss are to be expected. However I can make with upmost certainity that same-sex marriages or sexual activity results in children 1.0*10^-10 percent of the time.
I think it can. Many *** live 'extreme' lifestyles which is no doubt harmful to children. (note that a heterosexual doing the same thing would be just as bad, its just more prevelant among alternative lifestyles). People who live those kind of lifestyles are not the kind of people who would adopt children. One thing that breaks my heart is when a **** couple provides a loving home, but the state says "Oh, you can't have children." and shoves them in a crappy foster home. Some conservative christian attacked Bill O'Reilly for not confronting Rosie O'Donnell for on her 'harmful' lifestyle. Bill more or less told the guy to go to hell; Rosie was providing a loving home to children who would otherwise not have one.
An the flip side, the **** agenda is typically on the left. Letting them have children would only increase the number of democrats <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Needless to say it took me a while to sort out my feelings on the issue. I mean, i had known the guy for 18+ years.
I realized that he was the same person, regardless of all else. Same sense of humor, same shared hobbies. Everything that made him one of my bestest friends was totally unchanged. Granted we don't oogle babes on the beach the same way anymore. But I feel that if I had reacted differently and distanced myself from him, I would have regretted it for the rest of my life.
He came out 2 years ago, but things really haven't changed. He is even going to be a groomsman in my wedding next summer!
My advice to people who have problems with g4y people, is to get to know *who* someone is before you label them as just another f*g.
I have several g4y friends now and I enjoy hanging out with them as well as my straight friends.
I am making a broad, but I believe mostly accurate, generalization in that most people who oppose homosexuality for moral or religous reasons really don't know anyone who is g4y. I would really like to know if a religous person has a good friend or loved one who is g4y, and hasn't adjusted thier beliefs even a little.
Its easy to condemn someone you don't know. Wait until someone you love comes out, then see how you feel.
On a non-religious standpoint I don't believe it's correct or natural for sexual acts between a male, and a male. Or a female and a female. First of all, it's not logical, on the basis of our physical traits, it doesn't make sense.
What's natural is for men to like women, and vice-versa, we know this is natural because our bodies were designed that way. Now, I'm not particularly fond to homosexuals giving, (forgive me) handjobs / whatever to other women/guys. Neither do I find men having oral sex with each natural either, same with women.
If you want to talk about the topic, ok. That is my standpoint, and that's the basis of my rationale from here, and earlier. Now if you want to call me wrong all day thats your perogative, but it definetly won't get anyone anywhere.
Note : I do not approve of demonizing, or discriminating homosexuals, I simply do not approve of their choice.
Au contraire, it is all about the people. We're talking about people here, Sirus, not the mating habits of an african swallow. G4y people are real people like you and I. They are exactly like us, in fact. I hope you realize that, Sirus. Perhaps there is a voice in the back of your head that would like to say they aren't like you.
Maybe you'll understand some day, or maybe you won't. But the next generations will. Your kids might understand that concept better than most people ever can today.
Do I think that it's ok to lie ? No I don't. Does that mean that I would find when a person lies that everything is <i>fine and dandy ?</i>. Do I still enjoy their personality ? Absolutely, I still like the person, I despise what they do sometimes.
Understand ?
Or should I just assume like you did, that you're completely unaware of all the circumstances, or that maybe you just can't catch on quick and maybe your children will understand.
Well thats not true at all...
Anyway to clarify first of all I have this to say. If people aren't hurting anyone else and they are happy, I am fine with it. I do not want anything to do with it however.
Its a sociological fact that a child without a masculine figure in the household has increased chances of becomming mentally unstable as an adult. Why? We don't know. We know it happens however.
Thats because the relativistic morals of today's society mean that there can be no judgement of anyone. It is only through absolutistic morals such as those found in religion that we can judge someone.
From a relativist point of view, anything goes. We all have our excuses, our rights, our personality. If religion and its absolute morals are not allowed to be discussed, every one will be saying "Homosexuals are ok, they have the right to live thier lives how they want"
There is no discussion <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I like that statement, for two reasons, one I agree that our society cannot judge one another because of the morals, etc. I also think its interesting because you can only truly judge some one, by religion. You can see the irony if you look at the christian thought, that you shouldn't judge another. However my real opinion was stated above...Sorry about the hint of religion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
On a non-religious standpoint I don't believe it's correct or natural for sexual acts between a male, and a male. Or a female and a female. First of all, it's not logical, on the basis of our physical traits, it doesn't make sense.
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It is illogical for you to wear clothes, yet (i'm assuming your not a nudist here) you persist on doing so. Humans shouldn't fly based on their physical traits either, yet we do. The fact is homosexuals like what they are doing, and nobody is getting hurt (unless they want to...) so they aren't doing anything wrong.
As for homosexual marraige, why the hell not? I keep hearing reasons like: "It doesn't encourage family" and such. Frankly that's just bull, a whole lot of homosexual couples (especially lesbian ones) adopt (or attain a child via artificial insemination / surrogates). There have been no conclusive studies (AFAIK) to show that a male/male or female/female household has a significant effect on a child's development.
I also hear things like: "It would destroy the sanctity of marriage", which is also bull. If you haven't noticed the sanctity of marraige has already been destroyed by straights with their high devorce rate.
In otherwords, it seems that any negative opinion of homosexuality is derived from either religion or society's general disaproval of it (which is also derived from religion).
Side note to mods: I can't stop myself from reading this forum, I even broke down and posted today. So if it is possible to ban me from just the discussion forum I'd really apreciate you doing so. Thnx.
EDIT: There probably isn't a way that you can ban me from viewing it is there? Banning me from posting will have to do then.
'humans are the wrong shape to be homosexual' ... humans are self aware (naturally), hell, humans do all kinds of stuff naturally...
perhaps it would help to look at animals? are there any animals which show homosexual behaviour? perhaps that would prove it can be considered natural, since you cant really accuse animals of having a 'corrupt philosophy'.
extremely quick search into the wonderful google suggests, yes, they do.
are these primates which exihibit homosexual behaviour also unnatural?
Excuse me while I vomit. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Zel Oct 9 2003+ 02:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel Oct 9 2003 @ 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->theyll also lack any sort of masculine parental figure, and that is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You guys seem to be making the assumption that a homosexual can't possibly be masculine. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> (Stop watching Will & Grace, the show sucks <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
This means homosexuals are <b>not natural</b> We were made this way we do it that way.
I myself have nothing againist g@y people, but something about them just makes me like shutter.
You can reaserch all you wan't but being an homosexual isn't born into you. It's rather you being attracted to the same sex. This ofcourse happens when you are just attracted to the same sex, not that when your were a baby and said "I was born g@y" You can <b>NOT</b> be born ****! If you were born **** you would have been born with the correct <i>parts</i>.
END OF STORY!
I mean, if it was natural, there'd be more of them, right?
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can i point people to the dictionary definition of <i>natural</i> i put up a few posts back.
"but somthing about them makes me shutter"
if you dislike people for a reason you cannot define, perhaps you should <i>seriously think </i>about why you feel that way.
*edit for clarifcation*
Do I think that it's ok to lie ? No I don't. Does that mean that I would find when a person lies that everything is fine and dandy ?. Do I still enjoy their personality ? Absolutely, I still like the person, I despise what they do sometimes.
Understand ?
Or should I just assume like you did, that you're completely unaware of all the circumstances, or that maybe you just can't catch on quick and maybe your children will understand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay to lie? Now this is an issue about lying?
[sarcasm]I'm really sure that's why you hate g4y people, Sirus. Seriously.. I'm sure you've never lied before, and that everyone that lies or holds back information to you is shunned from your life like a plague.[/sarcasm]
No. You don't hate them because they lie. Admit that at least.
And thanks for returning the quote back in a completely ignoramous fashion as if to say "ha ha take that!"
newsflash: homophobia is no different from racism. You'd do well to read my (irrefutable) argument before you start flaming, "OMJ you don't know what you're talking about!!"
Racism is the hate or fear of someone because of the color of their skin -- something a person has no control over. Homophobia is the hate or fear of someone because of their sexual orientation -- something he or she also has no control over. Do you think it's a choice to be g4y? Who would choose to be something that is so widely hated? Who would choose to be ridiculed and hated daily, or choose to never let anyone know who he or she really is to avoid that? Who would choose to be something that bars her or him from starting a family outside of adoption or artificial insemination? Who would choose to be something that might even cause him or her to live a lie and pretend to be hetero? Honestly, if it's a choice, tell me who would make it.
I know already that many homophobes would say 'G4ys should do what's 'morally right' and force themselves to be straight.' How do you feel about arranged marriages? How would you feel if you were forced into a profession you'd rather die than work at for the rest of your life? Heck, how do you feel about slavery? Why should anyone be forced to do something against their will or nature?
So, your sexual orientation isn't a choice any more than your race is. Therefore homophobia is akin to racism -- the irrational hatred or fear for someone based on something they have no control over.
As for the people who claim they 'hate the act, not the person' -- then why are you thinking about it? I'm sure I and the majority of humanity, g4y or str8, would 'shudder' to think about what YOU do in the bedroom too. And fear of being hit on? In a cruel world such as this, how many g4ys do you think are stupid enough to hit on someone without being 100% sure he's g4y too? Quite frankly, being overly hateful and curious is a little suspicious... anyone remember the end of American Beauty?
I don't know why I just wasted a half hour of my life typing this, because the fact remains that homophobia IS irrational, so no amount of logic will make someone comfortable with homosexuality (just like no amount of persuasion can make someone straight)... people are homophobic because they were brought up that way, because their friends are, because they're scared of that which they don't understand, or because they need a group to aim their life's frustrations at. There may be other reasons I'm overlooking, but one of them is NOT 'because homosexuality is morally wrong'.
My opinion on the actual topic, People will do what people will do I have no negetive or positive standing on the subject.
And to the argument that some people are "born ****," to me that just seems like a birth defect.
P.S. - Yes I have been around g4y people before, so i'm not ignorant on the subject. I had a g4y roomate for several months last year.
it doesnt produce children, so is not 'what was intended'/'what was "meant" to happen' (whatever that means).
Homosexulity is probably MORE common in the animal world than in the human world. Male dogs hump each other all the time, for example. Biology is a branch of science, not a system of values. If anything, biology proves homosexuality is fine; otherwise, it would have been bred out of all species rather than being pretty common. Homosexuals may not have a means of directly propagating the species, but they can still be productive and contributing members of their societies, helping the species in that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to the argument that some people are "born ****," to me that just seems like a birth defect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you assume there's something wrong with homosexuality, then yeah, I imagine it would be a defect in your eyes, much as black skin is a birth defect to Klansmen...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S. - Yes I have been around g4y people before, so i'm not ignorant on the subject. I had a g4y roomate for several months last year.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
guess you didn't like the guy much <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> hope you didn't make him feel TOO crappy...
With regard to being comfortable (here, in other forms, whatever), I think I'll just randomly throw out how I've been treated, as an openly bisexual girl with a female partner. Usually guys get turned on by it or don't care one way or another; there certainly are a lot of guys that are into "lesbian" porn (I use quotes because it's not intended for lesbians, it's girl/girl porn created with men in mind). But within that same group, you'll find vehemently anti-homosexuality (but EXCLUSIVELY anti- male homosexuality) guys.
"Natural?" If we were "natural" creatures we wouldn't be wearing manufactured clothes, cooking our meat... and we certainly wouldn't be "marrying" (as in remaining with a single partner).
As for masculinity; I'm a volunteer and counselor-in-training an a resource center for ***, lesbians, and transgendered; and boy do we have some masculine guys that come in. I mean MASCULINE. There seems to be this misconception that the "majority" of homosexual males are effeminate, and that lesbians are butch. It seems to be that I encounter an even mix of both.
as for "choosing" to be homosexual. Why the HELL would anyone "choose" to be part of a group that's constantly spat upon, treated like dirt, told they're wrong for being who they are, denied basic civil rights and in general hated by society? Even our President is supporting something called "Marriage Protection Week," in which paranoid heterosexuals are basically going out of their way to tell us that marriage is a sacred institution that somehow needs to be "protected" from us evil homo/bisexuals, despite the fact that we can't legally get married ANYWAY.
Discozombie, on that note about having to worry about who you hit on; that's a good point. It's a sad society you live in when children grow up learning -very- quickly on that any sort of abnormal orientation is something to be hidden deep away, or to face the consequences... those consequences being anything from being called names to being tortured and murdered. The situation is even worse for transgendered, who have an incredibly high death-by-murder rate.
And even then, to hit on another person (of the same sex), even if you know that they're ****, is still risky because you have to worry about the OTHER people around you taking notice and, well, doing something about it.
um... yeah, i think that's all I had to say.
/rant
This means homosexuals are <b>not natural</b> We were made this way we do it that way.
I myself have nothing againist g@y people, but something about them just makes me like shutter.
You can reaserch all you wan't but being an homosexual isn't born into you. It's rather you being attracted to the same sex. This ofcourse happens when you are just attracted to the same sex, not that when your were a baby and said "I was born g@y" You can <b>NOT</b> be born ****! If you were born **** you would have been born with the correct <i>parts</i>.
END OF STORY! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
'Fraid not ol boy... ever heard of a hermaphrodite ?