Another brilliant strategy that is contigent on the team having an impossible level of teamwork. Maybe, just maybe, this could be done in a match by a good clan. On a public server, you would be called a moron for suggesting anything other than br00t f0rc3 and 0wn0s ru5h. Anyway, breaking a turtle isnt hard if you have lerks provide umbra and a gorge behind the onos healing them. Still, it's harder than it was before bile bomb got nerfed. Now that the bile bomb, a ball of fricking hydrochloric acid, can't hurt people for some reason, and has the range of a thrown bowling ball, it's not too useful against turtles. The only way to use it against a turtle without getting shot is if you have a bunch of teammates in front of you taking fire, in which case you would be more help healing them.
I've been turtled in biodome before and we lost it in the end, we had some mines around the base for some reason and a suciding skulk pretty much annihlated everyone by accident. We lost all our heavy weapons and we just couldn't recover. :X
If your in a turtle situation at a hive and they're getting HA, you have to back off and wait. When they break out AND destroy several onos and fade they've pretty much got a free run of the map and skulks won't prove much of an issue for a competant HA side. Of course they can easily reevolve given how much res they'll have but that takes a lot of time which you don't have when the HA are shooting the hive.
Best hive to turtle in, in my opinion has to be engine room on bast. One entrance for things like Onos with that railing so they can't get in very easily.
lol it takes me a half hour of bellowing over a voice comm to get this to work...
But.. yes if u dont feed them RFK... AND fall back they WILL come simply out of curiosity..... From there you simply have 1-2 skulks follow until they are near a hive.... and once the skulks hear construction noises... rush in and get the CC
getting the cc verses anything else is the one thing i disagree with you on...
If you get that chair in 3-5 seconds they cannot relocate (just spent res on turret fac/phase gate ect, dont have much with one res node.)
Also get the cc and its game over no matter what
the order i enforce is CC, then PHASE, then IP, then whatever else.....
Hands down CC is the most important and vital marine building
and the way i see it, if they phase back, they wont take down the hive (in case something terrible happens and 3 onos 2 skulk and 4 fades CANT(OMG) get down the cc in an unprotected or sparsely protected marine base)
map: ns_bast Status: Marine base at original position. (we) Aliens had 3 hives at our control, and all the resource nozzles outside marine base. Game Length: Extremely LONG (& boring). Outcome: Unknown, possible defeat.
The comm announced that they will turtle now. What i heard he built insane amounts of turrets in the base, some said that they had like 5fps in there. :/
They welded the small vent no more suicide skulks that way.. And i if you tried to run up the elevator shaft, you got shred to pieces before you had the change of blowing up.
Then they saved up some resources and bought GL's (alot) and the spammage started, that lasted almost 15-20 minutes of constant explosions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Next thing we knew, they were planning to make HA Train.
I didnt bother to stick around after that point on, because i was bored and so were most of us.. dont know what happened though but i dont think Kharaa won <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
ps. if you think that onos(es) could make it up there.. nope, no change at all. Even if you get up there with the elevator.. <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
HOW THE HELL DID THEY DO IT! map tanith outcome:victery for aliens(them) we made a turtle in our spawn we had about 50-60 turrets, 10 seige turrets, 2 res nodes, 4 obs and 7 ips we had been fighting for our spawn for half an hour as they pulled off and buit outside spawn I sweeped them like no tommrow. killed about 6 onos and the gorge. we broke out and killed all there hives when they rushed satcom as we took it down and killed us. they had no hives but as soon as we all respawned and got HAs we were being acid-rocked we still had our phase in chemicl so we phased and killed 2 hives. and then anouther 20 mins of holding spawn they had 3rd hive back anouther 30 mins we lost. my first time comming and killed 5 hives and dragged game on for 1hr and 20 mins HOW THE HELL DID THE KILL US!
<!--QuoteBegin--miniman227+Jan 20 2004, 08:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (miniman227 @ Jan 20 2004, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> HOW THE HELL DID THEY KILL US! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They have res and you don't.
All the res they hoarded when you didn't kill them came back to bite you in the backside.
When taking down hives, keep rechecking and retaking and killing aliens. That way they run a res deficit and you will win. If you take out three hives and sit back, then all those onos players with 100 res to spare will be putting up hives, or when killed will come back as another onos. You need to nail these players so that killing the hives actually makes a difference.
Your turtle action and "holding spawn" strategy merely dragged the game out, your loss was already inevitable.
i personally hate turtling much. but heres the achillies heel of your turtle-break strat. it relyes on making the marines send vital forces out of base. first off if i dont have a HA train and the aliens let up then i send a small number of vanilla marines to see whats up. the marines needed for base defense stays there. one of three things will happen 1) they'll take something out and get RFK 2) they'll get taken out, which costs nothing if the aliens have the whole map 3.) they'll reach a vital spot where i can drop a PG and siege to controll anouther hive. if there are WOL's or aliens immediately outside the base then they can be taken out by the base defenders wihtout much risk. after that its fine running for ol' rambo.
now, say i have a HA train and the aliens are showing teamwork? do i rush them and die? no, i send the train to a spot not too far from the main base and drop an outpost. that way the main force can get back to base and attacking forces have more turrents to get past. not enough res? wait and send out vanillas. there are always 1 or 2 rambos to get RFK. remeber, a turtle doesnt matter if its a 5 hour game. eventually you'll march your outpost to a hive, if you have to drop and recycle every 5 ft.
This sounds like a really good strategy, but on pubs, I don't experience things happening as you described them in your post.
I wish commanders would send their marines out of a turtling base, so aliens can rush in and destroy it. I wish it were that easy. But in my experience, once the marines have started their turtling, especially in a hive, then they pretty much stay there. If the aliens don't attack, a couple marines may venture out, but never a group of considerable size. I think a marine commander figures that it's too risky to send out too many marines, and keeps most of them pulled back with welders and GLs.
I have been on both sides of a turtle, and it's always much less aggrivating for the marine side. The aliens have to fight their way into a stronghold, with every failed attempt making things worse. If they die, they have to re-evolve, re-upgrade, and make their way back to the frontlines. They also gotta keep pulling back to heal at some D chambers if they get too injured (<i>exept Fade</i>) which adds to the tediousness.
All a marine has to do, is spawn, hump the armory, and then turtle. If the marine gets bored, he can go outside to dance with an Onos or something. So what if he dies? He will be respawned in seconds. There's also the slight chance one marine can make it through, and ninja their way to a good PG spot. Even if you die 39 out of 40 ninja attempts, the sense of accomplishment from sneaking out a PG and winning the game is worth all the trying.
If you turtle at base long enough, or get lucky, you can score a Grenade Launcher. Then you can hump the armory all day and spam grenades down a hallway or something. Even if you fire 200 grenades around a corner without killing a single thing, spamming grenades is better than being stuck on the recieving end without much ability to do anything.
It doesn't bother me much to be on the marine side of a turtle. I can sit back and be lazy about the whole thing. If I am playing against a turtle on the alien team, it is very frustrating.
I'm not saying it's impossible for aliens to win against a turtling marine team, but a marine turtle can last for hours and <i>hours</i>. And then it just becomes a waiting game. Who gets bored first? Do the aliens just F4, do the marines let the aliens destroy their base, or does the Admin just change the map?
Many times I will find a server that I like, with good people. I don't want to leave such a good server, just because of lame turtling.. so I bite my lip and wait the whole thing out. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Turtling works for mostly one reason: they know you're coming from either entrance, and they'll focus fire on you like a madman and you'll drop like flies before you can get within 10 feet of anything. Turrets help, of course.
If they are hive turtling and you have mcs, then try getting everyone to evolve into a fade or an onos. Crowd around the mcs, somehow get a gorge in there and build the hive. Once hive gets attacked, mcs will direct units over there, and marine's range is instantly lost, and the turtle is over.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Dec 20 2003, 06:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Dec 20 2003, 06:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "you have to stop suiciding into their base and give them free RFK" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, at this point, where I mention xenocide and how that can win entire games, this is where I stopped reading. Xeno happens to be very good, and assuming you're using Celerity and triggering early, NOTHING will kill you before you boom. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read the whole post or at least understand the english language he is saying Stop going into the marine base and Stop giving the RFK not to stop Xenociding...
This is an idiot's strategy. I mean, come on, onos aren't that bad. I played a game last night where the marines relocated to mother hive on nancy after holding 5 nodes for about 10 minutes. Full upgrades and two heavies with hmg off the bat. It was cake to hold them in their base with fades and ocs, and we rushed them with four onos and it was over. When you have 9 rts you get 75 res in less than 2 minutes. You don't need to trick them into making a mistake. Use your res to get upper lifeforms, keep gassing them and throwing skulks at them so they're busy and build walls of lame outside their base for you to heal on. If they're in marine start there should be no problem. Xeno and web end any chance unless the aliens are useless. If they're in a hive just organize an onos rush. And if you die as onos just evolve again. Use your res advantage.
Allow me to school you in the english language, strongbad (original name).
You don't suicide into their base if you xenocide. You explode. They die, or get blown around. Yes you COULD get shot before going boom, but I quote myself
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> assuming you're using Celerity and triggering early, NOTHING will kill you before you boom. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said, which you missed thanks to your seeming lack of english skills, xenocide can win entire games, and if you all rush into a base having triggered your xenocide early then nothing will kill you before you explode.
Anyone who has been on the receiving end of a xeno rush will know what this is like - all it takes is a bit of wit.
In my opinion, the best turtle breakers (for 2 hives) is a mass rush of bullet pincushions (onos). If you send in 6 or 7 onos in, they cna only kill 1 or 2 before they all get stomped, half get eaten, and hte other half have to reload their HMGs. gg.
I really don't know how well this breaking strategy would work, a few GL's can take down a hive pretty quick, and you could have some real rotten luck and lose too many fades and onii to base defenders and the heavy train. I'd like to see it in action, but I think it's very possible that the comm would leave a good amount of base defense and would take out the hive very quickly, it might work well if they are turtled in marine start, but it's less likely to work if they are turtled in a hive, and don't forget to add the "pub factor", some people just won't listen.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
depends on turtling base location, but what also helps, incase you indeed got the onosbruutforce n00bs, is all go onos, all go celerity, all go focus, all go redemp.
Now go rush, and rush, and rush. insane amounts of DCs near all hives and aybe some gorges healing at hives for incoming redemp onos helps onos get on there way.
Especially if its a hive close to the base this is lethal. Simpyl cause That many onos coming in that fast overpowns welding.
Of course the suggestion in post1 IS the best option. Above won't work with: bad bases. (elevators etc) rines targeting one onos at a time small corridors forcing only one onos is. (if so, i suggest to move the second the onos before you redemps) n00b team if we are executing plan from post 1, cause then you are the ony one who bothered. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sometimes if the server allows it, and i'm on a server that lets you get a lot of res really fast. I build "super towers". This basicly involves stacking a load of SCs, DCs, and MCs on top of each other. Sometimes I top it off with some OCs or OCs arount the perimiter. Preatty funny to see rines come in and see this huge tower and say "OMG".
There is no sure-fire way to stop turtling; I've been on the receiving and giving end of this tactic, and I'm afraid I must say it is somewhat fun for both sides! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> As long as it doesn't drag out too long..... problem on pubs is, as people get tired and leave, new ones join and they keep the fight going, so eventually nobody quits. I personally think the best way to crack the turtle shell is to blockade the marines in with OC's, then whittle them down slowly. Eventually aliens will win, I think.
Has anyone ever had a game where marines managed to turle up two hives at once?
<!--QuoteBegin-Tourist+Feb 23 2004, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tourist @ Feb 23 2004, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is no sure-fire way to stop turtling; I've been on the receiving and giving end of this tactic, and I'm afraid I must say it is somewhat fun for both sides! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> As long as it doesn't drag out too long..... problem on pubs is, as people get tired and leave, new ones join and they keep the fight going, so eventually nobody quits. I personally think the best way to crack the turtle shell is to blockade the marines in with OC's, then whittle them down slowly. Eventually aliens will win, I think.
Has anyone ever had a game where marines managed to turle up two hives at once? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup. It was really annoting how I was attacking and we had a few skulks at reactor and they got owned..... couldn't get there in time <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Yelled at my team though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> thats always fun. Eventually we won through just throwing our skulks in a cannon fodder and using cloaked onos/fades (*note: this was before they had an obs) and killed thier base.
First Xeno will not work without a 3rd hive and most of this section is about HOW TO GET THE TURTLE REENS OUT OF A 3RD HIVE
now with that explained. How to get em out?
First of. YOU HAVE REZ. they dont. thus this means. assuming 10vs10 now if there not in bio.......
4 onos rush in with cara, 2 lerks with umbra. just behind them. take out an arms lab first (they will lose upgrades TILL THEY MAKE A NEW ONE. they still have them researched. BUT will not be active!) Then try to take out thier advanced armory. Lerks dont get killed. any surviving onos run away. but your all prob dead. what about those other four players? they where going onos! now rush in with the other onos, and kill the players. DO this till you WIN!
now if they are in bio. and have uber turret farm get. 4 gorge, 2 lerks. and the rest onos
get the 4 gorges to build on each elevorte, full OCS, and FULL DCs, and movements if you can. On one lift. make a line of OCs backed, by DCs, and BACKed by MOvements.
near the other elevator, build DCs on the the rim of the elivator, and oces just inside. with the onos infront.
Lower the chamber elevator. 2 second later. LOWER the second lift with onos. have onos rush the Turret Factories. with cara space of course. oh and the two lerks are gonna umbra of course. one umbras the Chamber lift. the other will umbra the onos.
And if they have seige? get the whole team to onos cept for. have em all have cara. some have celierty, some have adren. 8 onos go in, and try to kill as much as they can. dont go in as onos till you ahve 100 rez again. the other 2 onos, just ger ready to stomp and kill anything that trys to reatliate. if 8 onos cant kill their base. with ----------->>>> CARA <<<<-----------------
then. have the admin change the map.
if you got sensory. please bang you head on your desk for being a complete moron for getting sensory first and not having the skills to keep them in thier base.
If you get sensory second. Please do not repoduce. and if you have kill your off spring. Your genes are not needed in our gene pool
<!--QuoteBegin-RaVe+Dec 20 2003, 08:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RaVe @ Dec 20 2003, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And what IF they relocate to the newly destroyed hive?
Same thing all over again, but I doubt it because he already spent his res on an HA Train
BTW your building targets are a bit flawed.
#1 Priority, MUST be killed first : = Arms Lab = Armory - Phase Gates = CC = Obs
Last Priority, can be left till later: - Turrets / Siege Turrets
Now if you ask why I used a = for some of the structures, it's because they give a big advantage, CC being the most biggest threat. Armory second. Arms Lab and Obs are tied at third, but they become first priority IF they have gotten Lv 3 everything and MT, a very deadly combination that can cripple your attack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only that. Obs can sending the entire troop back in Marine Start. Hence, killing every aliens in sight. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[B]This is why you get movement chambers first and formost. Redemption dosent guarantee a safe trip to the hive. Its far better to have a movement chamber that will take you to the hive 100% of the time than throw your spawning and gestation times to chance.
Carpace compliments Oni better anyways, it keeps them in the front a bit longer. Regeneration is too slow, and with beta 3's hive regen uppage, you might as well just go back. Carpace and a well placed movement chamber in the fold. Not to mention that Onos does not have charge anymore in a true turtle senario, so getting out of tight positions is harder, and you have less of a chance at surprising an enemy due to the nature of the turle.
The turtle is a nasty thing in beta 3 because lurks no longer have a long range attack as a primary, and all evolutions below onos are too weak to cause any lasting damadge to a turret factory, or even turrets, alone. Bile bomb brings you too close to the turrets and not close enough to the factory. Always remember there is a tight nit group of 6 to 10 marines with full upgrades, HMG's and HA's that are patrolling the relativaly few entry points to the turled hive. And most often there is a guy with a grenade launcher and a jetpack that takes out the possibility of building anything near the turtle.
A good commander will give all of his troops welders. Thus you must always attack the same marine and the same structure, otherwise it does nothing. Besieged groops of marines will always weld themselves and the structures around them. If you plan to bile bomb a base, try to keep a onos behind, ready to eat any marine that comes out, but be warned, you and that onos must retreat soon enough.
Best plan would be a massive attack in a pincer manuver with at least 2-4 Oni and 1-2 lerks to lay the umbra thick on bothe the battlefields and excape routs. Best thing to do would be to build a movement chamber close enough to their tutle to be of use without bothering them too much. Take out the marines first, eating is best, keep in mind you dont want them to get their guns back. Best case senario, 3 turrets per onos and 2 marines eaten overall. Worst case, they rush and kill the lurks, and then the oni.
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'><u>DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE KILLED</u></span> Your death gives them precious resources, and the most annoying thing in dealing with turtles is the mass of newbs trying to zeno the turtle. <i>News flash!</i> zeno does little damadge, and the marines will get you first. Starve them of resources and destroy what little they have in small incriments. They wont have enough money to put down more turrets or equip themselves. Once they cant buy HA's and HMG's is when you go in and finish them off without fear of a comeback.
Xeno works if triggered early. If you trigger early then at WORST you kill nothing but yourself. No problem.
Second, turtles can happen anywhere, this is about breaking turtles.
Third, barring perhaps 2 hives in the entire game, hives are EASY to get into. Vents are your friend. You should have all three chambers (each hive rebuild equals new chamber choice, so you should certainly have all three upgrades).
From there you can sensory crawl into a hive, you can rush the Obs and proceed to maul the base, or you can run the risk of letting the marines break OUT before ripping them to small tiny pieces.
Finally, if you're being blown to bits by HA GL HMG trains with full cat and med spam support then it is because you HAVE LOST.
The reason we don't see threads entitled "How can I win as Skulk on my own with no hive" is because you CANT. Its not an imbalance, its called losing the game.
Next time be on the ball. A well and truly lamed up base exists because marines got insane res and no pressure was put on them. The only solution is to BLEED them dry. Let them leave base, then kill them. Their weapons are lost, you make a profit, and the marines get whittled down.
I speak from experience folks, I've participated in a turtle break on arguably one of the harder hives to crack - Waste Handling on Tanith.
a good strat that can work. is have all you team go onos, cara, and adren, and one gorge, and one lerk with the same thing. have all your forces stand next to a movement chamber. have your gorge run into the turtled hive and put up a hive. resulting in a gorge death. but a hive UNDER ATTACK. have team use movenets, and its instand trasport into the hive under attack. the tuttle hive. have the lerk umbra like crazy and you win
Good idea..... also if you can see thier obs from a doorway get a load of fade and acid rocket the thing to death. Then send in cloaked onis. By the time they get a new obs up it will be too late....
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
newsflash!!
Xeno (not zeno tss) does <b>200</b> damage. that IS usefull.
When timed right lets see the results: Xeno= 200 dmg and skulk dead. Bite= 75 dmg and skulk dead. (ya aitn gona tell me you get a abite in there base and get out again. Thats not a turtle.
So it indeed IS usefull. Get your facts straight next time.
Xeno also knocks people around the base, so they're not camping in one spot.
That throws off their aim, allowing follow ups. If you're persistent you can xeno a base down to 2-3 men then RUSH it to take out IPs, Tfacs, Obs and the like, snagging marines as they respawn.
I just had the best turtle! We were held up in one of the hive in mine shaft. I joined late so we were already there. We had heavies so that helped. Basicly I got to sit and protect the base with the comm popping out to help (I got eaten 4 times, one was an onos haxor who ate me from across the room). While my teamies went to go kill the hives, and we actually won.
Thanx to my l33t d3f3nding skillz! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
If your in a turtle situation at a hive and they're getting HA, you have to back off and wait. When they break out AND destroy several onos and fade they've pretty much got a free run of the map and skulks won't prove much of an issue for a competant HA side. Of course they can easily reevolve given how much res they'll have but that takes a lot of time which you don't have when the HA are shooting the hive.
Best hive to turtle in, in my opinion has to be engine room on bast. One entrance for things like Onos with that railing so they can't get in very easily.
lol it takes me a half hour of bellowing over a voice comm to get this to work...
But.. yes if u dont feed them RFK... AND fall back they WILL come simply out of curiosity..... From there you simply have 1-2 skulks follow until they are near a hive.... and once the skulks hear construction noises... rush in and get the CC
getting the cc verses anything else is the one thing i disagree with you on...
If you get that chair in 3-5 seconds they cannot relocate (just spent res on turret fac/phase gate ect, dont have much with one res node.)
Also get the cc and its game over no matter what
the order i enforce is CC, then PHASE, then IP, then whatever else.....
Hands down CC is the most important and vital marine building
and the way i see it, if they phase back, they wont take down the hive (in case something terrible happens and 3 onos 2 skulk and 4 fades CANT(OMG) get down the cc in an unprotected or sparsely protected marine base)
~Jason
Status: Marine base at original position. (we) Aliens had 3 hives at our control,
and all the resource nozzles outside marine base.
Game Length: Extremely LONG (& boring).
Outcome: Unknown, possible defeat.
The comm announced that they will turtle now. What i heard he built insane amounts of turrets in the base, some said that they had like 5fps in there. :/
They welded the small vent no more suicide skulks that way.. And i if you tried to run up the elevator shaft, you got shred to pieces before you had the change of blowing up.
Then they saved up some resources and bought GL's (alot) and the spammage started, that lasted almost 15-20 minutes of constant explosions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Next thing we knew, they were planning to make HA Train.
I didnt bother to stick around after that point on, because i was bored and so were most of us.. dont know what happened though but i dont think Kharaa won <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
ps. if you think that onos(es) could make it up there.. nope, no change at all. Even if you get up there with the elevator.. <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Although with it closed it provides excellent cover for you to bile, spore, spike, acid rocket through.
map tanith
outcome:victery for aliens(them)
we made a turtle in our spawn we had about 50-60 turrets, 10 seige turrets, 2 res nodes, 4 obs and 7 ips
we had been fighting for our spawn for half an hour as they pulled off and buit outside spawn I sweeped them like no tommrow. killed about 6 onos and the gorge. we broke out and killed all there hives when they rushed satcom as we took it down and killed us. they had no hives but as soon as we all respawned and got HAs we were being acid-rocked we still had our phase in chemicl so we phased and killed 2 hives. and then anouther 20 mins of holding spawn they had 3rd hive back
anouther 30 mins we lost. my first time comming and killed 5 hives and dragged game on for 1hr and 20 mins HOW THE HELL DID THE KILL US!
They have res and you don't.
When taking down hives, keep rechecking and retaking and killing aliens. That way they run a res deficit and you will win. If you take out three hives and sit back, then all those onos players with 100 res to spare will be putting up hives, or when killed will come back as another onos. You need to nail these players so that killing the hives actually makes a difference.
Your turtle action and "holding spawn" strategy merely dragged the game out, your loss was already inevitable.
now, say i have a HA train and the aliens are showing teamwork? do i rush them and die? no, i send the train to a spot not too far from the main base and drop an outpost. that way the main force can get back to base and attacking forces have more turrents to get past. not enough res? wait and send out vanillas. there are always 1 or 2 rambos to get RFK. remeber, a turtle doesnt matter if its a 5 hour game. eventually you'll march your outpost to a hive, if you have to drop and recycle every 5 ft.
I wish commanders would send their marines out of a turtling base, so aliens can rush in and destroy it. I wish it were that easy. But in my experience, once the marines have started their turtling, especially in a hive, then they pretty much stay there. If the aliens don't attack, a couple marines may venture out, but never a group of considerable size. I think a marine commander figures that it's too risky to send out too many marines, and keeps most of them pulled back with welders and GLs.
I have been on both sides of a turtle, and it's always much less aggrivating for the marine side. The aliens have to fight their way into a stronghold, with every failed attempt making things worse. If they die, they have to re-evolve, re-upgrade, and make their way back to the frontlines. They also gotta keep pulling back to heal at some D chambers if they get too injured (<i>exept Fade</i>) which adds to the tediousness.
All a marine has to do, is spawn, hump the armory, and then turtle. If the marine gets bored, he can go outside to dance with an Onos or something. So what if he dies? He will be respawned in seconds. There's also the slight chance one marine can make it through, and ninja their way to a good PG spot. Even if you die 39 out of 40 ninja attempts, the sense of accomplishment from sneaking out a PG and winning the game is worth all the trying.
If you turtle at base long enough, or get lucky, you can score a Grenade Launcher. Then you can hump the armory all day and spam grenades down a hallway or something. Even if you fire 200 grenades around a corner without killing a single thing, spamming grenades is better than being stuck on the recieving end without much ability to do anything.
It doesn't bother me much to be on the marine side of a turtle. I can sit back and be lazy about the whole thing. If I am playing against a turtle on the alien team, it is very frustrating.
I'm not saying it's impossible for aliens to win against a turtling marine team, but a marine turtle can last for hours and <i>hours</i>. And then it just becomes a waiting game. Who gets bored first? Do the aliens just F4, do the marines let the aliens destroy their base, or does the Admin just change the map?
Many times I will find a server that I like, with good people. I don't want to leave such a good server, just because of lame turtling.. so I bite my lip and wait the whole thing out. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If they are hive turtling and you have mcs, then try getting everyone to evolve into
a fade or an onos. Crowd around the mcs, somehow get a gorge in there and build the hive. Once hive gets attacked, mcs will direct units over there, and marine's range is instantly lost, and the turtle is over.
"you have to stop suiciding into their base and give them free RFK"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, at this point, where I mention xenocide and how that can win entire games, this is where I stopped reading. Xeno happens to be very good, and assuming you're using Celerity and triggering early, NOTHING will kill you before you boom. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the whole post or at least understand the english language he is saying Stop going into the marine base and Stop giving the RFK not to stop Xenociding...
Good Start Lerker i will have try this one
-[2iD]Bill D. Hives[CpL]
You don't suicide into their base if you xenocide. You explode. They die, or get blown around. Yes you COULD get shot before going boom, but I quote myself
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
assuming you're using Celerity and triggering early, NOTHING will kill you before you boom.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said, which you missed thanks to your seeming lack of english skills, xenocide can win entire games, and if you all rush into a base having triggered your xenocide early then nothing will kill you before you explode.
Anyone who has been on the receiving end of a xeno rush will know what this is like - all it takes is a bit of wit.
Now go rush, and rush, and rush.
insane amounts of DCs near all hives and aybe some gorges healing at hives for incoming redemp onos helps onos get on there way.
Especially if its a hive close to the base this is lethal. Simpyl cause That many onos coming in that fast overpowns welding.
Of course the suggestion in post1 IS the best option.
Above won't work with:
bad bases. (elevators etc)
rines targeting one onos at a time
small corridors forcing only one onos is. (if so, i suggest to move the second the onos before you redemps)
n00b team
if we are executing plan from post 1, cause then you are the ony one who bothered. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Has anyone ever had a game where marines managed to turle up two hives at once?
Has anyone ever had a game where marines managed to turle up two hives at once? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup. It was really annoting how I was attacking and we had a few skulks at reactor and they got owned..... couldn't get there in time <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Yelled at my team though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> thats always fun. Eventually we won through just throwing our skulks in a cannon fodder and using cloaked onos/fades (*note: this was before they had an obs) and killed thier base.
now with that explained. How to get em out?
First of. YOU HAVE REZ. they dont. thus this means.
assuming 10vs10
now if there not in bio.......
4 onos rush in with cara, 2 lerks with umbra. just behind them. take out an arms lab first (they will lose upgrades TILL THEY MAKE A NEW ONE. they still have them researched. BUT will not be active!)
Then try to take out thier advanced armory. Lerks dont get killed. any surviving onos run away. but your all prob dead. what about those other four players? they where going onos!
now rush in with the other onos, and kill the players.
DO this till you WIN!
now if they are in bio.
and have uber turret farm
get. 4 gorge, 2 lerks. and the rest onos
get the 4 gorges to build on each elevorte, full OCS, and FULL DCs, and movements if you can. On one lift. make a line of OCs backed, by DCs, and BACKed by MOvements.
near the other elevator, build DCs on the the rim of the elivator, and oces just inside. with the onos infront.
Lower the chamber elevator. 2 second later. LOWER the second lift with onos.
have onos rush the Turret Factories. with cara space of course.
oh and the two lerks are gonna umbra of course. one umbras the Chamber lift. the other will umbra the onos.
And if they have seige?
get the whole team to onos cept for. have em all have cara. some have celierty, some have adren. 8 onos go in, and try to kill as much as they can. dont go in as onos till you ahve 100 rez again. the other 2 onos, just ger ready to stomp and kill anything that trys to reatliate.
if 8 onos cant kill their base. with ----------->>>> CARA <<<<-----------------
then. have the admin change the map.
if you got sensory. please bang you head on your desk for being a complete moron for getting sensory first and not having the skills to keep them in thier base.
If you get sensory second. Please do not repoduce. and if you have kill your off spring. Your genes are not needed in our gene pool
Same thing all over again, but I doubt it because he already spent his res on an HA Train
BTW your building targets are a bit flawed.
#1 Priority, MUST be killed first :
= Arms Lab
= Armory
- Phase Gates
= CC
= Obs
#2 Priority :
- Turret Factories
- IPs
- Proto Lab
Last Priority, can be left till later:
- Turrets / Siege Turrets
Now if you ask why I used a = for some of the structures, it's because they give a big advantage, CC being the most biggest threat. Armory second. Arms Lab and Obs are tied at third, but they become first priority IF they have gotten Lv 3 everything and MT, a very deadly combination that can cripple your attack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only that. Obs can sending the entire troop back in Marine Start. Hence, killing every aliens in sight. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Carpace compliments Oni better anyways, it keeps them in the front a bit longer. Regeneration is too slow, and with beta 3's hive regen uppage, you might as well just go back. Carpace and a well placed movement chamber in the fold.
Not to mention that Onos does not have charge anymore in a true turtle senario, so getting out of tight positions is harder, and you have less of a chance at surprising an enemy due to the nature of the turle.
The turtle is a nasty thing in beta 3 because lurks no longer have a long range attack as a primary, and all evolutions below onos are too weak to cause any lasting damadge to a turret factory, or even turrets, alone. Bile bomb brings you too close to the turrets and not close enough to the factory. Always remember there is a tight nit group of 6 to 10 marines with full upgrades, HMG's and HA's that are patrolling the relativaly few entry points to the turled hive. And most often there is a guy with a grenade launcher and a jetpack that takes out the possibility of building anything near the turtle.
A good commander will give all of his troops welders. Thus you must always attack the same marine and the same structure, otherwise it does nothing. Besieged groops of marines will always weld themselves and the structures around them. If you plan to bile bomb a base, try to keep a onos behind, ready to eat any marine that comes out, but be warned, you and that onos must retreat soon enough.
Best plan would be a massive attack in a pincer manuver with at least 2-4 Oni and 1-2 lerks to lay the umbra thick on bothe the battlefields and excape routs. Best thing to do would be to build a movement chamber close enough to their tutle to be of use without bothering them too much. Take out the marines first, eating is best, keep in mind you dont want them to get their guns back. Best case senario, 3 turrets per onos and 2 marines eaten overall. Worst case, they rush and kill the lurks, and then the oni.
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'><u>DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE KILLED</u></span>
Your death gives them precious resources, and the most annoying thing in dealing with turtles is the mass of newbs trying to zeno the turtle.
<i>News flash!</i> zeno does little damadge, and the marines will get you first.
Starve them of resources and destroy what little they have in small incriments. They wont have enough money to put down more turrets or equip themselves. Once they cant buy HA's and HMG's is when you go in and finish them off without fear of a comeback.
Second, turtles can happen anywhere, this is about breaking turtles.
Third, barring perhaps 2 hives in the entire game, hives are EASY to get into. Vents are your friend. You should have all three chambers (each hive rebuild equals new chamber choice, so you should certainly have all three upgrades).
From there you can sensory crawl into a hive, you can rush the Obs and proceed to maul the base, or you can run the risk of letting the marines break OUT before ripping them to small tiny pieces.
Finally, if you're being blown to bits by HA GL HMG trains with full cat and med spam support then it is because you HAVE LOST.
The reason we don't see threads entitled "How can I win as Skulk on my own with no hive" is because you CANT. Its not an imbalance, its called losing the game.
Next time be on the ball. A well and truly lamed up base exists because marines got insane res and no pressure was put on them. The only solution is to BLEED them dry. Let them leave base, then kill them. Their weapons are lost, you make a profit, and the marines get whittled down.
I speak from experience folks, I've participated in a turtle break on arguably one of the harder hives to crack - Waste Handling on Tanith.
have team use movenets, and its instand trasport into the hive under attack. the tuttle hive. have the lerk umbra like crazy and you win
Xeno (not zeno tss) does <b>200</b> damage. that IS usefull.
When timed right lets see the results:
Xeno= 200 dmg and skulk dead.
Bite= 75 dmg and skulk dead. (ya aitn gona tell me you get a abite in there base and get out again. Thats not a turtle.
So it indeed IS usefull. Get your facts straight next time.
That throws off their aim, allowing follow ups. If you're persistent you can xeno a base down to 2-3 men then RUSH it to take out IPs, Tfacs, Obs and the like, snagging marines as they respawn.
Very successful.
Lots of onos, devour enemy team, few marines left, kill IPs and kill rest and game win
Team:n00bzors 0wn0s mu$tz 0wwwnnnnn with m3l33
Sad aint it, the devour tatic sounds good, they're nice and safe inside you, unable to spawn or shoot. Less people shooting you
Thanx to my l33t d3f3nding skillz! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->