Why Do You Hate Valve?
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Anime Encyclopedia Join Date: 2002-08-08 Member: 1111Members, Constellation
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<b>RULE: ONLY POST HERE IF YOU HAVE A LEGITIMATE REASON FOR HATING VALVE AND HAVE INFO TO BACK IT UP</b>
This is going to be a very touchy subject.... so try not to take this into HL2 leak territory please...
I hate Valve because they killed the DoD community.
I have been with the DoD community for quite a few years. I have watched DoD go though the Alpha and Beta series to Version 1. I have seen many people come and many people leave. I have gone from user, to peon, to op (For a very short stint) in the IRC channel, and I can safely say without a shadow of a doubt Valve killed the community.
The DoD IRC Channel and the DoD Forums used to be a great place to hang out, the devs talked regularly, there were regular threads filled with comedy gold, everyone got along more or less and all in all it was a pretty sweet and open place to hang out.
Hell, there wasn't a day that didn't go buy that the devs weren't in the channel talking and giving out info and pics on new versions of DoD. You had Mugsy, Billy, Weenie, Axis, Agent, Xerent, Arcturus coming in... having fun... every single day. Now we're lucky if we get graced with 5 minutes of their time... a month...
See, I loved the old school DoD community. I practically knew all the cool people, the only real way to enjoy it was to hang out in IRC and Random Nonsense, and just arse around with each other. This lasted quite a few years, then it happened very subtley. The devs started coming in a little less, we started getting less info and rumours started to fly that DoD had been picked up by Valve. Initially they denied the claims, but ever so slowly the devs just didn't come online anymore.... and then the community went to the hell house. There was bitter infighting between the admins and a few of the old school users, people got banned, words were said, insurrections were made and stuff like the Random Nonsense forum got shut forever...
Then DoD was officially announced to be picked up for Valve. Frankly I was pretty happy that the guys were finally going to see some money for their hard work, but that didn't mean I wasn't ticked off with Valve. I few pieces of info were passed back and forth via pm (Which I can't reveal) and I gradually grew more and more bitter at the way Valve were doing things to DoD as a whole. The official DoD site launched and that was pretty much it for the community. No places to talk about any subject we pleased, we had to put up with "Latest game created by Valve, DoD!" shoved in our face, and we had all grown bitter and angry with each other. I only talk to 2 devs anymore (Arcturus and Xerent, both mappers) and we remain pretty friendly... but it has simply devolved into "Hi Arc." "Hi Inf"
The heart and soul of the community is gone.
All because Valve picked up DoD to publish officially.
So yeah... that is my main reason for hating Valve. There are others to be sure, but out of all the thorns in my side this one is by far the largest.
So let's hear it. Why do you hate Valve?
This is going to be a very touchy subject.... so try not to take this into HL2 leak territory please...
I hate Valve because they killed the DoD community.
I have been with the DoD community for quite a few years. I have watched DoD go though the Alpha and Beta series to Version 1. I have seen many people come and many people leave. I have gone from user, to peon, to op (For a very short stint) in the IRC channel, and I can safely say without a shadow of a doubt Valve killed the community.
The DoD IRC Channel and the DoD Forums used to be a great place to hang out, the devs talked regularly, there were regular threads filled with comedy gold, everyone got along more or less and all in all it was a pretty sweet and open place to hang out.
Hell, there wasn't a day that didn't go buy that the devs weren't in the channel talking and giving out info and pics on new versions of DoD. You had Mugsy, Billy, Weenie, Axis, Agent, Xerent, Arcturus coming in... having fun... every single day. Now we're lucky if we get graced with 5 minutes of their time... a month...
See, I loved the old school DoD community. I practically knew all the cool people, the only real way to enjoy it was to hang out in IRC and Random Nonsense, and just arse around with each other. This lasted quite a few years, then it happened very subtley. The devs started coming in a little less, we started getting less info and rumours started to fly that DoD had been picked up by Valve. Initially they denied the claims, but ever so slowly the devs just didn't come online anymore.... and then the community went to the hell house. There was bitter infighting between the admins and a few of the old school users, people got banned, words were said, insurrections were made and stuff like the Random Nonsense forum got shut forever...
Then DoD was officially announced to be picked up for Valve. Frankly I was pretty happy that the guys were finally going to see some money for their hard work, but that didn't mean I wasn't ticked off with Valve. I few pieces of info were passed back and forth via pm (Which I can't reveal) and I gradually grew more and more bitter at the way Valve were doing things to DoD as a whole. The official DoD site launched and that was pretty much it for the community. No places to talk about any subject we pleased, we had to put up with "Latest game created by Valve, DoD!" shoved in our face, and we had all grown bitter and angry with each other. I only talk to 2 devs anymore (Arcturus and Xerent, both mappers) and we remain pretty friendly... but it has simply devolved into "Hi Arc." "Hi Inf"
The heart and soul of the community is gone.
All because Valve picked up DoD to publish officially.
So yeah... that is my main reason for hating Valve. There are others to be sure, but out of all the thorns in my side this one is by far the largest.
So let's hear it. Why do you hate Valve?
Comments
I really couldn't say that I <i>hate</i> Valve, but I don't like them much thats for sure. My first reason for this is the lack of porting to other OSs. This wasn't a big deal until after they pretty much sat on their **** for a few years while the mod community sold games for them. I also heard that they killed the Mac port at some point or some bogus reason, though I can't confirm that. HL did get support on Linux/x86 with WINE, so at least there was one 'port', but then valve decided to do this Steam thing, thus killing the support until WINE catches up.
Which brings up reason #2: Steam. I don't know why people like the idea of Steam as a whole. Sure, the sound bug fix (really, like hitting esc and resuming the game was too hard or something) and the new built in server browser a nifty, but it comes at the price of no longer being able to run HL through a NAT router (AFAIK, I have asked about this and never got a response) and increased lag and system requirements.
Then theres reason #3: Gabes letter asking for help from the community. While a nice idea in theory, Gabe has no one but himself to blame for the loss of that stuff he lost. And to expect the community to help him when his company has delayed the release of HL2 and TF2 so far past their initial release dates that DNF people were afraid of losing their title as biggest vaporware developer seems to me a bit arrogant. Though, to his credit (sorta), the community did seem eager to help, perhaps because the incident could further delay the release of HL2, which will likely cause vicious rioting.
<a href='http://www.dayofdefeat.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20200' target='_blank'>Another satisfied oldie</a>
You're figge? @_0
Let us pray that for our sake NS never gets 'bought out'. And let us pray for the dev's sake that they do.
Anyways.... I remember dod_hill with fondness... especially when it had the big cannon in the earlier versions. Euoplocehalus was, at one time, trying to make a copy that worked in the newer versions, but has yet to produce anything. I remember the old blood too, the way it splattered out from the body, good stuff. And the moving-while-zoomed-in sniping really took alot from the game, made it much more like CS AWP wars.
Let me ask you something (like you have a choice <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ), why don't you hate them for this?
I'm not angry at the team because they are all good blokes, every single one of them. I have talked to them as a group and individually, and you really can't blame them for wanting to get money for their years of free work... I simply do not like the company that publish them because the way they do things.... kills communities.
What happened to DoD is pretty normal really... when you're making something for fun and because you enjoy it or other people enjoy it then you'll generally be all fun and giggles too. But once you turn something to profit you're doing something you're getting paid for. In most people this'll make the whole thing so much more serious; when working most people get a guilt complex if they're having fun because work doesn't = fun in their minds. End result? Stuff much like what you described =s
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So, you ARE my type. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ok anyway, I don't hate them, and here's why. Weather their business practices are ethical or not we all have to agree we do enjoy the end product, even though you may not play Half-Life per se everyday, like me, lol, but you ARE using a part of it by playing any mod, and especially any retail supported mod.
Here's why I [SIZE=14]<b>Dislike</b> Valve. I do not like how they act to be part of the community as one of us, then proceed to keep us in the dark. Regardless of what their lawyers asked, you can at least say something. They have YET to say anything. I feel I have been mislead, twice now, and will be mislead again.
1.)Half-Life 2's original delay
2.)The fashion that the delay was presented.
3.)About Half-Life 2 itself. Negative things that were suspected, were confirmed by the leak. (There is however a reason for this not to be true but I cannot discuss it on the boards.)
Basiscally it boils down to, I don't want to be exploited when they expect my $50. GG Valve, you better start earning that $50 quick before now and X-Mas.
The tradeoff between community involvement and focusing on hardcore development had to be made for NS to progress. I dearly miss the old days in which you could pop into IRC and have a jolly chat with the dev team. The days in which your idea posted in the S&I forums stood a good chance of becoming part of the game. The days in which comprox banned me for no readily apparent reason for days on end...
I have one thing to remind the ungrateful sods that have posted in this thread:
Valve gave you <i>Half-Life</i>.
Personally I could forgive them for any failings because of this amazing contribution to the gaming universe. Not only the initial release but the ongoing and <b>non-obligatory</b> support of modding teams.
Cut the guys some slack. They've been dealt an enormous blow by recent events and the last thing they need is a bunch of ill-informed and spiteful (/me dons had of self-restraint) <i>people</i> whinging about how terrible they are because steam doesn't work for them, or how that Gabe Newell ate their dog or whatever.
Remember that the creation of Half-Life was not a bunch of random code cobbled together out of various “Teach yourself C++ in 4 seconds!!” books. They know how to make a good game. Trust them.
--Scythe--
My boss pays my wages, that doesn't make him any less of a ****.
People as a whole don't really need a reason to hate something.... if one bad thing happens to them, it will generally snowball from there.
And for the record they have made only one game to date. Half-life. They have rode the success of other mods and add-on packs from other development and gaming circles, of course you'll be doing patches if it means the next game you release will run perfectly so you can make money ;p
Then you have the whole Steam fiasco. The community has bitched, screamed, and thrashed about saying "We. Do. Not. WANT. Steam.", yet here we are. I'd also like to point out a that Valve stated "WON will be turned off when the CS players are happy", that was a month ago. WON will get turned off once Half-life 2 gets released. I guarantee it =)
The creation of Half-Life was like the building of a greenhouse. There's nothing wrong with reaping the tasty, tasty strawberries of reward resulting from your work. Especially since they require constant tending.
--Scythe--
As was said, somebody who acts like part of the community but rains s*** down upon their parade... well... they can go for a long walk off a short pier if you know what I mean <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Their WON system has worked for years without a problem, so I really don't need see the need for steam. If they really want to move the validation of cd keys onto their own servers and use SteamID's thats fine by me - but why don't they simply code up some proper auth servers like the WON ones? Making *everyone* download their software designed to sell us software and building the auth system into that piece of software is on the borderline of being illegal, there is absolutely no need for the steam software in order to make SteamID's work - I just hope some third parties start making software that can auth with steam without the need for steam.
Finally, HL2. I will only repeat here what has already been said on hundreds of gaming news sites all over the world: Valve were lying about the release date (Just as with HL1), they have done an amazingly small amount of work in the last 5 years and after being hacked they handled the situation very badly. Their last official press release states that "only 1/3 of the source was stolen" when in reality, all the source to hl2, the source to steam, ALL the models and textures for hl2, all the binaries, the experimental NVidia drivers, the steam server binaries and source code were all stolen. The hacker has such a complete source code that he has been releasing patches for his hl2 release!
I think valve need to stop hiding behind their lawyers and start telling the truth if they want any respect from the community.
I thought WON was owned by Sierra, who didn't want to keep it up any longer?
Sounds about right
1) WON is a seperate company to sierra
2) Valve pay WON, not sierra
3) Even if the WON headquarters blew up and they could no longer host WON auth servers, <b>there is absolutely no need for an application such as steam to do the authenticating</b>. Valve have purposefully built the authentication into steam because they will get millions of people being forced to use it, and they can then try to sell those people software/updates. Valve could just have easily coded the Steam server authentication into the half life shell (like the WON authentication currently is).
the DOD team agreed to it. thus the death is the dod teams fault not valves (same goes for cs)
While I still hate *nix based systems (I have to work on them every day) I am in love with the idea that I control what goes on and off my computer. While I do not argue that all software should be open sourced, Steam goes so far opposite from the open-sourced community that it turns my stomach. I am also they type of guy that likes to do my own car repairs. Go figure.
Oh and that whole HL2 thing...
Yea, Valve messed up.
I had to take several calming breaths upon reading your post so I didn't post a reply that would get deleted due to excessive profanity.
An amazingly small amount of work eh...
Have you seen the E3 movies...?
Do you have <b>any fscking idea</b> how difficult and time consuming it is to code an entirely new engine up from scratch?
How the hell would you know how much of the source was taken?
And for those of you that predict steam will turn into a compulsory pay-to-play system... just...
I'll end this post now because I enjoy my ability to post on these forums.
--Scythe--
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How the hell would you know how much of the source was taken?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EVERYTHING that was on the valve network was stolen, if the hacker doesnt have the full source then how is he compiling it and releasing playable versions & patches ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And for those of you that predict steam will turn into a compulsory pay-to-play system... just...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody thinks it is compulsary. I don't like it because we shouldnt have to download valves software designed to sell us games just so we can play their old game. They have purposefully put the auth into this program to gain a huge steam user base instantly. I say they should build the steam auth into the HL shell like WON and stop forcing us to download their awful steam software which I never intend to use to buy anything.
Not sure how complete your engine is but the guy doesn't turn around, there's no collisions between the enemy and the player and I can't find any buttons beyond moving and jumping.
The great thing with 2D is that you can do it without any majorly complex maths, but the minute you hit 3D and start trying to do stuff like a 3D camera without quarternians prepare for PAAAAIIIIIIN!!! (or 'gimble lock' as the techy term for it goes =3 )
Valve makes a game that raises the bar on FPS games, supports it for 5 years, gives the community the most popular online game in history, and then they get bitched at for it. It's like they give you so much and then when they are done your like "Wow that was great, now I want more faster, if you dont' give me everything right now I will hate you and steal your source code."
I don't get it, a company like Valve the produces solid gold and supports it's community gets hated on constantly. But EA that pumps out utter crap like an assembly line and couldn't give a crap about PC users is praised. You people are just like women, nice gaming companies finish last.
Geminosity,
1. It actually already has support for rendering 3D objects into the display, I just havent thought of a use for it yet.
2. I could convert the whole engine to 3D engine pretty easily, its maybe a days work? I've worked with 3D before and it is in no way more intricate than 2D - its just an extra dimension <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Perhaps some of the calculations are harder, but certainly not enough to slow development. Besides, the most complex code in hl2 is the collision detection/physics and thats all 3rd party code anyway!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not sure how complete your engine is but the guy doesn't turn around, there's no collisions between the enemy and the player and I can't find any buttons beyond moving and jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WASD moves, r reloads, you aim and shoot using the mouse (soldat style). 1-6 select weapons. I've recently coded a server and got some basic netcode working too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
dr.d:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They lied about the release date? Would you rather have them release unfinished pieces of crap like EA does? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, but why can't they make the game *and* not blatantly lie about the release date?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Valve makes a game that raises the bar on FPS games, supports it for 5 years, gives the community the most popular online game in history, and then they get bitched at for it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Valve make an extremely popular game that has been working fine for the last 5 years. They decide they want to make more money by selling games through a piece of software... now how can they make sure people will use this software? They exploit the community! They make a new patch which requires you to download their money making software in order to carry on playing
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And if more of you were actually supportive of Valve and refused to download leaked garbage they could probably have had this mess sorted by now and the release would come alot sooner.
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Valve tried to play off the hacking as the reason for the release date slide.. nice try valve, but the .nfo file from the latest release by the hacker informs us that there is nothing on valves network that he didnt grab - this is as far as valve have gotten with the game (and its very incomplete). I shan't post more for fear of bannage <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sure, they can do whatever they want with their own game. We just don't have to like, and we don't, and we're vocal about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They lied about the release date? Would you rather have them release unfinished pieces of crap like EA does?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm sure we would rather have them give a more acurate release date.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if more of you were actually supportive of Valve and refused to download leaked garbage they could probably have had this mess sorted by now and the release would come alot sooner.
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And DNF will be out by Christmas. You can believe it if you want, but its not true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Valve makes a game that raises the bar on FPS games, supports it for 5 years, gives the community the most popular online game in history, and then they get bitched at for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK, they didn't give us CS, that was a mod programmer. Truth is they've been living off the mod community all this time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's like they give you so much and then when they are done your like "Wow that was great, now I want more faster, if you dont' give me everything right now I will hate you and steal your source code."
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Hardly, they gave us HL, now their trying to make it slower, not work through a NAT, and eat more system resourses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't get it, a company like Valve the produces solid gold and supports it's community gets hated on constantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It supports the community because the mods sold games for them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But EA that pumps out utter crap like an assembly line and couldn't give a crap about PC users is praised.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who praised EA? ::looks around for the EA rep in the forum::
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You people are just like women, nice gaming companies finish last. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be true, but not in valve's case, because they really aren't that special of a game company. ID on the other hand...
In other words: Get off your "I am superior because I live and die by Gabe's word" high horse and realise that not everybody is pleased by the way valve is doing things, and they aren't going to stay quiet about it.
It comes from the phrase "Nice guys finish last", which arose due to the fact that women are fickle **** that actually prefer an abbusive guy to a nice one.
I have a funny feeling that as Mr. Newell was once an employee of Microsoft, his business practices (and that of his company) are by default, shoddy and highly questionable. So the HL2 release date slipped, no big deal; I don't see how this could cause so much outrage. Release dates slip all of the time, the only thing that could possibly make this one special is that it was preceeded by two rather large events. The anticlimatical release of Steam and the release of the 'leaked' HL2 source.
The aftermath of the release of Steam was the first indicator that HL2 wasn't going to be out by the 30th of September; the sun rose the day after the release of Steam with end-users jaded and Valve reeling. The simple fact was Valve had utterly underestimated the demand for Steam, and the strain this would put on their servers.
The second indicator that HL2 wasn't going to meet its release date, and this was a huge glaring one let me assure you; was the release of the 'leaked' beta. If we read back through this thread we can see accusations that what was in the beta was all Valve had made up to that point. A quick glance through the levels in the beta <i>(I personally do not have it and I would hope that only a minority of the readers of this forum do)</i> reveals a number of incomplete maps, with the maps shown at E3 numbering among these incomplete maps.
Back when the E3 movies were fiirst released, it was publicly announced that the videos had been made back in September 2002, roughly when the Source engine itself was declared feature complete). What I would like to know is how levels that were for all purposes complete a year over a year ago managed to become merely partially complete a year later...
Mouse