The worst part about turtling is the fact that suicide rushes are the only way to kill anything for the aliens and the fact that you need to get killed just to get somewhere means rines get RFK for it.
Remove rine RFK and then rines dont get the res boost. This would also make aliens less afraid of dieing because they will know they can rush in and the rines wont get the res to make weapons of doom.
At the moment its a choice of: do i rush, get minimal results and give rines RFK... or do i wait and not give them RFK but they have 1 node so they will achieve the same thing anyway just take longer?
If RFK was taken away suicide rushes wouldnt be a rine benefit and what little they achieve will go against the rines.
Didn't they try no marine RFK in 1.1/2.0 development? I seem to remember one of them having that; from the feedback, though, it seemed as if it created too much of a gap in res income.
Of course, that was before the 2.01 betas, and all the price reduction for 'rine structures, right? That might make it less crippling for marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--Align+Jan 6 2004, 05:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jan 6 2004, 05:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...Or better, umbra lerks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> YES! See, this is exactly what we don't see enough, and would yet help immensly in breaking up Marine turtles. 2 lerks could easily cover most positions, and even toss the occasional spore cloud in to weaken things ferther.
A well co-ordinated attack might have 5 Oni, 2 gorges, a lerk, and 2 fades. Typically, the marines would work on the Oni, but the split would render that ineffective, while the gorges heal them, and the fades cut them up. The Umbra would be concentraited on protecting the fades, unless the marines fell for the Onos bait (In which case, they would be keeping the onos alive along side the gorges). Anything that remains would act as an ankle biter, breaking down the respawn portals (and anything that pops out), while the onos attack buildings. In all likelyhood, one or two Oni would go down, but the Fades would quickly overwhelm any survivers. If the marines were even closer, the Onos could try to devour half the team right off the bat.
Every single star in the universe would spell out an endless number of obsenities before that happened. But if it did, I would kick my **** hard for not grabbing that demo.
<!--QuoteBegin--InquisitiveIdiot+Jan 5 2004, 01:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (InquisitiveIdiot @ Jan 5 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems that lately it has become fashionable to champion the idea that if the kharaa fail to destroy the marines within 10 minutes, they deserve to lose the game. This is put forward as balance: that aliens should be forced to attack constantly if they are to have any hope of victory, while marines should merely survive long enough to get a full team of heavies, then proceed with the ownage. Veterans say this. People who should have played long enough to know better.
Needless to say, I disagree.
The outcome of a properly balanced game should ALWAYS have a chance of a turnaround. At any point in the game if the team that's currently in the lead slacks off the underdog should have a chance to come out on top. A properly balanced game should not be one where one team will inevitably bunker down and the other will inevitably be forced to break the siege or die trying. If marine turtling is a valid tactic, balance is only reached if the aliens can tech as well to counter them.
Or, if you all MUST have an aggressive/defensive relationship, the one currently in place is bass-ackwards. The kharaa are infesting a station/outpost/whatever, and the marines are a hardcore assault team sent to clean the place out. If anything, it's the aliens that should have an advantage if the game goes long, as their infestation becomes more permanent and the marines' situation more hopeless.
At any rate, the current theory is both horribly wrong in terms of game balance and completely nonsensical in terms of the backstory. That's all I wanted to say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh?
Aliens are more than powerful enough to wreck marines in 2.01 with 3 hives, and even 2 hives can do it.
I've never been unable to break a marine base. It's terribly easy with some proper alien teamwork if you ask me.
With a good comm, and good marines, even the best aliens can't defeat them. Its sad but true. I was just playing on caged, and we got the snot beat out of us b/c of it, before we had out 3rd rt up, they were already in one of our hives bunkering it down. We had a very good alien team too; it just seemed it wasn't enough. In order to get enough rez to win the game, a good many <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> have to go <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> and that slows down the advancement. Plus, <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->, unless on a smaller team, don't get enough rez to be worth while, unless they go ape **** on the marines as <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->. But by that time, the said good marine force w/ good comm would have at least level 1 pistol/armor skulks don't do much damage.
I want OC's to give weapon increase, but only after like..5 or 10 have gone up...that would be hard core.
plus, I think DC's should be used almost like inf spawn portals, at least w/ 1 or 2 hives, b/c if a marine team shottie rushes, the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> don't have a chance, nor does the hive.
now on the marine side. if the marines don't get at least 3 rt's up in 3 minutes of the game starting, they're screwed due to the monster amounts of rt's an entire force of gorges can place down. Also, if a marine team gets a bad comm at the start, and he waists the res on crappy things like 2 tf's at base w/ 15 turret guns, they'll die in a mater of minutes
The whole aspect of this game which intrigues me is the strategy aspect, if I wanted to play CS w/ alien skins....I would
I kind of miss the days when the marines HAD to hold at least one hive if they wanted to win. Now it tends to be more of a "ok guys, we're relocating to the double res, that way if we turtle up, we are guaranteed two res towers." Personally I think a way to balance the game a bit would be to get rid of double resource node locations. Unfortunately, testing this theory would require changing most of the maps. At the very least I wish they would move the double res location in that one map where the marines can seige it from their starting location.
<!--QuoteBegin--InquisitiveIdiot+Jan 5 2004, 01:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (InquisitiveIdiot @ Jan 5 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems that lately it has become fashionable to champion the idea that if the kharaa fail to destroy the marines within 10 minutes, they deserve to lose the game. This is put forward as balance: that aliens should be forced to attack constantly if they are to have any hope of victory, while marines should merely survive long enough to get a full team of heavies, then proceed with the ownage. Veterans say this. People who should have played long enough to know better.
Needless to say, I disagree.
The outcome of a properly balanced game should ALWAYS have a chance of a turnaround. At any point in the game if the team that's currently in the lead slacks off the underdog should have a chance to come out on top. A properly balanced game should not be one where one team will inevitably bunker down and the other will inevitably be forced to break the siege or die trying. If marine turtling is a valid tactic, balance is only reached if the aliens can tech as well to counter them.
Or, if you all MUST have an aggressive/defensive relationship, the one currently in place is bass-ackwards. The kharaa are infesting a station/outpost/whatever, and the marines are a hardcore assault team sent to clean the place out. If anything, it's the aliens that should have an advantage if the game goes long, as their infestation becomes more permanent and the marines' situation more hopeless.
At any rate, the current theory is both horribly wrong in terms of game balance and completely nonsensical in terms of the backstory. That's all I wanted to say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you 100%. I have been in so many insane games where the aliens have been beat down to a bloody pulp, but they come back with sheer skill and teamwork and overrun the Marines, eventually pushing them back and start to gain momentum. Soon enough, you have a few onos devouring heavies.
<!--QuoteBegin--Snidely+Jan 6 2004, 08:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jan 6 2004, 08:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Didn't they try no marine RFK in 1.1/2.0 development? I seem to remember one of them having that; from the feedback, though, it seemed as if it created too much of a gap in res income.
Of course, that was before the 2.01 betas, and all the price reduction for 'rine structures, right? That might make it less crippling for marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeh but to remove RFK you would have to adjust resource gain from RT's to make it a bit faster (not a massive boost but just enough to compensate). This would balance in the fact that skulks etc would be less hesitant in suicide rushes and therefore more resource losses for the commander with aliens managing to kill more buildings.
Comments
Remove rine RFK and then rines dont get the res boost. This would also make aliens less afraid of dieing because they will know they can rush in and the rines wont get the res to make weapons of doom.
At the moment its a choice of: do i rush, get minimal results and give rines RFK... or do i wait and not give them RFK but they have 1 node so they will achieve the same thing anyway just take longer?
If RFK was taken away suicide rushes wouldnt be a rine benefit and what little they achieve will go against the rines.
- RD
Of course, that was before the 2.01 betas, and all the price reduction for 'rine structures, right? That might make it less crippling for marines.
YES! See, this is exactly what we don't see enough, and would yet help immensly in breaking up Marine turtles. 2 lerks could easily cover most positions, and even toss the occasional spore cloud in to weaken things ferther.
A well co-ordinated attack might have 5 Oni, 2 gorges, a lerk, and 2 fades. Typically, the marines would work on the Oni, but the split would render that ineffective, while the gorges heal them, and the fades cut them up. The Umbra would be concentraited on protecting the fades, unless the marines fell for the Onos bait (In which case, they would be keeping the onos alive along side the gorges). Anything that remains would act as an ankle biter, breaking down the respawn portals (and anything that pops out), while the onos attack buildings. In all likelyhood, one or two Oni would go down, but the Fades would quickly overwhelm any survivers. If the marines were even closer, the Onos could try to devour half the team right off the bat.
Every single star in the universe would spell out an endless number of obsenities before that happened. But if it did, I would kick my **** hard for not grabbing that demo.
Needless to say, I disagree.
The outcome of a properly balanced game should ALWAYS have a chance of a turnaround. At any point in the game if the team that's currently in the lead slacks off the underdog should have a chance to come out on top. A properly balanced game should not be one where one team will inevitably bunker down and the other will inevitably be forced to break the siege or die trying. If marine turtling is a valid tactic, balance is only reached if the aliens can tech as well to counter them.
Or, if you all MUST have an aggressive/defensive relationship, the one currently in place is bass-ackwards. The kharaa are infesting a station/outpost/whatever, and the marines are a hardcore assault team sent to clean the place out. If anything, it's the aliens that should have an advantage if the game goes long, as their infestation becomes more permanent and the marines' situation more hopeless.
At any rate, the current theory is both horribly wrong in terms of game balance and completely nonsensical in terms of the backstory. That's all I wanted to say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh?
Aliens are more than powerful enough to wreck marines in 2.01 with 3 hives, and even 2 hives can do it.
I've never been unable to break a marine base. It's terribly easy with some proper alien teamwork if you ask me.
I want OC's to give weapon increase, but only after like..5 or 10 have gone up...that would be hard core.
plus, I think DC's should be used almost like inf spawn portals, at least w/ 1 or 2 hives, b/c if a marine team shottie rushes, the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> don't have a chance, nor does the hive.
now on the marine side. if the marines don't get at least 3 rt's up in 3 minutes of the game starting, they're screwed due to the monster amounts of rt's an entire force of gorges can place down. Also, if a marine team gets a bad comm at the start, and he waists the res on crappy things like 2 tf's at base w/ 15 turret guns, they'll die in a mater of minutes
The whole aspect of this game which intrigues me is the strategy aspect, if I wanted to play CS w/ alien skins....I would
Needless to say, I disagree.
The outcome of a properly balanced game should ALWAYS have a chance of a turnaround. At any point in the game if the team that's currently in the lead slacks off the underdog should have a chance to come out on top. A properly balanced game should not be one where one team will inevitably bunker down and the other will inevitably be forced to break the siege or die trying. If marine turtling is a valid tactic, balance is only reached if the aliens can tech as well to counter them.
Or, if you all MUST have an aggressive/defensive relationship, the one currently in place is bass-ackwards. The kharaa are infesting a station/outpost/whatever, and the marines are a hardcore assault team sent to clean the place out. If anything, it's the aliens that should have an advantage if the game goes long, as their infestation becomes more permanent and the marines' situation more hopeless.
At any rate, the current theory is both horribly wrong in terms of game balance and completely nonsensical in terms of the backstory. That's all I wanted to say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you 100%. I have been in so many insane games where the aliens have been beat down to a bloody pulp, but they come back with sheer skill and teamwork and overrun the Marines, eventually pushing them back and start to gain momentum. Soon enough, you have a few onos devouring heavies.
Of course, that was before the 2.01 betas, and all the price reduction for 'rine structures, right? That might make it less crippling for marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh but to remove RFK you would have to adjust resource gain from RT's to make it a bit faster (not a massive boost but just enough to compensate). This would balance in the fact that skulks etc would be less hesitant in suicide rushes and therefore more resource losses for the commander with aliens managing to kill more buildings.
- RD