Pardon My Sin, It's Not Mine.
Confuzor
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">What would a mentally insane Jesus do?</div> I've had a collection of newspapers over the summer that I collected which I thought would make for decent discussion. Here's a quick one:
From The Vancouver Sun - Tuesday, July 29, 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>Pedophile lost desire for children after tumour removed</span>
<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><u>Surgical procedure has MDs suspecting link between brain growth and deviant behaviour</span></u>
WASHINGTON - It began as a penchant for pornography. Soon he was scouring the Internet for provocative photos of children. Then he asked his prepubescent stepdaughter for sexual favours, was diagnosed with pedophilia and convicted of child molestation. The night before his sentencing, the 40-year-old turned up in an emergency room in Charlottesville, Va., with a headache, saying he feared he might rape his landlady and kill himself. Dr. Russel Swerdlow, a neurologist, quickly suspected the man’s problems went well beyond pedophilia and the stress of his impending incarceration. An MRI revealed a tumour the size of a golf ball pushing against his brain. When surgeons removed it, the man’s lewd behaviour and urges for sexual contact with children disappeared. The medical team cannot definitively explain why, but Swerdlow suspects the tumour was pressing on a part of the brain that governs behaviour and judgement.
The tumour was squeezing the frontal lobe above the man’s eyes, a highly evolved area that scientists believe is responsible for controlling a person’s impulses.
The changes in the man’s behaviour are similar to those experienced by Phineas Gage, one of the most famous examples of frontal lobe damage. In 1848, an explosion drove a metal rod through the railway worker’s left cheek, through his brain and out the top of his head. His wounds healed in 10 weeks, but he was transformed from a shrewd businessman into a capricious, impatient man who could not control his anger.
The Virginia case, which was recently published in the medical journal <i>Archives of Neurology</i>, raises questions about how tumours affect brain function and, in turn, influence a person’s behaviour and judgement. Swerdlow, an associate professor of neurology with the University of Virginia Health System, said it suggests some people have more control out of staying out of trouble than others.
“Free will to some extent is probably hard wired and, in that sense, isn’t free will at all,” he said. And if that is true, he asked, can the criminal justice system hold everyone equally responsible for their actions?”
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled executing mentally handicapped murderers is unconstitutionally cruel because of their diminished ability to reason and control their urges. Chris Adams of the National Association of Criminal Defence Lawyers suggests some people simply don’t have the frontal lobe capacity to stop what they’re doing. The patient, a highly educated teacher and former corrections officer, had all kinds of theories about his condition. According to the Archives report, he understood his conduct was unacceptable, but continued to act on his sexual impulses anyway. “The pleasure principle overrode” everything else, he said.
After the surgery, he successfully participated in a Sexaholics Anonymous program. He went home about seven months later, after authorities deemed he did not pose a threat to his stepdaughter. But the headaches returned, and the man began collection pornography again. Another MRI showed the tumour was growing back. The doctors operated again and, as before, his urges faded away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- <i> Dangit… I had to type that all from the newspaper. It wasn’t a copy and paste, so I may have made some mistakes. </i>
Once again, this topic is more directly towards Christians. It has long been our tradition to shun sin with a passion. We are bad people because we sin, and in general, we know what we do is wrong, but continue regardless. That is why we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness for our transgressions. Now I’m not saying we blame science for our shortcomings, but what outcome do you expect when you have a golf ball sized tumour affecting the way you think? In the shoes of the pedophile listed above (after surgery), I would obviously abhor the actions that were committed and apologize to the people hurt, but I would not consider it a sin that <b>I</b> committed. It was a horrid sin committed by my body, <b>not by my mind</b>. Just like how guns don't kill people; people kill people. The body is a vessel that does nothing without the decisions of the mind/soul. My mind was lost during the time I was a pedophile. When my mind was regained, I saw the carnage inflicted in my absence, but I didn't do it! In Canadian law, the <i>actus reus</i> alone does not lead to a conviction. The <i>mens rea</i> is just as important for a conviction.
There are people such as these mentioned during Biblical times: demon possessed. There isn’t very much said about the actual individuals who were possessed, but when they were exorcised, I find it impossible to believe that anyone would later on hold to that person his/her sins while he/she was possessed. THOSE sins were committed by the demons, not by them.
These are just the more extreme examples. But what if we take it down a notch? I would think that children must suffer some sort of frontal lobe from parents who were drug addicts, or beat they’re children in the head. Heck, the brain must suffer SOMETHING from sexual abuse even though the brain isn’t usually physically “hurt” in such an abuse. However, we don’t excuse convicted murderers/rapists of their crime if they had an abusive childhood. They may have a ****ed up conscience, or intelligence-handicapped, but society still considers them sane, thus they face consequences that insane individuals don’t. In other words, we hold them responsible for their actions, but who is to judge what degree of mental damage is enough to make you a monster, and not simply criminally insane?
I know in the end, any given sin equates to eternal damnation, but that isn’t the issue at hand here. What is at hand is whether you would still ask for forgiveness and show remorse for crimes that your physical body committed, even without the consent of your mind. I personally don’t think I would; the circumstances we’re beyond my control. In my point in life, I am beyond the point of putting the blame on God for my actions, but if He was to hold me accountable for sins such as these, I would have to say that He Himself played just an equal role for these sins.
<i> 1 Corinthians 10:13 - No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. </i>
- I’m still at a stage in my Christian walk where I am a Doubting Thomas, but I don’t think that this verse was meant to apply to the mentally ill/demon possessed.
<b>Issue of discussion:</b>
- Do you consider the sins you committed your responsibility when you are demon possessed or mentally ill? If not, then what is the dividing line between sins excuseable because of your handicap, and sins that you should be held accountable for even though your mind suffered abuse?
<i>WWJD… without His divine powers and a brain tumour? </i>
<b>POSSIBLE GAME SPOILER:</b>
<span style='color:041E2D'>Hmm... considering my views, maybe that's why I was so upset by the ending of Planescape: Torment, eh? Stupid multiple personalities</span>
From The Vancouver Sun - Tuesday, July 29, 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>Pedophile lost desire for children after tumour removed</span>
<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><u>Surgical procedure has MDs suspecting link between brain growth and deviant behaviour</span></u>
WASHINGTON - It began as a penchant for pornography. Soon he was scouring the Internet for provocative photos of children. Then he asked his prepubescent stepdaughter for sexual favours, was diagnosed with pedophilia and convicted of child molestation. The night before his sentencing, the 40-year-old turned up in an emergency room in Charlottesville, Va., with a headache, saying he feared he might rape his landlady and kill himself. Dr. Russel Swerdlow, a neurologist, quickly suspected the man’s problems went well beyond pedophilia and the stress of his impending incarceration. An MRI revealed a tumour the size of a golf ball pushing against his brain. When surgeons removed it, the man’s lewd behaviour and urges for sexual contact with children disappeared. The medical team cannot definitively explain why, but Swerdlow suspects the tumour was pressing on a part of the brain that governs behaviour and judgement.
The tumour was squeezing the frontal lobe above the man’s eyes, a highly evolved area that scientists believe is responsible for controlling a person’s impulses.
The changes in the man’s behaviour are similar to those experienced by Phineas Gage, one of the most famous examples of frontal lobe damage. In 1848, an explosion drove a metal rod through the railway worker’s left cheek, through his brain and out the top of his head. His wounds healed in 10 weeks, but he was transformed from a shrewd businessman into a capricious, impatient man who could not control his anger.
The Virginia case, which was recently published in the medical journal <i>Archives of Neurology</i>, raises questions about how tumours affect brain function and, in turn, influence a person’s behaviour and judgement. Swerdlow, an associate professor of neurology with the University of Virginia Health System, said it suggests some people have more control out of staying out of trouble than others.
“Free will to some extent is probably hard wired and, in that sense, isn’t free will at all,” he said. And if that is true, he asked, can the criminal justice system hold everyone equally responsible for their actions?”
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled executing mentally handicapped murderers is unconstitutionally cruel because of their diminished ability to reason and control their urges. Chris Adams of the National Association of Criminal Defence Lawyers suggests some people simply don’t have the frontal lobe capacity to stop what they’re doing. The patient, a highly educated teacher and former corrections officer, had all kinds of theories about his condition. According to the Archives report, he understood his conduct was unacceptable, but continued to act on his sexual impulses anyway. “The pleasure principle overrode” everything else, he said.
After the surgery, he successfully participated in a Sexaholics Anonymous program. He went home about seven months later, after authorities deemed he did not pose a threat to his stepdaughter. But the headaches returned, and the man began collection pornography again. Another MRI showed the tumour was growing back. The doctors operated again and, as before, his urges faded away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- <i> Dangit… I had to type that all from the newspaper. It wasn’t a copy and paste, so I may have made some mistakes. </i>
Once again, this topic is more directly towards Christians. It has long been our tradition to shun sin with a passion. We are bad people because we sin, and in general, we know what we do is wrong, but continue regardless. That is why we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness for our transgressions. Now I’m not saying we blame science for our shortcomings, but what outcome do you expect when you have a golf ball sized tumour affecting the way you think? In the shoes of the pedophile listed above (after surgery), I would obviously abhor the actions that were committed and apologize to the people hurt, but I would not consider it a sin that <b>I</b> committed. It was a horrid sin committed by my body, <b>not by my mind</b>. Just like how guns don't kill people; people kill people. The body is a vessel that does nothing without the decisions of the mind/soul. My mind was lost during the time I was a pedophile. When my mind was regained, I saw the carnage inflicted in my absence, but I didn't do it! In Canadian law, the <i>actus reus</i> alone does not lead to a conviction. The <i>mens rea</i> is just as important for a conviction.
There are people such as these mentioned during Biblical times: demon possessed. There isn’t very much said about the actual individuals who were possessed, but when they were exorcised, I find it impossible to believe that anyone would later on hold to that person his/her sins while he/she was possessed. THOSE sins were committed by the demons, not by them.
These are just the more extreme examples. But what if we take it down a notch? I would think that children must suffer some sort of frontal lobe from parents who were drug addicts, or beat they’re children in the head. Heck, the brain must suffer SOMETHING from sexual abuse even though the brain isn’t usually physically “hurt” in such an abuse. However, we don’t excuse convicted murderers/rapists of their crime if they had an abusive childhood. They may have a ****ed up conscience, or intelligence-handicapped, but society still considers them sane, thus they face consequences that insane individuals don’t. In other words, we hold them responsible for their actions, but who is to judge what degree of mental damage is enough to make you a monster, and not simply criminally insane?
I know in the end, any given sin equates to eternal damnation, but that isn’t the issue at hand here. What is at hand is whether you would still ask for forgiveness and show remorse for crimes that your physical body committed, even without the consent of your mind. I personally don’t think I would; the circumstances we’re beyond my control. In my point in life, I am beyond the point of putting the blame on God for my actions, but if He was to hold me accountable for sins such as these, I would have to say that He Himself played just an equal role for these sins.
<i> 1 Corinthians 10:13 - No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. </i>
- I’m still at a stage in my Christian walk where I am a Doubting Thomas, but I don’t think that this verse was meant to apply to the mentally ill/demon possessed.
<b>Issue of discussion:</b>
- Do you consider the sins you committed your responsibility when you are demon possessed or mentally ill? If not, then what is the dividing line between sins excuseable because of your handicap, and sins that you should be held accountable for even though your mind suffered abuse?
<i>WWJD… without His divine powers and a brain tumour? </i>
<b>POSSIBLE GAME SPOILER:</b>
<span style='color:041E2D'>Hmm... considering my views, maybe that's why I was so upset by the ending of Planescape: Torment, eh? Stupid multiple personalities</span>
Comments
You responded rather quickly... did you read the entire post?
I <b>realize</b>, that all have fallen short of the glory of God. What I want to know is whether the above actions are enough to warrant a punishment.
A) You know it is against God's law
B) You do it of your own free will
C) You are mentally sane.
Should the guy be put in front a judge? That's for the courts to decide.
- Do you consider the sins you committed your responsibility when you are demon possessed or mentally ill? If not, then what is the dividing line between sins excuseable because of your handicap, and sins that you should be held accountable for even though your mind suffered abuse?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sin, being that which is not condoned by a certain religion, is completely irrelevant to my existance.
The issue of criminal responsibility is another one. Since the issue at hand is a brain dysfunction that is not the cause of any person, we must decide whether the person can be excused of the crimes once the dysfunction is no longer in existance.
First, we must determine whether the dysfunction was the factor without which the person would not have commited the crime. If so, we must determine whether the person had taken the necessary precautions to avoid the crime. For example, a person who is prone to blackouts due to a tumor and is aware of it would be reasonably expected to avoid driving, if he does not then he is guilty of whatever crime he commits when he blacks out behind the wheel. In the case of the child molester, he was aware of his urges. Since he did not distance himself from his stepdaughter, he is guilty of whatever crime he commited (if any- asking for a sexual favor is not a crime in my book), even if it would not have been commited if he lacked the brain tumor.
The more complex issue is that of a person with a dysfunction which he is not aware of, such as a driver blacking out the first time in his life. Here, I am inclined to still put blame on the accused, because it is his body. If he is not aware of an unknown condition that does not excuse him. If a man thinks a gun is empty, and shoots someone before realizing it is loaded, he is no less guilty than the man who blacks out behind the wheel for the first time. The circumstance may mitigate the punishment, if his case is solid, but it does not make him innocent.
If he realised what he had done, and had repented, that would be ok.
Everyone has sinned, and all sin is bad in God's eyes. The real question is, what do we do once we realise we have sinned? Do we carry on or repent?
Everyone has sinned, and all sin is bad in God's eyes. The real question is, what do we do once we realise we have sinned? Do we carry on or repent? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I mean. Is it even necessary to repent? You're usually sorry for sins you commit. In this case, <i>you</i> are NOT <i>yourself</i>.
The actions disgust you, but they were not committed by <i>you</i>.
Death would be the easy way out. OH FORGIVE ME LORD FOR I HAVE SINNED....right as they inject the poison. He just got away with it. Sin forgiven....However because its a psychological illness I don't think that its 100% his fault. He didn't chose to get cancer/tumor growth.
Unless you want ME to remove a large portion of your hippothalamous and you'll tell me otherwise.
We control our actions, sometimes our views on what is right and wrong are affected. We are ourselves, so it is our fault
Gee that sigs annoying...
Look at it this way, if you believe in god(the christian god or any specific god) you are implying that you believe the Universe was formed in a particular way and a lot of things about that Universe as well as a lot of specifics about god. Saying you don't beleive in god does not even mean that you reject the possibility of their existing some/several god/s in one form or other(just that you don't think there is 'that' god(usually christian)) and says nothing about the charecteristics of the Universe. Believing in a very specific statement takes alot more faith then in a totaly vague one, right?
It takes a lot of faith to believe 154232623423423 is the winning number in a lottery, it takes very little faith to believe that some number other than 154232623423423 is the right one as there are many, many more numbers than that particular one.
However, saying "I don't believe in any god and I believe the universe was formed this way etc. etc." is just as much a statement of faith as saying you believe in god.
It was less than pretty.
Personally, I think it should not matter to God if you are mentally insane. Surely he would see that you cannot think rationally for yourself and would know to accept you out of kindness for the pain you went through in life. Otherwise, are all mentally insane people damned?
It was less than pretty.
Personally, I think it should not matter to God if you are mentally insane. Surely he would see that you cannot think rationally for yourself and would know to accept you out of kindness for the pain you went through in life. Otherwise, are all mentally insane people damned? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Aegeri if God really exists and is what he claims to be - ie justice personified, then I'm sure he will get fair and equitable treatment, nothing more and nothing less.
Unless you want ME to remove a large portion of your hippothalamous and you'll tell me otherwise.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->bottom line:
We control our actions, sometimes our views on what is right and wrong are affected. We are ourselves, so it is our fault
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I find myself disagreeing to both.
I do not consider this the fault of either. To blame God for a calamity like this, I can easily blame God for any piece of world disaster out there. Buying the theory of sin, everything is corrupt in the first place. Torture and suffering does not discriminate; it attacks the deserving and undeserving. Because God imposed it? No, because the human race as a whole brought it down on itself. Natural disasters don't just strike those that deserve it. That's not saying that this man earned such a horrid disease. Sin is contagious, it affects those who don't deserve it to be involved, (i.e., a mother seeing her son sentenced to death for his crime). Thus even the innocents suffer, as this case may quite have well been. However, if, and only if God were to point a finger at me to tell me I was "guilty" of this sin, I would point a finger right back at Him. Thankfully, this is probably how He would judge people, because in cases like these, we <b>don't</b> control our actions.