Would You Use Umbra With A 25% Block Rate?

24

Comments

  • S2R2S2R2 Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21209Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 12 2003, 06:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 12 2003, 06:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    IT SHOULD BLOCK 66%, AS PROMISED!

    Also, preform more tests to be 100% sure on this... but I'm gonna do my own research if possible on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    All the times I have tested it the rate of block works out to be about 66%
    Like somone already said the change of it hitting you is 33 and 1/3 % for each bullet
    this means if you are unluckly then they never will miss
    However If you are very luckly then they will never hit which I have seen this happen a few times
    But the average is 66%
    It like Dice
    Each side on one die has a 1 in 6 chance of coming up
    But this does not mean that if you roll a dice 6 times you will get each side once or the same side 6 times in a row
    you have the best odds of getting at least 3 differnt sides
    But you may roll the same side all six times but they is 46656 possable rolls for this 6 rolls on one 6-sided die (6^6)
    The odds of rolling a 6 every time very low
    The odds of rolling atleast 3 differnt numbers is very high

    So it is the same in the game
    Some people may get less lucky and get hit with only about 33% or 25% or any % of bullets
    Some people may get very lucky and have 90+% miss them
    <b> MOST </b> (but not all) should have 66% miss them
  • ScribblesScribbles Join Date: 2003-11-05 Member: 22323Members
    edited November 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--S2R2+Nov 12 2003, 07:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (S2R2 @ Nov 12 2003, 07:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 12 2003, 06:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 12 2003, 06:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    IT SHOULD BLOCK 66%, AS PROMISED!

    Also, preform more tests to be 100% sure on this... but I'm gonna do my own research if possible on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    All the times I have tested it the rate of block works out to be about 66%
    Like somone already said the change of it hitting you is 33 and 1/3 % for each bullet
    this means if you are unluckly then they never will miss
    However If you are very luckly then they will never hit which I have seen this happen a few times
    But the average is 66%
    It like Dice
    Each side on one die has a 1 in 6 chance of coming up
    But this does not mean that if you roll a dice 6 times you will get each side once or the same side 6 times in a row
    you have the best odds of getting at least 3 differnt sides
    But you may roll the same side all six times but they is 46656 possable rolls for this 6 rolls on one 6-sided die (6^6)
    The odds of rolling a 6 every time very low
    The odds of rolling atleast 3 differnt numbers is very high

    So it is the same in the game
    Some people may get less lucky and get hit with only about 33% or 25% or any % of bullets
    Some people may get very lucky and have 90+% miss them
    MOST (but not all) should have 66% miss them <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    And that is where statictics come in, smartiepants.

    Jeah it is possible for 100 bullets to hit even if they have a 66% chance of missing each. However, do you realise how tiny the chance is that such a scenario would actually happen? I think it's safe to assume that currently the blocking % is 25% and not 66% as promised.
  • rockst4rrockst4r Join Date: 2003-08-14 Member: 19682Members
    at least some people get the idea of my post.... thanks a lot

    umbra is one of the best abilities in ns. it promotes teamwork more than any other ability and thus should not be flawed.

    at 66% umbra "increases" a creatures hitpoints by the factor 3 (w00t)

    at 25% umbra "increases" a creatures hitpoints by the factor 1.33 (baaah)

    did you ever see that the aliens start a coordinated attack with 1 lerk, 1 onos and one gorge instead of just 2 onos? no. in fact its far cheaper and more powerfull. umbra supports more variety in attacks and thus greatly improves gameplay. you will never see an onos attacking alone with a lerk in this version coz it would die a painful death. with the new umbra everything is possible... its just needs teamwork ;D.

    PS: i will open a thread in the bugs forum and test it further over a longer period of time. and i will not just leave <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->... you won't be able to get rid of me that easy.
  • ChargeCharge Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13144Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--rockst4r+Nov 12 2003, 07:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rockst4r @ Nov 12 2003, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> at least some people get the idea of my post.... thanks a lot

    umbra is one of the best abilities in ns. it promotes teamwork more than any other ability and thus should not be flawed.

    at 66% umbra "increases" a creatures hitpoints by the factor 3 (w00t)

    at 25% umbra "increases" a creatures hitpoints by the factor 1.33 (baaah)

    did you ever see that the aliens start a coordinated attack with 1 lerk, 1 onos and one gorge instead of just 2 onos? no. in fact its far cheaper and more powerfull. umbra supports more variety in attacks and thus greatly improves gameplay. you will never see an onos attacking alone with a lerk in this version coz it would die a painful death. with the new umbra everything is possible... its just needs teamwork ;D.

    PS: i will open a thread in the bugs forum and test it further over a longer period of time. and i will not just leave <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->... you won't be able to get rid of me that easy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    LET's MAEK TEH ALIEN ROXOR J00
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--Charge+Nov 12 2003, 09:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Charge @ Nov 12 2003, 09:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--rockst4r+Nov 12 2003, 07:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rockst4r @ Nov 12 2003, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> at least some people get the idea of my post.... thanks a lot

    umbra is one of the best abilities in ns. it promotes teamwork more than any other ability and thus should not be flawed.

    at 66% umbra "increases" a creatures hitpoints by the factor 3  (w00t)

    at 25% umbra "increases" a creatures hitpoints by the factor 1.33  (baaah)

    did you ever see that the aliens start a coordinated attack with 1 lerk, 1 onos and one gorge instead of just 2 onos? no. in fact its far cheaper and more powerfull. umbra supports more variety in attacks and thus greatly improves gameplay. you will never see an onos attacking alone with a lerk in this version coz it would die a painful death. with the new umbra everything is possible... its just needs teamwork ;D.

    PS: i will open a thread in the bugs forum and test it further over a longer period of time. and i will not just leave <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->... you won't be able to get rid of me that easy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    LET's MAEK TEH ALIEN ROXOR J00 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Or make an ability usefull... yeah.
  • rockst4rrockst4r Join Date: 2003-08-14 Member: 19682Members
    new results with 135 fired bullets:

    135 total
    84 hit (62%)
    51 missed (38%)

    it seems that they just got the number false. they made it let 66% bullets through instead of making it block 66%.

    got to be pretty easy to correct that little mistake (if it is a mistake at all).
  • deathst4rdeathst4r Join Date: 2003-08-10 Member: 19365Members
    edited November 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Nov 11 2003, 04:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Nov 11 2003, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Umbra isn't the most useful ability, its about as good as gorge spit, but even gorges can spit you to death sometimes.
    Just how Umbra can save you long enough to fight back. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    With the difference that SPIT is a Hive 0 ability and UMBRA is a Hive 2 ability. Got it?

    It would be nice, if somebody really patient could do rockst4r's test with - let's say - 10.000 bullets, so that it becomes more representative.
    The fact is that UMBRA at its current state SEEMS TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY FLAWED and that the DEVs should fix it or explain why it should be kept as it is.

    <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->

    @ Hive 2: Oh, man! I meant it, but my fingers didn't type it. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    edited November 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--deathst4r+Nov 12 2003, 07:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (deathst4r @ Nov 12 2003, 07:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Nov 11 2003, 04:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Nov 11 2003, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Umbra isn't the most useful ability, its about as good as gorge spit, but even gorges can spit you to death sometimes.
    Just how Umbra can save you long enough to fight back. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    With the difference that SPIT is a Hive 0 ability and UMBRA is a Hive 3 ability. Got it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    2. Hive 2 ability. It's in the third weapon slot.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I'm sure it was just a typo.
    deathst4r, even with 10 000 bullets, it wouldn't help much, the only way to be 100% sure about the hit% is to check the code, and only Flayra(and Max I suppose) can do that.
  • AmelekAmelek Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16265Members
    Yeah, I did get the impression that umbra was NOT blocking 2 out of 3 bullets too. As aliens I'm a lerk more than anything, and once 2 hives comes up I rarely spike anymore (except for 1 on 1 duels lol), since all my time is spent sporing med spam and covering marines with umbra. Now, I am rarely in my own umbra, but on the few occasions I was I noticed almost no difference. I really hope a dev can comment on this, so the rumors don't grow too out of control.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    I personally think against shotguns even that minor bonus would kick ****.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ashaman Joe+Nov 11 2003, 10:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ashaman Joe @ Nov 11 2003, 10:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IIRC the 5/6 blocker was centered on the lerk, and took quite a lot of energy, so it had to last long and be effective. Also, wasn't that back in wonderfull 1.04 where a hive cost 80 res? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    that's why we don't want it back in 2.x
  • ToboldTobold Join Date: 2003-06-16 Member: 17405Members
    i believe umbra was originally 2/3 (66.67%) in 1.0x and in 2.0 was toned down, and rightfully so - i thought it was to 1/3 (33.33%) but i may be mistaken.
    Try repeating your experiment, you could have easily been an anomaly.
    Also think about it - 25% is actually quite alot in effect it reduces LMG clip to 35bullets - thats 150damage less (if the target as 0armour) and you can fly about inside your 'bubble' of umbra to avoid more bullets meaning your chances of survival when attacked by a marine at close range are greatly increased
  • Owl_Force_OmegaOwl_Force_Omega Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14048Members
    Two things:

    1) The perception is that rockst4r's intentions are to change Umbra. That perception is false. He is ONLY pointing out that there is a bug in the number of bullets ADVERTISED to penetrate Umbra vs. ACTUALLY penetrating Umbra.

    2) Maybe this is a random number generator seeding issue/bug? What equipment was your server running on, rockst4r? If it was Windows, perhaps the random number generator needs to be seeded correctly.

    When things based on probability mess up, it is sometimes prudent to look to the way in which the random number is generated.
  • rockst4rrockst4r Join Date: 2003-08-14 Member: 19682Members
    i did several tests until now:

    total hits misses
    69 52 17
    79 49 30
    107 70 37
    135 84 51
    -----------------------
    390 255 135

    100% 65% 35%

    (only ~35% miss, its pretty close to 1/3 and i guess 390 fired shots are enough to prove it)


    it obvious: its lets 2/3 through instead of blocking 2/3 atm

    they just mixed up the numbers
  • Fat_WangFat_Wang Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20420Members
    ive actually had 0 out of 125 bullets hit me as skulk. i was running to him (he was ha) and he unloaded his pistol bullets into me. thankfully, all of da shots missed so i was still alive. at this time a lerk cums and umbras me continually while i stand point-blank to a ha/hmger. i chomp on him while he unloads his hmg into me. to my (and his too) amazement i was still alive and had full hp and ap. i put a few more chomps on him and i guess i depleted his armor while comm spammed him with medpaks. da medpaks finally stopped and i paraed him to death. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • 2of12B0RG2of12B0RG Join Date: 2002-12-21 Member: 11285Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Fat_Wang+Nov 12 2003, 04:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fat_Wang @ Nov 12 2003, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ive actually had 0 out of 125 bullets hit me as skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think that's the only part of your story that would have been useful in this post.


    Anyways, umbra is lame now. It ruled in 1.04.
  • MajinMajin Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16829Members, Constellation
    DID YOU KNOW?:

    Umbra gets its name from a lighting effect durring a lunar eclipse.
  • rockst4rrockst4r Join Date: 2003-08-14 Member: 19682Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks for reporting this. I passed it along to our QA lead (grepdashv) who will check to see if the problem still exists and will add it to our bug database so that we can be sure to fix it before 2.1 is released.

    Max <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i guess my job is done... hopefully the are able to solve the problem.

    thx a lot Max
  • SDJasonSDJason Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
    Actually.. im always the lerk... who umbras like mad.. i umbra skulks, gorges, fades, onos.. WHATEVER...

    And even at 25 percent you WILL see a difference... trust me..

    Sometimes i get 2 lerks together.. then it gets hectic.... one sporin/spiking..... one umbraing.... base falls quick....


    Also umbra can help with cc rushes late game.... get about 5-6 onos to rush in with umbra support... that cc goes down in like 5-10 seconds... u may lose 5 onos out of 6... and even the 6th one... but with no cc the game will be over soon after that.....

    even at 25 percent its useful... but i agree it SHOULD be 66 percent for balance reasons......

    Question though.. i heard it mentioned somewhere that hmg isnt as affected by umbra as other weapons..... as a balance factor to counter that huge bonus umbra gives.. that should stay in... along with the negation by grenades.... since it cant be an uber weapon..

    make it 0 percent vs grenades and knife
    25 or 33 percent verses HMG
    66 percent verses all other weapons

    ~Jason
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <b><i>WOW</b></i>

    Once this is fixed, I expect to see a lot more lerkage.... a lerk in a umbra cloud will become a tank! A fade backed up by umbra will have more life than an onos!

    And onos backed up by umbra will be a monster!
  • eggmaceggmac Join Date: 2003-03-03 Member: 14246Members
    Actually, does it matter how the numbers look like? It just matters how the game is played, and at the moment umbra is already quite powerful, especially in an organized attack or defense. So if the problem is "fixed" the numbers will have to be tweaked again in order to fit the gameplay balance anyway...
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+Nov 12 2003, 06:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Nov 12 2003, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, does it matter how the numbers look like? It just matters how the game is played, and at the moment umbra is already quite powerful, especially in an organized attack or defense. So if the problem is "fixed" the numbers will have to be tweaked again in order to fit the gameplay balance anyway... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No they wont, the average clanner thinks umbra sucks, and I've always been like "NO WAY". I've always thought it blocked 2/3's of the damage, but now I know better, I won't advocate the use of lerks anymore till 2.1.

    I'd tell the potential lerk to wait to go fade or something. Or gorge, because that helps more than POS umbra.
  • WarpZoneWarpZone Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6264Members
    edited November 2003
    Is it that each bullet has a 25% chance of missing, or every fourth bullets that strikes the alien is a miss? Because if it's the former, there's always the chance of a statistical fluke such as all bullets hitting or no bullets hitting.

    I think Umbra would be more predictable in-game (not to mention easier to test the effectiveness of) if each bullet did 25% less damage. (Or whatever the figure gets tweaked to in the next patch.)

    In the meantime, keep in mind that Umbra is not really meant to project the lerk. It's meant to protect the lerk's ALLIES.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--WarpZone+Nov 12 2003, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WarpZone @ Nov 12 2003, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In the meantime, keep in mind that Umbra is not really meant to project the lerk. It's meant to protect the lerk's ALLIES. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's meant to protect
  • Roger_DodgerRoger_Dodger Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14392Members
    Sweet nice work Rockst4r now devs have to check it.

    At least if its fixed umbra might be worthwhile, yeh at the moment it helps but if these values stayed in for the next version with the reworked hitboxes umbra would be very minimal.

    Do u reckon they'd fix umbra before 2.1 though?? Can anyone confirm from the 2.1 beta that umbra is bugged coz i am assuming rockst4r is using values from 2.01.

    - RD
  • ShazbotShazbot Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14328Members
    I think they should leave the umbra protect how much it does right now, but just increase the time it stays, as it is right now 3s(?) is too short. The energy cost is also ridiculous, you can't use it without adrenaline.
  • LichoLicho Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3858Members, NS1 Playtester
    In 1.04 it was 7/8 blocked and you were still able to kill lerk!

    Now it should be 2/3 and is 1/3, that's major bug that is affecting alien 2 hive play, yes aliens are probably going to win with 2 hives and enough res, but umbru should be major helper for 2 hive aliens and not just hard to use 25% defensive boost ..
  • SDJasonSDJason Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
    in 1.04 it was 3/4 blocked.... they lowered it to 2/3 which many people whine about... now we know why.. it was really lowered to 1/4....


    ~Jason
  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Members
    aliens seem to get alittle weaker with everyupdate......
    <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
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