Key Map Locations
Gira
Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22405Members
Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22405Members
Sup?
Yo, I as thinkng?
In some maps there are key routes to your base. This key locations r one-passeged ways, they cant reach your base trought any other near route, besides that one.
So, Why dont we block the key routes e make them like mini bases? U can keep aliens out of your main base, having enough time to regroup and sending marine via PG to this mini bases...
Unfortunatly I havent found a good combo of building to protect this places, but a good one might be:
1- Turret Factory (eletrified)
2- 5-6 Turrets (more might be needed)(If possible with all weapon ups)
3- PG (A little far from the rest so it can be the last thing to be destroyed)
4- Siege (only when aliens r building near, besides no)
5- And last but not least, an armory, so marines dont have to rush base to get ammo...
Now...Put 1-2 Marines with HA and HMG/GL in 2 mini bases to protect and I guess it will b enough to protect your main base and a fast way to get to farther places (better than walking <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Say what do u guys think of it, and how can it be improved...
Yo, I as thinkng?
In some maps there are key routes to your base. This key locations r one-passeged ways, they cant reach your base trought any other near route, besides that one.
So, Why dont we block the key routes e make them like mini bases? U can keep aliens out of your main base, having enough time to regroup and sending marine via PG to this mini bases...
Unfortunatly I havent found a good combo of building to protect this places, but a good one might be:
1- Turret Factory (eletrified)
2- 5-6 Turrets (more might be needed)(If possible with all weapon ups)
3- PG (A little far from the rest so it can be the last thing to be destroyed)
4- Siege (only when aliens r building near, besides no)
5- And last but not least, an armory, so marines dont have to rush base to get ammo...
Now...Put 1-2 Marines with HA and HMG/GL in 2 mini bases to protect and I guess it will b enough to protect your main base and a fast way to get to farther places (better than walking <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Say what do u guys think of it, and how can it be improved...
Comments
But I think its a good call whem u dont have HA and enemies r rushing towards ur base (with three hives)
Besides, with one marine in each mini base eu still have 4 or 5 to make the train without the fear of losing your main base, in case the train don´t works...
For rines, you don't want bases IN hives, because all hives are ridiculously easy to get INTO. No, you put bases NEAR hives in prime locations, locking down alien traffic and easily putting several RTs in PATROL radius.
Tho tbh if you've time to make bases, you're either about to lose, or in the throes of victory. I prefer aggressive attacking to win games.
pg and seige, this is especially usefull near a hive or double res.
if u got the res a good idea is 2elec tf, skulks cant touch it.
fades get raped, is all goood stuff.
(do not attempt if they have 3 hives)
Meanwhile you've a stack of res in one spot that noone will touch until they're fade, and even then they can just blink hop over it. You can't hamper alien mobility using pure turrets.
While building minibases near hives is sometimes necessary due to good alien defences, if you're able of successfully rushing a hive WITHOUT a siege base then by all means do so, since in the time it takes you to build a minibase, aliens can have chambers all over the show or have evolved to higher organisms that will slice you up piecemeal.
There's really only 5 places on a map where a minibase is necessary; 3 hives, double res, marine start
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The 5 most suicidal places on any map.
Hives can't be defended forever. You can't do it. There's far too many ways in and out. Minibases in hives are LEFT ALONE until endgame because they're the easiest place to get rines out of. Do not confuse "left alone" with "easy to defend".
Second, double res is the most predictable place on the map. Every base you put there will be taken down in short order, costing you much more res than you can profit.
Finally, marine start is about as useful as a hive. While defense is somewhat important, you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.
Minibasing any of these locations will usually end up as the big graveyard at the end of the game, as rines pursue a futile effort to maintain their lamed up base. You want to win, you put your bases at junctions near several rts and a hive. You hamper alien movement, you keep the pressure on anything they build. You win the game.
Getting a hive, taking it down, laming it up, going to a new hive, taking it down, laming it up, etc is tbh an unskilled amateur strat that gets destroyed by any competent alien team. You need to rush hive, take hive, rush to next hive, etc - not waste res in pointless minibases.
And if you think it stops the aliens building the hive again, thats a joke - their rebuilt hive takes quite some time to build - in fact it'll only be built if you've wasted your time building a new minibase. If you rush the hives, then you can rush their partially rebuilt hive long before its active.
that sums it all up nicely
its going into my profile <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
There's really only 5 places on a map where a minibase is necessary; 3 hives, double res, marine start
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The 5 most suicidal places on any map.
Hives can't be defended forever. You can't do it. There's far too many ways in and out. Minibases in hives are LEFT ALONE until endgame because they're the easiest place to get rines out of. Do not confuse "left alone" with "easy to defend".
Second, double res is the most predictable place on the map. Every base you put there will be taken down in short order, costing you much more res than you can profit.
Finally, marine start is about as useful as a hive. While defense is somewhat important, you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.
Minibasing any of these locations will usually end up as the big graveyard at the end of the game, as rines pursue a futile effort to maintain their lamed up base. You want to win, you put your bases at junctions near several rts and a hive. You hamper alien movement, you keep the pressure on anything they build. You win the game.
Getting a hive, taking it down, laming it up, going to a new hive, taking it down, laming it up, etc is tbh an unskilled amateur strat that gets destroyed by any competent alien team. You need to rush hive, take hive, rush to next hive, etc - not waste res in pointless minibases.
And if you think it stops the aliens building the hive again, thats a joke - their rebuilt hive takes quite some time to build - in fact it'll only be built if you've wasted your time building a new minibase. If you rush the hives, then you can rush their partially rebuilt hive long before its active.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This game is an RTS/FPS hybrid, therefore RTS ideas/rules/strategies still apply. It's a game of optimization, meaning timing and being agressive is everything. All of the above assumes that the commander has practiced enough to optimize rez/upgrades/expansion and the players underneath him/her are COMPETENT enough for the general strategy of the commander to be carried out. I merely pointed out in my previous post that these 5 points are the only points really WORTH defending. The gains greatly outweigh the investment.
Partially built hives are the most dangerous IMHO; a single movement chamber can teleport the entire alien team into the hive. That is why you HAVE to defend hives. As for double res, they are not essential, but they are important. If you don't have it, they will. The main purpose of holding double res is so that the aliens can't have it, plus, it does give you 2 extra respoints. Now, as for marine start, this is a no-brainer, i agree with you on not putting all the eggs in one basket.
Hives, marines start only have 2-3 entrances, usually with one weldable reducing it to 2. Double res usually has 2-4, with one weldable, reducing it to 2-3. 2-3 entrances might seem like a lot, but it is still a managable number in avenues of attack. Hives and double are natural focal points on the maps and WILL hamper alien EXPANSION. There is, however, a major problem with putting minibases at junctions. The 3-5 differnet directions it can be attacked from. Usually at these sites, you have an extremely short amount of time to throw up defences. There is no adequate time to ORGANIZE a defence. This, plus the amount of ways you can be attacked, leaves you with quite a bit of wasted res.
A real world example of this would be the French at Dien Bien Phu. An "airhead" (like beachhead), equivelent of minbase, in a valley (junction) with multiple avenues of attack. Supported by paras/air drops (phase gate). Enemy destroys outposts of airhead, followed by disabling the airfield. Ending with surrender and destruction of airhead. The French had superior technology, greater firepower, but was still overcome. Why did the French do this? They wanted a stand-up fight with the Vietminh, and the only way to do this was to create a foothold deep in enemey territory, disrupting enemy supplies/communication and forcing a fight. Why did it fail? It had no strategic value other than to provoke a fight. It was deep in enemy territory, with only one main method of support. When that was cut off, all assets present were as good as gone. Sun-Tse has something along the lines of this in "The Art of War".
It held true for the Chinese 2000 years ago, it held true for the French 50 years ago, and generally, it continues to hold true in the world of NS; an outpost with little strategic value and only a thorn in the enemy's side, will, inevitably be removed.
Yo, I as thinkng?
In some maps there are key routes to your base. This key locations r one-passeged ways, they cant reach your base trought any other near route, besides that one.
So, Why dont we block the key routes e make them like mini bases? U can keep aliens out of your main base, having enough time to regroup and sending marine via PG to this mini bases...
Unfortunatly I havent found a good combo of building to protect this places, but a good one might be:
1- Turret Factory (eletrified)
2- 5-6 Turrets (more might be needed)(If possible with all weapon ups)
3- PG (A little far from the rest so it can be the last thing to be destroyed)
4- Siege (only when aliens r building near, besides no)
5- And last but not least, an armory, so marines dont have to rush base to get ammo...
Now...Put 1-2 Marines with HA and HMG/GL in 2 mini bases to protect and I guess it will b enough to protect your main base and a fast way to get to farther places (better than walking <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Say what do u guys think of it, and how can it be improved... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experience, there are only one place to build mini-bases, and that is in really, really important junctions.
Take veil. You can seal of cargo hive from basically the whole map with one TF at each end, and then securing Pipeline. Building minibases should be in hives or keylocations, that gives you a large area of space behind them.
This way you can access RTs without fearing them destroyed...
This game is an RTS/FPS hybrid, therefore RTS ideas/rules/strategies still apply.
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No. Its a hybrid, therefore many things do NOT apply, since in every case you've to factor in the sheer random behaviour of your individual teammates and opponents. Thats the motivations of upwards of 12 people - a hell of a bit different to 4 players or a predictable AI.
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I merely pointed out in my previous post that these 5 points are the only points really WORTH defending. The gains greatly outweigh the investment.
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No, they're not really worth defending, because the enemy will counter attack wiping out everything you've placed, unless you intend to hole up till endgame. Its all very well to claim a "competent" comm and team, but a competent comm and team don't need to monopolise dbl res. Neither do they sit in marine spawn swapping war stories. And I doubt any competent comm would advocate heavy building IN a hive when virtually every hive in the game is easily breached by either team.
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Partially built hives are the most dangerous IMHO;
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Actually the beauty of it is that you can attack the building hive, drawing aliens to the area while your other squad prepare to rush the primary. Once the aliens are at the building hive, they can find themselves trapped because you've taken out the MC that would allow them a speedy return. My point came about because several times I've seen marine teams sit 6 men in a still building hive and **** SIEGES rather than drop an armoury and shoot/spam the hive.
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That is why you HAVE to defend hives.
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No, not really. If you have turrets up, and they shoot the building hive, then the aliens can relocate instantly. That is NOT a wise thing. Better to have your base NEAR a hive, so that aliens will not attack the base, instead thinking that they can drop the hive and just hide it.
Of course your base is nearby and in siege range and thus if your team is full of smacktards, you can siege if necessary - but the point is that it'll still be there, whereas EVERY hive base is usually destroyed to allow the hive to be put up with ease (or failing that under a sensory cloak). Why waste large amounts of res laming up predictable attack points of no real value? Just drop the RTs and move along, keep your bases where they can be DEFENDED. That increases your res profits.
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As for double res, they are not essential, but they are important. If you don't have it, they will.
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So why the hell would you lame it up? You can rush in a team to take down any structures which are built, and the only cost will be manpower plus 2 rts. If you lame it up, you lose manpower, 2 rts, tfs, and who knows how many turrets. Its pointless.
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The main purpose of holding double res is so that the aliens can't have it,
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And the CHEAPEST way is a base near dbl but within range of a hive or several other rts so that you can PATROL them, rather than lame up areas which are ridiculously easy to get in and out of.
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Hives, marines start only have 2-3 entrances, usually with one weldable reducing it to 2. Double res usually has 2-4, with one weldable, reducing it to 2-3. 2-3 entrances might seem like a lot, but it is still a managable number in avenues of attack.
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Which is nice on paper but ingame is insane. Of course you CAN lame them up but then it only takes one clever opponent to turn that res into a deficit. If you've only 2 rts in dbl res, you'll turn profit more often than not. Rebuilding will NOT be as costly. And you can do it with just two rines.
This frees up your men to attack elsewhere, which ALSO has the additional effect of making the aliens split their forces - unless they all rush dbl res just to kill 2 rines and 2 rts......... while your other 3 rines are setting up an IP rush or some other nasty surprise.
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Hives and double are natural focal points on the maps and WILL hamper alien EXPANSION.
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No. They will NOT hamper alien expansion. Dbl res nodes are easily bypassed, most aliens hug the vents, and hives are too bloody easy to get into. You just spend a lot of res for no *real* gain.
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There is, however, a major problem with putting minibases at junctions. The 3-5 differnet directions it can be attacked from.
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One base can cover a hive and 2-3 rts. Since two of these can seal off a map, you can afford to spend more on them, as opposed to 5-6 scattered little bases that will be easy to get into. Aliens need to get INTO the base and then OUT again. Because you've only these two bases, marine defence becomes a snap, and you can easily keep track of alien movements. You shift the aliens onto a defensive stance since every single move they make will involve going through 1 base which can incorporate the cost of roughly 2.5 minibases and STILL be profitable. In fact more so, since these two areas are where most of the fighting will be.
If aliens take an rt down, you can either siege from these two areas or send out some rines with shotguns. Or if you're more daring, you can rush the hive with base LMGs and still take it to half health while the aliens are wasting their time leaping around 2 massive bases to cap res which will cost you next to nothing to replace.
Of course this will NOT work as a pure defence strat. The two bases are designed as offensive chokes to seal off movement and facilitate your hive rush. They are NOT designed as places for the team to sit on their backside and tech up. They CAN be used for that purpose but you'll quickly be res starved and the aliens will lame up every hive because they'll be EXPECTING a rush.
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Usually at these sites, you have an extremely short amount of time to throw up defences. There is no adequate time to ORGANIZE a defence. This, plus the amount of ways you can be attacked, leaves you with quite a bit of wasted res.
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Once the base is up, you can addon structures as necessary. Defence is a snap because you'll have 2 directions to look at, unless aliens loop round. Your initial res goes into covering the most direct ways in. With the initial alien rush controlled (remember you're going to only one area en masse, so the aliens would all need to rush in order to maintain balanced odds) you can drop the basic defences, then upgrade as necessary. With the base suitably maintained, you can move to a hive straight away or rush to the second choke.
Of course you can optionally split your men and build at the safest place first, but lets not get carried away with all the variations.
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A real world example of this would be...
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Would be totally irrelevant, since this is not the real world. While certain tactics can be translated, most lose something in the translation.
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Sun-Tse has something along the lines of this in "The Art of War".
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Well since you want to mention Sun Tzu...
"Throw your soldiers into positions whence there is no
escape, and they will prefer death to flight. If they will face
death, there is nothing they may not achieve."
Sun Tzu also said that the general should keep his men in the dark, something which doesn't work in NS. Which takes us back to the comparison between Reality and Gaming.
If they can't defend with their backs to the wall, then you'll know very quickly how good your team is.
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an outpost with little strategic value and only a thorn in the enemy's side, will, inevitably be removed.
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So why indeed build in MS, hives, or dbl res? Taking two dedicated choke points means they have inherent strategic value, and from that area you can annhilate your surrounds with ease. You force the aliens to engage in a costly counter siege, bleeding them dry of res (also against Sun-Tzu's teachings) and you force the enemy to come to you on your terms (supported by Sun-Tzu's teachings).
So I'd rather have my dedicated chokepoints that'll last the round rather than half a dozen pointless little bases in areas where they'll be wiped out repeatedly for no gain.
but imo, its quite risky cos it costs a load of res and without marines doing a good job i dont think it would last long
in a game called "Age of Empires"
you can build walls and defensive structures.
now in a 2 player game
player 'A' Turtles and builds walls and towers and an army.
player 'B' upgrades offence builds an army and siege weapons.
player 'A' is slow to produce his attack weapons cause hes been spending his RES on building defense just as player 'A' starts building attack weapons player 'B' brings his army and knocks down player 'A's walls and towers.
whats the morale of this story "Turtle and die". Spending 150 res defending one location could keep aliens out of that location for 5 mins. In that 5 mins you could have spent 150 res on 'Upgraded Armoury' (30) 'Proto Lab' (40) 'Heavy Armour Research' (40) assuming you would have 'lvl1 armour' and 'lvl1 weapons' it could have gotten you 'lvl2 Weapons' (30) also. which is better a mini base that will fall to 1 onons or a big bunch of offensive research?
The next time you do this, i hope that you find a really good spot to put one of these bases.
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I did, I just gave you examples of locations. You didn't read them.
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I hope that you'll have enough meds to spam when lerks start shooting spores down this open ended barrel.
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My usual players don't sit in the middle of spore clouds, they rush out of base to attack while the aliens camp it up outside.
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I hope that you'll have enough IPs to cover the loses incurred by fades.
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Lerks and fades rushing an empty base while the marine team is in their hive? Pretty dumb. And thats assuming the base is nowhere near the hive, and as I've said it usually is within siege range of a hive and several rts.
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I hope you can spare enough manpower to patrol.
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Easily, considering a 6 v 6 game. You need only send one marine into FRIENDLY terrain to cap the rts.
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I hope that you'll be able to rush that 2nd hive 4 minutes into the game.
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Easily - in fact you'll have a choice of both hives if you've placed the base right.
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I hope your marines will be able to avoid being stomped in that long hallway.
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Which long hallway would that be? The marines would have to be on the ground inside their base yes? Surrounded by up to three times as many as normal turrets because its ALL IN ONE PLACE. Onos gets totalled.
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I hope you'll have the res to rush/siege that 3rd hive that's really close to you.
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Tons of res, because the aliens will be virtually completely starved.
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I hope you'll have enough manpower/res for construction of other projects away from this so called distraction.
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What other projects? You can drop structures at either base or MS if need be, and once your two bases are up all your building is done.
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For yours, and your marines' sake, I hope so.
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For your sake I hope you learn to read people's posts, correctly judge situations and learn that bringing up Sun Tzu will inevitably result in your poor grasp of strategy being shown to the world.
Honestly, whats the point of being in a thread if all you intend to do is ignore people's points and make glib little comments.