New Zealand To Castrate Pedophiles
Necro
<insert non-birthday-related title here> Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1118Members
<insert non-birthday-related title here> Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1118Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">thats the way!</div> don't got a link, it was in the local newspaper but anyone else think this is a good a good idea <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
My opinion, castrating sex offenders isnt cool. That opinion was almost purely shaped by an article that I read on the effects of castration on males. It wasnt nice.
The Hebrews used to castrate certain life slaves, and put them in charge of their women. This was actually done for two reasons. One is pretty obvious, I'll let you figure that one out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The other one was that when these men were castrated, they lost their drive. For anything. No goals, no aspirations, just nothing. They wouldnt steal because they had no urge to, they did as they were told because they had no urge for freedom, to better themselves - no urge for anything.
I think Freud came up with the idea that everything humans do is sexually motivated, and while I've seen his idea torn to shreds before, I think that its a huge part of you. Its not just your sex drive, its part of what makes you male and human. I disagree strongly, and on that note am off to google to research the effects of castration on the human male.
EDIT
No, I am not researching the effects of castration on the human male, having had more run-ins with twisted g4y pr0n sites than any human should have to be exposed to.
My opinion, castrating sex offenders isnt cool. That opinion was almost purely shaped by an article that I read on the effects of castration on males. It wasnt nice.
The Hebrews [snip] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not completely.
Eunuchs are males castrated after puberty. The sort of eunuch harem guards you talk about would have had their testes (and usually ****) removed after puberty. The uretha(sp?) had to be kept open until the amputation wound had healed. Commonly a silver tube was used. If the Eunuch survived, they would be more subdued, but not totally zombified.
Castrati were in existence up unti the early part of the 20th century I belive, young boys had their testes removed before puberty. They lived full and healthy lives (calcium problems aside) and often became famous singers.
As for the castration of paedophiles/rapists I'm honestly in 2 minds. Research has shown there is a 0% success rate at <i>curing</i> sex offenders, but that some can be reentered into society. (*note to MonsE* I tried to find statistics on this - it was a Beeb doumentary I saw it on - but trying to find a site to back it up gets lots of hits from porn sites, so I'll stop that...
.......
.....*bookmarks*....).
Ok, just for arguments sake, and lets see how far it goes, what arguments can you have against castrating paedophiles? Given that they have been found guilty by 12 good men and true, and that research I saw showed a 0% chance of curing them, why not take away their ability to offend? Its obvious what they lose, but what does society lose? A threat to children only. In fact it <i>gains</i> someone more productive.
They've abused a privilege in the worst possible way, and had it removed. It frees up space in prisons, its a rehabilitation (of a sort) and the innocent have nothing to fear. The same applies for rapists etc.
I'm not going to go all eugenics on you and start banging on about removal of the poor impluse control gene etc. I'm also not looking for "Well you may as well cut off a man's hands for stealing!" type stuff, what I'm after are aguments <b>against castration</b>.
If it's a deterrant then I'm not entirely sure it will work; pedophiles if they're caught these days face big jail terms where they WILL get brutally raped and beaten just about every day. As a solution it seems a little extreme and rather pointless; yes, the man probably won't do it again, but that's a great consolation for the kids he molestered prior to the castration. Plus what should we do to female pedophiles? (and yes, they do exist) Can you even "castrate" a female? Aegeri you're the biology guy, help us out here.
I believe that it's a fairly brutal and pointless punishment to inflict.
Although physical harm is inflicted by pedophiles, the most harmful damage is in fact mental.
Therefore, the most effective punishment is mental punishment, not physical punishment.
Essentially, use forms of conditioning to make them feel violently ill whenever they have that urge to go out and be a pedophile. Bring em in every five years to make sure the conditioning has held up and if necessary reinforce it.
If he reoffends, lock him up and throw away the key.
RIGHT! THAT'S IT DISCUSSION OVER, MOVE ALONG PLEASE! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Although physical harm is inflicted by pedophiles, the most harmful damage is in fact mental. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Therefore, the most effective punishment is mental punishment, not physical punishment. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Possibly, but is punishment the best solution for a tendancy that has no cure? Isn't it better to prevent any further offence?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Essentially, use forms of conditioning to make them feel violently ill whenever they have that urge to go out and be a pedophile. Bring em in every five years to make sure the conditioning has held up and if necessary reinforce it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its a nice idea, but I don't think it would work, addicts regularly overcome strong drug-assisted conditioning. For an example, see George Best.....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If he reoffends, lock him up and throw away the key. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Essentially no change then?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you believe that it will have no side effects? No unfortunate rage incidents where a castrated man takes his revenge in some suicide bombing or murdering the people he thinks responsible for dehumanizing him completely?
Pedophiles lack a self control that is caused by psychological trauma AFAIK. You can cure it I am sure of it. But I don't think anyone has really tried very hard, since pedophiles are casteless pigs we all would rather kick and hurt than help. Do you think a woman would marry a man that has a pedophily conviction behind him? Even if he is certifiably cured?
Sounds like a plan, but you don't see too many murderers use their **** and testicles as the murder weapon
Here's some info linked from this page: <a href='http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/crimes_y.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/crimes_y.htm</a> , but I'm still trying to find more. We're all pretty much arguing blind right now without any medical or recidivism data...
edit: added in a very important 'not' <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://texnews.com/texas97/ouch050897.html' target='_blank'>http://texnews.com/texas97/ouch050897.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bivins drafted his bill after reviewing European studies showing that child molesters who are surgically castrated have a small rate of recidivism, about 2 percent to 3 percent.
Surgical castration has been used in countries like Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Germany, although Denmark has switched to chemical castration.
Cappelletty said the European studies involved a group known as preferential pedophiles, who make up a small percentage of the pedophile population.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Discounting the inherant flaws in the jury system, that's a good arguement. If any of you ever find yourself accused of something unpleasant (hopefully a wrongful accusation) I'd recommend requesting a grand jury (panel of judges, not bumpkins).
edit: oooh, here's a recent one from the news of the wierd:
In November, a jury in Montgomery, Ala., ordered Exxon Mobil to pay the state $11.8 billion in punitive damages based on its conclusion that the company, having allegedly inflated its expenses, underpaid the state $63.6 million in natural gas royalties (a penalty of more than 18 times the state's alleged loss). Exxon Mobil said its expenses were legitimate, that it owed the state nothing, and that it would appeal. One juror said afterward that the fact that the Alabama government is in such dire financial straits and needs the money might have influenced his vote (though that was not legally proper). [San Francisco Chronicle-AP, 11-14-03]
And yes, dread, we treat our prisoners better than pretty much anyone else. Free cable TV, free premium healthcare (even for those on death row), nice gym facilties, etc.
Wow, we castrate our pedophiles? Hell, I didn't know that. Or does it mean that we use surgery for castration but we don't actually do it? Wth, one would think I would have heard about that till now. And it seems a bit far fetched in a country where you can get off the hook for raping on the basis of "I've been working for 30 years and my work career would be interrupted if you put me in jail." And off to parole he goes.
And you yanks think you treat your criminals too well <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ryo brings up a good point about woman offenders. If, however, New Zealand is anything like the US there is a double standard. If I remember it right, the teacher(woman) who slept with a 12 year old was only given like 2 years. If it were a man, he would have gotten soo much more time.
<a href='http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Articles.asp?Article=71442&Sn=WORL' target='_blank'>Gulf Daily News</a>
<a href='http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,247895-1-8,00.html' target='_blank'>Nzoom - One News</a>
The first article makes some interesting, but brief, points about the possible problem of side effects and the medical professions ethical issues.
I'd expect the other major news pages will get some infomation on it sooner or later.
Although physical harm is inflicted by pedophiles, the most harmful damage is in fact mental.
Therefore, the most effective punishment is mental punishment, not physical punishment.
Essentially, use forms of conditioning to make them feel violently ill whenever they have that urge to go out and be a pedophile. Bring em in every five years to make sure the conditioning has held up and if necessary reinforce it.
If he reoffends, lock him up and throw away the key. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever read A Clockwork Orange? If you haven't, do it now. Just that mental conditioning happens. It isn't pretty.
Ryo brings up a good point about woman offenders. If, however, New Zealand is anything like the US there is a double standard. If I remember it right, the teacher(woman) who slept with a 12 year old was only given like 2 years. If it were a man, he would have gotten soo much more time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I have yet to hear of a female pedophile. Just because the teacher slept with a 12 year old doesnt mean she has a consuming attraction to underaged
Ryo brings up a good point about woman offenders. If, however, New Zealand is anything like the US there is a double standard. If I remember it right, the teacher(woman) who slept with a 12 year old was only given like 2 years. If it were a man, he would have gotten soo much more time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you think that's bad, in the state of Pennsylvania it is not legally possible for a man to get raped. Rape is defined as penetration of the vag1na.
Additionally, in Pennsylvania, if a woman is too drunk to legally drive, she can claim that any sexual involvement is rape, regardless of whether she consented at the time.
Edit: btw, why on earth is vag1na in the swear filter? I have never seen it used other than in the medical sense in my entire life.
I suppose that could be the case for many of the men that we label pedophiles too <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
As of now People on D block are screaming "NO MEANS NO! NO MEANS NO!"
I did not know that about Pennsylvania rape. I hope I don't get raped. My uncle is a State Representitive. I'll bring it up with him.
Here is my view of the world. You take one persons right, you get one of your personal rights taken away. Simple.
People who rape in NZ will think twice when they are stareing at a stub.
Probably to prevent reoffending, or at least make it more difficult. It would remove their sex drive quite considerably.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Plus what should we do to female pedophiles? (and yes, they do exist) Can you even "castrate" a female? Aegeri you're the biology guy, help us out here. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm I suppose they could do a similar thing to female circumcision and remove bits and pieces like the clitoris. It would be considerably more difficult to deal with a female in this case, but the majority of pedophiles (that people notice anyway) are male. It would be interesting to try anyway, and possibly using female circumcision would work (which narrows the **** and makes sex painful and less pleasurable- I'm not really going into elaborate detail though, I think it's a barbaric practice).
What I would be interested in is if women could accuse males of raping them, and hence have their bits removed as an act of revenge. It certainly wouldn't be hard to do, women can make up just about anything so long as they can get a friend to back them up. I know several men who were thrown in prison as rapists because their girlfriends did this to them. Now if the law was expanded to rapists as well it could certainly be very interesting. Ahh thank God the woman I'm with has been my friend for 12 years now (Since primary school in fact).
Good times.
This isn't to say I disagree with neutering rapists and pedophiles, I'd do worse to them than just castrate the **** if I made the laws, but I understand that the consequences for an innocent man being convicted just went through the roof. I can only imagine what that Dunedin dude would of done, if that stupid woman who accused him wrongfully of rape had him castrated as well as convicted. Or that guy who got convicted of pedophillia, and was later cleared when it was discovered the children involved had been convinced to lie.
Hmmm certainly makes things more sticky. I'd say to keep it to reoffenders, the first time they get prison, the second time they get prison AND neutered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I remember it right, the teacher(woman) who slept with a 12 year old was only given like 2 years. If it were a man, he would have gotten soo much more time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're god damn right there is a double standard. That is for another thread though. Thinking about it however, I'm nearly bitter enough to make it too. I'm sickened by family court laws in particular.