Are you saying it did not work in my other examples? There are 1.5 billion free Pakistanis, Indians, and Bangladeshis right now because of non-violent protest. There is an end to legalised racism in the US. There are all sorts of examples. Even in China, there are far more rights and more world attention there after the protests than there ever was before that. Do you disagree?
As for the rude Asteroid - non-violent protest only works when you're not suicide bombing children's buses. Get <i>your</i> facts straight, to use your irritating wording.
To steer this topic back on tracks: what's going to happen next? Will the bombings go away? Since Israel now made the first move of good-will, it's up to Palestinians. They seem to have three optiond now:
-Keep on bombing. Worst move they can do. Israel is not going to give them more land if the bombings go on. They would most likely push their troops back. -Deman more land and own nation through non-violent protests. Could work pretty well, since Israel seems to be backing down for some reason. Then again, it might be viewed as ungrateful act: "We give and give and they want more!?" -Be happy with what they got. My guess: hell freezes over before this.
" non-violent protest only works when you're not suicide bombing children's buses. Get your facts straight, to use your irritating wording."
You said somewhere in your post that you thought that it was moronic that the palestinians were not doing peaceful civil disobedience. Thats why i said get your facts straight because in fact they are doing civil disobedience. Not respecting curfews, sending their children to school despite interdictions, protesting the wall, working their land and more.
If i got you , you are saying that since some palestinians choose to target israeli civilians, the rest of the palestinians should not attempt to do non-violent protest because it only works when "they" are not suicide bombing people. You are implying in the quote that the palestinians who do non-violent protests are the same people as those who are blowing themselves up to kill innocent civilians.
So why are the palestinians moronic to not have attempted civil disobedience (you say) if it is guaranteed failure (in your view) in advance?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in China, there are far more rights and more world attention there after the protests than there ever was before that. Do you disagree? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. On this particular point I do. While I agree that peaceful protests would an ideal alternative to violence, I have a difficult time regarding the changes in China resulted from the Tianmen Square Massacre.
The changes in China are to make in more economically powerful, and a neccessary change that they forsaw. With the return of Hong Kong, the westernization of certain provinces became more viable and showed the advantages in using the billion person industrial workforce to increase economic growth and financial stability.
The changes were due to money. Not human rights.
And about the peaceful protests in the U.S. and India: India in the past few years have developed and now have nuclear weapons. Ironic for a country founded by a peace movement.
And the civil rights established by Martin Luther King Jr. have helped white women more than any minority currently in the U.S. The jails themselves have a hugely disproportionate population in the prison system, showing that while legalized racism is illegal, it still exists, and is most prevalent in our legal system. Again, ironic.
And don't forget, Martin Luther King Jr. was killed for his beliefs.
The purpose of war is not to kill, but to push and place political ideas and agendas.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fat Man/ Little Coat+Dec 28 2003, 06:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fat Man/ Little Coat @ Dec 28 2003, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The jails themselves have a hugely disproportionate population in the prison system, showing that while legalized racism is illegal, it still exists, and is most prevalent in our legal system. Again, ironic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It almost sounds like you think that all those black people in jail are there because the white people are racist and have them unjustly imprisoned.
In Australia, we have the same complaining from the Aboriginal community. Somehow, us arresting them for being drunk and disorderly in public, attacking one another and stealing other peoples things makes us racist now. I dont hate the Aboriginals, but they are in jail because they have done the wrong thing. I expect/hope that the American justice system works better than you claim.
Let's put it this way. Comedian John Roy said once:
"You know who you should be the most afraid of in prison? The white guy. Because you know he's guilty."
I wish I had the numbers, but for the amount of people in the population, the ratio of white vs blacks in prison is way off what makes statistical sense. Along with DNA testing, hundreds, yes hundreds, of people (mostly black) have been let off of death row alone. Some serving decades for a crime they didn't commit.
Again, I don't have exact numbers, but I come from Illinois. A state that has recently suspended the death penalty because (according to the former govenor) it is flawed and doesn't work as it was intended. Of course he did it before a during a questionable period in his adminstration, but it was done in light of four people who had been released from death row, shown to be innocent due to DNA evidence.
Ask most American lawyers (during my third year in College I stayed on a floor with all law students) and they'll concur that the system is flawed, but its the best that we have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in China, there are far more rights and more world attention there after the protests than there ever was before that. Do you disagree? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehhhh, so-so. I'd argue that the reforms in China were the result of the capitalist ideas forwarded and put into effect by Deng Xiaping, coupled with the influx of foriegn investment and capital into the Special Economic Zones.
However, and this is important, what the Tiananmen Square massacre did was make the Chinese government look very bad in the eyes of the world. The same way the British massacres of resisting Indians during the colonial periods under Ghandi's leadership made the British government look very bad. Image is a crucial factor in resistance movements, and whilst many people around the world might side with the Palestinians, it's pretty hard when buses full of children are being blown up.
If the Palestinians did adopt a non-violent protest system, they might very well gain much larger successes than what they have experianced so far. Israel would be seem as very much the "bad guy" if they continued to bulldoze Palestinian houses and send armed forces in Palestinian cities. But it is a very hard thing to "turn the other cheek" and not use violence.
Neither side in this whole mess is innocent. The fact is that right now it doesn't matter who started it; the cycle of violence just keeps feeding off the previous attacks by both sides. If Israel does pull back, I still believe that the attacks will slow down, or cease for a short period. And perhaps just a small amount of time is what is needed the most.
Ryo summed up my thoughts better than I could have. What he said. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since Monsieur evil has the guts to say that palestinians are moronic not to have attempted civil disobedience when in fact they have been, and kill my post correcting him, i see that there is no use in discussing politics in a forum where the moderator will shut you down if he disagrees with your views.
What about your attitude evil? standing on your pedestal preaching to the palestinians that they are morons not to use non-violence when they ARE using non-violent protest.
You cant expect respect if you arent respectful yourself.
Ill stick to technical discussion about NS from now on...
<!--QuoteBegin--AsterOids+Dec 28 2003, 10:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AsterOids @ Dec 28 2003, 10:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...i see that there is no use in discussing politics in a forum where the moderator will shut you down if he disagrees with your views. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree with Monse all the time and yet we get along just fine. Now what do you think you did to deserve the edit? " standing on your pedestal preaching to the palestinians that they are morons" perhaps isn't the right form of approach. Or putting words in other peoples mouths. If you had the same attitude in the former post you made, that Monse edited, I see why he did it. I know Monse can be a real bullhead sometimes but be open to others opinions and you'll survive in the Discussions forum.
All in all: don't let the door hit you on the way out. Welcome back when you want to discuss rationally. We have a great <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=43638' target='_blank'>FAQ</a>, instructions, for discussing. I suggest you read it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fat Man/ Little Coat+Dec 28 2003, 09:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fat Man/ Little Coat @ Dec 28 2003, 09:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ask most American lawyers (during my third year in College I stayed on a floor with all law students) and they'll concur that the system is flawed, but its the best that we have. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All judicial systems are flawed, and while I don't want to derail the topic, I don't see what you're saying. Like Marine (who is Australian) in NZ we see the exact same situation, where we have more Maori and Pacific Island people in Jail than we do white people. I don't exactly know why that is, but considering that they are a minority here it certainly is worrying. I don't think we have overly biased or racist laws here, or even much of a history of it. Perhaps America does bear many of its former laws still that serve to opress or deny rights to Blacks in court, I don't know, but our proportions are caused more to social things than the actual law system.
Monse
I doubt that we're going to see non violent protests soon because, as has already been pointed out they've been doing it for a number of years without getting any attention. Maybe they need better PR to get what they do everyday against the Israelis on TV or something.
In any event I doubt we're going to see the end of this conflict. They have given back territory (large chunks often) back to the palestinians, their Arab neighbours etc on numerous occasions. They have then either had to tolerate further attacks, or get reinvaded again by the people they gave territory back to. I can hardly blambe them for not being overly happy and wanting to segregate their populations given how much they hate each other. It is like Northern Ireland in some respects, we came to an agreement, but we're still seperate. You cannot walk down the Shankle road wearing bright green for example (that would just be INSANE).
This conflict will inevitably end with either the destruction of Israel or the Palestinians.
A related article: <a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/3358797.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/3358797.stm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Israel has announced a $60m plan to build hundreds of new homes for settlers on the Golan Heights.</b>
Agriculture Minister Yisrael Katz says the population will rise by 50% over three years to strengthen Israel's grip on the land seized from Syria in 1967.
Syria has reacted angrily, saying sovereignty should be resolved by international law, not military power.
Recently, Syrian President Bashar al-Asad has called for renewed talks over return of the Golan.
"The aim is to send an unequivocal message: the Golan is an integral part of Israel," Mr Katz told Israeli public radio.
Correspondents called the move a slap in the face to President Assad, whose attempt to restart negotiations comes four years after peace talks broke down.
Damascus "on one hand announces that it is interested in peace, and on the other hand openly supports Palestinian terror," Mr Katz said, in comments published by the Yediot Ahronot daily.
"The goal is for al-Assad to see from the windows of his home the Israeli Golan thriving and flourishing."
There are currently 31 settlements in the territory with about 10,500 inhabitants.
<b>'Deluded'</b>
Damascus - which wants a total Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territory - has reacted angrily to the announcement.
"Israel is deluded that it can achieve something by relying on power and occupation," said deputy Foreign Minister Isa Daweesh.
He said that conflicts "are not resolved through power; they should be resolved under international law".
Syria has denied Israeli charges that it supports terrorism, saying Palestinian militant groups had only information offices in Damascus and even those had been shut down.
The Heights were seized from Syria during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war and were annexed by Israel in 1981.
Israeli newspaper reports say the government intends to build nine new settlements, based on tourism and farming.
The Golan Heights is a grassy plateau overlooking north-eastern Israel and south-east Syria.
It has important water resources and provides Israel with a third of its water needs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, are they simply changing the location of the settlements?
Well aren't the Golan Heights land seized from Syria? In that case, it should have little to do with the current Palestinian crisis. Syria can complain all it wants about the Golan Heights, but they lost those in a war with Israel. They belong to Israel now and Damascus is "deluded" to think that Israel cannot "achieve something by relying on power and occupation". The Golan Heights is an extremely strategic location... Israel should not give them up.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Dec 28 2003, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 28 2003, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AsterOids+Dec 28 2003, 10:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AsterOids @ Dec 28 2003, 10:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...i see that there is no use in discussing politics in a forum where the moderator will shut you down if he disagrees with your views. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree with Monse all the time and yet we get along just fine. Now what do you think you did to deserve the edit? " standing on your pedestal preaching to the palestinians that they are morons" perhaps isn't the right form of approach. Or putting words in other peoples mouths. If you had the same attitude in the former post you made, that Monse edited, I see why he did it. I know Monse can be a real bullhead sometimes but be open to others opinions and you'll survive in the Discussions forum.
All in all: don't let the door hit you on the way out. Welcome back when you want to discuss rationally. We have a great <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=43638' target='_blank'>FAQ</a>, instructions, for discussing. I suggest you read it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dread, this is the nicest Christmas present I got this year. Cheers. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd be interested in seeing where I wrote that all Palestinians are morons. I admit to calling palestinian leadership morons though, and don't rescind my statement in any way. There has never been widespread, organized, large-scale palestinian non-violent protest in the way that there was in America, India, South Africa, etc. If there had been, we'd see a much different international climate and a lot more support for the palestinian cause than we do now with the worldwide perception that 'well, the israelis are far too heavy-handed, but they <i>are</i> watching their children blown apart by suicide bombers' that you see now.
As for an end to legalised racism in the US, that's a side-topic for discussion. Feel free to start another one and not bring this one O/T. The original point I made that non-violent protest put an end to legalised racism is still true, and is rather inarguable - I challenge you to find a law that specifically discriminates based on race in the US. I certainly do not challenge the thought that there is still plenty of institutionalised, subjective, and personal racism however.
First of all, it is true that i got an attitude, and usually, for the better. I will try to repost this as cool-headed as i can. I will take some of your quotes, and explain why i think they are wrong.
"why did the palestinians never have the idea of using peaceful civil disobedience against the Israelis"
You werent saying that they midly or weakly tried peaceful disobedience, you said that they NEVER had the idea, so i was responding to that particular quote when i was saying to get your facts straight, because, again, they have been trying it. AFter reading your other posts, i see that maybe you were saying that they didnt attempt it on a massive scale. Well i was supposed to go to israel to document what the IDF is doing there with a camera, but when i read in the news that they were starting to shoot and kill international non-violent activists there, it kind of discouraged me to do it. Kill one, terrorize a thousand, ever heard of that one?
I cannot blame palestinians who decided to choose armed struggle when non-violent activists and getting shot and killed, i wont ask of them to turn the other cheek. BUT, i will NEVER, EVER, excuse, condone and cheer on people whotake the battle to defensless civilians , wether the **** are israelis or palestinians. I think that much we can agree on...
"The infitada was a complete failure and a moronic idea."
Thats where i misread you, and my bad for that. You arent saying that the palestinians are morons to not have attempted civil disobedience, i think that you are saying that attempting civil disobedience was a moronic idea. Because, intifada means "uprising" and can mean both peaceful and armed resistance to oppression, the armed part sometimes being extremely uncaring and inhuman by blowing themselves up to kill civilians, a desperate or fundamentalist act.
"There has never been widespread, organized, large-scale palestinian non-violent protest in the way that there was in America, India, South Africa, etc. If there had been, we'd see a much different international climate and a lot more support for the palestinian cause than we do now with the worldwide perception that 'well, the israelis are far too heavy-handed, but they are watching their children blown apart by suicide bombers' that you see now."
Ok now were getting closer to agreeing with each other, because yes, it hasnt been attempted on a large scale, in my opinion directly proportional to the violence and state terror they have been subjected to. but still, what you are saying still makes my stomach churn, as hard as i am trying not to get emotional on this. You are saying that the
israelis are watching their children being blown apart, a sad and true thing. But what about the palestinians, arent THEY watching their children shot in the head by soldiers, etc? Why dont you talk about those children, dont they count? I have seen loads and loads of footage of tanks and APCs firing at kids throwing rocks at tanks. I have seen footage of kids being shot at with no provocation whatsoever. Yes some of the kids are throwing rocks at tanks which are in their village, does that warrant death by extra-judicial execution? The palestinian children deserve to live as much as the israeli children...
What difference does it make to lose your child to a suicide bomber or an overhead stream of missiles directed at a refugee camp full of civilians? Does it ease the parents pain to know "ah well, my child died of a sniper bullet to the head, at least he was not blown apart by a bomb"
And now, the israeli army is even shooting israelis protesting the "security" wall, which hopefully will spark a fresh row of discussion in Israel about the methods used to destroy any kinds of protest against the IDFs action in the occupied territories, violent or not.
I think this time you wont nuke my post, and we can still discuss this with a certain calm hehe.
If you think not, well i have no choice but to stick to technical blabla about NS on the other
threads, but i still wish to talk here and i will try to keep my calm <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Helicopter Gunships, Merkava Tanks, and IMI Galils vs. Rocks, Suicide Bombers, and AK-47s
The hatred between these two countries is self-perpetuating. The Palestinians killed by Israeli soldiers serve as martyrs for the rock-throwers and unarmed protesters who are gunned down by Israelis. The sad thing is, this situation could probably be resolved if Palestine had a strong leader with the will to make peace instead of supporting terrorism with the ultimate goal of reclaiming all of the Israeli land. Ariel Sharon's military kills Palestinians every month but only strengthens their hatred towards the Isreali people - but they are not the only ones to blame; the young Palestinians have been raised to hate the Israelis, and when they go get themselves shot they become martyrs. The thing is, the suicide bombers and terrorists are preventing Palestine from reaching a peaceful resolution of this conflict with Israel but the country's leaders seem content to sit back and let this happen. Their whims aren't very different from the terrorists'.
Personally, I think the world would be in much better shape if the state of Israel had been relocated to a more suitable location, like Greenland or something, where they wouldn't be encroaching on land of very devout followers of a religion that currently harbors a strong animosity towards the "Zionists."
Comments
As for the rude Asteroid - non-violent protest only works when you're not suicide bombing children's buses. Get <i>your</i> facts straight, to use your irritating wording.
-Keep on bombing. Worst move they can do. Israel is not going to give them more land if the bombings go on. They would most likely push their troops back.
-Deman more land and own nation through non-violent protests. Could work pretty well, since Israel seems to be backing down for some reason. Then again, it might be viewed as ungrateful act: "We give and give and they want more!?"
-Be happy with what they got. My guess: hell freezes over before this.
Me goes to ZzZ-land. Nighty all.
You said somewhere in your post that you thought that it was moronic that the palestinians were not doing peaceful civil disobedience. Thats why i said get your facts straight because in fact they are doing civil disobedience. Not respecting curfews, sending their children to school despite interdictions, protesting the wall, working their land and more.
If i got you , you are saying that since some palestinians choose to target israeli civilians, the rest of the palestinians should not attempt to do non-violent protest because it only works when "they" are not suicide bombing people. You are implying in the quote that the palestinians who do non-violent protests are the same people as those who are blowing themselves up to kill innocent civilians.
So why are the palestinians moronic to not have attempted civil disobedience (you say) if it is guaranteed failure (in your view) in advance?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. On this particular point I do. While I agree that peaceful protests would an ideal alternative to violence, I have a difficult time regarding the changes in China resulted from the Tianmen Square Massacre.
The changes in China are to make in more economically powerful, and a neccessary change that they forsaw. With the return of Hong Kong, the westernization of certain provinces became more viable and showed the advantages in using the billion person industrial workforce to increase economic growth and financial stability.
The changes were due to money. Not human rights.
And about the peaceful protests in the U.S. and India: India in the past few years have developed and now have nuclear weapons. Ironic for a country founded by a peace movement.
And the civil rights established by Martin Luther King Jr. have helped white women more than any minority currently in the U.S. The jails themselves have a hugely disproportionate population in the prison system, showing that while legalized racism is illegal, it still exists, and is most prevalent in our legal system. Again, ironic.
And don't forget, Martin Luther King Jr. was killed for his beliefs.
The purpose of war is not to kill, but to push and place political ideas and agendas.
It almost sounds like you think that all those black people in jail are there because the white people are racist and have them unjustly imprisoned.
In Australia, we have the same complaining from the Aboriginal community. Somehow, us arresting them for being drunk and disorderly in public, attacking one another and stealing other peoples things makes us racist now. I dont hate the Aboriginals, but they are in jail because they have done the wrong thing. I expect/hope that the American justice system works better than you claim.
"You know who you should be the most afraid of in prison? The white guy. Because you know he's guilty."
I wish I had the numbers, but for the amount of people in the population, the ratio of white vs blacks in prison is way off what makes statistical sense. Along with DNA testing, hundreds, yes hundreds, of people (mostly black) have been let off of death row alone. Some serving decades for a crime they didn't commit.
Again, I don't have exact numbers, but I come from Illinois. A state that has recently suspended the death penalty because (according to the former govenor) it is flawed and doesn't work as it was intended. Of course he did it before a during a questionable period in his adminstration, but it was done in light of four people who had been released from death row, shown to be innocent due to DNA evidence.
Ask most American lawyers (during my third year in College I stayed on a floor with all law students) and they'll concur that the system is flawed, but its the best that we have.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehhhh, so-so. I'd argue that the reforms in China were the result of the capitalist ideas forwarded and put into effect by Deng Xiaping, coupled with the influx of foriegn investment and capital into the Special Economic Zones.
However, and this is important, what the Tiananmen Square massacre did was make the Chinese government look very bad in the eyes of the world. The same way the British massacres of resisting Indians during the colonial periods under Ghandi's leadership made the British government look very bad. Image is a crucial factor in resistance movements, and whilst many people around the world might side with the Palestinians, it's pretty hard when buses full of children are being blown up.
If the Palestinians did adopt a non-violent protest system, they might very well gain much larger successes than what they have experianced so far. Israel would be seem as very much the "bad guy" if they continued to bulldoze Palestinian houses and send armed forces in Palestinian cities. But it is a very hard thing to "turn the other cheek" and not use violence.
Neither side in this whole mess is innocent. The fact is that right now it doesn't matter who started it; the cycle of violence just keeps feeding off the previous attacks by both sides. If Israel does pull back, I still believe that the attacks will slow down, or cease for a short period. And perhaps just a small amount of time is what is needed the most.
What about your attitude evil? standing on your pedestal preaching to the palestinians that they are morons not to use non-violence when they ARE using non-violent protest.
You cant expect respect if you arent respectful yourself.
Ill stick to technical discussion about NS from now on...
I disagree with Monse all the time and yet we get along just fine. Now what do you think you did to deserve the edit? " standing on your pedestal preaching to the palestinians that they are morons" perhaps isn't the right form of approach. Or putting words in other peoples mouths. If you had the same attitude in the former post you made, that Monse edited, I see why he did it. I know Monse can be a real bullhead sometimes but be open to others opinions and you'll survive in the Discussions forum.
All in all: don't let the door hit you on the way out. Welcome back when you want to discuss rationally. We have a great <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=43638' target='_blank'>FAQ</a>, instructions, for discussing. I suggest you read it.
All judicial systems are flawed, and while I don't want to derail the topic, I don't see what you're saying. Like Marine (who is Australian) in NZ we see the exact same situation, where we have more Maori and Pacific Island people in Jail than we do white people. I don't exactly know why that is, but considering that they are a minority here it certainly is worrying. I don't think we have overly biased or racist laws here, or even much of a history of it. Perhaps America does bear many of its former laws still that serve to opress or deny rights to Blacks in court, I don't know, but our proportions are caused more to social things than the actual law system.
Monse
I doubt that we're going to see non violent protests soon because, as has already been pointed out they've been doing it for a number of years without getting any attention. Maybe they need better PR to get what they do everyday against the Israelis on TV or something.
In any event I doubt we're going to see the end of this conflict. They have given back territory (large chunks often) back to the palestinians, their Arab neighbours etc on numerous occasions. They have then either had to tolerate further attacks, or get reinvaded again by the people they gave territory back to. I can hardly blambe them for not being overly happy and wanting to segregate their populations given how much they hate each other. It is like Northern Ireland in some respects, we came to an agreement, but we're still seperate. You cannot walk down the Shankle road wearing bright green for example (that would just be INSANE).
This conflict will inevitably end with either the destruction of Israel or the Palestinians.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Israel has announced a $60m plan to build hundreds of new homes for settlers on the Golan Heights.</b>
Agriculture Minister Yisrael Katz says the population will rise by 50% over three years to strengthen Israel's grip on the land seized from Syria in 1967.
Syria has reacted angrily, saying sovereignty should be resolved by international law, not military power.
Recently, Syrian President Bashar al-Asad has called for renewed talks over return of the Golan.
"The aim is to send an unequivocal message: the Golan is an integral part of Israel," Mr Katz told Israeli public radio.
Correspondents called the move a slap in the face to President Assad, whose attempt to restart negotiations comes four years after peace talks broke down.
Damascus "on one hand announces that it is interested in peace, and on the other hand openly supports Palestinian terror," Mr Katz said, in comments published by the Yediot Ahronot daily.
"The goal is for al-Assad to see from the windows of his home the Israeli Golan thriving and flourishing."
There are currently 31 settlements in the territory with about 10,500 inhabitants.
<b>'Deluded'</b>
Damascus - which wants a total Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territory - has reacted angrily to the announcement.
"Israel is deluded that it can achieve something by relying on power and occupation," said deputy Foreign Minister Isa Daweesh.
He said that conflicts "are not resolved through power; they should be resolved under international law".
Syria has denied Israeli charges that it supports terrorism, saying Palestinian militant groups had only information offices in Damascus and even those had been shut down.
The Heights were seized from Syria during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war and were annexed by Israel in 1981.
Israeli newspaper reports say the government intends to build nine new settlements, based on tourism and farming.
The Golan Heights is a grassy plateau overlooking north-eastern Israel and south-east Syria.
It has important water resources and provides Israel with a third of its water needs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, are they simply changing the location of the settlements?
I disagree with Monse all the time and yet we get along just fine. Now what do you think you did to deserve the edit? " standing on your pedestal preaching to the palestinians that they are morons" perhaps isn't the right form of approach. Or putting words in other peoples mouths. If you had the same attitude in the former post you made, that Monse edited, I see why he did it. I know Monse can be a real bullhead sometimes but be open to others opinions and you'll survive in the Discussions forum.
All in all: don't let the door hit you on the way out. Welcome back when you want to discuss rationally. We have a great <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=43638' target='_blank'>FAQ</a>, instructions, for discussing. I suggest you read it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dread, this is the nicest Christmas present I got this year. Cheers. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd be interested in seeing where I wrote that all Palestinians are morons. I admit to calling palestinian leadership morons though, and don't rescind my statement in any way. There has never been widespread, organized, large-scale palestinian non-violent protest in the way that there was in America, India, South Africa, etc. If there had been, we'd see a much different international climate and a lot more support for the palestinian cause than we do now with the worldwide perception that 'well, the israelis are far too heavy-handed, but they <i>are</i> watching their children blown apart by suicide bombers' that you see now.
As for an end to legalised racism in the US, that's a side-topic for discussion. Feel free to start another one and not bring this one O/T. The original point I made that non-violent protest put an end to legalised racism is still true, and is rather inarguable - I challenge you to find a law that specifically discriminates based on race in the US. I certainly do not challenge the thought that there is still plenty of institutionalised, subjective, and personal racism however.
this as cool-headed as i can. I will take some of your quotes, and explain why i think they are
wrong.
"why did the palestinians never have the idea of using peaceful civil disobedience against the
Israelis"
You werent saying that they midly or weakly tried peaceful disobedience, you said that they NEVER
had the idea, so i was responding to that particular quote when i was saying to get your facts
straight, because, again, they have been trying it. AFter reading your other posts, i see that maybe
you were saying that they didnt attempt it on a massive scale. Well i was supposed to go to israel
to document what the IDF is doing there with a camera, but when i read in the news that they were
starting to shoot and kill international non-violent activists there, it kind of discouraged me to
do it. Kill one, terrorize a thousand, ever heard of that one?
I cannot blame palestinians who decided to choose armed struggle when non-violent activists and getting shot and killed, i wont ask of them to turn the other cheek. BUT, i will NEVER, EVER, excuse, condone and cheer on people whotake the battle to defensless civilians , wether the **** are israelis or palestinians. I think that much we can agree on...
"The infitada was a complete failure and a moronic idea."
Thats where i misread you, and my bad for that. You arent saying that the palestinians are morons to
not have attempted civil disobedience, i think that you are saying that attempting civil
disobedience was a moronic idea. Because, intifada means "uprising" and can mean both peaceful and
armed resistance to oppression, the armed part sometimes being extremely uncaring and inhuman by
blowing themselves up to kill civilians, a desperate or fundamentalist act.
"There has never been widespread, organized, large-scale palestinian non-violent protest in the way
that there was in America, India, South Africa, etc. If there had been, we'd see a much different
international climate and a lot more support for the palestinian cause than we do now with the
worldwide perception that 'well, the israelis are far too heavy-handed, but they are watching their
children blown apart by suicide bombers' that you see now."
Ok now were getting closer to agreeing with each other, because yes, it hasnt been attempted on a large scale, in my opinion directly proportional to the violence and state terror they have been subjected to. but still, what you are saying still makes my stomach churn, as hard as i am trying not to get emotional on this. You are saying that the
israelis are watching their children being blown apart, a sad and true thing. But what about the
palestinians, arent THEY watching their children shot in the head by soldiers, etc? Why dont you talk about those children, dont they count? I have seen loads and loads of footage of tanks and APCs firing at kids throwing rocks at tanks. I have seen footage of kids being shot at with no provocation whatsoever. Yes some of the kids are throwing rocks at tanks which are in their village, does that warrant death by extra-judicial execution? The palestinian children deserve to live as much as the israeli children...
What difference does it make to lose your child to a suicide bomber or an overhead stream of
missiles directed at a refugee camp full of civilians? Does it ease the parents pain to know "ah
well, my child died of a sniper bullet to the head, at least he was not blown apart by a bomb"
And now, the israeli army is even shooting israelis protesting the "security" wall, which hopefully
will spark a fresh row of discussion in Israel about the methods used to destroy any kinds of
protest against the IDFs action in the occupied territories, violent or not.
I think this time you wont nuke my post, and we can still discuss this with a certain calm hehe.
If you think not, well i have no choice but to stick to technical blabla about NS on the other
threads, but i still wish to talk here and i will try to keep my calm <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The hatred between these two countries is self-perpetuating. The Palestinians killed by Israeli soldiers serve as martyrs for the rock-throwers and unarmed protesters who are gunned down by Israelis. The sad thing is, this situation could probably be resolved if Palestine had a strong leader with the will to make peace instead of supporting terrorism with the ultimate goal of reclaiming all of the Israeli land. Ariel Sharon's military kills Palestinians every month but only strengthens their hatred towards the Isreali people - but they are not the only ones to blame; the young Palestinians have been raised to hate the Israelis, and when they go get themselves shot they become martyrs. The thing is, the suicide bombers and terrorists are preventing Palestine from reaching a peaceful resolution of this conflict with Israel but the country's leaders seem content to sit back and let this happen. Their whims aren't very different from the terrorists'.
Personally, I think the world would be in much better shape if the state of Israel had been relocated to a more suitable location, like Greenland or something, where they wouldn't be encroaching on land of very devout followers of a religion that currently harbors a strong animosity towards the "Zionists."