Do Animals Have Souls?
SkulkBait
Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13423Members
Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13423Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Christianity assumed</div> Do animals have souls? For this discussion we'll assume that Christianity is the one tru faith, and that the Bible is 100% accurate. I will probably stay out of the discussion completely, being not christian.
In case you can't be bothered to actually read the rest of the thread:
<b>THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b>
<b>THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b>
<b>THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b>
This is a discussion on whether <b>THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE</b> says that animals have a soul or not.
If you want to post your opinon, please create another thread.
In case you can't be bothered to actually read the rest of the thread:
<b>THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b>
<b>THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b>
<b>THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b>
This is a discussion on whether <b>THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE</b> says that animals have a soul or not.
If you want to post your opinon, please create another thread.
Comments
Why not just make it a matter of personal belief instead of a religious thread? That way you get Christians views without it being religious based discussion.
I, for one, do believe that animals have souls. They just bond too well with humans for their instinctual behavior to not have some way of including us. Even my cat's will come and lay down on my lap without anyone forcing them. They'll do it without even being petted, they'll just lay there and be all "purrrrrrrrr. purrrrrrrrrrrr. purrrrrrrrrrr." until the cows come home. And they'll do it even if I haven't put out their food in a long while.
They, like plants were formed from the earth, .
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
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man was created by God, in Gods own image, with a soul
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Animals bond well with humans because we feed and shelter them
(whichever religion you know best ;D)
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Because the point was to make it a religion based disscussion. That christianity says that animals don't have souls is something I've always just taken for granted, because it is said alot. But Marine01 indicated in annother thread that he doesn't think christianity says that. So in order to no take up any more fo that thread, I created this one. And who wouldn't pay to see the Marine01 vs Boggle discussion that will undoubtedly occur here?
- Animal activist 4 life.
- Animal activist 4 life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would ask all of you to please refrain from posting things like the above. I meant this to be a serious discussion of biblical interpritation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He even goes so far as to bless both of them. The only real difference sems to lie in the phrase "God created man in his own image". You believe that this means God gave man a soul, but it could probably be interpreted differently. Is there any other evidence for the idea that animals do not have souls?
- Animal activist 4 life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would ask all of you to please refrain from posting things like the above. I meant this to be a serious discussion of biblical interpritation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Any deity that wouldn't give my doggie a soul can kiss my arse. He rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For christ's sake people, can you keep from posting your opinion here? <b>THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b> This is a discussion on whether THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE says that animals have a soul or not. So please, if you want to post your opinion, start another thread.
I'm not sure where that comes from in the bible (because I don't remember it), but I may not have the right bible interpretation to have that particular line in Genesis.
Depends on how we define soul in this debate. I'd define soul myself as being self aware (aware of God for this discussion) in which case only Humans are capable of identifying God. Therefore only Humans would have a soul.
Thats the evolution friendly version I learned.
oh wait... i think i interpreted this wrong.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, if you can't be bothered to read the introductory post....
Aegeri, since when were insects not classified as animals? Also, Lions eat zebra and antelope. does that mean they are doing something wrong? Don't those animals have souls too?
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, if you can't be bothered to read the introductory post.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it is. Noobling.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER OR NOT ANIMALS HAVE A SOUL!</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, if you can't be bothered to read the introductory post.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it is. Noobling. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, its not. I should know, I started the damned thing. That is why I explicitly state that this thread assumes christianity is correct, therefore one must have biblical evidence to back up his/her claims.
90% of the people have posted something not relevant to your question, but how can you discuss such a straight question (you could've PM'ed or read the damn thing yourself) If not it was a matter of your interprention (opinion) of the bible.
To my knowledge, only Boggle has offered any biblical support for his opinion and interpretation. Everyone else just threw their opinion into the mix without any support whatsoever. I would certainly welcome anyone who could support their "animals have souls" claim, or even just a "the bible doesn't say whether or not they have a soul" claim, but it just hasn't happened yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's your interprention of the bible. Nowhere does it say "animals have soul" as far as I can remember.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Boggle has posted evidence to the contrary, and argued to support his interpretation of the "God made man in his own image" line, if you would liek to argue differently then do so instead of posting one line responses.
<a href='http://www.school-for-champions.com/religion/animalsoul.htm' target='_blank'>Does an Animal Have a Soul?</a> This site claims that the Christian bible does not explicitly state that animals do not have souls. By inference, I'm guessing the bible doesn't directly say they <b>do</b> have souls.
Numerous articles claim that the Pope said that animals have souls. <i>"In 1990 Pope John Paul II declared in a public audience 'Also the animals possess a soul, and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren.'"</i> <a href='http://www.science-spirit.org/articles/seeking_01.html' target='_blank'>Seeking the Animal Soul</a>
A lof of these sites I'm finding are from animal rights activists. Here's one from a Christian site that tries to reconcile the confusion: <a href='http://www.all-creatures.org/ca/ark-186soul.html' target='_blank'>Do Animals Have Souls?</a> <i>"What is definitive in Christian understanding of animals in the order of salvation, is that, with the incarnation of Christ, with God taking flesh, there is a new connection between all that shares the matter of flesh, of bodies: as the Holy Father said, a 'solidarity' between us and our brothers and sisters, the other 'living souls', the animals."</i>
Here's another quoting scripture: <a href='http://www.christadelphia.org/man.htm' target='_blank'>Response to Mainstream Christianity: The Nature of Man</a> <i>"Ecclesiastes 3:19 - For the fate of the sons of men and fate of beast is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts..."</i>
Just reading these few articles, it seems that there is no definitive stance from Christianity on the matter. It's not spoken of directly in the bible as "animals have souls," but animals having souls can be inferred through other verses. Whether you believe that or not depends on whether you accept the inference or whether you think it implies something else. Like animals having "second class" souls or some such.
[edit]
I found another site that pointed out the Latin origin of the word animal... it's <i>anima</i>, which by definition means <i>soul</i>.
<a href='http://www.school-for-champions.com/religion/animalsoul.htm' target='_blank'>Does an Animal Have a Soul?</a> This site claims that the Christian bible does not explicitly state that animals do not have souls. By inference, I'm guessing the bible doesn't directly say they <b>do</b> have souls. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. The bible does not say whether animals have souls or not. There is pretty stong evidence from the bible that they do not however. Firstly, there are never any animals (as we know them) mentioned in John's revelations of heaven. there are talks of thousands of millions of poeple, but no animals
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Numerous articles claim that the Pope said that animals have souls. <i>"In 1990 Pope John Paul II declared in a public audience 'Also the animals possess a soul, and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren.'"</i> <a href='http://www.science-spirit.org/articles/seeking_01.html' target='_blank'>Seeking the Animal Soul</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the Pope did say animals have souls, but he isnt the bible is he?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A lof of these sites I'm finding are from animal rights activists.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so they will be naturally biased (but it is impossible to find an unbiased view, so i will let it slip)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's one from a Christian site that tries to reconcile the confusion: <a href='http://www.all-creatures.org/ca/ark-186soul.html' target='_blank'>Do Animals Have Souls?</a> <i>"What is definitive in Christian understanding of animals in the order of salvation, is that, with the incarnation of Christ, with God taking flesh, there is a new connection between all that shares the matter of flesh, of bodies: as the Holy Father said, a 'solidarity' between us and our brothers and sisters, the other 'living souls', the animals."</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NB: The Holy Father in that quote is the Pope, not God, and i have addresed that point above
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's another quoting scripture: <a href='http://www.christadelphia.org/man.htm' target='_blank'>Response to Mainstream Christianity: The Nature of Man</a> <i>"Ecclesiastes 3:19 - For the fate of the sons of men and fate of beast is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts..."</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that what it is talking about there is that man is equal to the beast in the fact that they both live, they both breathe, they both die. The lack of advanbtage is the fact that both man and beast are going to die, what happens after death is a different matter.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just reading these few articles, it seems that there is no definitive stance from Christianity on the matter. It's not spoken of directly in the bible as "animals have souls," but animals having souls can be inferred through other verses. Whether you believe that or not depends on whether you accept the inference or whether you think it implies something else. Like animals having "second class" souls or some such.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here we go.
Man has been given dominion over all the animals and plants to use them as food and clothing. We are like caretakers looking after the earth until God 'comes back' God never said "thou shalt not kill an animal" but he did say "thou shalt not murder" [another human], implying that we are better in some way. Because Ecclesiastes 3:19 says that we are equal in the way that we live and die, the difference must come after death, ie, a soul.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[edit]
I found another site that pointed out the Latin origin of the word animal... it's <i>anima</i>, which by definition means <i>soul</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bible was not written in latin. It is highly likely that the ancient religions viewed animals as having a soul, maybe even exalting them to be worshipped. When the people who spoke latin were looking for a good name for these beasts, they called them after what they viewed them as being: souls
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but he did say "thou shalt not murder" [another human], <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last I checked, it was "Thou shalt not kill." You changed kill to murder and added [another human] to your interpretation. Not sure how you're able to do that.
And just to clarify, my <i>opinion</i> is that no creature has a soul... not humans nor apes nor fruit flies nor amoeba. Taking soul at the classical definition as that which lives beyond the physical death of a creature. Just wanted to offer some additional information to those who may want look further.
It's kinda like ammending the constitution, btw this only in Catholic beliefs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So if the Pope says animals have souls and makes it doctrine doesn't it become true by God also<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont see how God would change his mind just because an old bloke in a hat says so. It just doesnt make sense.
I think in order for that statement to be true you'd actually have to know what God's opinion actually is. I don't think that's possible, even for the Pope or whomever else claims to be the voice of God. Leaving the discussion purely to what's written in the bible, there is no clear-cut answer one way or the other. Considering the bible was written by man, I'm sure there's a little egotistical human nature going on there. Humans consider themselves superior to all others, so it's natural to make this inference about the Christian scripture. Whether that's truly what God had in mind... well, now we get into opinion. I don't think the topic author wanted to go that route.