<!--QuoteBegin--El Pollo Loco+Nov 5 2003, 07:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (El Pollo Loco @ Nov 5 2003, 07:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Spumbra? Are you guys for real? I personally belive that this is why Flayra likes to keep the changelogs private.
The first problem with spumbra is that it would be way WAY overpowered. A smart 2 hive lerk who is placing good umbra and spore cloads destroy marine teams. Spumbra would be just as bad as making a fade do 80 damage as he blinks.
As far as the spikes in favor bite? Am I the only person here who remembers the 1.04 Lerks that would take down Uber Jetpackers. Not the wimpy Jetpackers in 2.0 mind you, I mean the uber hover forever solo take down a hive jetpackers. Also, like I said before spikes would be overpowered to have at hive 1 with the new mine behavior. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Firstly:
What if slot 1 had 2 weapons, spike and bite. The only problem i see that causing is that you can't really quick switch to it instantly if it had it's own slot.
Spumbra would be a pretty silly idea. Normally you are sporing the rines while an onos runs up to kill them. The onos isn't instantly near the marines so spumbra would be wasted. It's easier to switch from spores to umbra.
<!--QuoteBegin--TheGuy+Nov 5 2003, 08:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheGuy @ Nov 5 2003, 08:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What if slot 1 had 2 weapons, spike and bite. The only problem i see that causing is that you can't really quick switch to it instantly if it had it's own slot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or if the lerk had 5 weapons, that would sort it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Sm|o||o|th+Nov 5 2003, 01:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sm|o||o|th @ Nov 5 2003, 01:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or if the lerk had 5 weapons, that would sort it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Due to an unknown evolution in the Kharaa, each species now has 5 attacks instead of 4. We believe it is caused by ....</i>
<!--QuoteBegin--i'm lost+Nov 5 2003, 08:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Nov 5 2003, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Sm|o||o|th+Nov 5 2003, 01:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sm|o||o|th @ Nov 5 2003, 01:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or if the lerk had 5 weapons, that would sort it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Due to an unknown evolution in the Kharaa, each species now has 5 attacks instead of 4. We believe it is caused by ....</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pfft... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
1.04 > 2.0
<i>The Lerk got gum disease and couldnt bite anymore, but he can scream!!</i>
2.0 > 2.1
<i>The lerk can bite again woohoo </i> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Only the Lerk needs 5 attacks <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why the lerk needs bite over spikes: Spikes + Spores are redundant. And this shows - why is the lerk the least popular class right now? Because the lerk gets no action? Not true, lerks can always be on the front lines. How about the fact that the lerk, if ambushed, is nearly 100% doomed to die, hell, if anything gets close to the lerk, it's screwed... the lerk has no way to defend itself. All it can do is support... this is stupid, the lerk should have some way to defend itself and provide support. This involves ditching spikes in favor of bite. Not only is this a great change, but I'm sure it will prove popular in time to come. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bite on a lerk is redundant too (aka flying skulk). <i>Spores and spike damage stack allowing amplified damage at long range</i>. Ask anybody who is good at lerk will tell you how much of a killing machine it can be. And I totally agree that the lerk is vulnerable when up close. When I use the lerk I make sure marines never close in on me. Not the games problem, I can fly away to survive. If I'm dumb not to run, who's problem is it then?
The lerk in its current form needs a nerf IMO, but I didn't imagine they'd replace an ability. Bite and spores don't stack, but still I *like* picking off marines at long range as much as I like biting marines heads. Though I agree that the other abilities can't be removed because they are needed to fulfill the support role of the lerk, and spike is least fulfilling of all of them. However, bite fulfills it even less since spikes can be used for cover fire (on top of spores too). But maybe the lack of stacking damage is just the nerf we need.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZeroByte+Nov 4 2003, 04:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZeroByte @ Nov 4 2003, 04:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--predatory_kangaroo+Nov 4 2003, 05:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (predatory_kangaroo @ Nov 4 2003, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ARGH! many months ago, a tech support guru gave me this code, and ever since i have not lagged and no-one sees me as lagging... <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> cl_rate 3400 rate 3400 cl_cmdrate 17 cl_updaterate 17 <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2--> Now it's gonna be ineffective? :'(
[EDIT] I missed out ONE page of this thread, and that turned out to be the one with information on this =/ Now I'm off to G4B2S to try and fine tune my config with cl_rate at 9999 [/EDIT] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You prolly can remove the cl_rate part and it would work like it's supposed to.
I usuallly take a wait and see stance on non-fixed beta changes, but.... what happened to the gorge bile bomb? I love going gorge and taking out bases, but wth? I think a nicer way to nerf unkillable vent gorges would be to reduce the damage of bile bomb if the gorges are higher/lower than the structures. Dunno. Oh well, I'll just leave it in the hands of the almighty Flay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeh, after a couple hours testing, i see barely any changes with cl_rate locked at 9999 So there's the proof for all my fellow 56kers p.s. I have been testing this on a 56k internet connection in Thailand <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Guys, it's not too difficult in 2.01 to set spore as your previous weapon and ubra as your current then just madly shoot while whacking lastinv into a crowded fight. Combining the two with a few tweaks wouldn't be much different from that really so I can't see it being overpowered considering it's mimicing something that's <b>pretty much already there</b> =/
I've seen several PTs mention focus doing 100% extra dmg for half the rate of fire while I've also heard from other places that it's +10/-20. No doubt it's probably been both at various points in testing and is still subject to change so there's not too much point in getting worked up about it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 5 2003, 09:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 5 2003, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, it's not too difficult in 2.01 to set spore as your previous weapon and ubra as your current then just madly shoot while whacking lastinv into a crowded fight. Combining the two with a few tweaks wouldn't be much different from that really so I can't see it being overpowered considering it's mimicing something that's <b>pretty much already there</b> =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Took the words right out of my mouth. The only difference is i have the weapon slots bound to keys so switching isn't really an issue. Add in adreniline and it might as well be one attack.
<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Nov 5 2003, 09:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Nov 5 2003, 09:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 5 2003, 09:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 5 2003, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, it's not too difficult in 2.01 to set spore as your previous weapon and ubra as your current then just madly shoot while whacking lastinv into a crowded fight. Combining the two with a few tweaks wouldn't be much different from that really so I can't see it being overpowered considering it's mimicing something that's <b>pretty much already there</b> =/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Took the words right out of my mouth. The only difference is i have the weapon slots bound to keys so switching isn't really an issue. Add in adreniline and it might as well be one attack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. I mean, if your spumbra affects both aliens and marines, then you have aliens and marines very close to each other. A bit of gas wont matter much when aliens are biting/slashing/goring at you. Of course, it might determine some battles..
But the real problem is that with spumbra, you would either have umbra at hive 1 or spores at hive 2, unless you go with the idea to have spumbra protect aliens at hive 2. But since no other alien attack is affected by more hives, that seems a bit.. strange. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
IMHO I love the sound of a 2nd hive spumbra. Obviously RoF, energy cost, etc would need to be taken into consideration, but it would be a handy ability that could be employed defensively or offensively.
Course thats because I love spike - its a handy little sniper weapon for taking down turrets and chipping at HA. I'm definitely in favour of retaining all 5 abilities with 2 of them being mashed together.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Nov 5 2003, 05:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Nov 5 2003, 05:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why the lerk needs bite over spikes: Spikes + Spores are redundant. And this shows - why is the lerk the least popular class right now? Because the lerk gets no action? Not true, lerks can always be on the front lines. How about the fact that the lerk, if ambushed, is nearly 100% doomed to die, hell, if anything gets close to the lerk, it's screwed... the lerk has no way to defend itself. All it can do is support... this is stupid, the lerk should have some way to defend itself and provide support. This involves ditching spikes in favor of bite. Not only is this a great change, but I'm sure it will prove popular in time to come. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bite on a lerk is redundant too (aka flying skulk). <i>Spores and spike damage stack allowing amplified damage at long range</i>. Ask anybody who is good at lerk will tell you how much of a killing machine it can be. And I totally agree that the lerk is vulnerable when up close. When I use the lerk I make sure marines never close in on me. Not the games problem, I can fly away to survive. If I'm dumb not to run, who's problem is it then?
The lerk in its current form needs a nerf IMO, but I didn't imagine they'd replace an ability. Bite and spores don't stack, but still I *like* picking off marines at long range as much as I like biting marines heads. Though I agree that the other abilities can't be removed because they are needed to fulfill the support role of the lerk, and spike is least fulfilling of all of them. However, bite fulfills it even less since spikes can be used for cover fire (on top of spores too). But maybe the lack of stacking damage is just the nerf we need. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, let me explain why your logic is flawed.
While yes, it's a flying skulk... so an onos is a tough skulk, a fade is a blinking skulk... blah blah. Wth are you talking about, they are completely different and have <b>totally</b> different playstyles.
Next. Spores + Spikes takes a lot of adrenaline to do correctly. And, to top off, you won't kill a marine if the comm doesn't want to. Medspam > <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> . By far and large. Bite + Spores will kill a marine FAR faster than spikes and spores ever could/would.
Next, being ambushed by fast shooting and accurate marines pretty much guarentees your death. Esp. if there are more than two marines that ambush you. And by ambush, I mean they don't surprise you, but they have you cornered, like 2 marines come down one hallway and 2 from another, or you are in a room with marines... yeah. Good shots will massacre you as a lerk.
Next, if you think bites are a nerf... har har har. Don't you remember 1.04? If bites are such a nerf, how come the lerk bite was the only thing that could stop the unbeatable jetpack rush? Plz, it's the farthest thing from a nerf.
Hmm... who's next?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, it's not too difficult in 2.01 to set spore as your previous weapon and ubra as your current then just madly shoot while whacking lastinv into a crowded fight. Combining the two with a few tweaks wouldn't be much different from that really so I can't see it being overpowered considering it's mimicing something that's pretty much already there =/<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More flawed logic. Having umbra early in the game is a killer, and having spores late in the game is a killer. Early umbra would kick the crap out of marines, and late spores would mean the aliens would never have an effective counter to medspam. You do realize that spores are the only effective counter to medspam?
And again, having both attacks combined into one thing would make a big difference. Namely, it removes whatever skill was involved with selecting your attacks and choosing where to spam them, and it also makes it possible for the role of two lerks to be filled by one in the blink of an instant. What I mean by a blink of an instant is that, normally, for one lerk to spore than umbra, there is a slight delay for shooting each attack... with 'spumbra' (worst name ever... god, just because you can combine it doesn't mean it's a good name), this is now done instantly. Perhaps not a noticible difference, but a difference nonetheless.
Forlorn, what I suggested for spumbra (yes it is a silly name but it saves alot of typing) would be different from what you think it would be. I suggested that the order would be Bite > Spumbra > Spikes > Primal scream. (Forlorn, keep reading, this seems to be the spot where you stopped in my last post.) At one hive the "spumbra" would only function like spores. At two hives it would gain its umbra capacity, and the lerk would gain spikes. No one suggested they stay exactly the same and in fact most people suggested that some sort of tweak in the area of energy use would be needed. Your arguement that it would be overpowered is defeated by simply using your last inv key to switch between spores and umbra in the current version. That tatic is very useable with adren and doesn't destroy the game. So, increase the energy cost for "spumbra" maybe slightly weaken the spores or some other aspect of it, but I and several others seem to think it is very viable.
Are you going out of your way to be as annoying condescending as possible? Comments like that just incite irritation so if you want to get your points across without making people want to find a reason to flame you I suggest you learn to write posts in a manner that doesn't reek of baiting arrogance.
I can see your points to a degree regarding the spore-umbra hybrid but the arguement to spores being <b>the</b> counter to medspam don't exactly wash it away and your cries about skill remind me of why there's so much trouble balancing the fade. Spores don't really counter medspam as such, they're just a handy tool to take the edge off it; if you want to go on about counters again, medspam in your use of the word is a counter for spores which kinda nullifies the arguement. At most spores is a 'compensatory tactic' against medspam, not a counter. The spores are still doing the same job whether there's any medspam or not. Another point is medspam only repairs health not armour which is why despite medspam a marine can still be taken down by particularly viscious skulks.
I don't mind the idea of combining the two at all... though maybe just calling it umbra/spores/a new name is better than 'spumbra' pointedly ^^;
<b>edit:</b> slight grammar fix <b>edit 2:</b> Torak's suggestion works too... ~shakes fist at torak for posting faster~ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And, to top off, you won't kill a marine if the comm doesn't want to. Medspam > <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You do realize that spores are the only effective counter to medspam?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I spot a slight inconsistency here here <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin---_Phoenix_-+Nov 5 2003, 11:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Nov 5 2003, 11:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And, to top off, you won't kill a marine if the comm doesn't want to. Medspam > <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You do realize that spores are the only effective counter to medspam?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I spot a slight inconsistency here here <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no consistancy there. While <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + medspam > <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> , make this combo a <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> > <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + Medspam. There needs to be a medspam icon. Medspam goes pretty much straight out the window once you get spores, so yes, while a lone lerk will get owned by a marine on medspam, start adding in teamwork with several skulks and a lerk vs. several marines, and those several marines will find themselves in an area which cannnot be effectivly medspammed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forlorn, what I suggested for spumbra (yes it is a silly name but it saves alot of typing) would be different from what you think it would be. I suggested that the order would be Bite > Spumbra > Spikes > Primal scream. (Forlorn, keep reading, this seems to be the spot where you stopped in my last post.) At one hive the "spumbra" would only function like spores. At two hives it would gain its umbra capacity, and the lerk would gain spikes. No one suggested they stay exactly the same and in fact most people suggested that some sort of tweak in the area of energy use would be needed. Your arguement that it would be overpowered is defeated by simply using your last inv key to switch between spores and umbra in the current version. That tatic is very useable with adren and doesn't destroy the game. So, increase the energy cost for "spumbra" maybe slightly weaken the spores or some other aspect of it, but I and several others seem to think it is very viable. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, lets dicuss more flaws with spumbra. As soon as you get to two hives, you can no longer just spore or just umbra. Now, not only must you get adrenaline to actually use this attack and do anything else (as I would assume that spumbra would up the adren cost to balance it, no? It would be upped so that it would cost the same as using spores and umbra.), such as flying biting or whatever. Adren would become an absolute nessecity. Sometimes, there are area's where only spores are needed, or even with adren you only want to use umbra and not waste energy on spores. If you had to fight HA, why even bother with spores? You would want all of your energy allocated to umbra usage only. Spumbra would make the lerk inflexible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Hmm... who's next?" Are you going out of your way to be as annoying condescending as possible? Comments like that just incite irritation so if you want to get your points across without making people want to find a reason to flame you I suggest you learn to write posts in a manner that doesn't reek of baiting arrogance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but when I have to start reiterating the same points over and over again I become condescending. I'll try and relax a bit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spores don't really counter medspam as such, they're just a handy tool to take the edge off it; if you want to go on about counters again, medspam in your use of the word is a counter for spores which kinda nullifies the arguement. At most spores is a 'compensatory tactic' against medspam, not a counter. The spores are still doing the same job whether there's any medspam or not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, while it doesn't <b>negate</b> medspam, it most certainly does <b>counter</b> it to a degree... normally, against lone skulks, medspam is great because for every bite they hit you with, you can just drop a medpack on them. In fact, you can drop meds right before they are bit, or drop more than they need as insurance to make sure that marine will win. However, with spores, you cannot drop meds before the skulk bites, as it will only heal the 8 dmg dealt by spores. You must drop it directly AFTER they are bitten, which makes medspamming a whole lot harder. If you drop more than the amount of medpacks nessesary, it's usally okay to do such a thing, as the marines can still use them... but with spores, exessive medspam is used up instantly, making the job of the skulk that much easier.
Spores are more certainly an effective counter than the other counter to medspam you suggested:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another point is medspam only repairs health not armour which is why despite medspam a marine can still be taken down by particularly viscious skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simply because wearing a marine thin on his armor usually means several of your skulks down the drain to do so. And if your skulks are dying, this means that their marines are killing, and pushing out and claiming ground. Spores pretty much makes medspam much more difficult, but a godlike comm can work around the effects of spores quite nicely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay, lets dicuss more flaws with spumbra. As soon as you get to two hives, you can no longer just spore or just umbra. Now, not only must you get adrenaline to actually use this attack and do anything else (as I would assume that spumbra would up the adren cost to balance it, no? It would be upped so that it would cost the same as using spores and umbra.), such as flying biting or whatever. Adren would become an absolute nessecity. Sometimes, there are area's where only spores are needed, or even with adren you only want to use umbra and not waste energy on spores. If you had to fight HA, why even bother with spores? You would want all of your energy allocated to umbra usage only. Spumbra would make the lerk inflexible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why there is this thing called beta testing. Sporing a HA train can be useful, often there are LA's mixed in, welding, picking up dropped weapons, building PG's and the like. It is definitely worth trying.
Spores causing medspam cause a resource drain consis tently and safely.
I personally use it for this reason more than killing marines. If I let them stay alive a little bit more, the more medspam they'll want from the com - the mo re drain on resources and com patience.
Let's see 4 marines = 8 resources for just one round of med spam. Keep that up for any length of time and you have a way to slow down the marine machine.
By the way, geminosity brought up a good point "Just use lastinv" I use both spre and umbra equally as it is.
Spiking is lame as a weapon for some sort of flying alien - no matter the situation. Sure you can chew armor when you get primal scream - but why bother when you can just primal scream an onos and alternate with umbra.
I've used it on buildings - it takes forever regardless. I've used it on a group of HA without stopping for 3 minutes (granted they were welding each other).
The bite appears much more interesting than sitting in a dark corner doing minimal damage.
Yeah, and <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + medspam + catalyst spam > <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> + the hive still goes down in 3 seconds. Seriously. A group of HA/HMG snuck into a hive and got some cat's. The hive blinked red once, then straight to grey. This is in the build where hives got an extra 1000 health.
So what? There are lots and lots of balance changes inherent to the new ways everything works. Talking theories based on 2.01 counters just doesn't mean much anymore. I know people want to argue about the lerk, but honestly it won't much matter. The devs will decide when they like how the lerk plays, and until then, no changes are guaranteed to stay, and pretty much every possible configuration of skills has been suggested.
Right now, the new counter for medspam seems to be focus. Medspam doesn't help when marines die in one hit. The new counter for lerks seems to be HA(for spores) and shotties(for bites). This will probably all change in a few days when the next build comes out. (Not that I know what's gonna be in the next build, but that each build tends to suprise us all.)
Interestingly drastic is such a massive understatement it's not even funny. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Flayra is so creative it's just not fair. The best part of beta testing is listening to all the ideas all the testers have, and then seeing what crazy new thing the devs do instead. Occationally some true gem of an idea some tester comes up with end up in there, but usually they just listen patiently, and then do something way better.
There was certainly a lot of gibbering in the constie forum when 2.1o was posted. Good stuff.
I dunno about granting an extra effect to the one attack, but I was thinking more of a straight combination with appropriate PTing for balance.
Sprayed over aliens, it gives some defence - sprayed over marines, some offensive power. Used as part of a coordinated rush you'd get the best benefit. Which IMHO keeps the lerk in its support role, keeps all the useful attacks, and means even a sporemonkey is giving his team some protective benefit.
Since it won't be as powerful as spore, and probably not as protective as umbra, focus could either enhance the duration or give a boost to power/defence. I'm no playtesting number cruncher but in SIMPLISTIC AND UNREALISTIC TERMS perhaps have something like a 10% to aliens while a 10% nerf to marines (or whatever number, I don't care, I'm just trying an example) which could be boosted up by focus to a higher percentage..... or the more simple method of increased duration.
Both spore and umbra are very useful, and I'd hate to see either go, and at the same time spike is a handy offensive attack for those who like to be cautious and perhaps haven't got their bite skills up to snuff.
IMHO it would allow for support lerks who'd go for adrenaline and spam the spore/umbra or primal scream, and offensive lerks who could use celer or silence and stick with spike and bite. Much like the division amongst gorges.
As I say, with proper testing, if it worked it would offer balanced gains with very little loss, and would keep the lerk in its support role while ALSO allowing an offensive role to exist.
Spikes with regen turns you into a turret farm/phasegate killing machine gun. A patient lerk can easily free a locked-down hive if he can get a line of sight on the TF/PG. Without spikes it will become so much harder to reclaim territory.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
It seems like alot of people are missing the point. You can pick from bite, spikes, and spore, and you can only have 2. Which 2 do you want? Personally I consider spikes to be more or less useless, so I'd take bite and spore.
here's the thing, if they leave the lerk how it is in 2.1o you can take down a tf and turrets by umbring yourself then biting. It's way faster. If you don't have umbra because they locked down two hives you're dumb and you deserve it.
<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBONE+Nov 5 2003, 05:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Nov 5 2003, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems like alot of people are missing the point. You can pick from bite, spikes, and spore, and you can only have 2. Which 2 do you want? Personally I consider spikes to be more or less useless, so I'd take bite and spore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Spike and Bite
Hey, I like that idea blindfire. I actually came up with it last ngiht and was planning on posting it, but you beat me to it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--[UVic]Albino Chinaman+Nov 5 2003, 11:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([UVic]Albino Chinaman @ Nov 5 2003, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->here's the thing, if they leave the lerk how it is in 2.1o you can take down a tf and turrets by umbring yourself then biting. It's way faster. If you don't have umbra because they locked down two hives you're dumb and you deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So a 2-hive lockdown by marines <i>should</i> mean that the aliens are screwed?
Comments
The first problem with spumbra is that it would be way WAY overpowered. A smart 2 hive lerk who is placing good umbra and spore cloads destroy marine teams. Spumbra would be just as bad as making a fade do 80 damage as he blinks.
As far as the spikes in favor bite? Am I the only person here who remembers the 1.04 Lerks that would take down Uber Jetpackers. Not the wimpy Jetpackers in 2.0 mind you, I mean the uber hover forever solo take down a hive jetpackers. Also, like I said before spikes would be overpowered to have at hive 1 with the new mine behavior. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly:
Bite > Spumbra > Spikes > Primal Scream... (spikes at hive 2)
Secondly:
You cant say Spumbra would be overpowered, it all depends on the adrenaline cost, the staying time, the bullet reduction, and the damage it does...
Also try to fly into a marine that has a shotty in 2.0, you wouldnt last a second...
Spumbra would be a pretty silly idea. Normally you are sporing the rines while an onos runs up to kill them. The onos isn't instantly near the marines so spumbra would be wasted. It's easier to switch from spores to umbra.
Or if the lerk had 5 weapons, that would sort it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>Due to an unknown evolution in the Kharaa, each species now has 5 attacks instead of 4. We believe it is caused by ....</i>
<i>Due to an unknown evolution in the Kharaa, each species now has 5 attacks instead of 4. We believe it is caused by ....</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pfft... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
1.04 > 2.0
<i>The Lerk got gum disease and couldnt bite anymore, but he can scream!!</i>
2.0 > 2.1
<i>The lerk can bite again woohoo </i> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Only the Lerk needs 5 attacks <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bite on a lerk is redundant too (aka flying skulk). <i>Spores and spike damage stack allowing amplified damage at long range</i>. Ask anybody who is good at lerk will tell you how much of a killing machine it can be. And I totally agree that the lerk is vulnerable when up close. When I use the lerk I make sure marines never close in on me. Not the games problem, I can fly away to survive. If I'm dumb not to run, who's problem is it then?
The lerk in its current form needs a nerf IMO, but I didn't imagine they'd replace an ability. Bite and spores don't stack, but still I *like* picking off marines at long range as much as I like biting marines heads. Though I agree that the other abilities can't be removed because they are needed to fulfill the support role of the lerk, and spike is least fulfilling of all of them. However, bite fulfills it even less since spikes can be used for cover fire (on top of spores too). But maybe the lack of stacking damage is just the nerf we need.
many months ago, a tech support guru gave me this code, and ever since i have not lagged and no-one sees me as lagging...
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
cl_rate 3400
rate 3400
cl_cmdrate 17
cl_updaterate 17
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Now it's gonna be ineffective? :'(
[EDIT]
I missed out ONE page of this thread, and that turned out to be the one with information on this =/
Now I'm off to G4B2S to try and fine tune my config with cl_rate at 9999
[/EDIT] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You prolly can remove the cl_rate part and it would work like it's supposed to.
I usuallly take a wait and see stance on non-fixed beta changes, but.... what happened to the gorge bile bomb? I love going gorge and taking out bases, but wth? I think a nicer way to nerf unkillable vent gorges would be to reduce the damage of bile bomb if the gorges are higher/lower than the structures. Dunno. Oh well, I'll just leave it in the hands of the almighty Flay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh, after a couple hours testing, i see barely any changes with cl_rate locked at 9999
So there's the proof for all my fellow 56kers
p.s. I have been testing this on a 56k internet connection in Thailand <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've seen several PTs mention focus doing 100% extra dmg for half the rate of fire while I've also heard from other places that it's +10/-20. No doubt it's probably been both at various points in testing and is still subject to change so there's not too much point in getting worked up about it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Took the words right out of my mouth. The only difference is i have the weapon slots bound to keys so switching isn't really an issue. Add in adreniline and it might as well be one attack.
Took the words right out of my mouth. The only difference is i have the weapon slots bound to keys so switching isn't really an issue. Add in adreniline and it might as well be one attack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. I mean, if your spumbra affects both aliens and marines, then you have aliens and marines very close to each other. A bit of gas wont matter much when aliens are biting/slashing/goring at you. Of course, it might determine some battles..
But the real problem is that with spumbra, you would either have umbra at hive 1 or spores at hive 2, unless you go with the idea to have spumbra protect aliens at hive 2. But since no other alien attack is affected by more hives, that seems a bit.. strange. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Course thats because I love spike - its a handy little sniper weapon for taking down turrets and chipping at HA. I'm definitely in favour of retaining all 5 abilities with 2 of them being mashed together.
Bite on a lerk is redundant too (aka flying skulk). <i>Spores and spike damage stack allowing amplified damage at long range</i>. Ask anybody who is good at lerk will tell you how much of a killing machine it can be. And I totally agree that the lerk is vulnerable when up close. When I use the lerk I make sure marines never close in on me. Not the games problem, I can fly away to survive. If I'm dumb not to run, who's problem is it then?
The lerk in its current form needs a nerf IMO, but I didn't imagine they'd replace an ability. Bite and spores don't stack, but still I *like* picking off marines at long range as much as I like biting marines heads. Though I agree that the other abilities can't be removed because they are needed to fulfill the support role of the lerk, and spike is least fulfilling of all of them. However, bite fulfills it even less since spikes can be used for cover fire (on top of spores too). But maybe the lack of stacking damage is just the nerf we need. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, let me explain why your logic is flawed.
While yes, it's a flying skulk... so an onos is a tough skulk, a fade is a blinking skulk... blah blah. Wth are you talking about, they are completely different and have <b>totally</b> different playstyles.
Next. Spores + Spikes takes a lot of adrenaline to do correctly. And, to top off, you won't kill a marine if the comm doesn't want to. Medspam > <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> . By far and large. Bite + Spores will kill a marine FAR faster than spikes and spores ever could/would.
Next, being ambushed by fast shooting and accurate marines pretty much guarentees your death. Esp. if there are more than two marines that ambush you. And by ambush, I mean they don't surprise you, but they have you cornered, like 2 marines come down one hallway and 2 from another, or you are in a room with marines... yeah. Good shots will massacre you as a lerk.
Next, if you think bites are a nerf... har har har. Don't you remember 1.04? If bites are such a nerf, how come the lerk bite was the only thing that could stop the unbeatable jetpack rush? Plz, it's the farthest thing from a nerf.
Hmm... who's next?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, it's not too difficult in 2.01 to set spore as your previous weapon and ubra as your current then just madly shoot while whacking lastinv into a crowded fight. Combining the two with a few tweaks wouldn't be much different from that really so I can't see it being overpowered considering it's mimicing something that's pretty much already there =/<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More flawed logic. Having umbra early in the game is a killer, and having spores late in the game is a killer. Early umbra would kick the crap out of marines, and late spores would mean the aliens would never have an effective counter to medspam. You do realize that spores are the only effective counter to medspam?
And again, having both attacks combined into one thing would make a big difference. Namely, it removes whatever skill was involved with selecting your attacks and choosing where to spam them, and it also makes it possible for the role of two lerks to be filled by one in the blink of an instant. What I mean by a blink of an instant is that, normally, for one lerk to spore than umbra, there is a slight delay for shooting each attack... with 'spumbra' (worst name ever... god, just because you can combine it doesn't mean it's a good name), this is now done instantly. Perhaps not a noticible difference, but a difference nonetheless.
Are you going out of your way to be as annoying condescending as possible? Comments like that just incite irritation so if you want to get your points across without making people want to find a reason to flame you I suggest you learn to write posts in a manner that doesn't reek of baiting arrogance.
I can see your points to a degree regarding the spore-umbra hybrid but the arguement to spores being <b>the</b> counter to medspam don't exactly wash it away and your cries about skill remind me of why there's so much trouble balancing the fade.
Spores don't really counter medspam as such, they're just a handy tool to take the edge off it; if you want to go on about counters again, medspam in your use of the word is a counter for spores which kinda nullifies the arguement. At most spores is a 'compensatory tactic' against medspam, not a counter. The spores are still doing the same job whether there's any medspam or not.
Another point is medspam only repairs health not armour which is why despite medspam a marine can still be taken down by particularly viscious skulks.
I don't mind the idea of combining the two at all... though maybe just calling it umbra/spores/a new name is better than 'spumbra' pointedly ^^;
<b>edit:</b> slight grammar fix
<b>edit 2:</b> Torak's suggestion works too... ~shakes fist at torak for posting faster~ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You do realize that spores are the only effective counter to medspam?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I spot a slight inconsistency here here <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 5 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You do realize that spores are the only effective counter to medspam?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I spot a slight inconsistency here here <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no consistancy there. While <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + medspam > <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> , make this combo a <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> > <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + Medspam. There needs to be a medspam icon. Medspam goes pretty much straight out the window once you get spores, so yes, while a lone lerk will get owned by a marine on medspam, start adding in teamwork with several skulks and a lerk vs. several marines, and those several marines will find themselves in an area which cannnot be effectivly medspammed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forlorn, what I suggested for spumbra (yes it is a silly name but it saves alot of typing) would be different from what you think it would be. I suggested that the order would be Bite > Spumbra > Spikes > Primal scream. (Forlorn, keep reading, this seems to be the spot where you stopped in my last post.) At one hive the "spumbra" would only function like spores. At two hives it would gain its umbra capacity, and the lerk would gain spikes. No one suggested they stay exactly the same and in fact most people suggested that some sort of tweak in the area of energy use would be needed. Your arguement that it would be overpowered is defeated by simply using your last inv key to switch between spores and umbra in the current version. That tatic is very useable with adren and doesn't destroy the game. So, increase the energy cost for "spumbra" maybe slightly weaken the spores or some other aspect of it, but I and several others seem to think it is very viable. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, lets dicuss more flaws with spumbra. As soon as you get to two hives, you can no longer just spore or just umbra. Now, not only must you get adrenaline to actually use this attack and do anything else (as I would assume that spumbra would up the adren cost to balance it, no? It would be upped so that it would cost the same as using spores and umbra.), such as flying biting or whatever. Adren would become an absolute nessecity. Sometimes, there are area's where only spores are needed, or even with adren you only want to use umbra and not waste energy on spores. If you had to fight HA, why even bother with spores? You would want all of your energy allocated to umbra usage only. Spumbra would make the lerk inflexible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Hmm... who's next?"
Are you going out of your way to be as annoying condescending as possible? Comments like that just incite irritation so if you want to get your points across without making people want to find a reason to flame you I suggest you learn to write posts in a manner that doesn't reek of baiting arrogance.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but when I have to start reiterating the same points over and over again I become condescending. I'll try and relax a bit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spores don't really counter medspam as such, they're just a handy tool to take the edge off it; if you want to go on about counters again, medspam in your use of the word is a counter for spores which kinda nullifies the arguement. At most spores is a 'compensatory tactic' against medspam, not a counter. The spores are still doing the same job whether there's any medspam or not.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, while it doesn't <b>negate</b> medspam, it most certainly does <b>counter</b> it to a degree... normally, against lone skulks, medspam is great because for every bite they hit you with, you can just drop a medpack on them. In fact, you can drop meds right before they are bit, or drop more than they need as insurance to make sure that marine will win. However, with spores, you cannot drop meds before the skulk bites, as it will only heal the 8 dmg dealt by spores. You must drop it directly AFTER they are bitten, which makes medspamming a whole lot harder. If you drop more than the amount of medpacks nessesary, it's usally okay to do such a thing, as the marines can still use them... but with spores, exessive medspam is used up instantly, making the job of the skulk that much easier.
Spores are more certainly an effective counter than the other counter to medspam you suggested:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another point is medspam only repairs health not armour which is why despite medspam a marine can still be taken down by particularly viscious skulks.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simply because wearing a marine thin on his armor usually means several of your skulks down the drain to do so. And if your skulks are dying, this means that their marines are killing, and pushing out and claiming ground. Spores pretty much makes medspam much more difficult, but a godlike comm can work around the effects of spores quite nicely.
That's why there is this thing called beta testing. Sporing a HA train can be useful, often there are LA's mixed in, welding, picking up dropped weapons, building PG's and the like. It is definitely worth trying.
I personally use it for this reason more than killing marines. If I let them stay alive a little bit more, the more medspam they'll want from the com - the mo re drain on resources and com patience.
Let's see 4 marines = 8 resources for just one round of med spam. Keep that up for any length of time and you have a way to slow down the marine machine.
By the way, geminosity brought up a good point "Just use lastinv" I use both spre and umbra equally as it is.
Spiking is lame as a weapon for some sort of flying alien - no matter the situation. Sure you can chew armor when you get primal scream - but why bother when you can just primal scream an onos and alternate with umbra.
I've used it on buildings - it takes forever regardless. I've used it on a group of HA without stopping for 3 minutes (granted they were welding each other).
The bite appears much more interesting than sitting in a dark corner doing minimal damage.
So what? There are lots and lots of balance changes inherent to the new ways everything works. Talking theories based on 2.01 counters just doesn't mean much anymore. I know people want to argue about the lerk, but honestly it won't much matter. The devs will decide when they like how the lerk plays, and until then, no changes are guaranteed to stay, and pretty much every possible configuration of skills has been suggested.
Right now, the new counter for medspam seems to be focus. Medspam doesn't help when marines die in one hit.
The new counter for lerks seems to be HA(for spores) and shotties(for bites). This will probably all change in a few days when the next build comes out. (Not that I know what's gonna be in the next build, but that each build tends to suprise us all.)
Flayra is so creative it's just not fair. The best part of beta testing is listening to all the ideas all the testers have, and then seeing what crazy new thing the devs do instead. Occationally some true gem of an idea some tester comes up with end up in there, but usually they just listen patiently, and then do something way better.
There was certainly a lot of gibbering in the constie forum when 2.1o was posted. Good stuff.
Sprayed over aliens, it gives some defence - sprayed over marines, some offensive power. Used as part of a coordinated rush you'd get the best benefit. Which IMHO keeps the lerk in its support role, keeps all the useful attacks, and means even a sporemonkey is giving his team some protective benefit.
Since it won't be as powerful as spore, and probably not as protective as umbra, focus could either enhance the duration or give a boost to power/defence. I'm no playtesting number cruncher but in SIMPLISTIC AND UNREALISTIC TERMS perhaps have something like a 10% to aliens while a 10% nerf to marines (or whatever number, I don't care, I'm just trying an example) which could be boosted up by focus to a higher percentage..... or the more simple method of increased duration.
Both spore and umbra are very useful, and I'd hate to see either go, and at the same time spike is a handy offensive attack for those who like to be cautious and perhaps haven't got their bite skills up to snuff.
IMHO it would allow for support lerks who'd go for adrenaline and spam the spore/umbra or primal scream, and offensive lerks who could use celer or silence and stick with spike and bite. Much like the division amongst gorges.
As I say, with proper testing, if it worked it would offer balanced gains with very little loss, and would keep the lerk in its support role while ALSO allowing an offensive role to exist.
I like to see Bite back but at the expense of Spikes? No way...
Spike and Bite
So a 2-hive lockdown by marines <i>should</i> mean that the aliens are screwed?