Something Needs To Be Done...
greyfox5
Join Date: 2002-02-14 Member: 217Members
Join Date: 2002-02-14 Member: 217Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Politeness thread #2</div> Ive been watching this forum for quite some time now, and havent made a post in a while. Some people in this forum are becoming increasingly unconstructive, and very unhelpful. This attitude needs to stop <i>now</i>. The ultimate bane of a modeler or concept artist is people who dont respect his or her hard work. I have recently seen a drop in modelers in various communities, FA, DOD, TS, and many others, because some people just cant respect the work they have put time and effort into to make <i>thier </i>creation. This, I feel, is why I need to make this post.
Politeness: Marked by or showing consideration for others, tact, and observance of accepted social usage. Polite, mannerly, civil, courteous, genteel
These adjectives mean mindful of, conforming to, or marked by good manners. Polite and mannerly imply consideration for others and the adherence to conventional social standards of good behavior: “It costs nothing to be polite”
This I feel is what we have a lack of, also a lack of civil behaivor.
Civil: Neather polite, nor rude. If you cant be polite, at least be civil.
<u>Ways to be polite, and encourage politeness.</u>
1. If you dont like the model/sprite made, dont say anything at all.
2. If you dont like the model/sprite made, but think you would like it if such and such was changed, politely suggest the changing of such and such.
NOT: Change this
THE CORRECT WAY: I think this would be pretty cool if you change (X), but, you dont have to.
3. If you like the model/sprite, by all means, say you do, congratulate the author on his/her good work.
4. If you like the model/sprite made, and you find a mistake, politely point it out to the author, and try and find links to help him/her out.
NOT: Hey I found this (X) problem, fix it.
The CORRECT WAY: Hey, I like your model, but there is (X) error in it. I think it would be even better if you could correct it, here are some links refering how to fix it if you dont know how to.
5. Remeber, this model/sprite is the <i>authors</i>, not yours. He or she spent time to do the work, you spent 30 seconds or less to look at it, and decide if you want it or not. And since it is the authors model, not yours. <b>A person has no right to demand changes in a model that is not his/hers, only to suggest them. </b>
6. Dont beg for release dates. It puts pressure on the author to make the croud pleased, and this can lead to hurried, errored work. The <i>author</i> will decide when to release when he or she sees it fit, not you.
7. Realism Fanatics. Heck, Im one for realistic gun models, but I can stand the unusual types, even the ones that might sling the scope far back into your cranium, or explode in your hands if you fire it if they were made in real life. Remember, this is a <i>video game </i>, not real life. And if the author wants to make a pistol with a scope, and without a scope mount, he or she can make the pistol with a scope, without a scope mount, the way he or she wants it. (Sorry sheena <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
8. If the author decides to state that the model made is realistic, and you find a error that makes it nonrealistic, dont explode all over them.
NOT: I found this (x) error, it makes the model totally unrealistic, change it.
THE CORRECT WAY: Hey, I found this (X) error..*thats not on real gun/looks unrealistic/missing parts/made up parts/*. Provide the author with pictures of the real gun, and point out what the error is.
9. If the model/type does not suit your tastes. Dont post at all. It suites the <i>authors</i> taste, not yours, and it might suit someone elses.
NOT: This model/sprite is not my type.
THE CORRECT WAY: (no post made)
These rules apply to dealing with new modelers also. Do not say thier model sucks, or is wrong, or is horrible. That can drive them off forever. Provide them with help, and experianced modelers should try and provide the new modelers with help.
I hope this helps.
Politeness: Marked by or showing consideration for others, tact, and observance of accepted social usage. Polite, mannerly, civil, courteous, genteel
These adjectives mean mindful of, conforming to, or marked by good manners. Polite and mannerly imply consideration for others and the adherence to conventional social standards of good behavior: “It costs nothing to be polite”
This I feel is what we have a lack of, also a lack of civil behaivor.
Civil: Neather polite, nor rude. If you cant be polite, at least be civil.
<u>Ways to be polite, and encourage politeness.</u>
1. If you dont like the model/sprite made, dont say anything at all.
2. If you dont like the model/sprite made, but think you would like it if such and such was changed, politely suggest the changing of such and such.
NOT: Change this
THE CORRECT WAY: I think this would be pretty cool if you change (X), but, you dont have to.
3. If you like the model/sprite, by all means, say you do, congratulate the author on his/her good work.
4. If you like the model/sprite made, and you find a mistake, politely point it out to the author, and try and find links to help him/her out.
NOT: Hey I found this (X) problem, fix it.
The CORRECT WAY: Hey, I like your model, but there is (X) error in it. I think it would be even better if you could correct it, here are some links refering how to fix it if you dont know how to.
5. Remeber, this model/sprite is the <i>authors</i>, not yours. He or she spent time to do the work, you spent 30 seconds or less to look at it, and decide if you want it or not. And since it is the authors model, not yours. <b>A person has no right to demand changes in a model that is not his/hers, only to suggest them. </b>
6. Dont beg for release dates. It puts pressure on the author to make the croud pleased, and this can lead to hurried, errored work. The <i>author</i> will decide when to release when he or she sees it fit, not you.
7. Realism Fanatics. Heck, Im one for realistic gun models, but I can stand the unusual types, even the ones that might sling the scope far back into your cranium, or explode in your hands if you fire it if they were made in real life. Remember, this is a <i>video game </i>, not real life. And if the author wants to make a pistol with a scope, and without a scope mount, he or she can make the pistol with a scope, without a scope mount, the way he or she wants it. (Sorry sheena <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
8. If the author decides to state that the model made is realistic, and you find a error that makes it nonrealistic, dont explode all over them.
NOT: I found this (x) error, it makes the model totally unrealistic, change it.
THE CORRECT WAY: Hey, I found this (X) error..*thats not on real gun/looks unrealistic/missing parts/made up parts/*. Provide the author with pictures of the real gun, and point out what the error is.
9. If the model/type does not suit your tastes. Dont post at all. It suites the <i>authors</i> taste, not yours, and it might suit someone elses.
NOT: This model/sprite is not my type.
THE CORRECT WAY: (no post made)
These rules apply to dealing with new modelers also. Do not say thier model sucks, or is wrong, or is horrible. That can drive them off forever. Provide them with help, and experianced modelers should try and provide the new modelers with help.
I hope this helps.
Comments
Not in a way that it would be hurting ppls feelings or anything
Saying that you don't like a model or a creation is everybodys right and most of the time it holds a truth and can be really constructive
And that part of realism I see as a attack to me .. take it easy man <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
this place is one of the finest and most peacefull forums i'm on ... seriously
P.S. Just saying what I think, don't take this personal
/EDIT: you should remove number 2, 3, 4 and 9 since they all mean the same and according to number 1, you can't post when you don't like something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That topic made me completely lost my trust with the NS Modelling Community. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ie: instead of saying the sight dosnt really fit the model but still nicely done.
its: The sights G4Y lose it..
Im not even a modeler but i still think modelers, concept artists, sprite artists, skinners etc need more
support and gratitude
ppl need to remeber they dont get paid for the work they do..
apoloiges if i offended any1
Ie: instead of saying the sight dosnt really fit the model but still nicely done.
its: The sights G4Y lose it..
Im not even a modeler but i still think modelers, concept artists, sprite artists, skinners etc need more
support and gratitude
ppl need to remeber they dont get paid for the work they do..
apoloiges if i offended any1 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i can relate
well i haven't been around here as long as you guys, guess you're right at some point <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just accept it.
Just accept it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
but jamil... your very rude yourself, playin it ignorant wont make it go away
imo <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just accept it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but jamil... your very rude yourself, playin it ignorant wont make it go away <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. But, to change one thing in what GreyFox said, don't just say nothing. You NEED to say something. But be constructive-
ie: To be honest, I don't like the model much, but maybe others will. Keep trying!
And while that sounds corny, try and stay to that rhythem.
Stay corny? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That topic made me completely lost my trust with the NS Modelling Community. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey, i actually tried to convert one g36c... i begged obst&gemuese and dillinja and they were really helpful... but i just couldnt finish it. after failing 2 times (1st time wrong method, 2nd time sloppy work), milkshape expired during my 3rd try <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
still got it, if anyone wants to finish it (possible youll have to redo everything due to my crappy bone assignment)
dont know about those rules of behaviour... this forum is really chilling, the last thing where people shouldve behaved better was that locked thread where some jumped on dillinja because of not-so-proper crediting <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Personnaly i tend to "zone out" when i see bad posts.
After 7 years, you get used to it...
And i was part of the CS-skins.net forum community... one of the NASTIEST bunch of people around. If your name wasn't "-x-" or "wannabe" or "lonewolf" or some of the most popular guys, you'd get almost FLAMED for simply making a model not look as good as theirs.
i made i Desert camo skin for the Awp and i might as well stuck a sign on it saying OMG ITS FLAMABLE
It got tore to peices and it wasnt even a bad skin
i got called a Awp loving pixie ....
and never played Cs again...
//:Edit and that thing about dijilla made me sick :/ i mean y didnt some1 just bring it to his attention
instead of going OMG Thief ..children can be so cruel
ignore me...
i made i Desert camo skin for the Awp and i might as well stuck a sign on it saying OMG ITS FLAMABLE
It got tore to peices and it wasnt even a bad skin
i got called a Awp loving pixie ....
and never played Cs again...
//:Edit and that thing about dijilla made me sick :/ i mean y didnt some1 just bring it to his attention
instead of going OMG Thief ..children can be so cruel
ignore me... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i made a point on pming him to tell him how much i personally appreciated his work... especially after all the morons flaming...
a definatre attitude fix needed from some people.
i mean dillinja has been helpful.. polite.. helped the community.. and cos he slipped up once.. you all leap on him? yet im sure if it was the other way round.. ' its unfair.. im being picked on.. boo bloody hoo'
Personnaly i tend to "zone out" when i see bad posts.
After 7 years, you get used to it...
And i was part of the CS-skins.net forum community... one of the NASTIEST bunch of people around. If your name wasn't "-x-" or "wannabe" or "lonewolf" or some of the most popular guys, you'd get almost FLAMED for simply making a model not look as good as theirs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's just not right. Just because some people are better then them. Kinda like the poor sportsmanship.
i made i Desert camo skin for the Awp and i might as well stuck a sign on it saying OMG ITS FLAMABLE
It got tore to peices and it wasnt even a bad skin
i got called a Awp loving pixie ....
and never played Cs again...
//:Edit and that thing about dijilla made me sick :/ i mean y didnt some1 just bring it to his attention
instead of going OMG Thief ..children can be so cruel
ignore me... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i made a point on pming him to tell him how much i personally appreciated his work... especially after all the morons flaming...
a definatre attitude fix needed from some people.
i mean dillinja has been helpful.. polite.. helped the community.. and cos he slipped up once.. you all leap on him? yet im sure if it was the other way round.. ' its unfair.. im being picked on.. boo bloody hoo' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flammed? All he had to do was credit. And i did try to contact him drake but he blocked me on aim and ircq. So i tried twice to contact him yet he was ignorant and the rule says WILL BE MADE PUBLIC!! Ok somepeople need to read the rule themselves.
The indiscriminate selfishness is what made me leave this place the first time. Though I may hesitate to leave again, I will leave nonetheless.
"Honest" criticism, as the original author of this thread intended, should be equated with <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>POLITE</span> criticism. As he said in words that some people have obviously not seen or chose to ignore, it's one thing to say, "I'm sorry, but there is something I see in your work that does not satisfy me. Perhaps you might prefer to do something this or that different way? This is, of course, simply my own opinion." and quite an other still to say "J00 suxorz! Go fuxors j00r m0m, nub."
One way accepts that this very well may be someone's very first attempt at doing what it was they did [perhaps even without the benefit of a computer that can run the $20,000 piece of software you probably ripped off for free because you're so God damned 1337] and they very well could turn out to be the next Lonewolf with practice and that not even Lonewolf's first skin/mesh/model ever was as good as his most recent.
The other's just ignorant and arrogant, completely ignoring any good the person may do in the future.
To sum up: the world does not end at the tips of your noses, people.
Your parents and friends and older kids at school may have abused the living crap out of you all your life and you may think you've turned out to be pretty damned nifty because of it, but that does not give you the right to kick people thinking it'll make them any better than they are in your eyes.
And no, I do not believe that these forums are completely free of this attitude, though it may be lessened from when I had originally left [I haven't been reading hardly as much as I used to of these threads]. Nor are these forums the only ones on which this needs to be said. But we're saying it right here. Right now. You can read it and live with it, because it is <b>OUR</b> opinion, which we have as much right to have as you do to yours, or you can turn around and take your own advice by stuffing it.
In closing, I'd like to point out very firmly that if you feel in any way targetted and/or threatened by what has been said in this thread, then it is extremely likely that you have done what we have you should not. By defending yourself, you are admitting to have done that now needs defending. By telling us to shut up, you are telling your own selves to shut up just as fervently. You may feel it your right to pummel anyone you feel is inferior to your own grand and masterful self, but we feel it is <b>OUR</b> right to expect the same kind of fairness we offer to those who need it.
i made i Desert camo skin for the Awp and i might as well stuck a sign on it saying OMG ITS FLAMABLE
It got tore to peices and it wasnt even a bad skin
i got called a Awp loving pixie ....
and never played Cs again...
//:Edit and that thing about dijilla made me sick :/ i mean y didnt some1 just bring it to his attention
instead of going OMG Thief ..children can be so cruel
ignore me... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i made a point on pming him to tell him how much i personally appreciated his work... especially after all the morons flaming...
a definatre attitude fix needed from some people.
i mean dillinja has been helpful.. polite.. helped the community.. and cos he slipped up once.. you all leap on him? yet im sure if it was the other way round.. ' its unfair.. im being picked on.. boo bloody hoo' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flammed? All he had to do was credit. And i did try to contact him drake but he blocked me on aim and ircq. So i tried twice to contact him yet he was ignorant and the rule says WILL BE MADE PUBLIC!! Ok somepeople need to read the rule themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
daza.. i wasnt directly accusing you.. i was saying it was went about all wrong.. and from what i have heard the mods involved in it were total **** aswell.. so yeah.. i back dillinja on it...
but yeah.. this is about general nettiquete <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Personnaly i tend to "zone out" when i see bad posts.
After 7 years, you get used to it...
And i was part of the CS-skins.net forum community... one of the NASTIEST bunch of people around. If your name wasn't "-x-" or "wannabe" or "lonewolf" or some of the most popular guys, you'd get almost FLAMED for simply making a model not look as good as theirs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
kewl, I used to be there too, zeroping forums right?
Well, for me, they sucked cuz they were always down, but yes, flaming has always been around there
also now, on a private forum i'm on where all the zeroping guys are registered
there's still flaming, but less
If people say like "OMG, that the worst thing i've ever seen, gj on the suckage !"
it's their way to express themselves, you can't change that to most of them
Anywayz, if there are people here whos feelings are hurt
Just don't give a thing about these guys, don't take it that hard
/EDIT: And if I would ever offend someone, it was not my intension. I've seen flaming too, I know what it feels like, but I have respect for everybodys work really. I've seen people, who started with not so good models etc, and who got flamed all the way ... but now, I see the same people, who make amazing things
<b>do not point fingers...</b>
about the dillijna thing... that was resolved in a PM, and was taken wrong... and into the public. the rules were followed, and the situation was disolved... it has now entered that "sore-subject" area, and don't go there... at least not until he's fixed it.
second, Blackpanther, i belong to those "secret forums" and they aren't as flammable as the ones here... i have even recived skinning help from "-x-" himself.
third, i seem to have been around longer than most in here stating that there is no problem... and yes, it is a problem, if it wasn't a problem, i wouldn't have been made a moderator to help deal with them... have you see how much of these posts/threads have been edited by me?... and i joined the forums when it was only Coil and well.... Coil editing these (particular) forums.
fourth, personal notes:
Jamil, you are brutally truthful, and us that have been around, know this, but in the end, and about the 4th time reading it through, we get past the brutal part, and soften it up for ourselves enough to see where the problem lies.
Wolf, you stick out in my mind as the most kind person on the forums
Maus, you stick out as most helpful person on the forums, since you pushed the official release topic, devoted all your webspace, and bandwidth to organizing the tutorials in a html version, and helped keep the tutorials thread updates, relevant, and helpful
HKPG, you have the hardest name for me to remember, but your work always stands out as top-knotch, and your additude cool, no matter how many flames you recive.
for everyone else... the above mentioned four people are "relics" they were ALL here before i was... follow in their example as i have... you might also notice that they are not the most active posters of the forums.. but they READ more than they post... as i have learned how to do
just because we don't post, doesn't mean anything, it just takes something that amazing for us to take that extra step.
The Golden Rule and all that [without the God stuff].