Marine Loadout Seems Rather... Anachronistic.
Lord_Fanny-MacH
Join Date: 2003-10-28 Member: 22072Members
Join Date: 2003-10-28 Member: 22072Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Just some thoughts.</div> I discussed this with my friend before and I wondered if other people had the same question.. that being why are marine weapons loadouts not specialized enough?
That is, there are no real ROLES in NS. I don't mean classes, of course, but when you have a squad of marines, you shouldn't always expect to deck every single one of them out with HMG and HAs/JPs... it's simply not cost effective, as reflected in gameplay and in--dare I say it--the real world. This excepts the GL which is the only speciality weapon the marines have. HMGs, as it stands now, are a highpowered replacement for the LMG, as are shotguns due to the generally close fighting that occurs. There doesn't seem to be any use for the LMG in the later parts of the game; if you can afford other guns, you'll toss out shotguns or HMGs. If you can't, most likely you're in dire straits anyway and aren't able to afford better guns anyway.
Granted, there are number of other reasons why HMGs-as-replacement-guns would make sense, the biggest of which is that people really don't enjoy seeing the same gun for the length of a game... I mean, you gotta have new toys at some point, right? Perhaps new models with each weapon upgrade would alleviate this (technically impossible, from what I can tell but, as I said, this is just a bunch of crap I'm spinning). But the purchaseable weapons are devalued as a result. Or maybe this all just fits in with the spirit of the science fiction theme. After all, the "weapons for all" is quite socialist, don't you think? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Let me get to the point... I'm wondering why HMGs aren't a kind of weapon that you would give to a one or two marines in a squad. A support weapon, if you will. Something heavier that makes more sense to fire while stationary instead of running. Maybe deployable? A defensive weapon. If the HMG were used more like this, than it would be relegated to an anti-personnel role instead of an assault weapon. GL's could be made into more effective building killing weapons. A few shotguns would be given out for close combat support and protection. And the LMGs would be the jack-of-all-trades, as well as it should be... taking out enemies and buildings at a distance.
Hey, this is just bunch of **** I'm tossing around out of boredom between classes, but it's discussion nonetheless (although this is about as incoherent of a post as I can get). Thoughts?
That is, there are no real ROLES in NS. I don't mean classes, of course, but when you have a squad of marines, you shouldn't always expect to deck every single one of them out with HMG and HAs/JPs... it's simply not cost effective, as reflected in gameplay and in--dare I say it--the real world. This excepts the GL which is the only speciality weapon the marines have. HMGs, as it stands now, are a highpowered replacement for the LMG, as are shotguns due to the generally close fighting that occurs. There doesn't seem to be any use for the LMG in the later parts of the game; if you can afford other guns, you'll toss out shotguns or HMGs. If you can't, most likely you're in dire straits anyway and aren't able to afford better guns anyway.
Granted, there are number of other reasons why HMGs-as-replacement-guns would make sense, the biggest of which is that people really don't enjoy seeing the same gun for the length of a game... I mean, you gotta have new toys at some point, right? Perhaps new models with each weapon upgrade would alleviate this (technically impossible, from what I can tell but, as I said, this is just a bunch of crap I'm spinning). But the purchaseable weapons are devalued as a result. Or maybe this all just fits in with the spirit of the science fiction theme. After all, the "weapons for all" is quite socialist, don't you think? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Let me get to the point... I'm wondering why HMGs aren't a kind of weapon that you would give to a one or two marines in a squad. A support weapon, if you will. Something heavier that makes more sense to fire while stationary instead of running. Maybe deployable? A defensive weapon. If the HMG were used more like this, than it would be relegated to an anti-personnel role instead of an assault weapon. GL's could be made into more effective building killing weapons. A few shotguns would be given out for close combat support and protection. And the LMGs would be the jack-of-all-trades, as well as it should be... taking out enemies and buildings at a distance.
Hey, this is just bunch of **** I'm tossing around out of boredom between classes, but it's discussion nonetheless (although this is about as incoherent of a post as I can get). Thoughts?
Comments
And the answer-every-problem-with-TSA-tactics phrase is: "The TSA is poor so it is unable to produce so much. That's why it gets its res on site and not pre-equip them with full equip"
edit: and the in-game reason is, not a weapon mod. You have enough weapons as is and NS is already touching the weapon limit of the engine. There's nothing you can't do with the weapons already there. Weld, slice, set traps, shoot aliens, shoot structures and shoot from cover with area blast. What more do you REALLY need?
er, as comm I hand out shotguns as well, to hit their buildings. While HMGs can destroy buildings, I prefer having shotties to do it whenever possible.
And the answer-every-problem-with-TSA-tactics phrase is: "The TSA is poor so it is unable to produce so much. That's why it gets its res on site and not pre-equip them with full equip"
edit: and the in-game reason is, not a weapon mod. You have enough weapons as is and NS is already touching the weapon limit of the engine. There's nothing you can't do with the weapons already there. Weld, slice, set traps, shoot aliens, shoot structures and shoot from cover with area blast. What more do you REALLY need?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yeah, even a single shotgun is already excellent skulk and fade protection... need to protect the HMG brethren, who have a rougher time against skulks.
You know what? That's a great explanation. The TSA only gets a little more than 100 res to start off with, and everything else is. That's pretty harsh. But like I said, I'm not talking about CLASSES, I'm talking about a specialization of weaponry... Because of this "TSA is poor and unable to produce much" concept, wouldn't it make more sense to drop a one or two heavy or special weapons for a 5 man squad of marines, like a single shotgun and a single HMG? No, of course a big no to preequipment, but I think I didn't explain myself clearly at first.
And, no, I wasn't talking about making additional weapons... The variety is more than fine with me. What I mean is to take the HMG and make it a far more specialized gun, setting it further apart from the LMG in terms of the tasks it's made for. I don't believe the usage of the HMG is very different than the LMG. Maybe if you do something wacky with it like make it a far more defensive weapon, like, say, increase the cost, up the damage slightly, double the ammo capacity, maintain the bullet spread, and make it stationary firing. It's a stretch, but hey, I'm just thinking on my feet here.
Again, I'd like to stress that I'm talking about specialization and tactical use for the HMG.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I view the HMG as a support weapon. I can't use it to the same effect as an LMG, because of the long reload, and few clips. I spam ammo out there with machine guns, and the HMG isn't made for that, it's made for crowd suppression with a vengeance. LMG is single-enemy attack. They AREN'T the same. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I agree, LMGs and HMGs aren't used in the exact same role. But when you have 5 or 6 marines all with HMGs, there isn't a heck of alot of difference in how they're going to be using their guns. If a single skulk swings into view, everyone will still open up regardless.... really no different than if they were all using LMGs anyway.
Now NS:
1) Shotguns kill structures faster then the grenade launcher. At level 3, it takes only 3 shots to waste an offense chamber. Not even a level 3 grenade launcher can do that. Furthermore, the grenade launcher has such an atrociously long reload time, and low ammo capacity (While the shotgun has the fastest reload time of any weapon), the shotgun definately excells. <b>Solution: Shotgun should do PIERCING damage (50% damage to structures)</b>
2) The shotgun is viable at every stage in the game. Think about what would happen if gorge spit did 100 damage and was hitscan. Marines would die everywhere. Just like aliens die everywhere when a handful of skilled marines that know how to aim, and a commander who knows how to drop medpacks will make aliens, and the hive, die everywhere. Furthermore, one good shot against a fade will send him running for his life. Two against an onos and he'll be hurtin' as well. While the HMG can do overall more damage then the shotgun, frankly, the shotgun again, reloads about 30x faster then the HMG. Also, the HMG weighs more. And frankly, I don't find it very fair that the marines get a boomstick that's only useful at SHORT RANGE... wait... short range? Is that supposed to be BALANCE? Sorry, but almost all aliens rely on MELEE to kill. So a shotgun marine is <i>theoretically</i> invincible against anything short of a stomping onos or a silenced fade. <b>Solution: Shotgun does LIGHT damage (50% damage to onos, maybe even fade), and HMG slows your turning speed (Cap turning speed, like in Planetside)</b> This makes shotgun = light critter defense, and HMG = big heavy critter defense.
3) The grenade launcher makes perfect base defense. The fact it does NO damage to friendlies and NO damage to structures means that: Skulks rush base. Skulks eat base. Marine fires grenades all over base, kills all skulks. The end. No. No no no. Grenade launcher needs to be for causing lots of pain to an onos, supressing the enemy, and assaulting structures. It should do 50-75% damage to friendly marines and structures. Abusable? Yes. But there's 10,000 other ways to loose the game for your team. Balanced? Very.
More to come later <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And what other roles do you think the Marines need? They can already load out pretty well for fast hit-and-run, heavy tanking, and anti-structure/area-suppression. I'm not sure that I see many other viable tactics in a game as fast as NS, without delving into a fully class-based system, with medics and field commanders and whatnot. And I believe the NS team has no interest in going in that direction, thankfully.
As for the weapon suggestions, I think that GL friendly fire is a poor idea. The shells are pretty nasty to aim and can bounce around a little oddly. If someone shot out 4 shells and took out the entire Marine base, well, no one would be having much fun then. And GL vs. skulks is pretty fair, since skulks are free and can still potentially xeno the crap out of the guy with the GL.
In homeworld 2, the flak frigate is good for absoutely chewing up pesky little fighters (Skulks). However, send that thing against anything larger then a corvette and it'll get chewed up something terrible.
Now in NS, the flak frigate is also an anti-capital-ship weapon. However, that's for the marines. The aliens, however, get pesky little fighters (Skulks), but they don't have bombers, meaning their pesky little fighters absoutely suck against anything larger then a corvette.
See what I mean? The shotgun is viable the whole game. Skulks can't do much against HA: Leap is only useful for moving around a bit quicker, hardly useful for countering level 1/2 marines. Xenocide... c'mon, 2 xenos to kill a LA level 3 marine? How stupid is THAT?
In homeworld 2, the flak frigate is good for absoutely chewing up pesky little fighters (Skulks). However, send that thing against anything larger then a corvette and it'll get chewed up something terrible.
Now in NS, the flak frigate is also an anti-capital-ship weapon. However, that's for the marines. The aliens, however, get pesky little fighters (Skulks), but they don't have bombers, meaning their pesky little fighters absoutely suck against anything larger then a corvette.
See what I mean? The shotgun is viable the whole game. Skulks can't do much against HA: Leap is only useful for moving around a bit quicker, hardly useful for countering level 1/2 marines. Xenocide... c'mon, 2 xenos to kill a LA level 3 marine? How stupid is THAT? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bigger classes easily counter the shotgun at higher levels.
For example at 2 hives:
Stomp's range way outclasses shotgun's range, lerks dominate shotties. Skulks also get leap to help close in the distance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Shotguns kill structures faster then the grenade launcher. At level 3, it takes only 3 shots to waste an offense chamber. Not even a level 3 grenade launcher can do that. Furthermore, the grenade launcher has such an atrociously long reload time, and low ammo capacity (While the shotgun has the fastest reload time of any weapon), the shotgun definately excells. Solution: Shotgun should do PIERCING damage (50% damage to structures)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns kill structures a BIT slower than GL does, in terms of damage done bullet for bullet.
However, the shotgun itself kills individual amounts of structures WAY faster than GLs, due the GL's huge **** reload time, agreed.
But the GL is better than the shotty in general for buildings because of:
-Splash damage
-Kills all in area
Next, making Shotties deal 50% to structures is a terrible idea, it would complietly kill the opprotunity for marines to kill the hive quickly without seiges/GLs. Aliens should always have to watch out for incoming marine rushes.
Shotguns aren't also the fastest reload, if you count them reloading to full clip - The LMG is.
However, I do agree that shotguns kill structures a wee bit too fast -
Right now, it takes 36 lv. 0 shotgun shells, or 28 lv. 3 shotgun shells to knock out a hive. My proposed balance fix is that the shotty deals 2/3's damage to structures, making these numbers much more realistic, esp. from a large server's standpoint.
If 2/3's dmg applied to shotties, you would need 54 shotty shells to kill a hive, and 41 shells from lv. 3 shotties. Much more fair if you ask me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) The shotgun is viable at every stage in the game. Think about what would happen if gorge spit did 100 damage and was hitscan. Marines would die everywhere. Just like aliens die everywhere when a handful of skilled marines that know how to aim, and a commander who knows how to drop medpacks will make aliens, and the hive, die everywhere. Furthermore, one good shot against a fade will send him running for his life. Two against an onos and he'll be hurtin' as well. While the HMG can do overall more damage then the shotgun, frankly, the shotgun again, reloads about 30x faster then the HMG. Also, the HMG weighs more. And frankly, I don't find it very fair that the marines get a boomstick that's only useful at SHORT RANGE... wait... short range? Is that supposed to be BALANCE? Sorry, but almost all aliens rely on MELEE to kill. So a shotgun marine is theoretically invincible against anything short of a stomping onos or a silenced fade. [b]Solution: Shotgun does LIGHT damage (50% damage to onos, maybe even fade), and HMG slows your turning speed (Cap turning speed, like in Planetside) This makes shotgun = light critter defense, and HMG = big heavy critter defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun is not overpowered against other alien lifeforms, except in one area; it's reload is glitched, and it reloads too fast for it's animation. I'm sure this will be adressed, and with a slower shotty reload it should be a lot more balanced, rather than spam your shotty cannon, you will have to place shots much more carefully. Your assumption of the GL being too strong against other lifeforms is very premature. You just started to play NS 2.01, no? Give it more time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) The grenade launcher makes perfect base defense. The fact it does NO damage to friendlies and NO damage to structures means that: Skulks rush base. Skulks eat base. Marine fires grenades all over base, kills all skulks. The end. No. No no no. Grenade launcher needs to be for causing lots of pain to an onos, supressing the enemy, and assaulting structures. It should do 50-75% damage to friendly marines and structures. Abusable? Yes. But there's 10,000 other ways to loose the game for your team. Balanced? Very.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kinda agree with this. However, it should not damage buildings, only other marines. Damaging buildings is too unforgiving. Next, it should only deal 25% damage to marines, not 50-75%. It already deals 50% to the user already.
Of course i hate trying to pull real world logic into a game so i'll stop myself right there.
In homeworld 2, the flak frigate is good for absoutely chewing up pesky little fighters (Skulks). However, send that thing against anything larger then a corvette and it'll get chewed up something terrible.
Now in NS, the flak frigate is also an anti-capital-ship weapon. However, that's for the marines. The aliens, however, get pesky little fighters (Skulks), but they don't have bombers, meaning their pesky little fighters absoutely suck against anything larger then a corvette.
See what I mean? The shotgun is viable the whole game. Skulks can't do much against HA: Leap is only useful for moving around a bit quicker, hardly useful for countering level 1/2 marines. Xenocide... c'mon, 2 xenos to kill a LA level 3 marine? How stupid is THAT? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bigger classes easily counter the shotgun at higher levels.
For example at 2 hives:
Stomp's range way outclasses shotgun's range, lerks dominate shotties. Skulks also get leap to help close in the distance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Shotguns kill structures faster then the grenade launcher. At level 3, it takes only 3 shots to waste an offense chamber. Not even a level 3 grenade launcher can do that. Furthermore, the grenade launcher has such an atrociously long reload time, and low ammo capacity (While the shotgun has the fastest reload time of any weapon), the shotgun definately excells. Solution: Shotgun should do PIERCING damage (50% damage to structures)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns kill structures a BIT slower than GL does, in terms of damage done bullet for bullet.
However, the shotgun itself kills individual amounts of structures WAY faster than GLs, due the GL's huge **** reload time, agreed.
But the GL is better than the shotty in general for buildings because of:
-Splash damage
-Kills all in area
Next, making Shotties deal 50% to structures is a terrible idea, it would complietly kill the opprotunity for marines to kill the hive quickly without seiges/GLs. Aliens should always have to watch out for incoming marine rushes.
Shotguns aren't also the fastest reload, if you count them reloading to full clip - The LMG is.
However, I do agree that shotguns kill structures a wee bit too fast -
Right now, it takes 36 lv. 0 shotgun shells, or 28 lv. 3 shotgun shells to knock out a hive. My proposed balance fix is that the shotty deals 2/3's damage to structures, making these numbers much more realistic, esp. from a large server's standpoint.
If 2/3's dmg applied to shotties, you would need 54 shotty shells to kill a hive, and 41 shells from lv. 3 shotties. Much more fair if you ask me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) The shotgun is viable at every stage in the game. Think about what would happen if gorge spit did 100 damage and was hitscan. Marines would die everywhere. Just like aliens die everywhere when a handful of skilled marines that know how to aim, and a commander who knows how to drop medpacks will make aliens, and the hive, die everywhere. Furthermore, one good shot against a fade will send him running for his life. Two against an onos and he'll be hurtin' as well. While the HMG can do overall more damage then the shotgun, frankly, the shotgun again, reloads about 30x faster then the HMG. Also, the HMG weighs more. And frankly, I don't find it very fair that the marines get a boomstick that's only useful at SHORT RANGE... wait... short range? Is that supposed to be BALANCE? Sorry, but almost all aliens rely on MELEE to kill. So a shotgun marine is theoretically invincible against anything short of a stomping onos or a silenced fade. [b]Solution: Shotgun does LIGHT damage (50% damage to onos, maybe even fade), and HMG slows your turning speed (Cap turning speed, like in Planetside) This makes shotgun = light critter defense, and HMG = big heavy critter defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun is not overpowered against other alien lifeforms, except in one area; it's reload is glitched, and it reloads too fast for it's animation. I'm sure this will be adressed, and with a slower shotty reload it should be a lot more balanced, rather than spam your shotty cannon, you will have to place shots much more carefully. Your assumption of the GL being too strong against other lifeforms is very premature. You just started to play NS 2.01, no? Give it more time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) The grenade launcher makes perfect base defense. The fact it does NO damage to friendlies and NO damage to structures means that: Skulks rush base. Skulks eat base. Marine fires grenades all over base, kills all skulks. The end. No. No no no. Grenade launcher needs to be for causing lots of pain to an onos, supressing the enemy, and assaulting structures. It should do 50-75% damage to friendly marines and structures. Abusable? Yes. But there's 10,000 other ways to loose the game for your team. Balanced? Very.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kinda agree with this. However, it should not damage buildings, only other marines. Damaging buildings is too unforgiving. Next, it should only deal 25% damage to marines, not 50-75%. It already deals 50% to the user already. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In no particular order...
1) The shotgun reloading can be interrupted. It *IS* the fastest reloading gun. Reloading one round = one reload. It needs to reload 8 times to reload the whole gun, true, but considering I only need to reload one round to fire, that means.... yeah... I made my point. This interruption needs to go. Reloading time is a major balancing factor of guns. Why are shotguns exempt from it? Make the shotgun some horribly-designed clip-fed contraption that takes a while to reload. Curretnly shotgun has fast reload, massive damage, fast rate of fire, cheap... c'mon, where's the balance of this thing?
2) I said *THEORETICALLY* the shotgun user can be invincible, simply because it can kill ANYTHING in the game (Short of hives) with one clip. If the marine can keep moving, and can aim, he could take down an onos. Lerks are the only critter with a halfway decent ranged attack. In fact, I'm almost positive spike kills faster then acid rocket. Skulk leap to get closer? Er... sorry, but getting close to a shotgun isn't a great plan. Lerks die in one level 1 pistol clip. Give the shotgunner a jetpack and onos are useless (Assuming he's in a room where there's enough height to avoid the onos' jaws)
3) As for this: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next, making Shotties deal 50% to structures is a terrible idea, it would complietly kill the opprotunity for marines to kill the hive quickly without seiges/GLs. Aliens should always have to watch out for incoming marine rushes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->. And? How is that a bad thing? When marines shotgun rush, only two things can happen.
<i>1) The marine rush suceeds, they kill hive, aliens are **** off, some leave, GG.
2) Marine rush fails. Marines now have no res. Aliens kill. marines are **** off, some leave, GG</i>
Shotgun rushes add absolutely NOTHING to the game. They provide NO deeper gameplay value.
Make bilebomb a hive 1 ability then, replacing heal spray. Let's see how that works. You'll see the same thing: Everyone goes gorge, rushes, spits everyone to death, bilebombs nuke the marine spawn. What's the difference? Would a theoretical bilebomb / gorge rush be any LESS FUN? How would it be? Shotgun rushes RUIN THE GAME, no matter how you slice it. The only way it's fun is for the 8 year old commander who spends the next 10 minutes screaming "I PWN J00 NUBS OMG U SUK HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA".
4) Marines, structures, I don't care. The grenade launcher shoots huge damn payloads of explosives. Mines don't discriminate, why should a grenade? The user should have to TAKE CARE when using it, not just spam it at his feet and kill the ambush of skulks that is taking out his HA buddies and kill them instantly.
5) Finally, I fail to see how 10 res shotgun > 100 res onos, 50 res fade, 50 res hive, 10 res offense chamber, is balanced. Shotgun should be > skulks, gorges, lerks, and < fade, onos, and offense chambers. If there's a shotgun rush, gorges should go: Cool! and drop offense chambers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice - I said that the LMG reloads to <b>full clip</b> fastest. However, bullet for bullet, the shotgun is fastest, but it's still not very fast - if someone pulls this kinda stunt in mid fight against competant aliens he WILL die.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) I said *THEORETICALLY* the shotgun user can be invincible, simply because it can kill ANYTHING in the game (Short of hives) with one clip. If the marine can keep moving, and can aim, he could take down an onos. Lerks are the only critter with a halfway decent ranged attack. In fact, I'm almost positive spike kills faster then acid rocket. Skulk leap to get closer? Er... sorry, but getting close to a shotgun isn't a great plan. Lerks die in one level 1 pistol clip. Give the shotgunner a jetpack and onos are useless (Assuming he's in a room where there's enough height to avoid the onos' jaws)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make no sense. In theory, a skulk could kill the entire marine team, is free, and therefore is overpowered... jeez.
Next, in theory, one lone shotgunner will never beat the onos cause the onos kills him much faster, unless he's in HA, in which case the onos can devour him!!! Acid rocket kills faster than spike. Skulks leap to get closer, and get off at least one bite... not always possible, but not even the best marines are perfect. If several leaping skulks charge a shotgunner... unless the shotgunner has mad medspam, or the skulks suck, he will die.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Marine rush fails. Marines now have no res. Aliens kill. marines are **** off, some leave, GG
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotgun rushes can always be done without wasting all of your res.
The most likely thing to happen, #3 is that <i>Marines lost a rush, reorder themselves, prepare to attack or claim some other part of the map.</i>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make bilebomb a hive 1 ability then, replacing heal spray. Let's see how that works. You'll see the same thing: Everyone goes gorge, rushes, spits everyone to death, bilebombs nuke the marine spawn. What's the difference? Would a theoretical bilebomb / gorge rush be any LESS FUN? How would it be? Shotgun rushes RUIN THE GAME, no matter how you slice it. The only way it's fun is for the 8 year old commander who spends the next 10 minutes screaming "I PWN J00 NUBS OMG U SUK HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA".
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making bilebomb a hive 1 ability would be equivilent to making GL's avalible at an unupgraded armory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) Marines, structures, I don't care. The grenade launcher shoots huge damn payloads of explosives. Mines don't discriminate, why should a grenade? The user should have to TAKE CARE when using it, not just spam it at his feet and kill the ambush of skulks that is taking out his HA buddies and kill them instantly.
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The fact that mines don't discrimate is a bug being fixed for 2.1 Otherwise, it's way too unforgiving for PUB games to have marines kill their own structures so easily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5) Finally, I fail to see how 10 res shotgun > 100 res onos, 50 res fade, 50 res hive, 10 res offense chamber, is balanced. Shotgun should be > skulks, gorges, lerks, and < fade, onos, and offense chambers. If there's a shotgun rush, gorges should go: Cool! and drop offense chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying one shotgunner can beat a fade is a bit rediculous. Maybe 2-3, but one is obscure.
Other than that, the only thing shotguns are unfair about is that they kill buildings too fast, and they reload too fast.
And what other roles do you think the Marines need? They can already load out pretty well for fast hit-and-run, heavy tanking, and anti-structure/area-suppression. I'm not sure that I see many other viable tactics in a game as fast as NS, without delving into a fully class-based system, with medics and field commanders and whatnot. And I believe the NS team has no interest in going in that direction, thankfully.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I'm not advocating a class based system... it doesn't make any sense and the modularity of the game is beautiful. Overall, I'm not technically talking about specialize marine ROLES (I may have said otherwise in my original post... forgive me, I was tired and sick). Again, I'd like to stress that I'm merely saying that the Heavy Machinegun would be a more interesting weapon if it had a more specific application than what it as of now. What kind of application that may be, I'm not sure of... I wanted to know everyone's opinion on what it MIGHT be, or if even needs to be changed at all (and I've gotten a number of good ones, including yours, thank you).
Also... ****, <b>I didn't want a friggin weapon's debate</b>! That wasn't my intention.