Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
My short and stupid answer is "being different." And speaking of different, I think this could turn out to be a better thread if placed in a different section of the forums. <span style='color:orange'>*Phased*</span> from off-topic to Discussions.
The problem with a symbol for non-conformity is that a symbol would have to symbolize something that you can't or shouldn't be pigoen-hole (non-conformity). It'll be like saing "we've conformed non-conformity."
In my opinion, it's independent thought, that would most likely symbolize non-conformity. Conformity typically falls under an idea of falling in line for societal reasons rather than a intellectual or other practical reason.
If you work hard enough to become part of non-conformity, then you've actually conformed.
The only one thing true and unique to each person is our thought. That's all there is to it tbh, and if you wanted a simbol for being a non-conformist, you would need a simbol for yourself; after all it's the only thing unique to each person.
Everything else you hear about being a non-conformist - ****.
Non-conformity has nothing to do with fashion...no offense, it's obvious you guys are still in High school. This is a multiple choice society, choosing "None of the above" is just conforming to someone elses standards. There are no origional thinkers...Neitze was non-conformist, Trent Reznor is not.
IMO the whole concept is over-rated, especially considering those who try to be non conformist (try being the keyword here) and actively seek to be different from every one else, are just conforming to the opposite of the majority. Instead of just being themselves, they effectively pigeonhole themselves anyway. Just because you swim upstream instead of downstream with the other swimmers, doesnt mean you arent a swimmer.
My advice, dont worry about such a trivial thing as being "the same" or "different" from others. Just be yourself...trying to conform or not to conform is to changing for and because of everyone else, not for yourself. Self growth is fine, but the only motive should be a desire for personal experience and expansion, and not because of others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Non-conformity has nothing to do with fashion...no offense, it's obvious you guys are still in High school.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? All this time I was thinking non-comformity had to do with cheerleaders, jocks, and all that jazz.
...
Non-conformity is the concept of doing things for reasons other than because this is what others do. If it so happens you and your neighbor do the same thing, but both do so in the name of non-conformity, there is no contradiction. It isn't to distant yourself as far as possible from what other people do. It is the act of NOT conforming, conforming meaning basically "doing something because that's what other people do."
As far as a physical symbol goes, i'm not sure there is one <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regarding non-conformity, i'd say it's something you <b>are</b>, not something you <b>do</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The same can be said for "doing something because its not what other people do"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, there is a subtle differene between "not doing something because it is what other people do" and "doing something because its not what other people do."
The difference is Bill dressing in a clown-suit because he knows nobody else will wear a clownsuit or Bill wearing what he likes to wear ignoring the fashion trend.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Dec 1 2003, 01:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Dec 1 2003, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, there is a subtle differene between "not doing something because it is what other people do" and "doing something because its not what other people do." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *engage language nazi mode...
those sentances are the same, since only the 'not' moved. And since both have 'what other people do' following a 'because', they both imply the reason is to do with what other people think.
anyway, I think parasites original point was about appearances only compramising a small amount of conformity.
Well it makes it much easier to use examples of appearance rather than personality for instance.
In that case, you are saying the sentences "I am not going to the store, because I am sick" and "I am going to the store, because I am not sick" are the same things. They certainly aren't. Moving the not made quite a difference in this sentence.
Just because you put not in front of it or remove a note, doesn't necessarily make it completely opposite. Saying one is not cold doesn't imply that person is hot. It simply means he is not cold.
That's sort of my point too. If conformity is trying to conform, then non-conformity is not trying to conform (which doesn't necessarily imply you are trying to do anything, but simply NOT trying to conform).
If we're talking the nitty gritty semantics, Parasite is right. But I'd understand conformity as simply adhering to the unwritten rules of a certain, dominating social unit. Get a job, a hair cut and a wife. Then you conform with society at large. But if enough people start making their hair green, put safetypins in their lips and listen to Sex Pistols, well, then you got a socalled sub-culture with it's own rules for conformity. So there's no escaping it unless you turn into a hermit.
<!--QuoteBegin--Parasite+Dec 1 2003, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Parasite @ Dec 1 2003, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My point is that doing something "because" others do <i>not</i> do it is still conformity. Your still doing it because of other people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, now we are at the heart of where we disagree. I believe to be a non-conformist, you don't need to act according to how other people act. Like I said, it isn't acting the opposite. It is simply the act of NOT trying to conform.
I'm saying it is possible for two people to dress exactly alike and not conform to each other. If they deliberately did that, then yes, they are conforming. If it is coincidence, they can still be dressing the way they want to dress and not how they think others will dress for instance.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
(gotta love how most of us are answering this guy's origional question) but anyway, wading into this argument......
Conformity and non-conformity are not solid terms, they are words defined by the society that uses them, because they are used by that society to describe the aspects of the society. Non-conformity is not simply "not caring what other people think", that's not caring what other people think, that's a different thing altogether, because it is a more or less solidly defined term. A non-comformist is someone who is defined by society as being non-conformist, he may wear what everyone else is wearing, or think what everyone else is thinking, and do anything that would represent "confirmity" in the literal sense, but as soon as society marks a person as a "non-conformist" for whatever reason, the defintion of what a "non-conformist" is changes to meet the criterea set by that person.
The same is true for someone who is called a "conformist." Someone who tries their damndest to rebel against society is still a conformist if those who have already been labelled as "non-conformists" by society consider him to be a "conformist" then that is what he is, a conformist. There are several other terms that share an equally fluid and insubstantial definition. I myself know many people who are considered "punk", so the question of what is "punk" is something I have discussed many times, and it's the same kind of definition by society, but that's just one example.
So therefore we see that the words "conformist" and "non-conformist" have no substantial or long-lasting meaning. There are other terms one can use for the same affect that are much easier to define however. Someone who you would consiber a "non-conformist" may be "rebellious", "origional", "different", or "against social norms." These terms are much more specific, and don't carry the same weight to the ear, but when dealing with specifics and defining the language, they are much more preferable.
Whoa I didn't realise I had this much to say........ <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Dec 1 2003, 11:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Dec 1 2003, 11:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Parasite+Dec 1 2003, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Parasite @ Dec 1 2003, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My point is that doing something "because" others do <i>not</i> do it is still conformity. Your still doing it because of other people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, now we are at the heart of where we disagree. I believe to be a non-conformist, you don't need to act according to how other people act. Like I said, it isn't acting the opposite. It is simply the act of NOT trying to conform.
I'm saying it is possible for two people to dress exactly alike and not conform to each other. If they deliberately did that, then yes, they are conforming. If it is coincidence, they can still be dressing the way they want to dress and not how they think others will dress for instance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> not trying or trying not? Just because a person doesnt seek to conform to a set of standards doesnt mean they dont. Actively seeking to ignore or rebel against those rules and ideologies is what non-conformity is...its a form of social protest, a movement, not a dress code, not a state of mind. It's certianly not a personal opinion of what is or isnt "cool". Non-Conformity doesnt equal being different from the "in-crowd". The struggle high schoolers go through to find thier identity cant be equated with non-conformity. The whole concept of non-confromity is outdated and barely practiced scince the time of viet nam.
Besides, every sub culture is just a microcosm of its society, with rules and restrictions people of that sub culture are expected to adhere to. "Punk" has its own set of standards punks have to adhere to...and as such are just conforming to another set of rules.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin--That Annoying Kid+Dec 1 2003, 05:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (That Annoying Kid @ Dec 1 2003, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I belive the standard symbol of defiance aka non conformity is the raised clenched fist
oh red faction has a pickaxe.. wutev <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
whoever said these first, kudos, gents. spot on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-nonconformity shouldn't have any one symbolic icon<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-nonconformity is represented by independent thought<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only symbol of nonconformity i can think of would be a picture of a lot of people who look different as hell, none of them mainstream.
In my opinion the thought is all that matters. If they (whoever) can't change your thought then they haven't conformed you and therefore you haven't conformed.
By this definition I am a non-conformist simply because I dont care...but the fact is, I live my life well within the confines of what is acceptable behaviour for this society. To anyone who considers themselves non-conformist, I am a confromist because of that fact.
I cant speak for Hawkeye, but I think you may have just simplified his argument.
I see non-conformity as a social movement against a set of imposed standards.
Comments
That's because they don't have to prove anything to themselves.
(that is, if they have one; the Chinese Commies probably purged it from the language)
Are we just talking about physical symbols ?
The only one thing true and unique to each person is our thought. That's all there is to it tbh, and if you wanted a simbol for being a non-conformist, you would need a simbol for yourself; after all it's the only thing unique to each person.
Everything else you hear about being a non-conformist - ****.
This is a multiple choice society, choosing "None of the above" is just conforming to someone elses standards. There are no origional thinkers...Neitze was non-conformist, Trent Reznor is not.
IMO the whole concept is over-rated, especially considering those who try to be non conformist (try being the keyword here) and actively seek to be different from every one else, are just conforming to the opposite of the majority. Instead of just being themselves, they effectively pigeonhole themselves anyway. Just because you swim upstream instead of downstream with the other swimmers, doesnt mean you arent a swimmer.
My advice, dont worry about such a trivial thing as being "the same" or "different" from others. Just be yourself...trying to conform or not to conform is to changing for and because of everyone else, not for yourself. Self growth is fine, but the only motive should be a desire for personal experience and expansion, and not because of others.
As far as a "symbol", I think Hida said it best.
Really? All this time I was thinking non-comformity had to do with cheerleaders, jocks, and all that jazz.
...
Non-conformity is the concept of doing things for reasons other than because this is what others do. If it so happens you and your neighbor do the same thing, but both do so in the name of non-conformity, there is no contradiction. It isn't to distant yourself as far as possible from what other people do. It is the act of NOT conforming, conforming meaning basically "doing something because that's what other people do."
Regarding non-conformity, i'd say it's something you <b>are</b>, not something you <b>do</b>.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
No, there is a subtle differene between "not doing something because it is what other people do" and "doing something because its not what other people do."
The difference is Bill dressing in a clown-suit because he knows nobody else will wear a clownsuit or Bill wearing what he likes to wear ignoring the fashion trend.
*engage language nazi mode...
those sentances are the same, since only the 'not' moved.
And since both have 'what other people do' following a 'because', they both imply the reason is to do with what other people think.
anyway, I think parasites original point was about appearances only compramising a small amount of conformity.
In that case, you are saying the sentences "I am not going to the store, because I am sick" and "I am going to the store, because I am not sick" are the same things. They certainly aren't. Moving the not made quite a difference in this sentence.
Just because you put not in front of it or remove a note, doesn't necessarily make it completely opposite. Saying one is not cold doesn't imply that person is hot. It simply means he is not cold.
That's sort of my point too. If conformity is trying to conform, then non-conformity is not trying to conform (which doesn't necessarily imply you are trying to do anything, but simply NOT trying to conform).
it just happens to make the two sentances above mean the same thing.
unless my grasp of english is really slipping...
[/offtopic]
No, now we are at the heart of where we disagree. I believe to be a non-conformist, you don't need to act according to how other people act. Like I said, it isn't acting the opposite. It is simply the act of NOT trying to conform.
I'm saying it is possible for two people to dress exactly alike and not conform to each other. If they deliberately did that, then yes, they are conforming. If it is coincidence, they can still be dressing the way they want to dress and not how they think others will dress for instance.
Conformity and non-conformity are not solid terms, they are words defined by the society that uses them, because they are used by that society to describe the aspects of the society. Non-conformity is not simply "not caring what other people think", that's not caring what other people think, that's a different thing altogether, because it is a more or less solidly defined term. A non-comformist is someone who is defined by society as being non-conformist, he may wear what everyone else is wearing, or think what everyone else is thinking, and do anything that would represent "confirmity" in the literal sense, but as soon as society marks a person as a "non-conformist" for whatever reason, the defintion of what a "non-conformist" is changes to meet the criterea set by that person.
The same is true for someone who is called a "conformist." Someone who tries their damndest to rebel against society is still a conformist if those who have already been labelled as "non-conformists" by society consider him to be a "conformist" then that is what he is, a conformist. There are several other terms that share an equally fluid and insubstantial definition. I myself know many people who are considered "punk", so the question of what is "punk" is something I have discussed many times, and it's the same kind of definition by society, but that's just one example.
So therefore we see that the words "conformist" and "non-conformist" have no substantial or long-lasting meaning. There are other terms one can use for the same affect that are much easier to define however. Someone who you would consiber a "non-conformist" may be "rebellious", "origional", "different", or "against social norms." These terms are much more specific, and don't carry the same weight to the ear, but when dealing with specifics and defining the language, they are much more preferable.
Whoa I didn't realise I had this much to say........ <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
No, now we are at the heart of where we disagree. I believe to be a non-conformist, you don't need to act according to how other people act. Like I said, it isn't acting the opposite. It is simply the act of NOT trying to conform.
I'm saying it is possible for two people to dress exactly alike and not conform to each other. If they deliberately did that, then yes, they are conforming. If it is coincidence, they can still be dressing the way they want to dress and not how they think others will dress for instance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
not trying or trying not? Just because a person doesnt seek to conform to a set of standards doesnt mean they dont. Actively seeking to ignore or rebel against those rules and ideologies is what non-conformity is...its a form of social protest, a movement, not a dress code, not a state of mind. It's certianly not a personal opinion of what is or isnt "cool". Non-Conformity doesnt equal being different from the "in-crowd". The struggle high schoolers go through to find thier identity cant be equated with non-conformity. The whole concept of non-confromity is outdated and barely practiced scince the time of viet nam.
Besides, every sub culture is just a microcosm of its society, with rules and restrictions people of that sub culture are expected to adhere to. "Punk" has its own set of standards punks have to adhere to...and as such are just conforming to another set of rules.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
RED FACTION!~!!
oh red faction has a pickaxe.. wutev <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
whoever said these first, kudos, gents. spot on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-nonconformity shouldn't have any one symbolic icon<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-nonconformity is represented by independent thought<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only symbol of nonconformity i can think of would be a picture of a lot of people who look different as hell, none of them mainstream.
=]
I cant speak for Hawkeye, but I think you may have just simplified his argument.
I see non-conformity as a social movement against a set of imposed standards.