You need to realize that with the Consties AND the additional clan-vets, there is a much wider skill level/play style in the current playtesters group.
Im not a vet, but I agree that there is to much posting from non vets about balancing issues that don't exist (onos hp beeing too beefed up, this obviously makes sense in context to fixed hitboxes) never the less, to say that all non PTs have nothing to say because they haven't played the new version and experianced the imbalances themself is just ignorant. I dont have to playtest the game to do the math and figure out that with 900 HP and onos with carapace will take way too long to be healed by hives and DC's, it is just an obvious balancing issue that hasnt been adressed yet. the classic example is the devour/redemption onos from 2.0, this was an issue that quicky became obvious when pubs got there hands on the game, yet was discussed by non PT before the reliese. there is really nothing wrong with non PT's discussing balancing issues, as a PT you should just ignore, or correct the ones that do not really exist. Alot of us are no where near stupid, it shouldn't be that big a surprize that some of us have real, valuable things to say.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Dec 10 2003, 08:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Dec 10 2003, 08:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You need to realize that with the Consties AND the additional clan-vets, there is a much wider skill level/play style in the current playtesters group. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes.. which is why I referred only to the older vets in my first post.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Dec 9 2003, 02:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Dec 9 2003, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> FYI: We were told the same thing around 2.0 and a week after it's release and I don't think a single balance issue 'went away'. I believe every point raised was STILL legit after release and the week after, and is still an issue. In fact, it raised MORE issuse to whine about because we never knew how terrible the res system was until we played it. And that such a terrible flaw got through beta testing, let's just say, I don't have much faith in you guys.
Plus, it's just irritating that build after build, the marines get more and more hard counters that even a one-armed man with 2 fingers could use, while the aliens get more and more goofy, ****, limited things added. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, last I checked you were not a playtester. If you are, excuse me, but really, how can you judge something you've yet to play?
Aegeri, that is foolishness. How can you possibly expect any positive outcome from that line of thought? The Dev. team is not going to just change its entire outlook on the flip of a coin. Yes, some Non-PT/Vet./etc. players have valuable input, more than anyone would do the double take necessary to give them credit for, but that is not to say that the NS developers have the time to make every mindblowing change that might be suggested.
At the time of the post you used, no one expected the Onos - Devour&Redempt to be a horrible problem. When it was found out, it was realized and the problem was fixed with the 2.0x versions, in which an Onos drops the marine it was digesting upon redempting. Okay, perhaps the problem was there for the time that 2.0 spanned, but once the first 2.01 was out, it was gone. All that would have been solved had your poster's idea been recognized would be less of a need for the 2.01's.
I do not doubt that there will be problems with version 3.0, I would be amazed if not one single problem reared its ugly head. Once they do surface, then they can be found and dealt with. Using your advice would make it just that much faster a fix, with more reprecussions than is worth the result.
Well it looks like there's only two solutions then.
Solution 1 means that Flayra doesn't balance for pub play anymore, doesn't fix any exploits, and completely alienates the rest of the community outside his little group of friends and moneyflingers even more then it is now, and NS dies a slow, torturous death.
Since that most likely won't happen...
Solution 2 means that you shut up with the 'You haven't played it yet!' whines and either ignore the thread or read it, consider the problem, and bring it up to Flayra, because it's been proven time and time again that you don't need to play the game to find flaws with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the time of the post you used, no one expected the Onos - Devour&Redempt to be a horrible problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must thank another poster AGAIN for supporting my argument.
May I point you back to other threads that said the same thing as that RANDOM POSTER thread. If no one means some of the PT's of the time, you are correct. But many non PT's picked out the problem well before release. If so many non PT's were able to pick it before release, that is certainly a lot of no ones isn't it. Then again, if you READ MY POST, you would of seen that the fact these opinions are just being discarded as 'worthless' when they MAY have merit, IS MY ENTIRE BLOODY POINT.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All that would have been solved had your poster's idea been recognized would be less of a need for the 2.01's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh, thank you for supporting my argument (as has just been done before) and NOT reading my post. Please read, think and THEN reply.
<!--QuoteBegin--XeroSlayer+Dec 9 2003, 04:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XeroSlayer @ Dec 9 2003, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seriously, please do not post about 3.0 balance. It seems every day I come on here there is a forum <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then don't post what is changed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Plus, it's just irritating that build after build, the marines get more and more hard counters that even a one-armed man with 2 fingers could use, while the aliens get more and more goofy, ****, limited things added.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever heard of variety? That's exactly what marines lack.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Dec 10 2003, 10:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Dec 10 2003, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well it looks like there's only two solutions then.
Solution 1 means that Flayra doesn't balance for pub play anymore, doesn't fix any exploits, and completely alienates the rest of the community outside his little group of friends and moneyflingers even more then it is now, and NS dies a slow, torturous death.
Since that most likely won't happen...
Solution 2 means that you shut up with the 'You haven't played it yet!' whines and either ignore the thread or read it, consider the problem, and bring it up to Flayra, because it's been proven time and time again that you don't need to play the game to find flaws with it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You are so blatantly ignorant.
If anything, this game is NOT balanced around clan play -- you wouldn't know, after all, you've never actually PLAYED a clan game. Just how much scrim experience do you have to be able to say that clan games are balanced? They're not -- the game is hugely alien biased in organized matches. In pubs, this is mostly balanced out by the fact that aliens don't have any commander to oversee. Putting a bunch of clannies into a PT does not make it a clan game -- clans are more then 1337 skillz, it's the overall teamwork itself. There, I hope you're happy.
Now that's a misconception commonly placed into game development. It should be bug, feature, balance. It would be bug, balance, feature, but you can't balance the game until all the features are in place. No other development process would accept the above as being acceptable, so why should software?
Yes, but many new features introduce many bugs themselves. So it's more of a cycle of bugs - feature - bugs from feature - another feature ... - balance.
Seriosly though, I think xeros problem isn't with people bringing up a potential issue with something they see or don't see in the changelogs Rather his problem is with people who post with nothing intelligent to add, all they say is X is too powerful, or Y is dumb. You have to distinguish between the people who actually have thought-out suggestions or comments, and people who simply post meaningless dribble.
And yes, there is much variety in the skill level of the testers. There is a whole spectrum of skill ranging from godly (old vets) to "have you ever played this game before?".
And lastly, if you have a well thought out comment about something you see wrong or potentially wrong with the game, don't be afraid to post it. I think there are enough sensible people in the pt group that will respond to your ideas.
You all have wonderfully selective memories. The first poster's warning about making comments when you do not have all the information applies very appropriately to this thread, in particular:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At the time of the post you used, no one expected the Onos - Devour&Redempt to be a horrible problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Developers and Playtesters could not expect the grave reprecussions Devour/Redemption had in the hands of horrible players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may interest you to know i'm currently looking at few tester's forum posts discussing the issue, dated well before 2.0 release. Allow me to paste a few nuggets:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Us3r:</b> We had about 3 Onos running down tram tunnel on bast, devouring HA, and being redeemed, getting away with hundreds of marine res.
I think that maybe devour shouldn't work on HA, or marines should be spit out when the Onos redeems (which seems about right). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:edit: or if they do, make the devoured guy poop out? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Coil:</b> How about Onos can't redeem if they're digesting someone? Make it a calculated risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>STEAMEDHAM:</b> Yeah, the onos should be able to redeem but the marine should stay behind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of the above are pre-2.0 release. I'm also quite sure i recall an internal build where redeem was disabled whenever digesting. There is a distinction between a feature never making it to release, and the testers never having concieved of it. If every idea or feature ever suggested was immediately built into a game, the game would never reach completion. Some times you just have to get it out the door, and clearly the redeem change was considered minor enough (In comparison to other issues which you will never have seen since they were fixed pre-release) to be left to a later patch.
It is also worth pointing out that so many different features and changes are suggested on these forums on a daily basis, that it is very likely just about every concievable change that could be made to NS has already been suggested by someone somewhere. It's amusing to watch the <i>S&I effect</i> seen everytime Flayra makes a new feature change such as hand grenades, and a thousand S&I posters beam with delight that 'their' suggestion made it in. They were so clever to have thought of the idea of <b>handgrenades</b>, such an ingenious suggestion, they can be sure Flay is thankful for the inspiration they personally imbued him with. Or not?
Then considering the sheer number of suggestions and balance discussions that pop up in this forum constantly, doesn't it seem a little odd that we've only got 1 example of constructive comments from someone who hasn't played the game? :)
I know why there are so few examples, because i remember the threads that hit the forums shortly before and after the release of 2.0. And they were 95% pure drivel. So just to illustrate a point:
That enough? Amazingly easy to find threads from that time period where people should just keep their mouths shut. While it is possible to make objective critisism to a VERY limited degree without having played the game, you can be just about certain that any issue you can see before having played the game will also be seen by the large number of people who have played the game. In any case, the 0.1% of real, objective comments that aren't brought up by the testers (I can't actually think of any examples) will simply get washed away in the sea of pointless spam if people insist on discussing things they have little or no experience of.
I know if this was a creation/evolution discussion, Aegeri wouldn't want me arguing for evolution when i have very little scientific knowledge of it :)
Going back to the first post. I don't believe that a simple balance tweak such as changing the hp/armour value of the onos would have to wait until 3.0 is released because the focus is soley on bug fixes.
I don't for one minute believe that all sorts of issues haven't been discussed in the closed forum - what regular forum goers suffer from is not being included in this discussion.
Can't people appreciate that this is a FORUM!! For whatever reason if you aren't included as a playtester it does not take away their right to discuss or rant about percieved balance or whatever else they want to post.
If their post or thread is full of such meaningless drivel then ignore it and move on or get it locked/deleted - and post your "better informed Mr Playtester" views in the constellation forum.
If we can't talk about new ideas (or ideas discussed x number of time prior) or balance issues that doesn't leave alot else to discuss. by splitting the forum up you invite "less informed" comment, that may or may not hit some of the balance or play issue on the head.
In summary > by splitting the forum you invite conflict. More tolerance is required all round.
Mainly for two reasons: I can't tell who is flaming the hell out of who, since nobody has avatars (I'm way too lazy to look at names), and the sillyness of the argument.
The first guy has to get over the holier-then-thou attitude before the beta is released, otherwise he'll have problems on real servers.
Anyone else who flamed him should probably get over their holier-then-thou's holier-then-thou attidute before they play the new version, lest something else bad happens. Like us being totally right about things (*coughxenofocuscough*), and having to eat their words.
Previously with just a select few Vets/PTs playing, it didn't get a broad enough spectrum of players.. both good and bad (Clanners and pubbers are horrible terms. I'm a pubber, but I damn well own, so nyah), so it was a tad imbalanced.
With CMs and newbie vets thrown into the mix (I have had to explain lerkflight and focus SO MANY GOD DAMNED TIMES. But I'm patient each time.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), a greater cross-section of players is represented, and I'll KNOW that you will agree when it's released that it will, without any doubt, be the single greatest NS release ever.
<!--QuoteBegin--comb@t+Dec 11 2003, 02:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comb@t @ Dec 11 2003, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can't people appreciate that this is a FORUM!! For whatever reason if you aren't included as a playtester it does not take away their right to discuss or rant about percieved balance or whatever else they want to post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not a public avenue. You have no rights to discuss anything that the owners wish you not to discuss.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (comb@t @ Dec 11 2003, 02:04 PM) Can't people appreciate that this is a FORUM!! For whatever reason if you aren't included as a playtester it does not take away their right to discuss or rant about percieved balance or whatever else they want to post.
This is not a public avenue. You have no rights to discuss anything that the owners wish you not to discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
last time I checked neither you nor XeroSlayer owns this forum, thus, unless I am corrected by an admin as to the context of my beheivior, I have just as much rights as anyone else here in exercizing my freedom of speech, provided i remain within the confines outlined by the forum terms of agreement. For all intencive pourposes, pubbers are just as free to discuss whatever they choose on these forums as PT's so your argument is really invalid.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Dec 11 2003, 05:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Dec 11 2003, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--comb@t+Dec 11 2003, 02:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comb@t @ Dec 11 2003, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can't people appreciate that this is a FORUM!! For whatever reason if you aren't included as a playtester it does not take away their right to discuss or rant about percieved balance or whatever else they want to post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not a public avenue. You have no rights to discuss anything that the owners wish you not to discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed this is a privately owned forum > thus if the owners or their executive don't like a post or thread they can delete/edit or lock. They haven't done this as yet - so what was your point?
I haven't seen the owners step in to make their view known..
EDIT: I'm not going to reply in this thread any longer.
I think the reason for the fustration is that there is not one or two threads on "How unbalanced 3.0" is. There are LOTS of them. Many good threads are getting pushed into the abyss because of these 3.0 discussions. Even if one thread was made and used it would help the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--Swiftspear+Dec 12 2003, 03:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Dec 12 2003, 03:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (comb@t @ Dec 11 2003, 02:04 PM) Can't people appreciate that this is a FORUM!! For whatever reason if you aren't included as a playtester it does not take away their right to discuss or rant about percieved balance or whatever else they want to post.
This is not a public avenue. You have no rights to discuss anything that the owners wish you not to discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
last time I checked neither you nor XeroSlayer owns this forum, thus, unless I am corrected by an admin as to the context of my beheivior, I have just as much rights as anyone else here in exercizing my freedom of speech, provided i remain within the confines outlined by the forum terms of agreement. For all intencive pourposes, pubbers are just as free to discuss whatever they choose on these forums as PT's so your argument is really invalid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> FYI
Your "Freedom of Speech" is not related to your ability to say what you want here or anywhere else. It is a protection against the Government making laws that would restrict you from speaking out against it.
DXOThe one... the only...Join Date: 2003-01-28Member: 12894Members, NS1 Playtester
ok i thought this thread would die out quickly but since it obviously wont i'll make it die right now..
3.0 will be done with Flayra gets it done, i dont want people whining and complaing about anything until they play it and if they play it and dont like it dont whine about it then either.. you all know how to give proper feedback and if given in the right way its more then welcomed.. if it comes in threads like this with whining and complaining it wont be so welcome
Comments
Yes.. which is why I referred only to the older vets in my first post.
Plus, it's just irritating that build after build, the marines get more and more hard counters that even a one-armed man with 2 fingers could use, while the aliens get more and more goofy, ****, limited things added. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, last I checked you were not a playtester. If you are, excuse me, but really, how can you judge something you've yet to play?
At the time of the post you used, no one expected the Onos - Devour&Redempt to be a horrible problem. When it was found out, it was realized and the problem was fixed with the 2.0x versions, in which an Onos drops the marine it was digesting upon redempting. Okay, perhaps the problem was there for the time that 2.0 spanned, but once the first 2.01 was out, it was gone. All that would have been solved had your poster's idea been recognized would be less of a need for the 2.01's.
I do not doubt that there will be problems with version 3.0, I would be amazed if not one single problem reared its ugly head. Once they do surface, then they can be found and dealt with. Using your advice would make it just that much faster a fix, with more reprecussions than is worth the result.
Solution 1 means that Flayra doesn't balance for pub play anymore, doesn't fix any exploits, and completely alienates the rest of the community outside his little group of friends and moneyflingers even more then it is now, and NS dies a slow, torturous death.
Since that most likely won't happen...
Solution 2 means that you shut up with the 'You haven't played it yet!' whines and either ignore the thread or read it, consider the problem, and bring it up to Flayra, because it's been proven time and time again that you don't need to play the game to find flaws with it.
I must thank another poster AGAIN for supporting my argument.
May I point you back to other threads that said the same thing as that RANDOM POSTER thread. If no one means some of the PT's of the time, you are correct. But many non PT's picked out the problem well before release. If so many non PT's were able to pick it before release, that is certainly a lot of no ones isn't it. Then again, if you READ MY POST, you would of seen that the fact these opinions are just being discarded as 'worthless' when they MAY have merit, IS MY ENTIRE BLOODY POINT.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All that would have been solved had your poster's idea been recognized would be less of a need for the 2.01's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh, thank you for supporting my argument (as has just been done before) and NOT reading my post. Please read, think and THEN reply.
Then don't post what is changed.
Ever heard of variety? That's exactly what marines lack.
Features first, bug fixing second, balance last.
Solution 1 means that Flayra doesn't balance for pub play anymore, doesn't fix any exploits, and completely alienates the rest of the community outside his little group of friends and moneyflingers even more then it is now, and NS dies a slow, torturous death.
Since that most likely won't happen...
Solution 2 means that you shut up with the 'You haven't played it yet!' whines and either ignore the thread or read it, consider the problem, and bring it up to Flayra, because it's been proven time and time again that you don't need to play the game to find flaws with it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are so blatantly ignorant.
If anything, this game is NOT balanced around clan play -- you wouldn't know, after all, you've never actually PLAYED a clan game. Just how much scrim experience do you have to be able to say that clan games are balanced? They're not -- the game is hugely alien biased in organized matches. In pubs, this is mostly balanced out by the fact that aliens don't have any commander to oversee. Putting a bunch of clannies into a PT does not make it a clan game -- clans are more then 1337 skillz, it's the overall teamwork itself. There, I hope you're happy.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that's a misconception commonly placed into game development. It should be bug, feature, balance. It would be bug, balance, feature, but you can't balance the game until all the features are in place. No other development process would accept the above as being acceptable, so why should software?
Seriosly though, I think xeros problem isn't with people bringing up a potential issue with something they see or don't see in the changelogs Rather his problem is with people who post with nothing intelligent to add, all they say is X is too powerful, or Y is dumb. You have to distinguish between the people who actually have thought-out suggestions or comments, and people who simply post meaningless dribble.
And yes, there is much variety in the skill level of the testers. There is a whole spectrum of skill ranging from godly (old vets) to "have you ever played this game before?".
And lastly, if you have a well thought out comment about something you see wrong or potentially wrong with the game, don't be afraid to post it. I think there are enough sensible people in the pt group that will respond to your ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
At the time of the post you used, no one expected the Onos - Devour&Redempt to be a horrible problem.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The Developers and Playtesters could not expect the grave reprecussions Devour/Redemption had in the hands of horrible players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may interest you to know i'm currently looking at few tester's forum posts discussing the issue, dated well before 2.0 release. Allow me to paste a few nuggets:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>Us3r:</b>
We had about 3 Onos running down tram tunnel on bast, devouring HA, and being redeemed, getting away with hundreds of marine res.
I think that maybe devour shouldn't work on HA, or marines should be spit out when the Onos redeems (which seems about right).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>Boobs:</b>
Onos shouldnt redeem
:edit: or if they do, make the devoured guy poop out?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>Coil:</b>
How about Onos can't redeem if they're digesting someone? Make it a calculated risk.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>STEAMEDHAM:</b>
Yeah, the onos should be able to redeem but the marine should stay behind.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of the above are pre-2.0 release. I'm also quite sure i recall an internal build where redeem was disabled whenever digesting. There is a distinction between a feature never making it to release, and the testers never having concieved of it. If every idea or feature ever suggested was immediately built into a game, the game would never reach completion. Some times you just have to get it out the door, and clearly the redeem change was considered minor enough (In comparison to other issues which you will never have seen since they were fixed pre-release) to be left to a later patch.
It is also worth pointing out that so many different features and changes are suggested on these forums on a daily basis, that it is very likely just about every concievable change that could be made to NS has already been suggested by someone somewhere. It's amusing to watch the <i>S&I effect</i> seen everytime Flayra makes a new feature change such as hand grenades, and a thousand S&I posters beam with delight that 'their' suggestion made it in. They were so clever to have thought of the idea of <b>handgrenades</b>, such an ingenious suggestion, they can be sure Flay is thankful for the inspiration they personally imbued him with. Or not?
Then considering the sheer number of suggestions and balance discussions that pop up in this forum constantly, doesn't it seem a little odd that we've only got 1 example of constructive comments from someone who hasn't played the game? :)
I know why there are so few examples, because i remember the threads that hit the forums shortly before and after the release of 2.0. And they were 95% pure drivel. So just to illustrate a point:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=32649' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=32649</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=38815' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=38815</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=40105' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=40105</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=40127' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=40127</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=35499' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=35499</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=34743' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=34743</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=34393' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=34393</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=38500' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=38500</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=33892' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=33892</a>
That enough? Amazingly easy to find threads from that time period where people should just keep their mouths shut. While it is possible to make objective critisism to a VERY limited degree without having played the game, you can be just about certain that any issue you can see before having played the game will also be seen by the large number of people who have played the game. In any case, the 0.1% of real, objective comments that aren't brought up by the testers (I can't actually think of any examples) will simply get washed away in the sea of pointless spam if people insist on discussing things they have little or no experience of.
I know if this was a creation/evolution discussion, Aegeri wouldn't want me arguing for evolution when i have very little scientific knowledge of it :)
I don't for one minute believe that all sorts of issues haven't been discussed in the closed forum - what regular forum goers suffer from is not being included in this discussion.
Can't people appreciate that this is a FORUM!! For whatever reason if you aren't included as a playtester it does not take away their right to discuss or rant about percieved balance or whatever else they want to post.
If their post or thread is full of such meaningless drivel then ignore it and move on or get it locked/deleted - and post your "better informed Mr Playtester" views in the constellation forum.
If we can't talk about new ideas (or ideas discussed x number of time prior) or balance issues that doesn't leave alot else to discuss. by splitting the forum up you invite "less informed" comment, that may or may not hit some of the balance or play issue on the head.
In summary > by splitting the forum you invite conflict. More tolerance is required all round.
Mainly for two reasons: I can't tell who is flaming the hell out of who, since nobody has avatars (I'm way too lazy to look at names), and the sillyness of the argument.
The first guy has to get over the holier-then-thou attitude before the beta is released, otherwise he'll have problems on real servers.
Anyone else who flamed him should probably get over their holier-then-thou's holier-then-thou attidute before they play the new version, lest something else bad happens. Like us being totally right about things (*coughxenofocuscough*), and having to eat their words.
Previously with just a select few Vets/PTs playing, it didn't get a broad enough spectrum of players.. both good and bad (Clanners and pubbers are horrible terms. I'm a pubber, but I damn well own, so nyah), so it was a tad imbalanced.
With CMs and newbie vets thrown into the mix (I have had to explain lerkflight and focus SO MANY GOD DAMNED TIMES. But I'm patient each time.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), a greater cross-section of players is represented, and I'll KNOW that you will agree when it's released that it will, without any doubt, be the single greatest NS release ever.
This is not a public avenue. You have no rights to discuss anything that the owners wish you not to discuss.
Can't people appreciate that this is a FORUM!! For whatever reason if you aren't included as a playtester it does not take away their right to discuss or rant about percieved balance or whatever else they want to post.
This is not a public avenue. You have no rights to discuss anything that the owners wish you not to discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
last time I checked neither you nor XeroSlayer owns this forum, thus, unless I am corrected by an admin as to the context of my beheivior, I have just as much rights as anyone else here in exercizing my freedom of speech, provided i remain within the confines outlined by the forum terms of agreement. For all intencive pourposes, pubbers are just as free to discuss whatever they choose on these forums as PT's so your argument is really invalid.
This is not a public avenue. You have no rights to discuss anything that the owners wish you not to discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed this is a privately owned forum > thus if the owners or their executive don't like a post or thread they can delete/edit or lock. They haven't done this as yet - so what was your point?
I haven't seen the owners step in to make their view known..
EDIT: I'm not going to reply in this thread any longer.
for that you get a cookie
and actuly if combat maps were bigger 3.0b would be totaly ballenced, c' will help with a slight skulk nerf
Can't people appreciate that this is a FORUM!! For whatever reason if you aren't included as a playtester it does not take away their right to discuss or rant about percieved balance or whatever else they want to post.
This is not a public avenue. You have no rights to discuss anything that the owners wish you not to discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
last time I checked neither you nor XeroSlayer owns this forum, thus, unless I am corrected by an admin as to the context of my beheivior, I have just as much rights as anyone else here in exercizing my freedom of speech, provided i remain within the confines outlined by the forum terms of agreement. For all intencive pourposes, pubbers are just as free to discuss whatever they choose on these forums as PT's so your argument is really invalid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI
Your "Freedom of Speech" is not related to your ability to say what you want here or anywhere else. It is a protection against the Government making laws that would restrict you from speaking out against it.
i read the first line of the first five posts and then realized it sucked
i'm surprised no one else caught on as quickly
3.0 will be done with Flayra gets it done, i dont want people whining and complaing about anything until they play it and if they play it and dont like it dont whine about it then either.. you all know how to give proper feedback and if given in the right way its more then welcomed.. if it comes in threads like this with whining and complaining it wont be so welcome
<span style='color:red'>**Locked**</span>