i think its due to the fact that in 2.0 pub plays most people didnt know how to play... in 1.04 everyone after 2-3 games knew basically how to play the game decently... with the addedd complexity there are people who wont want to play.... i guarantee you that if NS was ported to the Source I would come back to ns.... its just lost its appeal to me... maybe its cause i was so used to those steam hl2 vids i couldnt wait and NS hasnt even said they were porting... if they say they will port and show some hi=res models... wow i will so become constellation!!!!!!!
BTW i wish i could change my forum name... im always Iced_Eagle everywhere else
rofl I have to agree with RoQ a lot. I love/loved NS from the 1st I heard of it (back in October 2002 from then [ReD] founder/leader) and since then I have gone on to being a beta server op/veteran and have had my $.02 spoken, and recently I decided to break off [ReD] and have further slid away from playing NS. 1.04 was the peak and highlight of my time with NS, playing competitively with many skilled clans and having a blast was great. Since then with end game and the changes made, fun and NS havent had much in common as they once did. NS:C was fun at first but like RoQ said ever since the initial play, its been slighty more and more grueling, as you will all shortly find out for yourselves. Don't blame the vets or the devs, we all have done what we could, and with Flayra, real life and other stuff have taken its toll. SO yeah unless a surge in activity (like it once had) I do not see NS being played like other mods in the future. Also to nay-say they nay-sayers, true "pubbers" will always outnumber clans and clan play, but it is the competitive nature and clan scene, that keep a mod alive and breathing. Take any number of FPS or team-based games out on the market today and see for yourselves.
I've got to admit that saying clanners breaking up and leaving leaves only unskilled players is a good way to insult people who don't clan impy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS is dying imo, my buddies and I haven't gotten together to play it for the longest time. Now i'm playing the NWN expansion/ FA 2.8 / TFC <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well for one i dont have much time on my hands to play a game that will leave me roaming around my base - ex: Never ending games!!! grrr
and second i really dont think ns is as good as it was...before it was REALLY fun. Now its just too short and boring. in 1.0 it was really long tense fun games. in 2.0 everyone is overpowered in a way(short games for aliens = extra boost)
I loved it when i was the first to say "IM GORGING!!!11" <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> - Now Everyone can gorge(which is ok) but i liked it when there was only one gorge 'commanding' the team.
I loved it when i was the first to say "IM COMMING!!!@" <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> - Now we have to force someone into the chair because its so hard to comm with these short games-marines are too slow.
<!--QuoteBegin--xl-cow+Oct 16 2003, 06:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xl-cow @ Oct 16 2003, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wouldn't base it on Clans.
Clans are 90% more likely to break up and get angry at everything due to clan politics.
I think when NS and steam integration is here - you'll see a fresh flow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are new people and new clans. However, I am worried about the clan community. roq's post about the lack of competition is too true. New clans (cough mine) don't stand a chance, and the veteran clans are tired of playing the same people. If NSDraft is successful (unlikely, but under the right leadership, very possible). On the other hand you've got the non-competetive players, who are flooding in but become discouraged due to the gameplay on most servers (omg nub comm gg). IMHO something should be done about pub balance, marine wise.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Games die, new ones are reborn.
NS? It's still fun. When the community dies, I will probably have found other games to play and grown tired of NS. And I'm not afraid of it. I've had a lot of good times playing NS, but all good things must come to an end.
However, I believe that NS will live for a long time still ... Don't worry.
As far as mass play goes... NS will probalby die a couple of weeks into HL2s release, however for those of us who still played quake world years into half-lifes lifetime, it will live on.
I think the real problem is that commanding has become more of a chore, in 1.04 it was always "I wanna comm let me comm!" now its, someone comm! we need a comm!
I too believe that NS is dying. I haven't (believe it or not) been playing it for the past 2 weeks. Probably because I just got bored with it. It's always the same things, EVERY GAME.
Aliens : Half of the team go Gorge and built RTs everywhere, the other half rush, after that get a dc/mc/sc and save for hive, then get the second hive, onos rush, win. (seems to be the popular strategy <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Marines : Wait 3 minutes until someone finally goes into the command chair, get an IP, Armory, and TF up fairly close together so the TF can defend all of the buildings once electrified, go to the nearest RT to put it up, fail at it, either get killed by the skulk rush or the upcoming onos rush in nearly 10 minutes.
I also have more interest any more in newer games. Also, certain leagues are losing lots of players. UGL, for instance, has a pretty big innactive clan list.
Another reason I think people are leaving is because the new players coming from Deathmatch/Non-Strategy games like CS or Unreal Tournament. It is obviously a smaller amount of people then the experienced/somewhat experienced players in the community, though the aggrevation created from one certain [NO-CD]NSPlayer could drive 4 people out of a server.
GG Long Drawn Out Posts GG <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
In 1.04 I got into a fight with some dude about who was gonna <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> - I called it before the round started and he gorges, and he's an admin, so, well, it ended up in a lot of cursing on hera.
Personally, and if you ask any professional game designer, they'll more or less tell you the same thing, I think designing a game with CLAN PLAY as FIRST priority, and PUB PLAY SECOND is a sign of... what's the word. Ignorance? Making the game fun for 20 people so it totally sucks for all 800 other players is STUPID.
Game design should ALWAYS put the casual gamer FIRST and hardcore clanners second. Why? Because casual players outnumber clan player by what? 20 to 1? 30?
Example: Tribes. Probably the most intensive clan-play game EVER. (Don't think so? Go play, Tribes has the most incredibly devoted group of hardcore players I've ever seen) Tribes:Vengeance, the latest title that they're working on... guess what?
I asked Thrax, Marweas, about if the game was being designed with clans first, or pubs first.
Even a game with as fanatical and huge a clanbase as Tribes is being designed PUBS first CLANS SECOND.
The whole 'Veteran' idea is terrible, and a waste of time. Hell, most of them cheat anyway. You never hear the vets or playtesters complaining about the game. Why? Because it was DESIGNED with THEM in mind. Then they tell all the PUB players that they're noobs, they're idiots, they're totally WRONG about the game.
Example: The fade. The fade is expensive. The fade is INCREDIBLY hard to use. The Fade doesn't nearly MATCH the strength of midgame marines, but the reason it seems to is: the only people that master the fade are so good with it, they could probably beat level 3 HA/HMG/Shotguns.
Instead of Fade being a fun to use assault class, it's the **** red-head stepchild of the alien team: You're lucky if more then one person ever goes fade. I've seen people complain about the lack of purpose of a fade. What do the vets tell us? "OMG U NUB U SUK I HPE U DIE IRL GO WATCH A CAL MATCH NUBCAEK OMG OMG WTH!!!!1!1!!1"
There's 2 fade players: Those that totally OWN the entire marine team with it, and those that go fade and die in two seconds. Me? I own the entire marine team. Then I die, then I go onos. GG marines.
Why? Because Flayra decided pleasing the handful of clans was more important the pleasing the horde of pubs.
Note: No disrespect to Flayra, I love this game with every bone in my body but...
for the love of god get a clue, man! It's NOT cool that everyone quits the game when bast, mineshaft, or lost come up. It's NOT cool that only 1 in 20 players knows how to command, and only 1 in 50 of THOSE actually ENJOY it. It's NOT cool that the logic behind balancing certain aspects is: 'You're a total n00b and you should go watch a CAL match'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The whole 'Veteran' idea is terrible, and a waste of time. Hell, most of them cheat anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think thats a bit uncalled for.
I see where you are coming from tho, The 2.0 res system for aliens is a bit silly really, there should be more than simply having 100 res to evolve to onos in my opinion, it is increadably easy to gain 100 res... I was a fan of the 1.0 system of hive dependencies, kind of said "look im a single hive, do you expect me to spawn all you skulks AND handle an onos on top of that!".. infact... /me goes of to S&I forum
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkFrost+Oct 16 2003, 10:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ Oct 16 2003, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The whole 'Veteran' idea is terrible, and a waste of time. Hell, most of them cheat anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think thats a bit uncalled for.
I see where you are coming from tho, The 2.0 res system for aliens is a bit silly really, there should be more than simply having 100 res to evolve to onos in my opinion, it is increadably easy to gain 100 res... I was a fan of the 1.0 system of hive dependencies, kind of said "look im a single hive, do you expect me to spawn all you skulks AND handle an onos on top of that!".. infact... /me goes of to S&I forum <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's really no secret that many verterans do cheat or abuse their rank, or if they don't, many would if they had the chance. It's also no secret that most of 'cri' cheats as well...
Maybe it's just in my experience.... but telling clan players that they get to more or less dictate how a game is played, and on top of it all get special privledges for it... it's like performing lab tests on the same damn monkies over and over and over. Your results are going to be so screwed up it's going to be no where NEAR what the results would REALLY be like with FRESH monkies.
Aye, some people have realized that the NS clan scene is lacking for awhile now, and this is why some of us have decided to do something about it rather than sit, watch, and cry as the game is destroyed.
Also, I wouldn't say 1.04 is more fun than 2.0; 1.04 was fun, but it got old fast, 2.0 is fun, but it's just not... more than enough fun to keep everyone interested. Proof of this was just look at the 1.04 clan scene. It was terrible aside from a couple of diehards. And it's just like that now. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
edited October 2003
I think the biggest problem is that, at its core, NS is really both an FPS game and an RTS - not one or the other, but both, and just as much one as the other. Most of the people that play NS are FPS gamers, people that own Half-Life. FPS gamers will tend to think of NS as an FPS game with some strategy elements, and thus do not play the game with an eye towards the strategy elements. Some could be turned off by the fact that NS makes you (gasp!) think at least a little.
Similarly, some RTS gamers also play NS. These people think of NS as a strategy game, where the best micromanager and quick thinker can win. They may be turned off to NS because they quickly realize that it requires a decent amount of FPS skill and a lot of teamwork to win.
People that really understand that NS is both an FPS and an RTS, and play it as such, are the ones that most appreciate the game and are most loyal to it. However, they understand that what they perceive to be NS's greatest strength - its fusion of FPS and RTS in a fun package - is also the game's greatest weakness. The fusion of the two game elements makes it difficult for diehard FPS and RTS fans to relate to it. This weakens the game by diminishing its potential popularity and thus limits the size of the community.
I will always be a fan of NS and the NS community. The professional and open manner in which the team develops the game, the professional quality of the game, and, course, the fun of the game and its community will always attract me.
I haven't played for a week cause I only have 56k temporarily. I'll be playing NS again when my dsl gets back up in about 1 1/2 wks. See? NS hasn't died; I just haven't played. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, who leaves when lost comes on?? Lost is cool.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Oct 16 2003, 11:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Oct 16 2003, 11:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's really no secret that many verterans do cheat or abuse their rank, or if they don't, many would if they had the chance. It's also no secret that most of 'cri' cheats as well... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</span>
You do know that #cri. is one of the few clans that completely advacates C-D for every single CAL match, right? And they prefer only C-D servers to scrim on? Is this some kind of cover up for them? I've played with #cri. for a little while, and I can tell you from experience, that they do in no way hack...
Anyhow, note to mods:
Don't lock this thread. This has to come out sooner or later. Better to let the community vent rather than pent it up more.
And back on topic:
Designing a game for pub play is stupid. People wanna take the game to the next level; not play it and see it explosed as a cheap game with no substance.
What I'd like to see done sometime:
Flayra releases a build.
The PT's take it and make a list of proposed changes to make,
as well as the vets.
Flay then makes two builds, one for each of them. Then the two builds are tested, and out of the two everyone can see what works better or which one is more fun etc. The best would be then taken from each of the two builds, made into a new build, and the process starts all over again.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 16 2003, 10:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 16 2003, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Oct 16 2003, 11:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Oct 16 2003, 11:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's really no secret that many verterans do cheat or abuse their rank, or if they don't, many would if they had the chance. It's also no secret that most of 'cri' cheats as well... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do know that #cri. is one of the few clans that completely advacates C-D for every single CAL match, right? And they prefer only C-D servers to scrim on? Is this some kind of cover up for them? I've played with #cri. for a little while, and I can tell you from experience, that they do in no way hack...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, what are you talking about? I've played with a number of #cri players and none of them deemed cheating to me to date. Ok I know at first glance some insanely good players look like cheating, but if you play with them for a while you'll realize they too make mistakes. The only reason they seem to be cheating to you is because they catch your attention with some crazy moves, but you won't pay any attention to them at first if they're not making these moves and being careless. In another words, the first things you catch about these players is that they're doing these things without realizing that they may have some bad rounds prior to you noticing them. So you assume that they have been making these shots throughout the game. Got it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But I agree with you teflon that there is really a huge gap between the average player and the good players. Winning games and losing games really depend more on where the good players are, than where the 'teamwork' is. Obviously skill level problems will arise from this (or teamstacking). So what you get is people lose round after rounds so they're discouraged to continue. To add insult to punishment, you're right I've seen people give verbal abuse against newish players and that will turn them away, and that was frequent in other builds as well. Ns_bast is semi true but thats an map issue, while lost and mineshaft is pretty even imho.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 16 2003, 10:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 16 2003, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Designing a game for pub play is stupid. People wanna take the game to the next level; not play it and see it explosed as a cheap game with no substance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All offense intended: You haven't got a clue. Do you talk with game developers about this? I have. You most likely haven't. Chances are you just made that up for the sake of arguing without putting a SINGLE synapse of thought into what you're saying.
Show me <b>one game</b> that was designed with the intent of highly organized, closely knit, hardcore, high-skilled players playing together FIRST, and casual, 'fun' play thrown in as an afterthought, that is still marginally successful in the grand scale of gaming. I'm not talking about games that are FUN in a clan environment (BF1942, Counter-Strike), I'm talking about games like NS, where no no matter what, you'll see massive flaws that were put there to make CLAN play more exciting for clanners. (Most obviously: COMMANDER MODE, the FADE, etc)
It's like making a game with only one difficulty level, and that level gives the player 10 health, a pistol, 11,999 bullets and 12,000 enemies.
It's like making a car that requires the customer to assemble half of the transmission before they can use it.
It's like making a book written backwards, upside down, in Yiddish, and selling it in Canada.
There are people that can accomplish it, but the majority of people are going to go somewhere else for a much more enjoyable experience.
And they seem to be doing JUST THAT.
Natural Strike, Counter Selection, whatever you call it, Combat WILL breathe new life into NS for a short time. However, it'll capture it's OWN select group of players that think lower of 'classic NS' players, and vice versa. It'll split the community.
The only thing I can think of that'll save NS is if a casual player can join, have fun, and go away with a smile.
Not join, scream and pound at his keyboard in frustration, and constantly be overwhelmed by HA or Onos. Or curse and 'quit;' in irritation as the marines continually camp the hive spawn points. Or join a game just to have it end in 2 minutes because the entire marine team F4d. Or take his hard-earned resources and plunk it into a Fade, hoping to save his team, just so a lousy 10 res shotgun can kill him in 2 hits.
<b>People are simple, Flayra</b>. The casual player will know balance. However, he'll be thinking: 'A 10 res shotgun is LESS then a 50 res fade. Therefore a fade is better!'
He'll be thinking: 'Gee, I did pretty good in Starcraft, except now my units are smart. This can't be so bad', not: 'I think I'll climb in this chair just to collapse in frustration without a clue as to what I'm supposed to do next, because I don't have hours and hours and countless matches of experience'.
<!--QuoteBegin--CHAMOIS+Oct 16 2003, 10:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CHAMOIS @ Oct 16 2003, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is pretty much dead for me. I only play it because theres nothing else out there that interests me.
I think alot of people are on standby for Half Life 2.
Teflon, you're not a bright kid. If people wanted to hear your pent up aggression from sucking at video games they'd read your blog. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How ironic you're a veteran. What'd I tell you about the elitism, the arrogance, the flaming, and the general attitude of nearly all vets?
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Oct 16 2003, 10:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Oct 16 2003, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How ironic you're a veteran. What'd I tell you about the elitism, the arrogance, the flaming, and the general attitude of nearly all vets? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's not all the vets... Just PJ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
BTW i wish i could change my forum name... im always Iced_Eagle everywhere else
1.04 was the peak and highlight of my time with NS, playing competitively with many skilled clans and having a blast was great. Since then with end game and the changes made, fun and NS havent had much in common as they once did. NS:C was fun at first but like RoQ said ever since the initial play, its been slighty more and more grueling, as you will all shortly find out for yourselves. Don't blame the vets or the devs, we all have done what we could, and with Flayra, real life and other stuff have taken its toll. SO yeah unless a surge in activity (like it once had) I do not see NS being played like other mods in the future.
Also to nay-say they nay-sayers, true "pubbers" will always outnumber clans and clan play, but it is the competitive nature and clan scene, that keep a mod alive and breathing. Take any number of FPS or team-based games out on the market today and see for yourselves.
Well for one i dont have much time on my hands to play a game that will leave me roaming around my base - ex: Never ending games!!! grrr
and second i really dont think ns is as good as it was...before it was REALLY fun. Now its just too short and boring. in 1.0 it was really long tense fun games. in 2.0 everyone is overpowered in a way(short games for aliens = extra boost)
I loved it when i was the first to say "IM GORGING!!!11" <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> - Now Everyone can gorge(which is ok) but i liked it when there was only one gorge 'commanding' the team.
I loved it when i was the first to say "IM COMMING!!!@" <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> - Now we have to force someone into the chair because its so hard to comm with these short games-marines are too slow.
What im trying to say is --- NS isnt as fun.
Clans are 90% more likely to break up and get angry at everything due to clan politics.
I think when NS and steam integration is here - you'll see a fresh flow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are new people and new clans. However, I am worried about the clan community. roq's post about the lack of competition is too true. New clans (cough mine) don't stand a chance, and the veteran clans are tired of playing the same people. If NSDraft is successful (unlikely, but under the right leadership, very possible). On the other hand you've got the non-competetive players, who are flooding in but become discouraged due to the gameplay on most servers (omg nub comm gg). IMHO something should be done about pub balance, marine wise.
NS? It's still fun. When the community dies, I will probably have found other games to play and grown tired of NS. And I'm not afraid of it. I've had a lot of good times playing NS, but all good things must come to an end.
However, I believe that NS will live for a long time still ... Don't worry.
Sady NS came to us a good 2 years too late
Aliens : Half of the team go Gorge and built RTs everywhere, the other half rush, after that get a dc/mc/sc and save for hive, then get the second hive, onos rush, win. (seems to be the popular strategy <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Marines : Wait 3 minutes until someone finally goes into the command chair, get an IP, Armory, and TF up fairly close together so the TF can defend all of the buildings once electrified, go to the nearest RT to put it up, fail at it, either get killed by the skulk rush or the upcoming onos rush in nearly 10 minutes.
I also have more interest any more in newer games. Also, certain leagues are losing lots of players. UGL, for instance, has a pretty big innactive clan list.
Another reason I think people are leaving is because the new players coming from Deathmatch/Non-Strategy games like CS or Unreal Tournament. It is obviously a smaller amount of people then the experienced/somewhat experienced players in the community, though the aggrevation created from one certain [NO-CD]NSPlayer could drive 4 people out of a server.
GG Long Drawn Out Posts GG <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
Game design should ALWAYS put the casual gamer FIRST and hardcore clanners second. Why? Because casual players outnumber clan player by what? 20 to 1? 30?
Example: Tribes. Probably the most intensive clan-play game EVER. (Don't think so? Go play, Tribes has the most incredibly devoted group of hardcore players I've ever seen) Tribes:Vengeance, the latest title that they're working on... guess what?
I asked Thrax, Marweas, about if the game was being designed with clans first, or pubs first.
Even a game with as fanatical and huge a clanbase as Tribes is being designed PUBS first CLANS SECOND.
The whole 'Veteran' idea is terrible, and a waste of time. Hell, most of them cheat anyway. You never hear the vets or playtesters complaining about the game. Why? Because it was DESIGNED with THEM in mind. Then they tell all the PUB players that they're noobs, they're idiots, they're totally WRONG about the game.
Example: The fade. The fade is expensive. The fade is INCREDIBLY hard to use. The Fade doesn't nearly MATCH the strength of midgame marines, but the reason it seems to is: the only people that master the fade are so good with it, they could probably beat level 3 HA/HMG/Shotguns.
Instead of Fade being a fun to use assault class, it's the **** red-head stepchild of the alien team: You're lucky if more then one person ever goes fade. I've seen people complain about the lack of purpose of a fade. What do the vets tell us? "OMG U NUB U SUK I HPE U DIE IRL GO WATCH A CAL MATCH NUBCAEK OMG OMG WTH!!!!1!1!!1"
There's 2 fade players: Those that totally OWN the entire marine team with it, and those that go fade and die in two seconds. Me? I own the entire marine team. Then I die, then I go onos. GG marines.
Why? Because Flayra decided pleasing the handful of clans was more important the pleasing the horde of pubs.
for the love of god get a clue, man! It's NOT cool that everyone quits the game when bast, mineshaft, or lost come up. It's NOT cool that only 1 in 20 players knows how to command, and only 1 in 50 of THOSE actually ENJOY it. It's NOT cool that the logic behind balancing certain aspects is: 'You're a total n00b and you should go watch a CAL match'.
I think thats a bit uncalled for.
I see where you are coming from tho, The 2.0 res system for aliens is a bit silly really, there should be more than simply having 100 res to evolve to onos in my opinion, it is increadably easy to gain 100 res... I was a fan of the 1.0 system of hive dependencies, kind of said "look im a single hive, do you expect me to spawn all you skulks AND handle an onos on top of that!".. infact... /me goes of to S&I forum
I think thats a bit uncalled for.
I see where you are coming from tho, The 2.0 res system for aliens is a bit silly really, there should be more than simply having 100 res to evolve to onos in my opinion, it is increadably easy to gain 100 res... I was a fan of the 1.0 system of hive dependencies, kind of said "look im a single hive, do you expect me to spawn all you skulks AND handle an onos on top of that!".. infact... /me goes of to S&I forum <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's really no secret that many verterans do cheat or abuse their rank, or if they don't, many would if they had the chance. It's also no secret that most of 'cri' cheats as well...
Maybe it's just in my experience.... but telling clan players that they get to more or less dictate how a game is played, and on top of it all get special privledges for it... it's like performing lab tests on the same damn monkies over and over and over. Your results are going to be so screwed up it's going to be no where NEAR what the results would REALLY be like with FRESH monkies.
Also, I wouldn't say 1.04 is more fun than 2.0; 1.04 was fun, but it got old fast, 2.0 is fun, but it's just not... more than enough fun to keep everyone interested. Proof of this was just look at the 1.04 clan scene. It was terrible aside from a couple of diehards. And it's just like that now. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Similarly, some RTS gamers also play NS. These people think of NS as a strategy game, where the best micromanager and quick thinker can win. They may be turned off to NS because they quickly realize that it requires a decent amount of FPS skill and a lot of teamwork to win.
People that really understand that NS is both an FPS and an RTS, and play it as such, are the ones that most appreciate the game and are most loyal to it. However, they understand that what they perceive to be NS's greatest strength - its fusion of FPS and RTS in a fun package - is also the game's greatest weakness. The fusion of the two game elements makes it difficult for diehard FPS and RTS fans to relate to it. This weakens the game by diminishing its potential popularity and thus limits the size of the community.
I will always be a fan of NS and the NS community. The professional and open manner in which the team develops the game, the professional quality of the game, and, course, the fun of the game and its community will always attract me.
I haven't played for a week cause I only have 56k temporarily. I'll be playing NS again when my dsl gets back up in about 1 1/2 wks. See? NS hasn't died; I just haven't played. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, who leaves when lost comes on?? Lost is cool.
and here it is, my attemp at "zesting" NS a bit
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</span>
You do know that #cri. is one of the few clans that completely advacates C-D for every single CAL match, right? And they prefer only C-D servers to scrim on? Is this some kind of cover up for them? I've played with #cri. for a little while, and I can tell you from experience, that they do in no way hack...
Anyhow, note to mods:
Don't lock this thread. This has to come out sooner or later. Better to let the community vent rather than pent it up more.
And back on topic:
Designing a game for pub play is stupid. People wanna take the game to the next level; not play it and see it explosed as a cheap game with no substance.
What I'd like to see done sometime:
Flayra releases a build.
The PT's take it and make a list of proposed changes to make,
as well as the vets.
Flay then makes two builds, one for each of them. Then the two builds are tested, and out of the two everyone can see what works better or which one is more fun etc. The best would be then taken from each of the two builds, made into a new build, and the process starts all over again.
I do however think that basing a game on pub play first is the obvious move.
You do know that #cri. is one of the few clans that completely advacates C-D for every single CAL match, right? And they prefer only C-D servers to scrim on? Is this some kind of cover up for them? I've played with #cri. for a little while, and I can tell you from experience, that they do in no way hack...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, what are you talking about? I've played with a number of #cri players and none of them deemed cheating to me to date. Ok I know at first glance some insanely good players look like cheating, but if you play with them for a while you'll realize they too make mistakes. The only reason they seem to be cheating to you is because they catch your attention with some crazy moves, but you won't pay any attention to them at first if they're not making these moves and being careless. In another words, the first things you catch about these players is that they're doing these things without realizing that they may have some bad rounds prior to you noticing them. So you assume that they have been making these shots throughout the game. Got it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But I agree with you teflon that there is really a huge gap between the average player and the good players. Winning games and losing games really depend more on where the good players are, than where the 'teamwork' is. Obviously skill level problems will arise from this (or teamstacking). So what you get is people lose round after rounds so they're discouraged to continue. To add insult to punishment, you're right I've seen people give verbal abuse against newish players and that will turn them away, and that was frequent in other builds as well. Ns_bast is semi true but thats an map issue, while lost and mineshaft is pretty even imho.
I think alot of people are on standby for Half Life 2.
Teflon, you're not a bright kid. If people wanted to hear your pent up aggression from sucking at video games they'd read your blog.
All offense intended: You haven't got a clue. Do you talk with game developers about this? I have. You most likely haven't. Chances are you just made that up for the sake of arguing without putting a SINGLE synapse of thought into what you're saying.
Show me <b>one game</b> that was designed with the intent of highly organized, closely knit, hardcore, high-skilled players playing together FIRST, and casual, 'fun' play thrown in as an afterthought, that is still marginally successful in the grand scale of gaming. I'm not talking about games that are FUN in a clan environment (BF1942, Counter-Strike), I'm talking about games like NS, where no no matter what, you'll see massive flaws that were put there to make CLAN play more exciting for clanners. (Most obviously: COMMANDER MODE, the FADE, etc)
It's like making a game with only one difficulty level, and that level gives the player 10 health, a pistol, 11,999 bullets and 12,000 enemies.
It's like making a car that requires the customer to assemble half of the transmission before they can use it.
It's like making a book written backwards, upside down, in Yiddish, and selling it in Canada.
There are people that can accomplish it, but the majority of people are going to go somewhere else for a much more enjoyable experience.
And they seem to be doing JUST THAT.
Natural Strike, Counter Selection, whatever you call it, Combat WILL breathe new life into NS for a short time. However, it'll capture it's OWN select group of players that think lower of 'classic NS' players, and vice versa. It'll split the community.
The only thing I can think of that'll save NS is if a casual player can join, have fun, and go away with a smile.
Not join, scream and pound at his keyboard in frustration, and constantly be overwhelmed by HA or Onos. Or curse and 'quit;' in irritation as the marines continually camp the hive spawn points. Or join a game just to have it end in 2 minutes because the entire marine team F4d. Or take his hard-earned resources and plunk it into a Fade, hoping to save his team, just so a lousy 10 res shotgun can kill him in 2 hits.
<b>People are simple, Flayra</b>. The casual player will know balance. However, he'll be thinking: 'A 10 res shotgun is LESS then a 50 res fade. Therefore a fade is better!'
He'll be thinking: 'Gee, I did pretty good in Starcraft, except now my units are smart. This can't be so bad', not: 'I think I'll climb in this chair just to collapse in frustration without a clue as to what I'm supposed to do next, because I don't have hours and hours and countless matches of experience'.
I think alot of people are on standby for Half Life 2.
Teflon, you're not a bright kid. If people wanted to hear your pent up aggression from sucking at video games they'd read your blog. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How ironic you're a veteran. What'd I tell you about the elitism, the arrogance, the flaming, and the general attitude of nearly all vets?
No, it's not all the vets... Just PJ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Keep telling yourself we're all cheats and liars who will do anything to get ahead, if it makes you feel better about yourself.
Yeah, you're a real authority on good attitude, mang