Clans Dying

HAMBoneHAMBone Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited October 2003 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">another thought</div> I feel like part of the reason that many of the top clans have stopped playing recently (and why we will probably stop playing soon) is the sharp downturn of moral values in the competitive community. Don't get me wrong, NS is one of the most brilliant games I've ever played, but it seems to me like almost every clan has given up on the morals and values we once had.

Six months ago, there was only one clan who used bunnyhopping scripts and messed with their configs, and just about everyone hated them. Look around today, and it seems like every team is using bunnyhop scripts, messing with their gamma, there's even one team who I really had nothing but respect for that is now abusing cl_rate, even seemingly bragging about it on public forums(probably the worst config hack there is right now in competitive play, to others you seem to be jerking around as if you were lagging, but to you everything is perfectly smooth with no lag). At what point did all this stuff go from being terrible to being acceptable? We used to have such a clean, fun community. If drawviewmodel 0 was still allowed today then almost everyone would use it. Isnt that sad?

Its sucks that we decided it was ok to replace skill with lines in a config file. It could take a person months to become a good bunnyhopper, and even then they would NEVER be nearly as good as they could be with a script. I honestly believe that the vast majority of people in the community think like me and hate this config stuff, but clan A will use scripts against clan B and win, and then clan B will feel like they have to do it to compete, and since its legal in CAL, why not? And within a few months we will have degenerated to the point where we're like the competitive quake community, where every single player uses every single possible config hack that will in any small way benefit them, and its completely acceptable. Is it too late to bring the values and sportsmanship back to NS? CAL really cant enforce stuff like bunnyhop scripts, but do you think that people would stop if they made a rule against it anyways?

I think that something has to be done about this now before it gets out of hand, cal needs to put rules in place and enforce them, we need wwcl and cheating-death to be mandatory on match servers. I will be putting both wwcl and cheating death on our match server tonight.
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Comments

  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    This is very insightful, I can assure you, just about everyone I play with does not appreciate that crap or use it either.
  • CorradoCorrado Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11423Members
    Agreed Hambone.

    NS is a great game to play, but the clan scene is extremely hostile. I remember a short while ago, fwd were abused for bunnyhopping/dvm 0 etc...nowadays, the vast majority of it and its taken as "normal" in the game. Going to a lan a while back was quite shocking...a lot of players were using programs such as powerstrip to remove shadows from the game...quite surprised me... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • kavasakavasa Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11889Members, Constellation
    edited October 2003
    Well, enh.
    I dunno - I've never tracked these things either way really. As in I have no idea what clans you're even talking about, even with the "and everyone hated them" bit. Is HAM seriously considering disbanding because they feel there're more people using leet gammahax etc? If that's the case, I think you guys should stick it out to the end of the current CAL season at least. Or perhaps to phrase that a bit better: I hope you do.

    p.s.: banned for teamstacking :o
  • PredmidPredmid Join Date: 2003-03-28 Member: 14997Members
    wow, programs that remove shadows? thats quite lame...how on earth is that leagal??? i mean, you could adjust your brightness, but whats the point?

    i never really thought of these people being the downfall of the cal community, but yes, i agree with you whole heartedly. I get fed up with people pushing the rules to the limit and little to no standards enforced by cal. kudos for pointing this out.
  • HAMBoneHAMBone Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    HAM will never disband, the worst thing that can happen is we will move on to another game. And yes, when i'm to the point where I feel like I have to compromise my integrity to stay competitive, I'd rather not be competitive at all.
  • TheWizardTheWizard Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10553Members, Constellation
    edited October 2003
    Powerstrip is a program that is rampantly abused in NS.

    I won't deny that I use it. However I have to because my video drivers reset my gamma and brightness to zero every time I start a game. I make sure that when I adjust my gamma that the shadows are still visible.

    With regards to abusing scripts in competitive play, I cannot say that I am angered. It is a competition and you are in it to win. If it does not violate the rules of the match then there is little ground for you to stand on.

    However I do feel that the rules should be tightened. Cyber-Athelete is no such thing until every competitor is on equal footing.
  • JojoshuaJojoshua NS Guide Professor Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5233Members
    Yea dude, I know how you feel. I remember a time when we didnt have to worry about any kind of crap like that. Now that its more common, you cant help but question sometimes. I'll support your claims and maybe we can get some new rules.
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    Basically, you feel that one of the reasons why the clan scene is dying is because the CAL rules are not strict enough?
  • HAMBoneHAMBone Probably the best Commander Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    And I want to make one thing abundantly clear here. I am NOT angry at anyone or blaming anyone for this. There are a few people in particular who I am dissapointed with, but I will not say their names, and I will not judge them. He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone. The NS community is one very close to my heart, and I will never forget it. I have made quite a few friends in this community, and many of them are among the offenders described in my previous post. We all know how this works. It could start with one clan of troublemakers. They may not be the best but they are good enough to win, and they decide they need an edge and they start to use a script. Next thing you know, they're beating clans they never could. And those clans know what happened, and think it sucks, but then they find out that its actually legal in cal. So they try it out, and now they're playing better and winning more often. And before you know it, people are practically forced into compromising their values so as not to fall behind. This is what I believe has happened here and I believe that we can stop it before it gets out of hand.

    So, just to clarify, this is not me lashing out at the community. This is me saying, lets take a good look at ourselves and the people around us, lets acknowledge whats going on, and lets try to put a stop to it before its too late. If I'm in the minority on this issue then I will give it up and fade away, but I do not think I am the minority, I think there are alot of people out there using bunnyhop scripts and other config hacks right now that feel dirty about it and wish they could stop, but as long as they think that everyone else around them is doing the same thing, they cant.
  • stick100stick100 Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9050Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Umbraed Monkey+Oct 27 2003, 08:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 27 2003, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> because the CAL rules are not strict enough? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't think the cal rules can do this.

    I think we would need programs like punkbuster that would detect this stuff.

    But more importantly I think Hambone is saying "why is it ok to do this stuff".

    I think hes saying we should make it not ok to take every little advantage, it needs to stop.

    It should not be acceptable if your clanmate says he has replaced his skulk model with the onos model so that skulks can't ever sneak up on him.
  • PredmidPredmid Join Date: 2003-03-28 Member: 14997Members
    yes, to a degree. certain types of scripting alow players to get a major competative advantage with some fancy button mashing, instead of the skill and finnese it takes to do b'hopping properly.

    Think like tony hawk's pro skater or something like that. One guy is using max'ed out skill stats and his uber mega board so that he can do all these massive tricks with little skill while another guy goes and uses the min stats and just all around less than player a. Both are capeable of doing very well, but the guy with maxed out stats will be able to do so with a hell of a lot less effort.
  • Brad_RBrad_R pandas | brad Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8273Members, Constellation
    With the NS Community being smaller than say, CAL-CS, we had always hoped that this community could hold itself to a certain level of standards, and never saw a need for something such as WWCL. As HAMBONE stated there have been clans notorious for certain actions, and doing that was putting your team in a less than desirable position amongst your peers. Lately I have heard that the tides are changing, and we will reassess the current situation to see what can be done that is within our power.

    HAMBONE made some suggestion, but what does anyone else within the clan community feel should be done exactly? Our logic has always been there was never an "epidemic" that required attention. Things like OGC and such just haven't hit the NS community as hard as other games. Getting 12 guys together, on one server, at the right time - is hard enough. When you start throwing client side programs that can mess up, and server side processes that control who connects...you just make the whole ordeal even harder. We wanted to keep it simple, and if a few people changed a few variables around to make their screen brighter or something, so be it. But if it is getting out of hand then something should be done...suggestions?
  • JojoshuaJojoshua NS Guide Professor Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5233Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--mcclane+Oct 28 2003, 01:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mcclane @ Oct 28 2003, 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> With the NS Community being smaller than say, CAL-CS, we had always hoped that this community could hold itself to a certain level of standards, and never saw a need for something such as WWCL. As HAMBONE stated there have been clans notorious for certain actions, and doing that was putting your team in a less than desirable position amongst your peers. Lately I have heard that the tides are changing, and we will reassess the current situation to see what can be done that is within our power.

    HAMBONE made some suggestion, but what does anyone else within the clan community feel should be done exactly? Our logic has always been there was never an "epidemic" that required attention. Things like OGC and such just haven't hit the NS community as hard as other games. Getting 12 guys together, on one server, at the right time - is hard enough. When you start throwing client side programs that can mess up, and server side processes that control who connects...you just make the whole ordeal even harder. We wanted to keep it simple, and if a few people changed a few variables around to make their screen brighter or something, so be it. But if it is getting out of hand then something should be done...suggestions? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I dont think it would hurt anything to make rules super tight. It would probably be a comfort to new clans thinking about getting competitive.
  • Brad_RBrad_R pandas | brad Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8273Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Jojoshua+Oct 27 2003, 08:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jojoshua @ Oct 27 2003, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--mcclane+Oct 28 2003, 01:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mcclane @ Oct 28 2003, 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> With the NS Community being smaller than say, CAL-CS, we had always hoped that this community could hold itself to a certain level of standards, and never saw a need for something such as WWCL. As HAMBONE stated there have been clans notorious for certain actions, and doing that was putting your team in a less than desirable position amongst your peers. Lately I have heard that the tides are changing, and we will reassess the current situation to see what can be done that is within our power.

    HAMBONE made some suggestion, but what does anyone else within the clan community feel should be done exactly? Our logic has always been there was never an "epidemic" that required attention. Things like OGC and such just haven't hit the NS community as hard as other games. Getting 12 guys together, on one server, at the right time - is hard enough. When you start throwing client side programs that can mess up, and server side processes that control who connects...you just make the whole ordeal even harder. We wanted to keep it simple, and if a few people changed a few variables around to make their screen brighter or something, so be it. But if it is getting out of hand then something should be done...suggestions? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I dont think it would hurt anything to make rules super tight. It would probably be a comfort to new clans thinking about getting competitive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The problem with that is, we can't imagine every thing someone is gonna do. Recently we had someone trying to play for 3 seperate clans at one time. I mean, come on...do I even have to explain the wrong in that?

    So should we add a rule for every variable that can be exploited? No...that is silly.
  • PredmidPredmid Join Date: 2003-03-28 Member: 14997Members
    edited October 2003
    I feel that some sort of client side program* would do nicely. CD or punkbuster seem to do very well; and i have had no problems with them. The only people who really complain about them seem to be the ones relying on the scripts anyway...

    nvm, didnt know they didnt help against that...so just scratch this idea from the record.
  • snozzlesnozzle Join Date: 2003-04-23 Member: 15788Members
    it doesnt have to be cfg h4x either...

    just look what exoity did to cri <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> ( no offense exo)
  • SiliconSilicon Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13683Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Predmid+Oct 27 2003, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Predmid @ Oct 27 2003, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I feel that some sort of client side program* would do nicely. CD or punkbuster seem to do very well; and i have had no problems with them. The only people who really complain about them seem to be the ones relying on the scripts anyway... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    CD nor punkbuster protect from 'scripting' events in your config files. but I don't think it's possible to prevent scripting with the engine we are using, even though there have been attempts to prevent it.
  • AlbinoAlbino Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19841Members, NS1 Playtester
    Thanks for bringing this up HAMBONE. I'm from a clan that is just getting into competitive play. We're going to start off in OGL (we know it's nubby) just because we don't want to be in a really hardcore league like CAL. We're not the type of people to mess with our config or use hacks. If CAL steps up and does something about cheating and scripting I think our clan and other clans that are new or just starting in competitive play would be more comfortable starting out in CAL. Seeing as how so many clans have dropped out of CAL I would expect they'd do anything to get more to join. And really how hard is it to run CD, I just keep the CD icon next to my NS icon. It's one extra double click I think anyone could handle. There shouldn't be any excuses.
  • SoberanaSoberana Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17695Members
    People in NS competitive scene using config options to their advantage?<b>NO WAY</b> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    edited October 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So should we add a rule for every variable that can be exploited? No...that is silly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't think there's any harm in modifying the rules to suit the situation. As exploitable commands gain prevelance you should feel free to ban it from competitive play. The people that are using these things aren't ignorant; they know that what they're doing is at the least very shady. As long as a majority can agree that something is harmful to competetive play lets get it out and spell it out in the rules clearly what's wrong. "<a href='http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/foolishconsi.html' target='_blank'>Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds</a>," etc etc.
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--stick100+Oct 27 2003, 08:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (stick100 @ Oct 27 2003, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Umbraed Monkey+Oct 27 2003, 08:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 27 2003, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> because the CAL rules are not strict enough? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't think the cal rules can do this.

    I think we would need programs like punkbuster that would detect this stuff.

    But more importantly I think Hambone is saying "why is it ok to do this stuff".

    I think hes saying we should make it not ok to take every little advantage, it needs to stop.

    It should not be acceptable if your clanmate says he has replaced his skulk model with the onos model so that skulks can't ever sneak up on him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    But you see, HAMBROWN said that other clans were following suit BECAUSE it is perfectly legal in CAL rules.

    And its human nature to take every advantage. I do not need to tell you that there are people who play with only winning in mind, being fair and following rules is only to make sure the win stays a win. That is why stricter rules is the only economical solution to this. If the said clans are outright cheating...well, I guess it cannot be helped..
  • NerdyNerdy Join Date: 2003-10-25 Member: 21954Members, Constellation
    edited October 2003
    The #1 problem in my opinion is a REAL consistency check with ns. Consistency as of now only checks that the file is there and named exactly the same. I know exactly how this can be gotten around with sounds, models, textures, and everything and it is SO easy to do. I originally posted it here to show how much of a problem it is but then quickly editted it out after realizing how many lamers would read and do it. When flayra or someone is in #nspt ill tell u exactly how the exploiting of consistency is done. I know of some games that run consistency systems where for example, lets say you had a model named player.mdl that was 350kb. 350kb would directly transfer to a long **** code like LADSAD223LL that would mean 350kb in whichever system you come up with for transferring the file size to code. Then, server consistencty would check that the code for the servers player.mdl lined up directly with the code of the clients player.mdl. This would severely cut down on editting because the file sizes would have to end up being exactly the same.
  • Malibu_StaceyMalibu_Stacey Join Date: 2003-04-06 Member: 15243Members
    TBH I would say leagues in general can't be totally innocent in this area.

    Server commands such as sv_minrate & sv_minupdaterate exist for this reason & should be used to "level the playing field". Also server side metamod plugins can be used to check & enforce client side variables (even though I detest it with a passion, WWCL has been used to achieve this in the CS community but I wouldn't recommend it for NS, using AMX or C-D to implement it would be much more efficient or elegant or even adding more server commands to NS).

    However I agree with HAMBONE. Finding a solution to this 'problem' should not be needed but it has reared it head now & I doubt it will go away. r_drawviewmodel 0 was very controversial & offered the user a huge advantage so it was removed from the game. Surely there should be efforts to do the same in this case?
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Nerdy+Oct 27 2003, 06:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nerdy @ Oct 27 2003, 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> editting i told too many people hwo to edit <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    md5 would be even more secure although I don't know how feasable that would be.
  • DracussDracuss Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13259Members
    First let me say that I never bothered to change my account name since I rarely post on here. Secondly I would like to say that in the past me and Hambone have disagreed on things, but on this subject I couldn't agree with him more. My views have already been expressed by him but let me add something more to it. Part of the reason I left NS and part of the reason I have been uncertain about rejoining the clan scene has been this issue. I have a large group of real life friends that all play computer games and I often have them over to my house. On one occasion I was throwing a LAN party and DG had a CAL match and over half my clan was there because we all knew each other in real life. Part of the reason that people are begging to feel that cheating is ok is because we don't play face to face, or even in the same city. We can't be sure that the other person isn't cheating so when you lose and you think the other team was questionable it leaves a sickening feeling in your stomach. So you're left with two choices, cheat to stay competitive, or leave. I left. And I hated it because I love this game so much, so now I've returned but this problem has only gotten worse. The Cl_rate/choke exploit is rampant on pubs.

    People that only care about winning and nothing else will try and cheat to help further that goal. And they will spend long hours to try and get around any wwcl or cheating death protection. But as long as steps are taken to make cheating and exploiting very difficult, and easier to catch, the vast majority of people will take comfort in knowing that in all likelihood the game is fair, that they don't have to cheat to be competitive, and we can get back to the important stuff, playing competitively.
  • hybhighhybhigh Join Date: 2003-06-11 Member: 17213Members
    I am not having a go at anybody here, but I never have, nor ever will attempt to bunnyhop. I see it as a HL bug that should have been removed a long time ago (they probably can't but aw well). I have never used any sort of script (not even a buy script in CS). I have friends that use scripts for varying things (one uses a buy script, another a low graphics script, as he has a very old card).

    I just hate how so many ppl go "oh nice bunny hop u have there" or "u should bunny hop, you will get more kills". I find that my conscience is clear when I know I have killed somebody using my raw skill, and not by using some exploit. Now I know everybody is going to go waaaah waaaah bhop is okay because they left it in, but they only left it in for aliens at it slowed them down too much ingame.

    Just remember that not all scripts are bad, I know a few ppl who are disabled and rely on scripts so they can enjoy the game a little better also.
  • kavasakavasa Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11889Members, Constellation
    Or even just... make a rule about specific things. "exploiting cl_rate to make yourself harder to hit is forbidden". I guess it's not really an enforceable rule, but I think that as long as it's actually against the rules, alot of people might give it up.
  • Brad_RBrad_R pandas | brad Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8273Members, Constellation
    bhoping originated in quake, not HL...its not a bug <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • GrahamGraham Join Date: 2003-09-20 Member: 21034Members
    edited October 2003
    Couldn't agree more with HAMBONE on this one.

    I've seen all sorts of scripts and even recently a member of a very good european clan get caught cheating.

    This was unheard of back in 1.04.

    Bunnyhopping scripts are the newest fad, and it's so obvious to spot someone doing it. After getting involved with the new UKNSL thats gonna start I appealed to adminmod script writers to see if we could get together a program that would scan+upload .cfg files from a clients computer so we could find out who had scripts and who didn't. Apparently it's not easy to do at all.

    As for configging, well if you know your stuff you'll know that bar the cl_rate abuse, there are no other commands that give u any noticable advantage than ex_interp. But this isn't generally a problem, since WWCL does a nice job of keeping cvars in check, although you can even get round that. <a href='http://www.unitedadmins.com/cdeath-dl.php' target='_blank'>Cheating-Death</a> does a great job on stopping 'proper' cheats and it also limits a few cvars like interp.

    One thing I have noticed is how hardly any servers in the USA have C-D, often when we come to play your clans they dont have it[not suggesting you cheat btw <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->]. Whereas in Europe C-D is on a huge amount of servers, perhaps you guys are more trusting?<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    To stop the scripts is a big task, however in the mean time, servers should start installing WWCL and Cheating-Death if you haven't already.

    edit: forgot to add, torment shall be adding wwcl to all of our servers to work with the already-installed cheating death, hope you server owners follow
  • criogenicscriogenics Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12248Members, Constellation
    My clan #cri. tries to scrim on our C-D server but most American clans refuse, saying how it doesn't work for some of their members. I personally think that it's utter bull****, but we've given up trying to enforce C-D after getting turned down for scrims. I bet if CAL makes C-D required then C-D would magically work for everyone.
This discussion has been closed.