Niave Vs Jaded Gamers
Geminosity
:3 Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20667Members
:3 Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20667Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">when everything loses it's glitter...</div> It happens everyday... a person picks up a type of game they've never played and they get hooked on the new and refreshing experiences they come across; it's all so different and new it's hard not to feel a glow of intrepidation and happiness that makes you cry out "wow this game rocks!".
Given enough exposure though and the novelty wears off and the flaws glare through leaving you thirsting for something greater than the horribly mundane gameplay they offer. You see the man the behind the curtain; you realise that what you thought was fun isn't really when you think about it; it's more like work than amusement.
That's where I am with MMORPGs. The problem lies in the new players; they come on forums posting such happy things like 'this game is so cool!', 'this game will be BIG!!!' and 'this is so much better than so-and-so' like it's a new evolution in gaming. When that happens you've got three options really; you can ignore it, you can smile remembering what it was like when you couldn't see every fault and problem staring you in the face when you start up the treadmill or... you can feel the burning desire to slap them awake and make them see reality like you.
I'd love to do the 2nd but I can't... the 3rd always wins. For every person going through their little journey of gaming wonder and discovery with the golden pot of jaded gamerism at the end the companies will see more money to continue producing the swill they churn out.
The question really is though, is it this desire for better games and the ideal of getting the message across the money-grubbing gaming industry or a deep-rooted bitterness that you can no longer enjoy the niave pleasures within these games like the new players that drives option number 3?
Is it a desire to help or is it merely selfish jealousy?
Given enough exposure though and the novelty wears off and the flaws glare through leaving you thirsting for something greater than the horribly mundane gameplay they offer. You see the man the behind the curtain; you realise that what you thought was fun isn't really when you think about it; it's more like work than amusement.
That's where I am with MMORPGs. The problem lies in the new players; they come on forums posting such happy things like 'this game is so cool!', 'this game will be BIG!!!' and 'this is so much better than so-and-so' like it's a new evolution in gaming. When that happens you've got three options really; you can ignore it, you can smile remembering what it was like when you couldn't see every fault and problem staring you in the face when you start up the treadmill or... you can feel the burning desire to slap them awake and make them see reality like you.
I'd love to do the 2nd but I can't... the 3rd always wins. For every person going through their little journey of gaming wonder and discovery with the golden pot of jaded gamerism at the end the companies will see more money to continue producing the swill they churn out.
The question really is though, is it this desire for better games and the ideal of getting the message across the money-grubbing gaming industry or a deep-rooted bitterness that you can no longer enjoy the niave pleasures within these games like the new players that drives option number 3?
Is it a desire to help or is it merely selfish jealousy?
Comments
Then it just got boring. You spent most of your time watching a ship shoot a rock with an orange beam. It crashed a lot. There's loads of graphical bugs. The jump from frigate to cruiser is hard, but it doesn't seem impossible. The jump from cruiser to battleship seems impossible, especially when you realise just how boring it is to sit there and mine mine mine mine mine...
Although now i hear that they've made the bounties on pirates incredibly high (compared to what they were). But that doesn't matter to me, i've stopped playing. And if i hear anyone else talking about it, i tell them what i think about it.
To me it's a bit of a mix of reasons. One of them is that i think they're just being plain stupid not to see it, and it gets me angry so i just tell them. I know they're not stupid, they just haven't played it enough, and maybe they're a true RPG player (i'm not tbh).
It's probably a mix of things for a lot of people, but the main thing is "I know something you know and i'll tell you" i guess.
While better in a lot of ways Phantasy Star Online is far from perfect; I just can't stop loving the game even though I don't play it anymore though and it's unfufilled potential was barely scratched =P
If you ever want someone to blame for what's happened to PC games in the last 5 years, go find someone 14 or younger who loves games, and hit them.
Very hard.
PC Gaming used to be a very little-known thing. I mean, beyond the NES system, how many people played Wolfenstein? Compared to now? Well... almost no one. In order to make money the games came out slowly but quality. You WANTED to keep your target audience thrilled for your next release.
Then came the other generation of gamers, the kids whose parents thought the TV was synonumous with 'Baby Sitter'. Now they've been weaned for this 'Satisfaction now' that makes game companies like EA Games filthy rich: Producing crap that any little punk will play for just long enough to tell their friends how great it is. Who cares if they end up sick of it: You can produce one title to engross an audience for 60 hours for $50, or you can produce 6 titles to engross an audience for $300.
Thus we see the commercial success of multiplayer-only games: A repetative, drab, boring game that lasts as long as a 14 year old's attention span. Who wants to take the time making a single-player thriller that takes <b>brains</b> when the key demographic is too stupid, greedy, and lazy to read a book?
The saddest part is that this will only get worse and worse.
MMORPGs just rely on 'people = addictive'. Anything done well can be even more fun multiplayer if done right. Unfortunately most MMORPGs are glorified IRC with a rather tacky number system attached and some eye candy all to keep the players hooked. Ask most people who are still playing an MMORPG they started a year or two ago and they'll usually tell you they're still there because of the people; the games themselves are dire =/
As for the games changing to meet demand (i.e, get them out the door as quickly as possible and we get money), i agree. I wasn't actually around for most of the games (i think i got a PC after Half Life was released, for example), but even i see games come out that obviously aren't finished, but the developers aren't influencial enough to say "No, we can't release it yet because it's not finished", because if they do, the publisher will drop them. It's sad, but true. you can tell this by Half Life 2, you can bet that another dev company would have been forced to release the game on the date they provided, leak or no leak, finished or not. But considering Valve are the makers of the best game ever, they've got pretty much free reign on what they do.
Jaded indeed.
I'm sure if I actually thought about it I could pick flaws in gunstar heroes or streets of rage until the cows come home but it doesn't stop me from loving them to bits.
To be honest I'm not even sure who your post was aimed at... I've never looked for flaws in a game actively outside of when I was employed as a gamestester and most of the 'faults' I'm talking of are things that become apparent to most players over time.
as for fun being 'extracted' I don't have a scooby what the heck you're talking about... I'm sure it sounded clever when you typed it but not only is it ill-fitting but it makes little sense to me at least =P
In Ragnarok I used to help new players and sometimes I'd go to the levelling areas to get a few new skills and so I'd mingle with the high levels too. Generally in RO and most MMORPGs I've played the new players are enthusiastic, excited and awed; the players who've been around the block tend to become bored as the games true emptiness becomes apparent. Enjoying things for what they are is great and all but manure is still manure no matter how much you try to appreciate it =P
Am I supposed to just think 'yeah... the numbers which go up through no involvement of my actual skills and merely the time I waste clicking faceless monsters go up... that's fantastic' and be happy?
Sometimes you <b>shouldn't</b> just sit back and take what you get... if people just sat about accepting and 'appreciating' things we'd be whacking each other with rocks thinking the world is flat.
thinking about para's 'appreciate things for what they are', you do have to ask yourself if ignorance is bliss =/
I mean heck; you actually enjoy the number-crunching hamster factories until the illusion that it's anything other than a calculator fetishist's wet dream drops away from your eyes like a veil ^^;
Talk about ill fitting...ignorance is bliss? You have one up on me because you get bored with a game and then angry? I'll take my ignorance if the alternative means I need to be upset and dislike playing games. Did you honestly think everyone was gonna agree with you? Sounds like you thought you were gonna get a nice little rally behind you...
thinking about para's 'appreciate things for what they are', you do have to ask yourself if ignorance is bliss =/
I mean heck; you actually enjoy the number-crunching hamster factories until the illusion that it's anything other than a calculator fetishist's wet dream drops away from your eyes like a veil ^^; <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point is moot if you cant even think up a good alternative to the "hamster factory" dont ya think?
What do you want them to do? Or you just want me to be **** off along side you?
I wasn't calling you ignorant silly, check the post out again with slightly less aggression.
actually para, I've been suggesting gameplay improvements on official gameboards since I first ever started using the internet =/
This is the discussion forum, I was after some discussion... if I wanted a rally I could easily just do it the same ways I've done it in the past in the actual games.
What do I want from games? What do I enjoy? I enjoy playing in rich worlds, exploring and generally just doing whatever my character does. Numbers and the gameplay systems currently used by many MMORPGs impede this. If your skills just went up appropriately with use there'd be no more stopping to choose your stats because you just levelled. If games encouraged things with some sort of 'flow' to them like dungeons and other adventurous places you could explore rather than just having big empty fields full of respawning monsters you're supposed to monotonously slaughter to pump digits with. Stats should never be shown numerically to the player, they should be in the background taking care of themselves and only visible by things like your success rate or subtle things like animation, appearance or other such indicators that don't scream at you to break out the calculator and write guides on the best 'template'. Current MMORPGs are less like games now and more like formula theory.
And the actual actions should be more player oriented; like combat and whatnot. Get rid of autoattacks for crying out loud ><
when someone's building something don't just bring up a progress bar, give them a minigame or something that's difficulty is defined by how good the char is at the task and have the outcome based on their success or failure. Simple yet effective.
Anyways, like you said, this is all stuff that can be covered in an existing thread; what this is about is new gamers experiences and experienced gamers. The attitudes, the thoughts, the opinions.
I didn't really appreciate you coming in to try and tell me I'm some rage-induced hater of everything and life itself and that I'm determined to destroy fun in everything I do... I mean heck, I've got a temper but that's just way off the mark =P
Remember, it's the discussion forum, not 'insult someone because you don't like their thread' forum.
No actually, I wouldnt call them naive, just because they dont actively seek flaws. I think the problem isnt the flaws (god knows flaws are needed), but rather you that have experienced too many adrenaline and excitement rushes, perhaps it's time to cool off abit?
Personally I can live into peoples pleasures, I'm option 2 all the way <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Like I said when parasite put the same point less tactfully though, I've never actively seeked out flaws. They're just something that sorta smack you in the face after playing the game for a few weeks/months.
I guess 'niave' isn't the best word I could've used... even 'inexperienced' would be slightly derogatory sounding. I dunno... you kinda get the point at least <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>edit:</b> I only start feeling angry when people start declaring it as the best game ever or stuff or going on about how great it is. If they say they're enjoying this or having fun with that I don't really mind. Maybe in my case I can just think of games that, in my opinion at least, far eclipse the game in question and get annoyed at the fact they haven't played it and therefore don't realise what they're missing.
I agree with current stat systems, the whole mmorpg thing, while not incredibly new, is fairly new in its current graphic state...but its still falls back onto that pen and paper stat buiding idea (obviously text stats are best represented as numbers) we will eveolve away from the current system before to long I think. Also, many players dont enjoy PvP...so fighting an abundance of monsters is really the only alternative.
<b>edit:</b> I only start feeling angry when people start declaring it as the best game ever or stuff or going on about how great it is. If they say they're enjoying this or having fun with that I don't really mind. Maybe in my case I can just think of games that, in my opinion at least, far eclipse the game in question and get annoyed at the fact they haven't played it and therefore don't realise what they're missing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but, im sure at some point you mustve played a game you loved nearly that much and eventualy got bored with ..maybe not, but besides "to each thier own"
maybe IM mis inturpreting your use of the word "angry" but I dont understand being angered over things that, imo, shouldnt have any emotional effect on a person whatsoever :shrugs:
I didn't mean to insult anyone with the title really, it was just the first word that came to mind that hit roughly in the ball park ^^;
I was thinking 'new' might be better but I never change the contents of my posts so it'll have to stay =P
well I've always preferred 'coop' over 'PvE'. Though I constantly go on about it because I'm obsessed; Phantasy Star Online took the first step in the right direction. While you can do missions with your friends the base game allows you and your lil party to fight through the levels and bosses together. Much like diablo I guess but more free-flowing and less about going backwards and forwards to do lil missions before the final one opens up and people tend to stick together more and chat more than in D/D2.
Asheron's call 2 also lends towards this in it's 'vaults' with a big dungeon you and your friends work through with a nice boss to beat heck out of at the end. Ultimately more puzzles and stuff rather than just constant fighting would be good too... like resident evil =D
<b>para edit:</b> eep! you and your double posts XD
well usually I know a rough background of what games people have played just by chatting to them beforehand, so someone saying something like 'biosfear is amazing! it rocks!!!' having only ever played the likes of conquer online and MU online tends to rub me the wrong way. I mean I understand why they might think it's great based on what they've played but it's sort of a mix of sorrow and irritation I get from it more than genuine shouty anger. I don't bawl people out over it or anything but it really irks me for reasons unknown =s
In system shock 2, at the begining of the game I thought for sure I'd be using Psi abilities all the time...so for the first half of the game I spent all my upgrade points on psi upgrades. As the game went on, I realized I really only used my pistol, even though statistically my pistol was about the weakest weapon I had. My aim with the design Im working on is to leave those "stats" up to the computer wich bases them off the players actions...IE in system shock 2, because I had used the pistol almost exclusively it would be my best weapon, not the psi abilities that I rarely used but gave most of my stat points to.
the problem with this is communicating to the player how they go about acheiving thier goals (it may not be obvious that they just do what they want to become what they want) Also, stat buildin is not hated by all...theres more than one reason we see it in every game...its a succesful system thats easy to understand.
Your idea sounds a lot like the sort of direction I'd like games to go, though mine differ a bit in being more 3rd person and character focussed but still a super-heavy emphasis on player skill. For example if your char had a gun and locked on to an enemy you'd see a dot representing where the gun is pointed; higher char skills would cause it to wobble about less and the player skill would come in on timing the shot so it's over where they want to hit when they pull the trigger. Of course they could just use the iron sights which is first-person and allows them manual aim with the aim wobble based on how good they were with it.
A few cool little things is to make lots of very small levels so that you're constantly going up as you use the weapon making it feel less 'digital'.
As for 'easy to understand' you can't get simpler to comprehend than 'I get better by doing it' =D
it'd just be a strange concept to most players because they're so used to ye olde point/level-based ones ^^
Everquest was one of the best experiences in my life: It proved people CANNOT get along, and that its quite funny most the time.
I played the Sims Online, and while it was fun- it was a chat room with 3d graphics.
Then theres my current addiction: Final Fantasy XI
And I've been playing for a month. Its great- I love it.
It requires a lot of work, but much like life itself- sometimes you get lucky, and you have some of the most fun that you have felt in a REALLY long time. Heres a great example:
Me and my two friends in FFXI, were in a place called "Giddeus", or basically the home of the tribes of "Yagudo", crowmen that basically hate all natural civilization. We were just training up to get stronger, and we come across 3 of some of the biggest "Oh s***" monsters of the day, that would slaughter us 1 on 3- but they ALL decide to attack. We start off having my friend Shizoki(Theif Level 9) tanking, while me, the Warrior lvl 8, just hit the hell out of one, and our friend Shuyinffxii healing Shizoki. Now, there was no way in hell Shuyin could have kept up- so I took tanking abilities, and Shu just healed Shizoki for a solid 45 seconds. Just when I'm about to die, and we only had 2 left- Shizoki took the reigns back, and we traded off the rest of the battle.
There was more teamwork in that segment that the average clan game- we were doing things so incredibly fast, with such exact precision, that we just had a blast. And it was more than being on autoattack and just provoking back and forth- there was skillchains(where 2 people or more do Weapon Skills in a certain row, presenting added damage and a special weakness for the enemy), and also XP chains which were merely killing enemies in under 60 between each kill. And it was some of the most fun I've had in a long time. We even died later doing the same thing- and I was having so much fun, I didn't care.
Don't bash MMOs just cause they aren't your style. I think their great, many of them. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Don't play MMORPG's kids, they are a complete waste of time untill something truely innovative comes out. I don't know if the latest FF is the right stuff, but I don't think it is.
The best MMORPG so far was PSO, sweet jesus it was so good.
Anyhow, it's best to stick with games that are based off your skill, not the numbers you accumliate.
=3
PSO was such a good step towards character and player skill though. I just wish they'd taken it further instead of turning it into a card game ^^;
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I would like to point to Bungie as being a company that still cares.
I hope at least SOMEONE agrees.
=3 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer the term, calloused
...I think I'll just stick with a MMOMGG (Massively multiplayer Online Multi-Genre Game).
Things like hard coded control sensitivity to level the playing field of pilots, stats that are only changed by use, and a more fluid class system in which you don't pick a set class, you simply use skills that class is known for. Randomly generated encounters replacing set spawns and eventually being able to serve as a strategic "commander" for military and other forces as you fight for control of anything from individual buildings all the way up to star systems and galaxies. An item building and technology researching system that requires input from the player, does not leave them with a progress bar, and is seemingly limitless in the field of player based customization and overall expandability.
It's the type of game I want to see, the type of game that could make this jaded gamer friggin' giddy.
If you ever want someone to blame for what's happened to PC games in the last 5 years, go find someone 14 or younger who loves games, and hit them.
Very hard.
...snip...
Thus we see the commercial success of multiplayer-only games: A repetative, drab, boring game that lasts as long as a 14 year old's attention span. Who wants to take the time making a single-player thriller that takes <b>brains</b> when the key demographic is too stupid, greedy, and lazy to read a book?
The saddest part is that this will only get worse and worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't the fault of the 14 year old, it's a fault with society as a whole.
We are all to blame for the "instant gratification" society that we have now. Fast food, fast coffee, fast films, fast cars, fast sex (well, OK, some of them are acceptable! *grin* And for the 14 year olds, that means sex with someone else - that doesn't include your hand, sock, pillow, duvet...), they all are products of a society that isn't prepared to wait.
It's not just the instant need that causes the problem either. I work for an ISP that was testing a new service before opening it up to customers. The customers were screaming that they wanted the service NOW and were not interested that it needed proper testing - they wanted it <b>NOW!!!!</b>. The company was called incompetent and inconsiderate because they wouldn't release the service straight away. Under pressure (from customers and share holders) they opened the service - and it failed because the testing hadn't been completed fully. What happened then? The company was called incompetent and incosiderate because they brought out a service that didn't work fully. This hypocritical attitude of "blame someone else" is apparent in all walks of life.
As a side note, but still on topic, did you know that the US Tomb Raider was easier than the UK Tomb Raider because the US audience would get bored if it was too difficult <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well I'm American and I still found the game borish because of low difficulty, tedious platform jumping, final fantasy tactics, suikoden, metal gear solid, resident evil, and a host of other games that were just plain better at the time. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->