Early Shotguns

afratnikov · January 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">1 shotgun per squad leader</div> Here's an idea: build 2 ips, armory, maybe an electrified TF and then hand out 1 shotgun to each squad leader (NS veterans preffered)and send the 2-3 groups wondering, killing off gorges and resource towers or going to important locations. The firepower of the squad will increase and even if a shotgun is dropped due to the killed squad leader, one of the survivors can still pick it up and get it back to the base.
That way the comm won't lose resources due to dropped shotguns (which happens in shotgun rushes) and he will still have very powerful squads able to kill small gorge gangs and groups of skulks (even a hive: shotgunner shooting at hive while 2 LMG-teammates kill skulks).
The worst that could happen is if the squads will get killed and the comm lost 30 rez, but if the shotguns are given to good players, they won't let that happen and will make up rhe rez through RFK.

Early shotguns in squads
Pros
- added power to squads through a small investment
- few counters by aliens (no lerks and fewer skulks due to RT-grabbing) skulk's only counter is ambush
- even if the shotgun-owner is killed, squad members can still pick it up and bring it back to base saving rez
- killing of gorges and rts will cripple alien's economy and spirit
- a lot of RFK to the commander paying for the investment
... can you think of more?

Cons
- requires some teamwork (prettry much: squad-based ramboing)
- resources can't be used for early buildings/upgrades/RTs
- Somewhat risky if the shotgun isn't in best hands in each squad
- requires the comm to give out ammo and medpacks to squads
- Wasted time due to armory-hopping (to get max shotgun ammo)
- alien rushing base will meet less resistance since all marines left (but then a marine could be left for base protection)
... more?

I'm not sure why this has not been tried before. Or if it has been tried, what were the problems that it isn't used anymore. Again, it's not a shotgun rush because the problem with shotgun rush is that the dropped shotguns are lost.
Please comment.

BOBDolol · January 2004

I really don't see that happening in a pub, but I've seen it done in scrims and matches. It works really well, a shotgun will take down alien rts in no time while the lmgers defend him.

Apocalypse · January 2004

The problem is that res is really tight in the early game. You need every little bit that you can to get a good start, so giving out a shotgun isn't the best thing to do. I usually don't drop a second IP, until I have laid down several RTs. You can argue that the shotguns would repay themselves by RFK, but you are forgetting a very important aspect of that arguement. What else could the res you used for shotguns be used for? Maybe you will have armor 1 sooner, vastly improving your troops lifespan netting you a lot of RFK. In addition, its very hard to keep people together as a group. For example, you have 3 people in a squad. 1 person hears a res tower being attack, he wanders off as the other two go to their waypoint. Then one of the two dies, leaving the other person alone. In a pub, you can almost certainly assume that something of that nature would occur. In a scrim/match, shotguns are very effective for dealing with fades, but its important to get upgrades quickly, so when fades do appear LMGs/Shotguns can dispose of fades.

afratnikov · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apocalypse @ Jan 3 2004, 01:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The problem is that res is really tight in the early game. You need every little bit that you can to get a good start, so giving out a shotgun isn't the best thing to do. I usually don't drop a second IP, until I have laid down several RTs.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>You can win not only by building your own good economy but also by screwing up your opponent's. The main idea behind giving out shotguns is to destroy alien RTs early in the game while not spending too much money. Remember: A dead gorge and a dead RT cost the aliens nearly as much as the 3 shotguns and the rambo-squads should be able to survive to kill several gorges and alien RTs.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apocalypse @ Jan 3 2004, 01:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What else could the res you used for shotguns be used for? Maybe you will have armor 1 sooner, vastly improving your troops lifespan netting you a lot of RFK.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>Hmmm... armor 1 does sound good. But it takes a lot of time since you'd have to build arms lab, then wait for the upgrade... You can look at the shotguns as a temporary weapon upgrade since skulks will die in 2 shotgun blasts instead of prolonged LMG fire. The shotguns shouldn't let the aliens even come close to biting range, too.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apocalypse @ Jan 3 2004, 01:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In addition, its very hard to keep people together as a group. For example, you have 3 people in a squad. 1 person hears a res tower being attack, he wanders off as the other two go to their waypoint. Then one of the two dies, leaving the other person alone.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>It's true that it won't always work for the marines to stick together, but you could make them work for you: "NSPlayer, do you want a shotgun? Well, go and follow [1337]Player and once he drops the shotgun you can pick it up." That should be enough of an incentive to work together. The commander will just have to supply the players with ammo since picked up weapons have no reserve ammo.

Necrosis · January 2004

The other thing is just to tell the players to stick together, perhaps even put them into proper squads.

If you do all you can as the comm, then there's less chance of the marines screwing up. Giving two people shotties and letting the entire team rambo off is largely the commanders fault for letting it happen.

LittleToe · January 2004

i just run off at the start and hide near a rez nod that is likely to be capped and wate. soon someone comes along and eggs. i let them and as soon as the rt is droped i jump them. kill the gorge, kill the unbuilt rt and then kill self as im out of ammo. respawn and join the team where ever.
minus 25rez for them and it cost the com nothing.

the real problem is just getting the "team" act like a team. i see the same thing nearly every game vet or jo dingus. waypoint is give and 5 are on there way (the rest run off) but on the way some break off and only 2 or 3 make it to the waypoint (as com i whish i could teather them together).

giveing sg early could work if only you can get a team that works as a team (but since they dont i hunt rts/gorges).

...

btw i prefer to get armor 1 and wepons 2 befor giveing sg's out.
only 1 shot point blank to kill and the riens stand up in a fight better.
less chance of wasting rez as 1 good marien can kill a fade at thouse levels (with a little help from the com).

Apocalypse · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (afratnikov @ Jan 3 2004, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apocalypse @ Jan 3 2004, 01:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The problem is that res is really tight in the early game. You need every little bit that you can to get a good start, so giving out a shotgun isn't the best thing to do. I usually don't drop a second IP, until I have laid down several RTs.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>You can win not only by building your own good economy but also by screwing up your opponent's. The main idea behind giving out shotguns is to destroy alien RTs early in the game while not spending too much money. Remember: A dead gorge and a dead RT cost the aliens nearly as much as the 3 shotguns and the rambo-squads should be able to survive to kill several gorges and alien RTs.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apocalypse @ Jan 3 2004, 01:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What else could the res you used for shotguns be used for? Maybe you will have armor 1 sooner, vastly improving your troops lifespan netting you a lot of RFK.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>Hmmm... armor 1 does sound good. But it takes a lot of time since you'd have to build arms lab, then wait for the upgrade... You can look at the shotguns as a temporary weapon upgrade since skulks will die in 2 shotgun blasts instead of prolonged LMG fire. The shotguns shouldn't let the aliens even come close to biting range, too.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apocalypse @ Jan 3 2004, 01:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In addition, its very hard to keep people together as a group. For example, you have 3 people in a squad. 1 person hears a res tower being attack, he wanders off as the other two go to their waypoint. Then one of the two dies, leaving the other person alone.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>It's true that it won't always work for the marines to stick together, but you could make them work for you: "NSPlayer, do you want a shotgun? Well, go and follow [1337]Player and once he drops the shotgun you can pick it up." That should be enough of an incentive to work together. The commander will just have to supply the players with ammo since picked up weapons have no reserve ammo.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The thing is that its either ups or shotguns in the beginning. I have found it much more effective to go with upgrades. It boosts the whole teams killing power instead of 2 or 3 players (Especially in larger games). I can spend 20 res to give my whole team an extra bite, or I could give 2 players shotguns. Seems to me like the extra bite is a way better deal. It isn't totally unthinkable that marines take down several RTs without shotguns. Its quite easy and safe to knife a node, when 1 person is guarding you, even with an lmg.

The real problem becomes the Fades at 4 minutes. It is just so important to have lvl 1 armor and lvl 1 weapons, with lvl 2 weapons in progress, when Fades appear. They present too much of a problem, even when aliens are backed into a corner. Ever see aliens win after marines control 6 nodes, while aliens control 1? I have.

There are other problems with the plan too. Generally when you group good players with newer players, they don't fight as well. Why you ask? It's simple. The newer player presents more problems than he solves. He generally gets in the way of shots, and attacks before he should, or makes his presense known when he shouldn't.

In my comming experience, I find that the job gets done fine with fast ups and meds. I generally don't pass out shotties until the first fade appears, or if the team is doing really well, and we are in the hive. For example, on ns_lost, we pressured the hive early, and it just so happened that the whole team made it alive to Cargo hive. I built an armory in the hive, dropped shotties and we killed the hive.

Finally, I think the shotguns only provide a temporary tempo swing, while the upgrades are always there and help the whole team. I tend to rely on my whole team rather than a couple "1337" players. I find that even average players are able to do amazing things, if you get them ups and keep them alive.

afratnikov · January 2004

Thanks for the replies <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LittleToe @ Jan 3 2004, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>i just run off at the start and hide near a rez nod that is likely to be capped and wait. Soon someone comes along and eggs. i let them and as soon as the rt is dropped i jump them. kill the gorge, kill the unbuilt rt and then kill self as im out of ammo. Respawn and join the team where ever.
minus 25rez for them and it cost the com nothing.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> Hehe <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> great way to screw up the aliens. Unfortunately the comms won't reward you with a shotty for that <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Apocalypse, you're right about giving marines upgrades instead of weapon in large games. Maybe the early shotguns would work in smaller games such as 6vs6. I'd still like commanders to try giving out a couple of shotguns and have the team save them for the whole game. Just like upgrades, the shotguns <i>could</i> become a long-term investment. For some reason, however, they always get lost <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Buggy · January 2004

well, giving early lvl0 shotgun really wouldnt matter much i think....imo, a shotty really isnt that great unless at least lvl2

Lost3 · January 2004

I've seen shotty rushes and general shotgun usage go both ways. Either the incredible and sudden alien decimation and the complete waste of rez on incompitent blind marines. However, I really think that seeing the average marine, shotguns early on will win or bust them aliens up good. Of course usage may vary according to the quality of your troops and such. However, I often seen marines destroying the alien 1st hive in no time flat with a shotgun rush. But... this makes for a poor game.

BattleTech · January 2004

Giving out one shotgun will cause 20 other people to simply beg for one.

r3dsk4r3 · January 2004

my opinion is only do this if you're sure it will work. 30 res could net you 2 res towers, or some research. but if it works, it works well.

i did this in a game recently, right off the bat myself and 2 other players went around killing off alien rt's and then placing our own.

before you knew it we had 6 res towers, and the aliens only had the one in their hive. this gives the rines the extra boost that they need to counter the aliens mobility early game. killing an rt takes about 2 tubes, and 20 seconds or so. by the time the aliens respond you're already on your way out, headed to another rt.

definitely a good strat if you can pull it off. killing one or two res won't cut it.

Apocalypse · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (r3dsk4r3 @ Jan 4 2004, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> my opinion is only do this if you're sure it will work. 30 res could net you 2 res towers, or some research. but if it works, it works well.

i did this in a game recently, right off the bat myself and 2 other players went around killing off alien rt's and then placing our own.

before you knew it we had 6 res towers, and the aliens only had the one in their hive. this gives the rines the extra boost that they need to counter the aliens mobility early game. killing an rt takes about 2 tubes, and 20 seconds or so. by the time the aliens respond you're already on your way out, headed to another rt.

definitely a good strat if you can pull it off. killing one or two res won't cut it.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Meh, that happens in a normal game that I comm without passing shotguns out. Recently I played a game on ns_veil, where we totally dominated (my fastest victory 5:30). It was 9v1 res-wise at the end of the game. The aliens were decent players and they did drop 4 nodes, but they were quickly killed. Shotties are pretty much a waste unless you get armor lvl 1. Even the best players get hit by skulks and are surprised.

Early Shotguns

Comments