The Lable "rpg"
Deronok
Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14613Members
Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14613Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Since Gem didn't post it, I will.</div> Well we got into a huge discussion before Gem went to work on the term RPG on games. Today it's used for anything that has stats and hack and slash, with is pretty much true, anything based around stats is usually called an RPG. The thing is it lacks a key thing for it to be an RPG. 1) Role Playing: How often have you ever seen someone role play their char in an online game?
Role playing games are, imo, supposed to be about character development instead of slaying a few thousand monsters, and then pumping stats to become a demi-god.
Well the thing is, with this, most games can be concidered RPGs since most game have some sort of character development and a role you play. Like in Half-Life, you play the role of Gordon Freeman, fight your way through black mesa and "develop" by getting bigger and better guns, starting with a small crowbar to bash aliens with.
Any thoughts?
Role playing games are, imo, supposed to be about character development instead of slaying a few thousand monsters, and then pumping stats to become a demi-god.
Well the thing is, with this, most games can be concidered RPGs since most game have some sort of character development and a role you play. Like in Half-Life, you play the role of Gordon Freeman, fight your way through black mesa and "develop" by getting bigger and better guns, starting with a small crowbar to bash aliens with.
Any thoughts?
Comments
I'll post more later, when I can put it together in my mind.
after a bit of NWN too.
The same was done of The Specialists at one time. It was very nice. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, RPG = game that has stat-building or something related, and role-playing is something you can do in any game.
While those definitions may not be literally correct, it is what they mean now. The old implication that an RPG requires roleplaying is dead, just as there is no longer really an RPG genre. The games we call RPGs (like Final Fantasy, to name the obvious), really aren't RPGs any more than Deus Ex is. The problem is that the adventure/storytelling games need a new name, and always have, since RPG is hardly accurate.
The argument originally arose when Gem stated that Zelda (specifically A Link To The Past, but this applies just as well to any other of the series) was a statless RPG; a few others, including myself, begged to differ and described Zelda as an action-adventure.
Now, we should keep in mind that our current genre-labels are mostly relics of a time when the C64 was still high-tech. Since that time, we've not so much seen the invention of new genre descriptions, but an endless stream of subcategories - to the text-based adventure came the graphical adventure where your surrounding was drawn on the screen, came the action adventure where you did both solve puzzles and blast enemies to bits, came the survival horror game, and so on. We should thus keep in mind that any genre category is pretty much a crooked crutch redefined by each new game appearing under the special label.
According to this logic, a typical RPG is at first glance any kind of game that involves a player-controlled character whichs abilities are statistically recorded, and which can be changed or improved over time. One could now draw a limitless amount of sub-categories, such as hardcore RPGs, which're mostly based on Pen&Paper (or, more specifically D&D) rulesets and make a characters stats his/her pretty much <i>only</i> determination of success or failure, to hack&slash RPGs such as Diablo, to RPG-hybrids that range from Deus Ex to Mega Man: Network Transition.
This definition is however not satisfying once you have looked at the actual name behind the abbreviation 'RPG', because you are, strictly speaking, not playing a 'role' in many of the titles that fit the description. You aren't really 'playing' Mega Man while blasting through the levels, you are controlling him, an actor two-dimensional in any sense of the word. Replacing the character with, say, the image of a Terminator, would barely hinder you from enjoying the game.
At the same time, games not usually considered RPGs require you to act 'in character'. Take, for example, the 'stealth-shooters' of the Thief series. Here, Gem, <i>here</i> is a truly statless RPG. You don't simply control Gareth, you're forced to <i>become</i> a thief, thankful for every shadow or piece of carpet, afraid of the light and scared of any loud sound.
By these examples, I already pointed at what is in my opinion the definition of a RPG: Immersion.
I'd put the following definition forward:
Any game that's aiming to put the player into a situation in which he or she truly identifies with his or her character is a role playing game.
According to this definition, Planescape: Torment, the Thieves and System Shocks, or Fallouts would be RPG to me: In them, I, at least, took the role of a person in a story and made its actions become mine.
Why did I not include Zelda, Deus Ex, or Baldurs Gate?
I'd argue that one isn't truly taking the role of the main character in these games, one is 'merely' experiencing the game through his eyes.
When playing Zelda, Link is a seperate entity from myself; I laugh when I see him blush in Wind Waker. I watch <i>him</i> accomplish his goals; the fact that I am controlling him doesn't keep me from projecting sympathies to him.
Playing Deus Ex, J.C. is acting after his own agenda which is openly displayed in various cutscenes - he has, for example, dedicated political notions that don't have to agree with the players. He is a character of his own, thus, I'm not taking his role. I watch him slowly realizing about VersaLife and Bob Page and understand his anger at both, but I'm not necessarily sharing it.
And Baldurs Gate? It's certainly strange to state that the game series which brought RPGs back to life is not a RPG at all, but compare Baldurs Gate to Planescape: Planescape makes you ask yourself who you - <i>you</i>, the Nameless - really are. The Nameless is embedded in the gameworld: The player fills are clearly defined spot in the universe of Sigil and acts from it. Thus, I am being immersed by this world.
In Baldurs Gate, on the other hand, the player character appears to barely fill a vague white spot in the plot; his role is just too uncertain: Are you playing a male lawful good human paladin or a female chaotic evil dwarven thief? It is impossible for the developers to really 'fit' the plot around the character, s/he stays thus bland, and I have problems identifying with him/her because no details making the character seem 'real' are provided. When playing Baldurs Gate, I was actually usually more concerned for the rest of my party - Minsk and Boo, Aerie, Jaheira - than for my main character. Sure, I was playing a level 18 sorceror with a wyrmling familiar, but what did he eat for breakfast?
This is, then, my definition for adventures:
Games that provide you with a main character leading you through the story, usually by allowing you to experience it through his or her own eyes, are adventures.
Picking up on the initial example, Half Life seems to be much better fit for this category.
by my definition, an RPG is any game that draws you so far into the game that either:
a) Makes you wish you were the character, and so you act as if you were or
b) Makes you think you ARE the character, for at least a short while.
I went through this mad stage a while back where, on DOD, i used to pretend to be the Sniper from Saving Private Ryan. With all the bible quotes and stuff. Almost the entire right side of my keyboard was binded to bible quotes. There was much annoyance on my regular servers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I was hoping everyone from the discussion there would post here.
-In reply to Stickman.
That's how it was for me before I got into it, and it usually requires fast typing. My friend who RPs can do 200 WPM, and I know he's not lying because I'v seen him do it.
Imo There should be more RPGs based on the description Nem did, Infact I don't think theres really a single one these days that's Multi-player.
*Makes sure to look into getting Thief and Thief 2 soon.*
There was a game some time ago called Silver, to me, that was an RPG, the storyline was brilliant, immersive and replayable. While games like RTCW: Enemy Territories and NS:Combat have experience, they to me are not RPGs because they dont have particular storylines.
Silver was a good game...
NwN has servers made for roleplay.
RPG: <b>Role Playing</b> Game
Thus you actualy have controll over your char, what he/she does how they act, how they go through situations etc etc etc.
Thus, not an RPG:
FF Series, well any console 'rpg' (there is no RP in them, at all its a linear storyline with a few branches)
SystemShock (again linear, you have no REAL choices)
Thief (If I remember corectly, again a linear plot, you don't have the option to let x person live and have it effect stuff, you still go from lvl 1 to lvl 2 etc)
Zelda (it just aint Gem, sory <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> its an action/adventrue game flat out)
Infact I clasify most of these games as Adventure games (or Act/Adv if it is skill based combat)
Closer To RPGS:
DeusEx (again, basicaly linear, but it does have a big split, and you CAN go through it different ways, and they do effect things. You get to gun happy and the armsmaster gives you less ammo etc)
NWN (You can decide more about what your char is like, however it is even morel inear then DEx, there is no plot divergance, you HAVE to find the waterdavien creatures or else nothing HAPENS!)
Note: Many Games (like NWN) can be ussed for true RP, however it is rare (think about howmany people play HL, now howmany RP in Opera Servers?).
Even Closer:
MMORPGs:
You have a true choice about your Char. You can play however you feel. You can be a murdere (generaly) you can be a thief, you can be EVIL. There is generaly no linear plot, you are free to do mostly what you wan.
NOTE: Most MMORPGS Don't fit into this actualy, if you take a combination of them all you have a better look at one (if HackSign was real)
Real RPGS:
Chat based free form IRC games and what not are about it.
Now to deal with the fact that every one refers to all of these games as RPGs I have renamed most of them.
CRPG (computerRPG):
Stats, true character controll is nonexistant to OK.
Again, I am an elitest bast'd when it comes to RPG games (I have spent most of my life playing PnP games), so thus why I created the title CRPG (if I hadn't I would have had an anurism LONG ago <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
NOTE: It is possible I stolle CRPG from somewhere but I am rather sure I came up with it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I consider those "role playing games", insofar as that I am "role-playing" a character; in fact, the story that I develop around her is the whole point of the game, and my interaction with other characters is part of that development. The one I play on is entirely textbased and has NO stat-building whatsoever.
I think the idea of RPGs being Final Fantasy-esque games is pretty prevalent though, because even in the mu* community, we refer to console games as "RPGs" and specifically say Mu*, rp, or "paper RPG" for roleplay.
some are simply
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repeat
and others are practicaly rp chatrooms.
Almsot any multie player game can become an RP game (so long as it has chat functions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->). I was more talking about how most of them are/inteded to be used <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
RPG: <b>Role Playing</b> Game
Thus you actualy have controll over your char, what he/she does how they act, how they go through situations etc etc etc.
Thus, not an RPG:
FF Series, well any console 'rpg' (there is no RP in them, at all its a linear storyline with a few branches)
SystemShock (again linear, you have no REAL choices)
Thief (If I remember corectly, again a linear plot, you don't have the option to let x person live and have it effect stuff, you still go from lvl 1 to lvl 2 etc)
Zelda (it just aint Gem, sory <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> its an action/adventrue game flat out)
Infact I clasify most of these games as Adventure games (or Act/Adv if it is skill based combat)
Closer To RPGS:
DeusEx (again, basicaly linear, but it does have a big split, and you CAN go through it different ways, and they do effect things. You get to gun happy and the armsmaster gives you less ammo etc)
NWN (You can decide more about what your char is like, however it is even morel inear then DEx, there is no plot divergance, you HAVE to find the waterdavien creatures or else nothing HAPENS!)
Note: Many Games (like NWN) can be ussed for true RP, however it is rare (think about howmany people play HL, now howmany RP in Opera Servers?).
Even Closer:
MMORPGs:
You have a true choice about your Char. You can play however you feel. You can be a murdere (generaly) you can be a thief, you can be EVIL. There is generaly no linear plot, you are free to do mostly what you wan.
NOTE: Most MMORPGS Don't fit into this actualy, if you take a combination of them all you have a better look at one (if HackSign was real)
Real RPGS:
Chat based free form IRC games and what not are about it.
Now to deal with the fact that every one refers to all of these games as RPGs I have renamed most of them.
CRPG (computerRPG):
Stats, true character controll is nonexistant to OK.
Again, I am an elitest bast'd when it comes to RPG games (I have spent most of my life playing PnP games), so thus why I created the title CRPG (if I hadn't I would have had an anurism LONG ago <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
NOTE: It is possible I stolle CRPG from somewhere but I am rather sure I came up with it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to basicly agree with every thing there
I feel the term RPG is over used so much that any thing that has stats can be called an RPG
reputation status, choices, NPC reactions and opinions, etc..
S.T.A.L.K.E.R. !!!!
again, reputation and NPC reactions, more random choices...good or evil..
in the harder modes NPCs can "beat the game" (whatever that is, they still haven't told us!!) before you do <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
more good examples to come..
but here's my opinion. these days there's ROLE PLAYING GAME, and rpg.
role playing game = D&D, above-listed games..
rpg = rocket propelled grenade, final fantasies, anything really.
they're two different terms. nobody calls final fantasy 7 a "role playing game". it's an arpeegee.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><!--QuoteBegin--soldier+ black hawk down--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (soldier @ black hawk down)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ARPEEGEE!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--></span>
RPG: <b>Role Playing</b> Game
Thus you actualy have controll over your char, what he/she does how they act, how they go through situations etc etc etc.
Thus, not an RPG:
FF Series, well any console 'rpg' (there is no RP in them, at all its a linear storyline with a few branches)
SystemShock (again linear, you have no REAL choices)
Thief (If I remember corectly, again a linear plot, you don't have the option to let x person live and have it effect stuff, you still go from lvl 1 to lvl 2 etc)
Zelda (it just aint Gem, sory <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> its an action/adventrue game flat out)
Infact I clasify most of these games as Adventure games (or Act/Adv if it is skill based combat)
Closer To RPGS:
DeusEx (again, basicaly linear, but it does have a big split, and you CAN go through it different ways, and they do effect things. You get to gun happy and the armsmaster gives you less ammo etc)
NWN (You can decide more about what your char is like, however it is even morel inear then DEx, there is no plot divergance, you HAVE to find the waterdavien creatures or else nothing HAPENS!)
Note: Many Games (like NWN) can be ussed for true RP, however it is rare (think about howmany people play HL, now howmany RP in Opera Servers?).
Even Closer:
MMORPGs:
You have a true choice about your Char. You can play however you feel. You can be a murdere (generaly) you can be a thief, you can be EVIL. There is generaly no linear plot, you are free to do mostly what you wan.
NOTE: Most MMORPGS Don't fit into this actualy, if you take a combination of them all you have a better look at one (if HackSign was real)
Real RPGS:
Chat based free form IRC games and what not are about it.
Now to deal with the fact that every one refers to all of these games as RPGs I have renamed most of them.
CRPG (computerRPG):
Stats, true character controll is nonexistant to OK.
Again, I am an elitest bast'd when it comes to RPG games (I have spent most of my life playing PnP games), so thus why I created the title CRPG (if I hadn't I would have had an anurism LONG ago <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
NOTE: It is possible I stolle CRPG from somewhere but I am rather sure I came up with it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
just adding my 5 cents to this thread:
I, for one, completely disagree with Thansal (while agreeing on certain levels with Nem).
First off: I do not believe that games are excluded from the RPG genre simply because they, in certain aspects, may be linear. The first game that springs to my mind is System Shock. Yes, in certain ways this game is in fact quite linear. But at the same time I find that this linearity is caused by story which, in the end, is quite inevitable. Things come to pass because the player is nothing more than a peon in a bigger game.
Whereas Final Fantasy, another example where you could argue that the player is restricted by the inevitable, is not an RPG. Confused? This is where Nemesis Zero's part comes in. It's simple. While you do have some control over the player, it's obvious that you're not playing them. They're seperate characters with their own emotions, own agendas and own mental problems. So while you might choose how they actually fight their next battle, you can't change how
Much of it is simply to do how the games are designed, and how you perceive the main characters. In Planescape: Torment and Fallout you get the feeling that you're the player. Whereas the representation in BG is somewhat different. You're playing a character different to you. A character with his own personality, and his own beliefs. So while Baldurs Gate might be a game (even a great one might I add) set in a traditional roleplaying world, it's not truly a roleplaying game, the same way that the 2 previously mentioned games are.
I could make a list of what I consider in this genre, and what games I consider to be outside the same. But it wouldn't make sense.
I'll even go as far as to say that traditional PnP roleplaying (while it has been some year since I've last done any, I still have quite a few fond memories of it) can be under the same restrictions that we're seeing in a game such as System Shock. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's bad GM'ing if you let the players do whatever they want.
Finally, I'd just like to add that I don't consider mmo's to be roleplaying games. While they potentially could be, the current generation is based around leveling up. Which is not necessarily a roleplaying element.
You play the role of a driver in racing games, a gunner in First-Person Shooters, and likewise. One could argue aobut that however.